China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

[anishns]

J20 Not so stealthy after all

https://sputniknews.com/military/201805 ... t-detected

[chola]

A Sukhoi Su-30MKI (NATO reporting name Flanker-C) of the Indian Air Force reportedly managed to detect the latest Chinese Chengdu J-20 jet fighter, which is supposed to be a top-of-the-line stealth aircraft operated by the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), reports Indian Defence Research Wing. According to the outlet, when the new Chinese jets where conducting flight training over Tibet, Indian pilots on Russian-made Su-30MKIs managed to detect and track them from Indian airspace.

"The Sukhoi's radar can see them. The new Chinese jets are not so invisible after all. No special technology is required to detect the J-20, as it can be detected by ordinary radar stations," Indian Air Force commander Arup Shaha said.

LoL.

But do we really want to let them know we could see them?

Because that would be the first thing their military would want to test out. (Maybe not their propaganda arm.)

[Austin]

Yes why not it’s like telling them we know you are there and what you are up to more like pyschops from IAF

[chola]

Yes why not it’s like telling them we know you are there and what you are up to more like pyschops from IAF

It’s like cracking the enemy’s code. You don’t want them to know you’ve cracked it otherwise they’d work to change it.

You don’t really want them to know they have shite stealth because you don’t want them to change what they are doing. The last thing you want is the ChiComs doing the following:

1) fly initial version: Ha! We see you!
2) fly upgrade A: Ha! We still see you!
3) fly upgrade B: <silence>
4) fly upgrade A again: Ha! We still see you!

[pravula]

I would expect that they were flying with a radar reflector.

[Indranil]

This is not about cracking any code. The Chinese know the RCS of their plane. We are just telling them that we know that too.

[Bart S]

This is not about cracking any code. The Chinese know the RCS of their plane. We are just telling them that we know that too.

More importantly, telling our own folks (including armchair defense 'analysts' and most defense journalists) who lack confidence and go into 'sky is falling, China is unstoppable' mode based on reading tripe that 50-centers put out.

[kit]

J20 Not so stealthy after all

https://sputniknews.com/military/201805 ... t-detected

What if all those fighters were using some instruments like Luneberg lens to increase their RCS? Would you like to find that out in war time?

[kit]

Yes why not it’s like telling them we know you are there and what you are up to more like pyschops from IAF

It’s like cracking the enemy’s code. You don’t want them to know you’ve cracked it otherwise they’d work to change it.

You don’t really want them to know they have shite stealth because you don’t want them to change what they are doing. The last thing you want is the ChiComs doing the following:

1) fly initial version: Ha! We see you!
2) fly upgrade A: Ha! We still see you!
3) fly upgrade B: <silence>
4) fly upgrade A again: Ha! We still see you!

+1 . Frankly baying from the rooftops saying we see them also tells them when we are not as well

[shiv]

+1 . Frankly baying from the rooftops saying we see them also tells them when we are not as well

It does not. We may simply not be saying it.

[chola]

This is not about cracking any code. The Chinese know the RCS of their plane. We are just telling them that we know that too.

Now why would we want to do that? Letting them know their weaknesses just gives them time to fix things. It really does you no good.

I don’t care whether it is war, business or a football game — you never tip the opponent to their weaknesses. Ideally, they should find out only at the moment you are exploiting it.

[chola]

This is not about cracking any code. The Chinese know the RCS of their plane. We are just telling them that we know that too.

More importantly, telling our own folks (including armchair defense 'analysts' and most defense journalists) who lack confidence and go into 'sky is falling, China is unstoppable' mode based on reading tripe that 50-centers put out.

You counter our own “sky is falling” folks with focus on the REAL advantages we own like the 15-20 to 1 manpower advantages along the hindi-chini border during Doklam. Everything was set up for an epic victory yet there was no one advocating. That would have shut the “sky is falling” crowd up for the next 500 years.

Tipping the enemy off is a counterproductive way to tell our folks not to worry.

[Austin]

Yes why not it’s like telling them we know you are there and what you are up to more like pyschops from IAF

It’s like cracking the enemy’s code. You don’t want them to know you’ve cracked it otherwise they’d work to change it.

You don’t really want them to know they have shite stealth because you don’t want them to change what they are doing. The last thing you want is the ChiComs doing the following:

1) fly initial version: Ha! We see you!
2) fly upgrade A: Ha! We still see you!
3) fly upgrade B: <silence>
4) fly upgrade A again: Ha! We still see you!

Any one with elementary knowledge on radar knows that lo aircraft is band and power dependent , most of the current stealth fighter are optimised to be stealthy in X band and then it depends on the angle of aircraft relative to radar , the same aircraft in X band will show different Rf returns when the front section is facing compared to rear and when the top and bottom and rear compared to sides , as aircraft are 3D object RCs will keep changing its value wrt to the band , power and angle of aircraft wrt to radar it’s a dynamic thing that would change in seconds as aircraft is manouvering.

So if a su-30 or raffle or mirage detects a J-20 it’s no big deal modern radar has exponential higher capability to detect a lo target due to greater progress in dsp , Algos , high power per tr module and area , a stealth aircraft has limitation of physics and aerodynamics when it comes to shape structure and RAM

To give chinkis benefit of doubt they might be flying with radar enhancer like luberg lens which all pics of them show doing even the recent one of its flight over sea

So in that case it’s rcs would be deliberately enhanced

In either way it’s not a big deal it’s just a way to telling them hello we know you were there , it creates an element of uncertainty and doubt and makes them think what went wrong

It’s possible too that our EW and ESM stuff we have passively tracks them

[shiv]

I think the Chinese know damn well that their J-20 is perfectly detectable from some aspects and less so from other aspects. Saying that they were detected gives them zero information because they won't know the methods and ranges and angles from which they were detected. Dhanoa may well have been indulging in psy ops saying "Su-30" detected them. That may be true. May not be true. No one is going to tell us.

There are some things about the J-20 than simply cannot be fixed - and fixing others is no guarantee that the fixed bits were the ones previously detected by India. This is just a loose fragment of breast er titbit that has been thrown at the Chinese to get their knickers in a knot and bring down their J-20's reputation a notch.

[habal]

how close are the chinese to productionizing the WS-10 and WS-15 turbofan engines ? I am literally at a loss of words as to how many types of aero-engine classes are undergoing simultaneous development in China, as compared to our one horse race viz kaveri. And also how they manage to horseshoe each of their developmental engines into some engine bay in a 4 engine flying platform. Imagine the amount of flying data they have accumulated by now. Whenever they get confident on their engine prowess, it will not be just one engine that will roll off their factor floors but a series of engines like ws-10, 13, 15, 20 etc.

Also how many flying hours their j11 and j15 have completed with indigenous engines is also a mystery. The indication when they master these engines will be when j11s with chinese engines are offered up for export.

[chola]

how close are the chinese to productionizing the WS-10 and WS-15 turbofan engines ? I am literally at a loss of words as to how many types of aero-engine classes are undergoing simultaneous development in China, as compared to our one horse race viz kaveri. And also how they manage to horseshoe each of their developmental engines into some engine bay in a 4 engine flying platform. Imagine the amount of flying data they have accumulated by now. Whenever they get confident on their engine prowess, it will not be just one engine that will roll off their factor floors but a series of engines like ws-10, 13, 15, 20 etc.

Also how many flying hours their j11 and j15 have completed with indigenous engines is also a mystery. The indication when they master these engines will be when j11s with chinese engines are offered up for export.

The WS-10 is already productionized with their J-11B and has been for awhile with about 200 planes and 400+ engines in frontline service. They are flying new variants of the engine on multiple J-20s and also a TVC version on a J-10B. So the watcher community is pretty sure that WS-10 is not only productionized and but matured to the point it is spawning offsprings. The WS-20 high bypass engine for their transport also has a WS-10 core.

The WS-15 is blowing up during tests, according to the South China Post, so that’ll take them a while. Hence the WS-10 variants on the J-20.

Their in-flight testing is done on a IL-76 testbed that the Russians sold them (but not us.) If you read the Kaveri thread, you’ll find out that early in their history they were in Russia testing the WS-10 at the same time we were testing the Kaveri meaning they had the same bottlenecks until they wrangled the IL-76 testbed.

I wrote about their engine infrastructure in detail on multiple threads. Basically they run dual projects as backups for each engine category - WS-10B/WS-15, WS-13/WS-19, WS-18/WS-20. One evolutionary safe bet and one revolutuonary moonshot. We went for the moonshot onlee with Kaveri.

We tried to go to a modern turbofan with an industry that can’t make a piston for the Rustom I. The chini industry has planes and drones flying on their pistons, turboprops, turbojets as well as turbofans. It has both depth and breadth.

All this was made possible by an industry that shat out tens of 1000s of turbojet engines for their MiG-19/21 knockoffs from the 1960s to 1980s. If we had built the engines (well within our capacity) for the hundreds of MiG-21s and -27s that we screwdrivergiri’ed then we would have a similar infrastructure to do the same thing.

[Khalsa]

Chola

many BRFites have mentioned procuring an older Mig-29 air-frame as a flying test bed.
Obviously there would be limitation with that.
Do you think it would have been a good first step ?

[Singha]

We already have old il76 and old su30 for different types of tests from intial to supersonic

[chola]

Chola

many BRFites have mentioned procuring an older Mig-29 air-frame as a flying test bed.
Obviously there would be limitation with that.
Do you think it would have been a good first step ?

If you have nothing else, anything you can test safely with would have been a good step, IMHO.

But someone must have thought of this at GTRE, ADA, DRDO or the military. I can’t believe that something this inportant would be stymied simply by a lack of funds or lack of acquiescence from the IAF (for an available airframe.) So it was probably more of a practicality issue. It was simply not feasible or safe to test the Kaveri on a MiG-29?

That said, the MiG-29 would be the right size and configuration to test the Kaveri — the Kaveri being roughly equal to the RD-33. The SU-30 and AL-31 are much larger.

The chinis actually had a Flanker frame that included a WS-10 in one nacelle and AL-31 in the other. So the concept works — but we don’t know many times the WS-10 was tested on the IL-76 before it was installed on the J-11.

The issue with these fighter converted testbeds is they can only be used with an engine that is fairly stable. An engine that fails suddenly is still dangerous even for a twin engine plane. Also the size limits the equipment needed for measurements, telemetry and safety. A four engine platform will always be much safer.

Effort should have been put into buying a flying testbed like the chinis or developing one. But the industry never needed one before the Kaveri and by then it was probably too late. If we had been building engines all along — pistons or disposable turbojets like the MiG-21’s Tumansky then we would have been forced into acquiring a lot of these support systems. Every comes back to the lack of a real engine industry. ADA ended up doing a lab experiment when what what was needed was an established industrial complex.

[habal]

Now China have self-developed inhouse quad engine platforms like Y20 xian for testing their engines, they don't even need services of IL76 testbed anymore. Truly an embarassment of riches for them. Our plan seems to be to put kaveri derivative on a ghatak drone and rack up flying miles without any risk of collateral damage. Only fact going against this plan is the huge time lag between us and China is going to show up some place and it will give them an advantage in numbers for 5 years sometime in future, while we try to match up in numbers & bleed dry importing all kinds of planes to match up with China's self made J-10/11/15/20/31 despite being an economy able to afford to import all these easily. What an irony and self-made tragedy.

It is about time we develop a IL76/Y20 heavy transport aircraft ourselves and get rid of the test platform bottleneck for ever. This will actually help us enter big boys club than any piddly fighter development. Countries that develop heavies usually mean business.

[chola]

We already have old il76 and old su30 for different types of tests from intial to supersonic

We “have” a IL-76 at Gromov, Russia, which tested the Kaveri. But again it is in Russia and we have to go hat in hand to schedule tests on it. What other IL-76 have we used to test the Kaveri (or any other engine?)

We have a SU-30 for the aerial Brahmos tests but nothing for engines that I could remember. And we would need a Al-31 class project to use a Flanker frame.

[chola]

Now China have self-developed inhouse quad engine platforms like Y20 xian for testing their engines, they don't even need services of IL76 testbed anymore.

Actually, they are using the IL-76 as we speak to test out the WS-20 for their Y-20. I’m pretty sure they will eventually build a testbed out of the Y-20. But right now, that IL-76 is invaluable.



This platform being used by the chinis can be traced very specifically back to Russia and the pGromov Flight Research Institute at Ramenskaye (same place the Kaveri was tested):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nxgphotos/6654972165/

Ilyushin Il-76-976
Moscow Zhukovesky (Ramenskaye) - UUBW
August 2001.
LII, 76456 (c/n 0063471125, f/n 5602)
Ilyushin Il-76-976.

One of five "Aircraft 976" built from the conversion of five new Il-76MDs. Despite the external similarities with the A-50 Mainstay, 'aircraft 976' were not AWACS aircraft but were used in the Airborne Control and Measuring Station -ACMS role by Lii to track missile test launches.

In 2004, 76456 was converted to an Il-76LL engine testbed and sold to the Chinese Air Force for use by the CFTE. It is used to test the WS10 turbofan engine - used on the J10 and J11 fighters.

So the question is why weren’t we able to buy one from the Russians for the Kaveri project like the chinis did for the WS-10 (and the WS-20 and the WS-15, once it stops exploding)? Why weren’t we able to test our engines whenever we want in India?

[habal]

probably because developing indigenous engines would mean end of imports.

[Singha]

Gtre was given a shoestring budget thats why
Nobody at the top serious about domestic engine
None at top appreciated the strategic power of developing aero engines... well now they belatedly do

Gromov tsagi etc have a huge airfield and whatever they need to get things done

[habal]

It is insufficient to say just make in india or break in india without giving the scientists requisite tools to enhance their knowledge base. Even if we had not developed and started manufacturing engines, there was so much knowledge to be gained from flight testing, so much materials and alloy strength info that have multiple applications. Infact along with developing semi-conductor fabs and 5-axis 5 micron cnc machines, this should have been one of the first few pre-requisites for make in india to take off. Now imagine when the J-20 with a chinese ws-15 engine supercruises without afterburners over tibetan plateau, the Indians can just cover their face in embarassment.

[SaiK]

China's J-20 stealth fighters will likely patrol Taiwan's airspace soon — and the island nation is ready to counter
https://amp.businessinsider.com/how-tai ... ace-2018-5

[chola]

This would put their engine program into the top rung. Once they get an engine on a civilian aircraft it will begin that critical feedback loop of development —> testing —> selling —> support —> customer data —> development and begin accumulation of the experience and history that make the commercial aero-engine makers such an exclusive club.

http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2018/05 ... 0.html?m=1

China commence testing commercial CJ-1000AX turbofan engine

China has commenced testing its indigenous CJ-1000AX high bypass turbofan engine intended to power the in-development COMAC C919 single aisle passenger jet.

The engine is first indigenous Chinese commercial turbofan being developed in the country.

The assembly of the first demonstrator engine was completed in December 2017 after a 18-month process.

The engine will undergo an extensive ground and flight testing involving 24 units to validate technology and achieve certification for powering commercial flights from an ambitious 2021 schedule.

During the maiden power-on at Chinese manufacturer AECC Commercial Aircraft Engine's Shanghai Lingang test facility, the CJ-1000AX engine reached a core speed of 6600 rpm.

With a thrust of 98–196 kN (22,000–44,000 lbf), the CJ-1000AX is similar to the new generation CFM LEAP-1C engine that currently powers the COMAC C919.

The knock-on affects for their military would be incalculable. This is one of the greatest dual-use technologies there is. The GE-RR-P&W-SaFran lock on the civilian aero-engine market basically has the rest of the world paying them to maintain their supremacy in the military sector too.

[Austin]

China’s J-20 Fighter Undergoes First Over-the-Sea Combat Training

The J-20 fighter jet recently conducted its first over-the-sea combat exercise, according to the Chinese military.


By Franz-Stefan Gady
May 11, 2018

The People’s Liberation Army Air Force’s (PLAAF) purported first fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft, the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC) J-20A multirole fighter, conducted its first over-the-sea combat exercise, the PLAAF announced this week.

“The J-20 has conducted a combat training mission in sea areas for the first time, and this has further strengthened the comprehensive combat capability of the PLA Air Force,” PLAAF spokesperson Shen Jinke said on May 9, without specifying the date or location of the combat training.

“It will help the air force better fulfill its sacred duty of safeguarding China’s sovereignty, security and territorial integrity,” Shen added.

Enjoying this article? Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.
The J-20A is China’s most advanced domestically produced fighter jet to date. The aircraft is a twin-engine, single-seat fifth-generation (designated fourth-generation in the PLAAF) air superiority fighter, designed and built by CAC. The J-20A, armed with beyond visual range air-to-air missiles such as the PL-12, is specifically designed for long-range fighter missions.

However, as I explained in March, there is considerable doubt about the J-20’s stealth capabilities:

Among other things, it lacks an indigenously developed and designed next-generation high performance turbofan jet engine and continues to rely on older Russian-made models lacking (…) thrust vectoring.

Additionally, as I reported in October 2017:

The domestically developed WS-15 turbofan engine, a thrust engine under development since the 1990s, has not entered serial production. It is assumed that the first patch of J-20s is equipped with an unknown variant of the Saturn AL-31, an older Russian-made jet engine. According to some sources, the J-20 is still purportedly incapable of super cruising — sustained supersonic flight [without using afterburners].

Furthermore, the J-20A’s avionics reportedly also do not meet Western fifth-generation standards and the aircraft’s stealth coating — radiation absorbent material intended to reduce the reflection of electromagnetic waves — purportedly also has shortcomings.

Nonetheless, China’s new fighter jet has continued to make headlines in recent months. In January, J-20As took part in an air combat exercise at an undisclosed air base in China. While it was not the first aerial combat drill for the J-20 it was the first time that the PLAAF publicly confirmed the participation of the fighter aircraft in such an exercise.

The PLAAF rushed the J-20A into service in 2017. The aircraft also entered limited serial production before officially reaching full operational capability. Whether this is was a wise long-term aircraft procurement strategy remains to be seen. CAC is expected to produce three J-20As per month. The PLAAF intends to operate more than 100 J-20s by the end of the 2020s. It unclear how many J-20As are currently in service with the PLAAF; estimates vary from six to 13 (eight J-20A prototypes and five low rate initial production fighter jets).

[Singha]

probably their naval strike JH7 of PLANAF are EOL or falling apart, hence the rush to get more J20 into service

they had 124 of them per wiki.

rest of it is a mixed bag of Su27, J11, Su30(24) which represent the only credible assets - about a 100 of them spread across the 2 carriers and on land bases.

[Singha]

the mighty flying leopard with its size but puny RR spey engines will be shot down with ease by USN and USAF fighters

[chola]

Lizard’s new carrier sprung a leak? LoL

Already in drydock again after just a 5-day sea trial!

They got her in there fast! Must have been taking in a lot of water.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rajfortyseve ... 5380748289

[Singha]

or propulsion drivetrain problems that need external work

maybe she scraped a lurking american submarine

if a khan sub is reported limping into pearl harbour after striking a "underwater uncharted mountain" we will know. 5 billion dollah subs striking rocks is all too common

the fabled british SSN commanders course that adm filipov talks of has a test where the sub has to shadow a passing ship in its wake, then gain on it and sail right under it iirc, recording the prop noises fully. remaining stable in the turbulent underwater wake of a large ship is a challenge.

[chola]

or propulsion drivetrain problems that need external work

maybe she scraped a lurking american submarine

if a khan sub is reported limping into pearl harbour after striking a "underwater uncharted mountain" we will know. 5 billion dollah subs striking rocks is all too common

the fabled british SSN commanders course that adm filipov talks of has a test where the sub has to shadow a passing ship in its wake, then gain on it and sail right under it iirc, recording the prop noises fully. remaining stable in the turbulent underwater wake of a large ship is a challenge.

LoL.

An Unkil SSN got the Liaoning too.


Besides fixing the leak, they might be giving the bottom a lookover for an US homing device.

Have to say it is impressive to have the whole chini carrier together in one picture. Let’s say if a fire broke out in that drydock and spreading to the berths and the ships tied up there would wipe out their carrier arm for decades. Just sayin’.

[chola]

Following up on my earlier post on the chini private sector which gives the PRC an edge that once belonged only to Western demcracies like the US, EU and Japan.

More threatening than any carrier force IMHO.

http://spacenews.com/analysis-the-rise- ... -industry/

Analysis | The rise of China’s private space industry


The Chinese space industry is often misunderstood in the West.

And no wonder.

Between the alphabet soup of state-owned enterprises (CASC, CAST, CALT, and CASIC are four different, albeit related companies), the language barrier, and the fact that good information is hard to find, the Chinese market can be maddeningly confusing even for the most seasoned China observers.

One of the biggest gaps between perception and reality is the idea that Chinese aerospace industry is a handful of huge, state-owned companies that do everything.

This could not be further from the truth; the number of private Chinese space companies are growing. Often occupying highly niche market segments, China’s private space ventures are making very real technological breakthroughs (or at the very least, catching up with the West increasingly quickly).

...

At this point, LandSpace is the most advanced privately owned launch company in China. This still puts LandSpace far behind China’s big state-owned companies (Phoenix is smaller than the KZ-1A and CZ-11 engines, the smallest models manufactured by CASIC and CASC, respectively). But Landspace is advancing at typically modern Chinese speed (read: fast). According to LandSpace Chief Designer Wang Minghang, “With the Phoenix, we have tackled a series of technical problems in developing a liquid engine. LandSpace will use this as a solid foundation, upon which we will advance our technological capabilities moving forward.”

With this advancement, China becomes the third country in the world (after the United States and Russia) to have a private company capable of independently developing liquid-oxygen/methane engines.

[anupmisra]

China rages over US warships sailing near disputed islands, saying move 'seriously infringed' its sovereignty
Mythili Sampathkumar,The Independent

China has reacted angrily after two US warships sailed near the disputed Paracel Islands in the South China Sea, describing the move as a “provocation” and accusing America of committing a serious infringement of the country’s sovereignty.

The move “contravened Chinese and relevant international law , seriously infringed upon Chinese sovereignty [and] harmed strategic mutual trust between the two militaries”, it said.

US officials told Reuters the USS Higgins, a guided-missile destroyer, and the USS Antietam, a guided-missile cruiser, came within 12 nautical miles of the Paracel Islands – a string of islets, reefs, and shoals – over which China has had territorial disputes with neighbouring countries.

Satellite photographs taken on 12 May showed China appeared to have deployed truck-mounted surface-to-air missiles or anti-ship cruise missiles at one particular outpost, Woody Island, and earlier this month, China’s air force landed bombers on disputed islands and reefs as part of a training exercise in the region.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-rages- ... 00713.html

[Singha]

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1104314.shtml

Patronizing comments on indua vietnam military exercises

[anupmisra]

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1104314.shtml

Patronizing comments on indua vietnam military exercises

The author is executive director of the Indian Studies Center from Beijing International Studies University.

Are there similar "China"- focused study centers in Indian universities?

[Singha]

must be there in jnu

[chola]

The second hotel ship arrives in Dalian. They are massing their entire carrier personnel in one spot. Getting the new crew familiarized and trained with the operational one?





Watch for propaganda photos of both carriers in formation at some point.

The chinis’ planning of their carrier arm has been immaculate since 2012 tbh. The delivery of equipment and training has been on point and very good for their propaganda.

But again they have given their PR department the physical goods and acts to populate their propaganda.

[SaiK]

"Also, it is possible that the Chinese are flying the J-20 with radar reflectors attached to enlarge and conceal its true radar cross section during peacetime operations - just as the USAF routinely does with the F-22 and F-35," said Bronk.

For safety and training purposes, stealth aircraft often fly with markers that destroy their stealth during peacetime maneuvers.

If this is the case with the J-20s, then India may be in for an unpleasant surprise next time it tries to track the supposedly stealth jets.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/chinas- ... mki-2018-5