Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 25 May 2018 13:18

Metal is likely cheaper and easier to use than the kind of composite casing the 1st stage of icbms use

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby raghava » 25 May 2018 16:58

across all 3 forces, how many Brahmos missiles do you guys think India needs ?

Please let the answers not be fanciful like "hundreds of thousands" and so on. Please answer with a number thats ideal to successfully see through a realistic scenario like a 2-front war, or 40 days of intense fighting and so on.

The answer might surprise all of us...

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 25 May 2018 19:11

raghava wrote:across all 3 forces, how many Brahmos missiles do you guys think India needs ?

Please let the answers not be fanciful like "hundreds of thousands" and so on. Please answer with a number thats ideal to successfully see through a realistic scenario like a 2-front war, or 40 days of intense fighting and so on.

The answer might surprise all of us...


Depends on the no. of enemy targets that require the usage of Brahmos. If I am right all three services do this kind of exercise regularly and then come up with their requirements wrt desired weaponry and the numbers required of the same.

I doubt anyone on this forum could do the same.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 25 May 2018 19:50

I recall seeing a figure of 1000 for Indian armed forces at the inception of the program.

Plus about 1500 exports.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 25 May 2018 22:29

Pratyush wrote:I recall seeing a figure of 1000 for Indian armed forces at the inception of the program.

Plus about 1500 exports.

Highly doubt we will get any export customers, the air launched variant could have some demand even then there is only few platforms that can carry it. Where as naval variant has competition from Yakhont for both land/ship based segments.
Even Brahmos-M could be hard sell because often weapons platforms are sold as packages with the ship design and our SYs have not received much in terms of export.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 26 May 2018 19:47

I think it's why we're developing the glide bombs, etc., cheaper than highly expensive BMos.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 27 May 2018 02:41

Raghava Start with number of targets that need Brahmos.
Then at least two per target.
Then add 20% extra for any contingencies.
Then add 25 % for pipeline from factory to depot to regiments.
The % are arbitrary and can go up or down based on reliability

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Vips » 27 May 2018 18:08

India, Russia conclude negotiations for S-400 Triumf deal.

India has concluded price negotiations with Russia for a nearly Rs 40,000 crore deal to procure S-400 Triumf air defence missile systems for the Indian Air Force, officials said.

They said the two countries are now trying to find a way out to evade the provisions of a US law that seeks to punish countries and entities engaged in transactions with the defence or intelligence establishment of Russia.

"The negotiations for the missile deal have been concluded. The financial component has been finalised," a top official involved in the negotiations for the deal with Russia told .

The official said both Russia and India are likely to announce the deal before an annual summit between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin in October.

Two other officials said both sides are now looking at ways to insulate the deal from the sanctions announced by the US against Russia under its Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).

The issue is understood to have figured during Modi's informal talks with Putin in Sochi last week.

There has been mounting concerns in India over the US sanctions against Russian defence majors including Rosoboronexport as billions of dollars of military purchases may be impacted because of the punitive measure.

The US had announced sanctions against Russia under the stringent law for its alleged meddling in the American presidential election in 2016.

CAATSA, which came into effect in January, mandates the Donald Trump administration to punish entities engaging in significant transaction with the defence or intelligence establishment of Russia.

US Defence Secretary Jim Mattis last month appealed to the Congress to urgently provide India the national security waiver, saying imposing sanctions under CAATSA for the S-400 air defence missile deal would only hit the US.

India wants to procure the long-range missile systems to tighten its air defence mechanism, particularly along the nearly 4,000-km-long Sino-India border.

In 2016, India and Russia had signed an agreement on the 'Triumf' interceptor-based missile system which can destroy incoming hostile aircraft, missiles and even drones at ranges of up to 400 km. S-400 is known as Russia's most advanced long-range surface-to-air missile defence system.

China was the first foreign buyer to seal a government-to-government deal with Russia in 2014 to procure the lethal missile system and Moscow has already started delivery of unknown number of the S-400 missile systems to Beijing.

The S-400 is an upgraded version of the S-300 systems. The missile system, manufactured by Almaz-Antey, has been in service in Russia since 2007.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 28 May 2018 00:12

Just say supreme national interest.
Anyway Bill Clinton winked at NoKo supply of NoDong missiles in mid 90s.
And sought to constrain India.
This situation would not come but for US egging China to become G2.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 May 2018 17:04

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 383582.cms
Pinaka mk2 with 70 km range and guidance fired

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Chinmay » 30 May 2018 18:36

https://twitter.com/ajitkdubey/status/1001763038561734656

Breaking: @DRDO_India successfully test fires an unnamed #missile powered by a new solid fuel #scramjet engine developed indigenously. Big breakthrough in missile technology. #MakeinIndia

Any idea what it could be? This is the first time I am hearing of a scramjet weapon. ISRO tested scramjets a couple of years ago AFAIK

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 30 May 2018 18:55

Solid fuel scramjet or ramjet? If it is the later itbis most likely SFDR, aka Meteor equivalent.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 30 May 2018 19:29

Scramjets are liquid fuel per my limited knowledge

We should equip mirv bgrv with scramjet engines for long powered flights

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Thakur_B » 30 May 2018 19:45

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/story/as-army-evaluates-foreign-missile-systems-govt-considers-developing-indigenous-variant-under-make-in-india-1088269-2017-11-17

There was a move to develop local VSHORAD missile. This article is from november. Has any progress been reported on this missile so far ? (sanctions, approvals DAC meetings, anything).

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 30 May 2018 20:02

Chinmay wrote:https://twitter.com/ajitkdubey/status/1001763038561734656

Breaking: @DRDO_India successfully test fires an unnamed #missile powered by a new solid fuel #scramjet engine developed indigenously. Big breakthrough in missile technology. #MakeinIndia

Any idea what it could be? This is the first time I am hearing of a scramjet weapon. ISRO tested scramjets a couple of years ago AFAIK


Could be the test article mounted on a missile, reinterpreted by our creative DDM

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nash » 30 May 2018 20:31

Indranil wrote:Solid fuel scramjet or ramjet? If it is the later itbis most likely SFDR, aka Meteor equivalent.


https://twitter.com/ajitkdubey/status/1 ... 0650668032

SUCCESSFUL FLIGHT TEST OF SFDR

The tech demo flight test of “Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR)” propulsion based Missile has been carried out successfully from the Launch Center-III of ITR, Chandipur, Orissa at 12:06 hrs today.The flight test met all mission objectives

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 30 May 2018 20:42

Wonder if it is a miniaturized version of Akash ramjet engine. It is solid fuel engine as well.

For a time when we had to do with crapy Russian BVRs, we are now testing cutting edge BVRs tech!

I take Meteor will become less expensive now..

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 30 May 2018 21:55

Indranil wrote:Solid fuel scramjet or ramjet? If it is the later itbis most likely SFDR, aka Meteor equivalent.



If the data link and seekers are perfected for mk1. Then it should be relatively easy for us to perfect mk2 and put together a meteor class missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 30 May 2018 21:59

UK is trialing a Vshored MBDA system called land ceptor with 25km range, 8 rounds on a truck

nice video showing it using X thrusters on the tail to slew to horizontal after launch
https://twitter.com/JosephHDempsey/stat ... 9372319744

I guess our derby and python in the spyder system does the same dance ...

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Jaeger » 30 May 2018 22:13

This is basically a slightly modified vertical launched ASRAAM. Soft launch and pif paf in the tail for direction. The sea version is quad packable in the SYLVER vls. Derby and python will not do the same dance because they have slewable launchers and no pif paf.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 30 May 2018 22:34

seems like we have the SR system with turntable launcher, while MR adds booster and has a fixed land ceptor type tubes
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 30 May 2018 22:41

wiki claims we got MR ... IAF is very secretive about this system unlike akash where they are openly on watch in eastern command

-- 18 SPYDER-MRs along with 750 Python-5 surface to air missiles (SAMs) and 750 Derby SAMs has been delivered.

I tend to think we got the cheaper SR

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby dinesha » 30 May 2018 23:10

#BREAKING: #India successfully conducts first test of a new surface-to-air missile system powered by solid fuled ducted ramjet engine with nozzle less booster. The fastest #missile in its class can kill any fast moving objects 50 km away. #Odisha

https://twitter.com/hemant_tnie/status/ ... 29345?s=12

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 31 May 2018 00:08

nam wrote:Wonder if it is a miniaturized version of Akash ramjet engine. It is solid fuel engine as well.

For a time when we had to do with crapy Russian BVRs, we are now testing cutting edge BVRs tech!

I take Meteor will become less expensive now..

Pratyush wrote:
Indranil wrote:Solid fuel scramjet or ramjet? If it is the later itbis most likely SFDR, aka Meteor equivalent.



If the data link and seekers are perfected for mk1. Then it should be relatively easy for us to perfect mk2 and put together a meteor class missile.


No, it is not related to Akash. It has been in development for over a decade. We have discussed SFDR since it first became public (issued tender for a test stand) in 2015.

Indranil wrote:More details of the SFDR missile (desi Meteor/R-77M-PD/RVV-AE-PD) being developed at DRDL from the tender for Manufacturing And Supply Of Ground Launcher.

1. SFDR is an Air to Air class of missile working on booster-ram jet sustainer propulsion system.
2. It is a technology demonstration vehicle to prove various technologies like: controlled ram jet propulsion system, chin mounted air intakes, nozzle less booster and boron based propellant with high burn rate.
3. The base line design for the SFDR vehicle is ASTRA missile.
4. The missile is required to be launched from pylon of the wing of aircraft which is underslung.

Image


Thakur_b brought us the schematic of the inside.
Image

If a ground launched version hits a target 50 kms away, it is of Meteor class!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 31 May 2018 00:30

Singha wrote:wiki claims we got MR ... IAF is very secretive about this system unlike akash where they are openly on watch in eastern command

-- 18 SPYDER-MRs along with 750 Python-5 surface to air missiles (SAMs) and 750 Derby SAMs has been delivered.

I tend to think we got the cheaper SR

It was for SR unfortunately but still quite cost effective 18 systems for 1.2 billion was the overall deal.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 31 May 2018 00:38

Does anybody know which missile is codenamed PJ-8?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rahul M » 31 May 2018 01:08

brahmos is PJ-10 IIRC.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 31 May 2018 01:12

Yeah.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 31 May 2018 02:47

I am digging up my posts from the past regarding SFDR. This one is from Aug-2016.
Another pointer of great significance is the Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet technology for air launched tactical missile.

The state of art SFDR is a joint development project between DRDO and Russia. SFDR is designed with an advanced propulsion system having thrust modulation using hot gas flow controller. The missile is configured with reduced smoke nozzle-less booster, having a range of 120 km at 8 km altitude with a speed of 2.3-2.5M. Preliminary design documentation of the SFDR propulsion system has been completed. Wind tunnel testing of SFDR model was completed in October 2015.


This is the desi Meteor.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 31 May 2018 07:01

Indranil if you pair this with a Agni I first stage you will have a ground based hypersonic intercept vehicle. Can handle high or low incoming.

S400 ka baap.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby A Sharma » 31 May 2018 07:26

TNIE EXCLUSIVE: India hits strategic milestone with successful test of surface-to-air missile

By Hemant Kumar Rout

Express News Service

BHUBANESWAR: In a major breakthrough in missile technology, India on Wednesday successfully carried out the first test of a new surface-to-air missile with nozzle less booster making its mark as a military superpower in South East Asia region. Indigenously designed and developed by the country’s premier research agency - Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the fastest missile in its class is capable of neutralising fast moving aerial targets.

Defence sources said the missile, which is yet to get a formal name, was flight tested from launching complex-III of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off Odisha coast at about 12.05 pm. The missile, powered by Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR), was fired from a static launcher meeting all mission objectives.

The missile flew in its intended trajectory at a speed of Mach 3 (thrice the speed of sound) and performed as expected perfectly validating the new indigenous technology. “It was a booster phase test of the missile and the mission was a major milestone for the strategic missile programme. The nozzle less booster and SFDR were tested successfully. We can now master the technology which will boost several next-generation weapon systems,” a defence official told The New Indian Express over the phone from New Delhi.

All radars, telemetry and electro-optical systems deployed along the coast tracked and monitored the health parameters of the missile system that has faster reaction time. The data generated during the test are being analysed for future missions.

“It is indeed a great achievement for the Make-in-India programme. Several other components of the missile, including the seeker with advanced technology, will be put to tests soon. Though the range was not a matter during the maiden trial, the missile will definitely have a longer strike range than the existing similar systems in the arsenal,” the official said.

Even as India has surface-to-air missile systems like Akash, Break 8, QRSAM and all-weather beyond visual range air-to-air missile Astra, the indigenously developed SFDR will help the country master in the cutting edge technology which was secured by a few selected nations so far.

“The new technology will help both surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles perform better and enhance their strike range making the weapons more lethal. Now India can have fastest long-range missiles in the two categories providing a full-fledged and multi-layered aerial protection from hostile attacks,” the official added.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby dinesha » 31 May 2018 07:55

http://forceindia.net/feature-report/big-boost/

Big Boost
DRDO’s Project SFDR proves that solid propellants are here to stay
Jaison Deepak

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is developing a technology in what could be the basis for future air to air, surface to air and air to ground missiles. Project SFDR, which stands for Solid Fuel Ducted Rocket or a solid booster cum Ramjet propulsion, is being worked upon by Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) lab for some years now and it had even called tenders for manufacturing the launcher way back in 2015. The SFDR will be attached with a solid booster to initially propel it to speeds at which it can start operating.

MBDA’s Meteor, DRDO SFDR
Most current missiles use a booster/sustainer configuration with solid or liquid propellants. The booster stage propels them to top speeds after which the sustainer sustains the missile velocity for some time before complete burnout after which they glide towards the target. While this is a simple and tested means, it has limitations of maximum engagement ranges especially against manoeuvring targets which can bleed the energy of conventional missiles.

To improve endgame manoeuvring missiles started incorporating multi-pulse rocket motors like the ones in the Astra MK1 and Rafael Stunner, the second pulse doesn’t fire simultaneously but rather at the terminal stages when the seeker has locked onto the target, greatly enhancing endgame manoeuvrability. The MBDA meteor missile broke the impasse by incorporating a Throttleable Ducted Rocket (TDR) version of the ramjet made by the famous propellant manufacturer Bayern-Chemie of Germany. The TDR acts like an extended sustainer with variable thrust in a solid propellant but can sustain thrust for far longer periods as it gets the oxidiser from the air, instead storing it as in solid fuelled missiles.

While the DRDO has some experience with liquid/solid fuelled ramjet through the BRAHMOS and the Akash project, making a light, compact throttleable solid fuel version is a considerable challenge. One of the expected applications would be the future versions based on the Astra missile which explains why the SFDR experiment is reported to be based on the Astra airframe. If achieved, the SFDR equipped Astra will be huge improvement over the current version in terms of engagement kinematics and provide long range interception capabilities.

However, SFDR comes with its own limitations. Raytheon, the manufacturer of the AIM-120 AMRAAM, had carried out studies to incorporate various propulsion systems to improve the AMRAAM but arrived at the conclusion that the ramjet motors are heavier and take time to reach top speed in the initial phases than conventional motor, and are thus less agile. This can affect the kill probability at short to medium ranges which is where a majority of the engagements are going to take place.

The DRDO, having expressed before that the Astra Mk1 will not be replaced by newer versions of it but will be complemented by them, also reinforces the fact that solid propellants are here to stay. The Rafales, to be inducted by the Indian Air Force (IAF), will use the shorter range MBDA Mica to complement the long range Meteor and the DRDO may as well be looking to do the same with Astra Mk1, MK2 and the SFDR project.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 31 May 2018 09:14

Pinaka MK2 was also tested. Two rounds. More might come. 70km range fornthe guided mk2 version.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 383582.cms

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 31 May 2018 09:16

Hemant Rout calls the tested SFDR a SAM. This must be tested from the static stand.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 31 May 2018 10:26

JayS wrote:Hemant Rout calls the tested SFDR a SAM. This must be tested from the static stand.



Even astra was initially tested from static stands. But it was always classified as a bvr aam.

Could this be the mrsam that the armed forces are looking for.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gyan » 31 May 2018 11:42

Astra is labelled as both CCM and BVR in lots of DRDO brochures

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 31 May 2018 12:02

JayS wrote:Hemant Rout calls the tested SFDR a SAM. This must be tested from the static stand.

Yes. the image i posted above was for the test stand for SFDR stand. All the points I made were also from previous DRDO tenders.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 31 May 2018 12:13

ramana wrote:Indranil if you pair this with a Agni I first stage you will have a ground based hypersonic intercept vehicle. Can handle high or low incoming.

S400 ka baap.

They wont need Agni 1 booster. Something much smaller would do. But, everthibg that i have gleaned point to a completely new two stagr all solid missile.

My next itch is actually to know about AD1 and AD2.

In the department of missiles, India has trully arrived. Astra enabled QRSAM, and now SFDR. How beautiful is that?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby mody » 31 May 2018 13:17

Success of SFDR is truly a major breakthrough. Astra-MKIII (MKII being a dual pulse motor version), new MR-SAM and Brahmos NG, all will be based on this technology.
With the success of indigenous IIR and RF seekers, this tech will usher in a whole new generation of missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 31 May 2018 13:25

This appears to have the potential to be both an upgraded AAM ( ASTRA) and a SAM variant as shown in the diagram.Some more info. is needed to ascertain where it will fit in with our other desi systems and imported ones.


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