Artillery: News & Discussion

ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 11 Apr 2018 20:07

Since Sardar Baldev Singh the first Raksha Mantri (RM), Indian defence ministers were really Ministers for Disarmament except for three wartime RM; Y.B. Chavan, Jagjivan Ram and George Fernandes.

Nirmala Sitaraman joins the ranks of those three illustrious leaders.
She is now the fourth greatest RM for India.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Apr 2018 21:52

ramana wrote:Sine Sardar Baldev Singh the first RM, Indian defence ministers were really Ministers for Disarmament except for three wartime RM; Y.B. Chavan, Jagjivan Ram and George Fernandes.

Nirmala Sitaraman joins the ranks of those three illustrious leaders.
She is now the fourth greatest RM for India.


OT but why not MP, he was the one who saved Tejas and rooted for the artillery

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shaun » 11 Apr 2018 22:09

another pic of mounted dhanush
Image
Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 12 Apr 2018 04:10

Dhanush is a 155 mm/45 caliber gun, so how come that image of the Dhanush MGS mentions it as being a 155 mm/52 cal. gun? Did they increase the caliber of the Dhanush for the MGS? Or it is a typo?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Cybaru » 12 Apr 2018 04:17

That thing looks huge and mean! Year of the Dog is the Year of the artillery! It's possible that we are looking at 155/52 cal setup.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Apr 2018 04:39

Nam, OFB has no budget for R&D. It does what it is told.
The baby steps were spare barrels for Bofors.
Then DG Artillery tasked them with Dhanush.
BTW they won a contract to upgrade 130mm to 45 caliber. It's called Sarang.

I still am not sure why those muzzle strikes happened. Need a plausible explanation from the system.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Apr 2018 04:40

Cybaru wrote:That thing looks huge and mean! Year of the Dog is the Year of the artillery! It's possible that we are looking at 155/52 cal setup.


Yes. MGS is supposed to be 52 cal.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Apr 2018 04:49

DefExpo2018 from kakarat

viewtopic.php?p=2265316#p2265316

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 12 Apr 2018 10:59

nam wrote:You have a fair point, however I think OFB deserves the bad press here. They held nation's defense under siege, for all they are bothered about is overtime pay. Service men have lost their lives because of OFB's negligence.

Forget Dhanush, they have been building IFG for donkey's years. Yet they did not bother to create a bare bones 155 MM version of the gun. For all the TFTA, the Chinese primary gun in Tibet is a bare bones 155MM!

Now their back side is on fire due to fear of loosing contracts, they seem to taking initiatives. The fact that they have charging double to four time the market rate for product sold to forces, I am sure they could get some consultant to design a sensible prototype.


Am sorry but how exactly you think you can objectively analyze any system base on technicalities with such prejudice..? Without objectivity things quickly move to being only rhetoric. Make no mistake in understanding that OFB, DPSUs are mere pawns in the game. They have been kept deliberately under the thumbs. They are subjected to exact kind of environment and treatment from almighty babudom that the Forces are given. They need freedom from babudom and reforms not be written off. They hold capabilities which are key for national defense in short term. To be fair to OFB, they have been trying to make Dhanush for quite a while, since 2000 or so, IIRC the initiative has started in bits and pieces. But the real boost was only when IA took proactive interest.

nam wrote:Given our requirement in mountains, I would very curious to know how well the truck can travel through the gradients with 7-9 ton on it's back, without flipping over.


Now that's a valid comment, without rhetoric.


On a side note, until about an year ago, I thought OFBs have literally no chance of reforms and best way forward is to sell them. But looking at their proactivity in recent time, especially in Artillery and small arms side, I feel may be there is still hope with right kind of impetus from the top. After all the whole damn scene at the top has changed largely due to one man as of now. Who knows, with sustained Dharmic rule at the top for long enough time may give wings to even OFBs, given some danda and free hand from top.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 12 Apr 2018 11:17

Kakarat wrote:An Important exibit at DefExpo2018 the Mounted Gun System a joint product of OFB and BEML. Its basically 155mm 52cal Dhanush mounted on a BEML Tatra and according to the officials it is heading to trials within the next couple of months

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 2538476545

Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 12 Apr 2018 11:33

Kartik wrote:Dhanush is a 155 mm/45 caliber gun, so how come that image of the Dhanush MGS mentions it as being a 155 mm/52 cal. gun? Did they increase the caliber of the Dhanush for the MGS? Or it is a typo?


From my discussion with the OFB person incharge of MGS, the 155mm 52cal gun has been tested and there are two versions od Dhanush. the 52cal is a upgrade of the 45cal which was in work for sometime now and even the Dhanush 52cal will also head for trials soon

The officials of both OFB and BEML are not calling it as Dhanush MGS but 155mm 52cal MGS

In my presence a forginer approched and asked if it was a mounted bofors the OFB official immediatly said no its a indiginous gun with more thn 80% indian content which is similar to bofors but highly modfied and upgraded

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 12 Apr 2018 14:04

The much awited Kalyani 155mm 39 CAL Ultra Light Howitzer (ULH)
https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 6522272768

Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 12 Apr 2018 14:30

Kakarat wrote:The much awited Kalyani 155mm 39 CAL Ultra Light Howitzer (ULH)
https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 6522272768

]


Looks good.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 12 Apr 2018 14:43

Kakarat wrote:
Kartik wrote:Dhanush is a 155 mm/45 caliber gun, so how come that image of the Dhanush MGS mentions it as being a 155 mm/52 cal. gun? Did they increase the caliber of the Dhanush for the MGS? Or it is a typo?


From my discussion with the OFB person incharge of MGS, the 155mm 52cal gun has been tested and there are two versions od Dhanush. the 52cal is a upgrade of the 45cal which was in work for sometime now and even the Dhanush 52cal will also head for trials soon

The officials of both OFB and BEML are not calling it as Dhanush MGS but 155mm 52cal MGS

In my presence a forginer approched and asked if it was a mounted bofors the OFB official immediatly said no its a indiginous gun with more thn 80% indian content which is similar to bofors but highly modfied and upgraded


We have seen news about 52cal Dhanush previously 2-3times at least. It must have been posted here also. It was also mentioned somewhere that 52cal version is up for testing.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JayS » 12 Apr 2018 14:46

Kakarat wrote:The much awited Kalyani 155mm 39 CAL Ultra Light Howitzer (ULH)
https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 6522272768

Image


how does it compare with M777 in weight..? The Ti version..? And in terms of cost..?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 12 Apr 2018 14:51

JayS wrote:
Am sorry but how exactly you think you can objectively analyze any system base on technicalities with such prejudice..? Without objectivity things quickly move to being only rhetoric. Make no mistake in understanding that OFB, DPSUs are mere pawns in the game. They have been kept deliberately under the thumbs. They are subjected to exact kind of environment and treatment from almighty babudom that the Forces are given. They need freedom from babudom and reforms not be written off. They hold capabilities which are key for national defense in short term. To be fair to OFB, they have been trying to make Dhanush for quite a while, since 2000 or so, IIRC the initiative has started in bits and pieces. But the real boost was only when IA took proactive interest.


My view is Sab mile hai. OFB is definitely a pawn for MoD babus, however the employees are not innocent though. They go on strike at the drop of a hat. The union boss was lying on the face when he said OFB is "non-profit" and for the welfare of the country. OFB was charging 3-4 times for items they buy from the market and sell it to the forces. Obviously some of the providers would be relatives of the employees.

I would give them some slack on the day they hit their production targets.


Now that's a valid comment, without rhetoric.


Pakis drop the idea of producing Turkish towed artillery. The reason given was it is heavy. Then I figured out that the beggars don't have money to replace the existing trucks, which is required to tow the new gun. Their old trucks cannot. Moreover in the mountains towing them up hill requires powerful trucks.

So IA will similar issue. We are using new AL trucks. however it will still be an issue in the mountains. But we now have a solution.

BF has brought out MGS version of their ULWH. We have 155 MM/39 cal MGS with soft recoil, right here ! This is mentioned by Kakarat above.

Image

This is innovation. BF can easily create a 52 cal weapon mounted on a proper truck. Solves our "weight" problem.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 Apr 2018 21:24

with the kind of product line we have, we could be in list of top arty exporters by mid-end of arty guns. The problem is who needs arty apart from beggar porkies. Unless of course we cut the P5 in costs

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 12 Apr 2018 21:53

tsarkar wrote:
ramana wrote:tsarkar, The Dhanush has 360 traverse. Recall the fake Chinese made Swiss bearings. Now they get them from the OEM used on the Bofors. They provide the traverse.

Most howitzers, including FH-77B dont have 360 degree traverse.

https://www.forecastinternational.com/a ... RC_ID=1455
30°left/30°right







Bofors and Sweden were a bunch of losers. By 1986, the F104 contract issues that led to fall of Tanaka govt. in Japan were well known.
They managed to screw up a cash cow product by giving a measly low bribe!!!

Now OFB & DRDO can design their own gun-howitzers and thanks to the rigorous testing by IA this process is quite robust as can be seen by the Dhanush, Sarang and ATAGs.

Thanks for the pdf for now I understand the Zelar multipurpose fuze.
Again by putting high acceleration requirement they managed to ensure no compatibility with NATO ammo at low charge.

Wonder how the Reschef/BEL and ECIL fuzes work.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 12 Apr 2018 22:03

nam wrote:Given our requirement in mountains, I would very curious to know how well the truck can travel through the gradients with 7-9 ton on it's back, without flipping over.

This could be added to BR's "engineering from 2D images" section as an appendix to our planned "aerodynamics from 2D images" booklet that was suggested on the Tejas thread.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Apr 2018 12:34


hnair
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby hnair » 13 Apr 2018 13:03

^^^^ That Beast seems fully ready to point an accusing finger and bring molecular level changes down range!!

First time, am seeing the full view of Team Tata's ATAGs so clearly.... very cool 8)
(Republic Day ones does not get good angles to see the full form of the APU part nor the whole bells n whistles)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prasad » 13 Apr 2018 16:37

All these discussions n headaches aside. They've got an ATAGS at the Hall 8 which you can see as soon as you enter. The sheer massive size of the system hits you right in the face quite frankly. That thing is massive up close. Dick waving might be classified as schoolboy stuff by shiv saar but when you've got a long long gun yourself, it feels bloody good.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pankajs » 13 Apr 2018 17:41


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby pankajs » 13 Apr 2018 17:50

JayS wrote:
Kakarat wrote:The much awited Kalyani 155mm 39 CAL Ultra Light Howitzer (ULH)


how does it compare with M777 in weight..? The Ti version..? And in terms of cost..?

In the previous video, Baba Kalyani talks of a Titanium and a steel version with a weight of 4.5 and 5.5 tons respectively. Wiki lists M777 weight at 4.2 tons. Seems pretty good for a first time effort.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Pratyush » 13 Apr 2018 18:01

The atags APU generates 95kw from reports and is capable of moving the gun at a top speed of 12 kph. Which is 5 kph more than fh77b.

An improvement over every other parameter from Fh 77b.

Please select a winner and place the order.

The more I look at the gun traverse mechanism on the carriage. The more confident I become that we have the building block for a turreted SPH. As both the gun and the mount can be transposed on the SPH.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kartik » 13 Apr 2018 23:59

From Livefist twitter

OFB 155mm/52 cal MBS

Can see the OFB 155mm/52cal MBS with the gun on the ground. There are hydraulically operated rakes that are used to support the system when it is to be placed on the ground. The mechanism for rotating the gun is also visible. As for questions about the truck tipping over when the gun is pointed 90 degrees to the truck, if that could happen then stabilizing supports that are hydraulically operated could be placed at the sides of the truck.

Does not seem to be as much of a hack job as what some other posters were stating earlier.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Apr 2018 01:37

Image
Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Apr 2018 09:04

Image
Image
Image
Image

120 mm guided mortar from Bharat FOrge - Elbit and auto loading system.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Apr 2018 10:05

Image

Who makes what in ATAGS, column on the left. Massive collaborative effort by DPSUs and private industry. Magnificent.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nrshah » 15 Apr 2018 13:09

Pratyush wrote:The atags APU generates 95kw from reports and is capable of moving the gun at a top speed of 12 kph. Which is 5 kph more than fh77b.

An improvement over every other parameter from Fh 77b.

Please select a winner and place the order.

The more I look at the gun traverse mechanism on the carriage. The more confident I become that we have the building block for a turreted SPH. As both the gun and the mount can be transposed on the SPH.


As per poster, it is 110kw and and top speed is 18kmph..

Absolutely stellar efforts by India MIC... This is way to go for all the programs.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby jaysimha » 16 Apr 2018 10:57

Found this news in drdo news

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/20 ... il2018.pdf

Sharang-The Bow of Vishnu
A Few years ago, the army decided to go in for upgrading it’s old Russian howitzers which could fire
only around 20 kilometer and were outdated. “Our system which has now been named Sharang after the bow of Lord Vishnu proved to be the most accurate in the first trials where the guns outperformed the other
competitors who had collaborated with Israeli and East European vendors,” Rituraj Dwivedi, director of
Ordnance Factory Kanpur told MAIL TODAY. The guns are now ready for induction, where they will take
part in operational roles. The cost of upgrade is around `200 crore which the experts estimate may have gone up considerably if other vendors had won it.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 17 Apr 2018 02:22

Kakarat, Any clear picture of left side of that Mortar round?

Elbit version is expensive.

Ok here is the Elbit Link to LG2MK:

http://elbitsystems.com/product/guidanc ... ose-bombs/

Its not like the PGK which is a smart fuze but a whole guidance kit for mortar shell.
Looks like a laser and GPS guided shell.

Will cost quite a bit.

Jaysimha Thanks for the pdf on Sarang.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shaun » 17 Apr 2018 10:54


Kakarat
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 17 Apr 2018 12:02

ramana wrote:Kakarat, Any clear picture of left side of that Mortar round?

Elbit version is expensive.

Ok here is the Elbit Link to LG2MK:

http://elbitsystems.com/product/guidanc ... ose-bombs/

Its not like the PGK which is a smart fuze but a whole guidance kit for mortar shell.
Looks like a laser and GPS guided shell.

Will cost quite a bit.

Jaysimha Thanks for the pdf on Sarang.


Sorry i missed it, on the first day we were out of time and rushing through and on the last day they did not allow people inside the stall. I have one low rez view of the shell from a pic of the ULH

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Prasad » 17 Apr 2018 12:49


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya G » 18 Apr 2018 01:34

Any pictures of sharang?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakarat » 18 Apr 2018 01:40

Kalyani Conventional Recoil Bharat Ultra Light Howitzer (ULH) 155mm 39 CAL
https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 4570903553
Image

Kalyani Advance Hybrid Recoil Bharat Mounted Gun System (MGS) 155mm 39 CAL
https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 7065339904
Image

Brochures of Kalyani Conventional Recoil Bharat Ultra Light Howitzer (ULH) & Advance Hybrid Recoil Bharat Mounted Gun System (MGS)
https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 8698834944

ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Apr 2018 01:47

Dhanush firing trial at DefExpo 2018

https://twitter.com/DrUddipan/status/98 ... 59136?s=19

ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 18 Apr 2018 01:49

Aditya G wrote:Any pictures of sharang?



Lot on Twitter.
Follow DrUddipan the PRO for OFB.

He has PhD from TIFR


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