Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 21 May 2018 06:50

Vayutuvan wrote:
shiv wrote:We are actually jackasses because no one asks the geneticist which genes code for language. When you ask them they will point to linguists/archaeology papers and say 'Language migration has been demonstrated by linguists who tell us that PIE was in steppe and those people moved to India and Iran, creating Indo-Iranian language first and later Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit"


Don't these geneticists recognize what is called 'a circular argument' when they advance this kind of an answer?

The entirety of the language science is described in, mathematics, is built on foundations and deductions of the kind 'if A then B' & 'A' then deduce B.

If there are three implications as in

1. if A then B
2. if B then C
3. if C then A

just showing those to be true doesn't say anything about the truth value of A, B or C. On the other hand, if one is able to prove one of A, B, or C to be True, then all three predicates A, B, and C are True.

IMO this is a consequence of the pir-review echo-system in weshtern univerjitiej. Nobody questions the linguists because it is already stamped as accepted truth. Even if all genetics is proven to be wrong with regard to migrations the linguistics-sourced language migration theory will survive.

If you start reading the way linguists have worked on their conclusions and extrapolations - the work is full of symbols and jargon that, to the uninitiated looks as arcane as maths. Problem is that maths is based on solid principles that exhibit consistency, repeatability and ultimately proof. If I tell you here that I calculated Pi to 1 million decimal places and the last 3 digits are 786 then his can be confirmed or falsified by you. And even if that is correct a critical review would ask if I happened to get the figure right by random chance - because I have a 1 in 1000 chance of getting it right by guesswork.

That is not how they work in comparative linguistics. They represent sound as symbols and compare cognate word sounds (from different languages) for common elements and eliminate the parts that are not shared and the common elements become part of the "root sound". Then they cook up new hypothetical sounds (never as recordings, always as written symbols) that "must have been there" because that is how it is in xyz language was. This is all very well and appears like some nifty scholarship until you realize that they are cooking up some proto-language like PIE that never really existed - so the question of proof never arises. The incestuous group of linguists simply agree that "This must have been so" and put it in their academ(on)ic papers.

No one gets into this because learning calculus or biochemistry puts you under enough stress that you don't want to stir up the dense, opaque muck that comparative linguistics is.

PS: Panini's grammar apparently has rules that say where certain sounds are dropped or where two sounds can be joined up. Those of you who have studied Sanskrit (or Kannada/other) grammar will know this. But remember this - Panini was writing about known languages. He was not cooking up unknown languages. He showed rules about how certain sounds went in a particular pattern. He was not making up PIE that could not be demonstrated.

In a recent exchange I had with Koenraad Elst - he suddenly accused me of disrespecting Panini - using the classic bait and switch argument that linguistics supporters on this forum have done. Linguists do use Panini's suggestions but they cook up languages and claim that cooked up ones existed without any possibility of proof. no one seems to think that this is odd. We get so used to thinking that al is vel in this day and age that we get hoodwinked by mumbojumbo artistes like comparative linguists. Combine them with creative interpretations of texts - we have an elaborate but fake structure - a real elephant in our room of cosy "modern reality"

Why is all this shit important? Because our history is cooked up for us by these people

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SBajwa » 22 May 2018 17:27


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 22 May 2018 23:20

Here is a video https://youtu.be/tCckcTHWqKw purporting to be a "Middle English reading of John Skelton's poem "Speke Parrot""
[

Listen to it, and ask why are modern English and Middle English (John Skelton 1463-1529) (assuming the pronunciation is correct and not made up) considered to be the same language, while Vedic and Avestan are different.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 22 May 2018 23:44

Possible example of linguist bullshit: Khotanese.


Khotanese is one of the languages of the Indo-Scythians (Sakas). Sakas invaded India around 100 BCE. The question was what language did they speak?
The answer was e.g., Khotanese - which however is attested to only 500 years later, written in Kharoshti and a form of Brahmi.

Khotanese is classified as "Middle Indo-Iranian".

http://www.languagesgulper.com/eng/Khotanese.html
One distinguishing feature of Khotanese is the presence of retroflex consonants, absent in other Middle Indo-Iranian languages.


Shouldn't one's ears perk up at the presence of retroflex consonants? In the god-awful classification of languages by the linguists, shouldn't this be "Middle Indo-Aryan", not "Middle Indo-Iranian"?

Doesn't it seem like maybe the Sakas invaded India, but the Indian languages percolated back into the original Saka homeland?

Lexicon
The majority of loanwords are from the Indian languages, Sanskrit and Prakrits, a source of Buddhist terminology. In an early period some technical terms were adopted from Zoroastrian, but applied in a Buddhist context. A handful of borrowings come from Tocharian, Chinese and Tibetan.

Khotanese numerals

one: śśau
two: duva
three: drraia
four: tcahora
five: paṃjsa
six: kṣäta, kṣei'
seven: hoda
eight: haṣṭa
nine: no, nau
ten: dasau
hundred: satä


The Wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka_language has a strange statement:
Many Prakrit terms were borrowed from Khotanese into the Tocharian languages.


The Tocharian language is attested to 6-8th century CE. One must ask - what is the peculiarity of Prakrit terms that they get borrowed into Khotanese and from Khotanese into Tocharian? Either one should say that Khotanese words were borrowed into Tocharian, and if that is not true, then Prakrit words were borrowed from Prakrit into Khotanese and Tocharian. There is nothing that would distinguish Prakrit words in Khotanese that would scream out to the Tocharians, "borrow me, I'm Prakrit".

For reference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prakrit
The Prakrits (/ˈprɑːkrɪt/; Sanskrit: प्राकृत prākṛta; Shauraseni: pāuda; Jain Prakrit: pāua) are any of several Middle Indo-Aryan languages formerly spoken in India.[2][3] Texts written in these languages date from the 3rd century BC to the 8th century AD or later.


----
If it is possible to pick at any part of the linguists' BS, whether with Avestan or whether with Khotanese, it may be possible to undermine their foundations.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 22 May 2018 23:53


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Vayutuvan » 23 May 2018 03:46

shiv wrote: ... If I tell you here that I calculated Pi to 1 million decimal places and the last 3 digits are 786 then his can be confirmed or falsified by you ...


Just a little curious (but tangential) fact is that there exists a polynomial time algorithm to tell whether the nth bit is 0 or 1, for any n, of the value of Pi expressed in binary.

PS: As per paaNini, that is correct. he does have rules in ashTaadhyaayi for sandhi. His work is very highly mathematical. Unfortunately some 'Computational Lunguists' themselves have not read Chomsky's language types which are Type 3, Type 2, Type 1, and Type 0 (i.e. Recursively enumerable) languages. Chomsky typology is intricately linked with Automata, Turing Machine being the most sophisticated automaton one can imagine. If that is the status of what is supposedly most science like part of Linguists, imagine the state of affairs of those germans who are doing PhDs, I kid you not, on gerund ending in Germanic languages, in the US.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 23 May 2018 16:31

Is it possible that Sitar became Guitar? Through this path ...

Sitar-Cithara (pronounced chithara or kitara - which Nero probably played while Rome burned)-Kitara-Guitar?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Lalmohan » 23 May 2018 17:29

more likely route is via the gypsies who may have brought a sitar or sitar like instrument out of india and took it west
the gypsies put down most roots in spain, where the "Spanish guitar" has come from

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Lalmohan » 23 May 2018 17:36

was watching a programme last night about how satellite imagery is used to identify prospective archaeological sites and then using multiple techniques to identify what was happening at the site, when and therefore who was most likely to have been there. in this context it was the (almost) positive identification of a Viking staging post on another part of newfoundland which brings Viking presence much closer to the American mainland than previously thought. the final clue was a semi treated piece of bog iron (ore) which was indicative of Viking iron smelting being done on the site. none of the other findings was remotely supportive (remnants of earthen walls, supposed iron nail debris, seeds - none of which were found to what they appeared to be or to be from the relevant period) - linguistics of course cannot provide any such hard evidence, and I would suggest nor can genetic mapping (since it misses out who was where when but only shows linkages between groups over time)

we have a long way to go to uncover all that must one day be rediscovered

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SBajwa » 23 May 2018 21:02

https://www.guyguitars.com/eng/handbook ... story.html

"The earliest stringed instruments known to archaeologists are bowl harps and tanburs. Since prehistory people have made bowl harps using tortoise shells and calabashes as resonators, with a bent stick for a neck and one or more gut or silk strings. The world's museums contain many such "harps" from the ancient Sumerian, Babylonian, and Egyptian civilisations. Around 2500 - 2000 CE more advanced harps, such as the opulently carved 11-stringed instrument with gold decoration found in Queen Shub-Ad's tomb, started to appear."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanpura

Could Tanburs come from Tanpura?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 24 May 2018 00:34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEwOxdAAjYE

Paganism in Lithuania - key point relevant to this thread between 6:00-8:00

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 27 May 2018 11:20

Image

Ashokan Rock edict 4, line 3 : dhamacharanena bherighoso aho dhammaghoso VIMANADarsana cha Hastidasana Cha
Shobhna Gokhale author of Purabhilekhavidya (Marathi) translates Vimana here to spacecraft (avakashyana)


Ashoka the great tells about restroing the respect of Brahmans especially in this edict. First he speaks about increase in violence and disrespect to Brahmans and Shramans in last several (hundred) years. In line 6 he says (since now he has taken over) the respect to Brahmans and Shramans have been restored, parents and elders are no more neglected.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ShyamSP » 27 May 2018 16:33

Harvard research made into Telugu papers. In the article they say this article is sourced from "The genomic formation of Central and South Asia" research paper with conclusions that "AMT happened in 2000-1500 BCE", "OIT propagated by Hinduta is wrong", and "Indians are mixed people with male genes from other places", blah, blah.

http://www.eenadu.net/exclusive-news/ee ... item=ems79
Who are Aryans? Where did they come from? Where did they come to? What did they do after they come?
- by Eeenadu special division (??? Looks like it is directly written by "Harvard" research pushers.)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Ashok Sarraff » 02 Jun 2018 04:53

Fits nicely with Nilesh’s timeline for Mahabharat.

https://news.stanford.edu/press-release ... cal-event/

About 7000 years ago, genetic diversity of males decreased to such an extent that there was only 1 male for about 17 females. A disastrous war could have caused it, according to the paper.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 04 Jun 2018 12:52

Pre-Iron Bronze Age Chariots have been found in Baghpat

https://www.news18.com/news/india/in-a- ... 68085.html

Baghpat: For the first time in the Indian sub-continent, the burial pits have been found with chariots that date back to the Pre-Iron Age(Bronze). This new finding is set to create space for further investigation on dating of the Mahabharata period and further inquiry into the origins of the horse in the Harappa age, as per the experts involved in the three-month trial dig at Baghpat’s Sanauli in Uttar Pradesh.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 04 Jun 2018 22:46

^^^
The chariot is a lookalike of the ones found in its contemporary cultures like Mesopotamia, it is a solid wheel with no spokes.


Also , coffins:

There are eight burial pits – which have skeletons, beads, pottery, chariot, sword, torch. These are wooden decomposed coffins with copper decorations that made the spotting of the coffin easier. There are eight anthromorphic figures having horned and peepal leafed crown decorated on cover of coffin. The designs are aesthetic and say a lot about the society in Pre-Iron Age.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 05 Jun 2018 09:21

Very exciting find! Coincides with chariot burials found in China that someone else tweeted about.

I am curious to know what time is "pre-iron-age" - in India, iron age was pushed back to 1800 BCE

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 05 Jun 2018 11:18

I asserted this to be due to Mahabharata event (5561 BCE) more than a year ago(on this very thread)! And data (not shown in the article below) proves my point handsomely. My assertion was based on the paper by Monika Karmin et al of 2015. I also discussed this scenario with Vagheesh Narasimhan (Postdoc working on genetics at Harvard with Prof. David Reich)

https://news.stanford.edu/2018/05/30/wa ... al-event/#

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Nilesh Oak » 05 Jun 2018 12:30

Ashok Sarraff wrote:Fits nicely with Nilesh’s timeline for Mahabharat.

https://news.stanford.edu/press-release ... cal-event/

About 7000 years ago, genetic diversity of males decreased to such an extent that there was only 1 male for about 17 females. A disastrous war could have caused it, according to the paper.

Indeed. See my comment - in this very thread- made on 13 July 2017

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 05 Jun 2018 23:12

Sanauli excavation report from 2005-2006:
https://www.academia.edu/8799919/Excava ... amuna_Doab

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RoyG » 06 Jun 2018 01:32

Prem Kumar wrote:Very exciting find! Coincides with chariot burials found in China that someone else tweeted about.

I am curious to know what time is "pre-iron-age" - in India, iron age was pushed back to 1800 BCE


Was it a bullock cart or chariot?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby disha » 06 Jun 2018 05:47

Looks like Aryans came circa: 2500 BC, put together some horse-chariots, buried the chariots with spoked wheels and took the horses with them.

I think the Aryans wanted to have a war with Saraswati valley civilization, so they surreptitiously buried the chariots and came back some 800 years later to wage war. They forgot the chariots, but came on horses.

After they completely decimated SVC., they decided not to bury the horses but to cremate them. Since not many horse bones are found even after the Aryan Invasion which was made on horses.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/todays-newspaper/2000bc-chariots-set-to-redefine-mahabharata-age.html

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RoyG » 06 Jun 2018 08:43

Solid wheel came before spoke wheels. Coupled with burial pits, armor, chariots, swords, and copper jewelry dating somewhere between 2200-1800 BC means this is terrible news for the genomics team. Solid wheels were already present in Indus from ~3500-3000BC. If anything this would mean that warrior culture may have flowed outward to a degree.

That being said, I am a bit curious about whether the wheels mentioned in the Rig-Veda are spoked or solid? What is the verse? It would be interesting to see if spoked wheel translation was cooked up by linguists to match spoked wheel discovery in Steppe.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 06 Jun 2018 10:28

RoyG: we don't know a few things yet

1) Whether the chariot itself is dated to be between 2200 - 1800 BCE. There is a very good chance that it is, but we still need to carbon-date it

2) What animal pulled the chariot: likely horse but this may not be settled as easily

3) Was it a chariot or a cart: given that there are other warrior-class artifacts found nearby (daggers, swords with copper handles etc), its far more likely to be a chariot.

I am sure that douches like Anthony will claim that these were "personal carts" of the royals - but balls to them! Their theory is dead

Michael Danino showed that Indus Valley knew both spoked and non-spoked wheels. There are seals for both

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Jun 2018 10:58

Modern wheel's evolution suggests spoke wheels are being replaced with non-spoke one.

These chariots finds, dated approx to 2000 BCE from a place away and east of mainstream Harappan sites is a big news.

At sanauli this is also found, near the chariot or with chariot

Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Jun 2018 11:02

Image

"A coffin of a warrior king of the copper age (contemporary with Indus Valley Civilisation) found in the excavation at Sinauli, Dist Baghpat, 50 km from Meerut. He was burried with his sword, shield, copper helmit, chariots, a dog and a bird. The height of the king was about 6 feet. All other burials found here earlier were without coffins. This had copper motifs and designs including that of a horned headress and Peepal leaf."

Courtesy Mr Pathak

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RoyG » 06 Jun 2018 11:03

Murugan wrote:Modern wheel's evolution suggests spoke wheels are being replaced with non-spoke one.

These chariots finds, dated approx to 2000 BCE from a place away and east of mainstream Harappan sites is a big news.

At sanauli this is also found, near the chariot or with chariot

Image


Where is the translation of Rig Veda which mentions spoke wheel? I wonder if it is something simply cooked up by linguists. Maybe it translates into solid wheel.

These people fcked up big time. Should have gotten dna. proly contaminated now.
Last edited by RoyG on 06 Jun 2018 11:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Jun 2018 11:03

More pics of wheels/impressions

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Jun 2018 11:06

Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Jun 2018 11:07

Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Jun 2018 11:22

Ancient India was full of forests, thickly forested plains and hills not suitable for horses. There were plains suitable for horses though but not much. One can refer to forest burning around Hastinapur (Delhi plains) in Mahabharat. The most suitable animal to negotiate thick forests is elephant. This is also true in some north east states today. To make roads/paths pliable ancient Indians used elephants. Then such paths were suitable for horses.

Assigning all the achievement of progress to faster horses is horseshit. One simply could not move around in thickly forested ancient Indian land with just horses.

Some of our archaeologists just propelling these horseshit about progress and horses.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Jun 2018 11:53

All the grand structures of India could be built with the help of elephants only. Most of the ancient/medieval wars of Asia were fought with elephants. Elephants which only Indians could (and can) tame.

Image

The Elephant Battery in Peshawar (Look at SDRE looking horses standing by the elephants). Wiki

Image
World War I, Elephants pulling heavy war machines

Image
Elephant pulling an aircraft

Image
Indian Cavalary

None of Iravadan's Horses are capable of doing any of the above except standing by elephants.
Horse and Chariots possession and use linked with aryan invasion or supremacy is biggest BS Indians have suckered upto

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Jun 2018 12:07

Horses look like BachchaPhalus in front of the elephants - Battle of Zama Engraving (Wiki)

Image

Science of training elephants is Indian, went elsewhere from India.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Jun 2018 12:12

It is difficult to date Shri Sukta - Rigveda (anyone) where Horse, Chariot and Elephants are mentioned in single line:

अश्वपूर्वां रथमध्यां हस्तिनादप्रबोधिनीम् ।
श्रियं देवीमुपह्वये श्रीर्मा देवी जुषताम् ॥३॥
Ashva-Puurvaam Ratha-Madhyaam Hastinaada-Prabodhiniim |
Shriyam Deviim-Upahvaye Shriirmaa Devii Jussataam ||3||

Meaning:
3.1: (Harih Om. O Jatavedo, Invoke for me that Lakshmi) Who is Abiding in the Chariot of Sri ( in the Middle ) which is driven by Horses in Front and Whose Appearance is Heralded by the Trumpet of Elephants,

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Jun 2018 12:35

What the heck, even Chariot of Goddess Lakshmi pulled by Iravadan's horses need Hastinad हस्तिनादप्रबोधिनीम् to make her (and horses) presence felt.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Jun 2018 12:42

Pre-satvahana Chariot, horses and Sarathi depicted on a coin (at least 2nd Century BCE)

Image

White Metal (?) 3.63g, Nasik Region, obv. a chariot drawn by two horses to left, the charioteer seated with left hand on his waist and holding whip in the right. A bull to left with two small taurine symbols

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 06 Jun 2018 12:45

That sword, for 2000+ BC is something awesome.

When it is cleaned up, it's going to be difficult for an untrained eye to say whether it was made in 2000 BC or 2000 AD... check out the handle. Wielded by a six-footer, as the skeleton apparently indicates, that chariot-borne warrior with his helmet, shield and copper-plated protective patches must have been something to behold. Wonder if a shield was discovered.

RoyG - I wouldn't worry too much about the DNA. Unlikely that the archaeologists missed something so basic. But from what I've read on Twitter (Vagheesh), apparently the ASI has refused to release DNA samples for the past 50 odd years. Which I'm not complaining about considering the absolute jackassery and duplicity shown in the past by those injecting themselves into our history for self-serving and self-aggrandizing purposes.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Murugan » 06 Jun 2018 12:56

Elephant, Horse and Chariot mentioned again in Shri Sukta (Rigved) here

पुत्रपौत्र धनं धान्यं हस्त्यश्वादिगवे रथम्
प्रजानां भवसि माता आयुष्मन्तं करोतु माम् ॥१९॥
Putra-Pautra Dhanam Dhaanyam Hasty-Ashva-[A]adi-Gave Ratham |
Prajaanaam Bhavasi Maataa Aayussmantam Karotu Maam ||19||

Meaning:
19.1: (Harih Om, Salutations to Mother Lakshmi) O Mother, bestow us with Children and Grandchildren to continue our lineage; and Wealth, Grains, Elephants, Horses, Cows and Carriages for our daily use.

Prem Kumar
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 06 Jun 2018 14:35

I wonder how CCMB got a hold of Rakhigari DNA? Was the excavation done by someone other than ASI (or) did ASI give permission to extract DNA?

I agree with JEM: if at all we release the DNA, it should be to someone like CCMB. Not to the Harvard Nazis & their Indian sepoys, who will abuse the data.

A_Gupta
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Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Jun 2018 17:08

ADNA took off in the 1990s (the first paper was in 1984). First human aDNA was 1993, but contamination issues (not a big problem with non human aDNA) resulted in human aDNA studies taking off only in 2005. ASI couldn’t have been refusing for 50 years.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... po=9.61538


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