Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Naidu
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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Naidu » 05 Mar 2004 10:42

Originally posted by narayanan:
BTW, what is this "JDAM scenario"? I thought it referred to the nice things that convert runways to ploughed fields, while the Daisy Cutters convert IslamaGood to Parking Lot.
JDAM = Jihadi Delivered Atomic Munition

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby James Bund » 05 Mar 2004 11:58

Can people try and post at a higher signal/noise ratio. Some of the posts I can't make sense of, the internet is not yet in the parlour.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby daulat » 05 Mar 2004 14:33

it would seem that Nigeria has now denied the Aziz reports and said it was all a mix up over a typing error

lends credence to the deliberate shaming theory, the defence minister has an axe to grind, but why? I do not accept that the Nigerian diplo's would make such an obvious error. perhaps aziz did not do the other deals he was there for and he had to be embarrassed? what better way than to drop a topical spanner in the works?

Also, I don't see why some are discounting the CONUS JDAM possibility. It would remain on my top 3 things to worry about in terms of terror attacks for the forseeable future.

Given the timing of l'affaire Xerox and the increasing evidence that this was all public knowledge, and lets face it, most of this has been in different newspapers on and off for 10 years+, doesn't this indicate Unkil turning the screws on Mushy to pull his finger out and start delivering?

so far Mushy has resisted 'restructuring', but perhaps the patience is wearing thin in Washington at last?

Our Nigerian friends may be cashing in on the same sentiment...

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Kuttan » 05 Mar 2004 17:42

Warning: Serious Post. One even Calvin should consider reading. :eek:

By selling different pieces to different terrorist states, the TSP is indeed building "plausible deniability" for the "JDAM".

Given how thoroughly the GOTUS SD types have discredited themselves by repeating every day:



Do i = 1, 1000

We bow to Musharraf. Musharraf is Our Herrow.
We thank him for his sterling (and Euro and Swiss Francs) cooperation.
He is our Al-Lie..

Enddo
they have completely destroyed their ability to disagree with TSP when the JDAM "bum" goes off in a particularly inconvenient location, and TSP says in wide-eyed innocence,

What! We?? We are your Al-Lies! We will help you track down the perpetrators of this heinous (he-he!!) crime! But.. we are poor country onlee, please to give us $300B this time, it is big heavy bum onlee..
How can the GOTUS now distinguish between a Libyan terrorist nuke, an Iranian terrorist nuke, a North Korean terrorist nuke, and a Yemeni terrorist nuke?

TSJ might say: "Nuke'em all, let Whatever sort'em out!" but I think the SD will quickly convince the White House (or White B777 maybe) that the best thing to do is to accept President Musharraf's kind offer. Stephen Cohen would point to his archived personal web page from the Brew-Kings' institution where he claimed credit for arguing that President Musharraf was the man to trust and support.

So - this revelation of the real NPT (Nukes for Pakistani Terrorists) effectively REMOVES Pakistani accountability for future terrorist strikes on the CONUS or US interests abroad.

Neat.

Of course the solution would be to read urs truly's paper, carefully titled, with now-revealed-to-be accurate foresight,

Pakistani Role in Terrorism Against the USA

Until the US starts shifting to this new idea of going after the REAL heads of Al Qaeda, they are providing lots of motivation to said heads to "decentralize" the operations and even get "Plausible deniability", knowing that even the Tooth Fairy is "plausible" for the SD types.

If they now try to make the simple shift to "The original source is responsible, and we will go after them with the full might of the US strategic deterrent", they will find that they have wedged themselves nicely - they face the prospect of attacking PRC, and much of western Europe (Germany, France, Holland etc).

MUCH better option is to say: "Proof is clear that TSP is the source of ALL global terrorism. Therefore, we are placing this sign at the Karachi waterfront saying: "Biggest Parking Lot in the Known Universe, Under Construction - here to the Khyber Pass"

IOW,

Give Peace a Chance. Destroy Pakistan

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby daulat » 05 Mar 2004 17:59

Originally posted by narayanan:

So - this revelation of the real NPT (Nukes for Pakistani Terrorists) effectively REMOVES Pakistani accountability for future terrorist strikes on the CONUS or US interests abroad.

Neat.

ok, but this logic would reinforce the mushy-is-my-herrow behaviour in DC, since it assumes that only mushy keeps the bearded deluge away from the bits and pieces that would meld together (T2 like) into a working bomb

and the underlying assumption being that if JDAM is ready, then AlQ would deploy it - I think they would

now another dilemma occurs to me

say the jehadi high command decides that instead of CONUS they hit London or Paris, the US has no justification to Nuke anyone. If Paris, the French would likely behave the same way as the US, not sure what the Brits would do. This could see the breakup of the western bloc, could either propel the US into a stronger globocop role or see it join the 3rd WW with its allies...

TSP plausible deniability has serious flaws assuming that the helm is being manned by a rational man... and that is not always consistent with TSP leadership

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby jrjrao » 05 Mar 2004 18:45

Latest gems from that NukAyatollah John Bolton. Pak nuke secrets may have bolted, but Bolton is predictably and lovingly molten with Mush.

Khan 'sold secrets on his own'
"We have no reason to believe that President Pervez Musharraf or the top officials of the Pakistani government were in any way involved with Khan," US Under-Secretary of State John Bolton told reporters in Lisbon where he is taking part in a two-day security conference.

"There may well be officials in the Pakistani government, military people, scientists, who were part of his network," he added.

"But I distinguish between that and sanctioned approval, complicity, by the top levels of the Pakistani government as to which we have no evidence." :roll: :rotfl:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Rangudu » 05 Mar 2004 19:09

Yes, we must learn to distinguish between the Paki President, Dictator, Generallisimo, the Army and the government.

:roll:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby James Bund » 05 Mar 2004 19:19

Just as we may yet have to learn to distinguish between the GOI and RIPE. :lol:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Kuttan » 05 Mar 2004 20:16

as to which we have no evidence
As the Defense Attorney said after watching through the window as his "BB" and other occupant of his bedroom undressed, embraced - and switched off the light -

Damnit! The Element of Doubt! ALWAYS the Element of Doubt!
:whine:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby AJay » 05 Mar 2004 22:24

Originally posted by Johann:
the American public is unwilling to accept it as proof positive of his national-security leadership. There's only one thing that would allow Bush to live up to his image in this coming election - the neutralisation of Osama bin Laden.
Just apprehending OBL will not secure CONUS. We - the American public - had been told that once Saddam goes the Iraqi problem would disapper. The reality is that there are ever more suicide attacks with lot more Iraqi civilian and American Soldier casualties. In fact somebody was saying on NPR in the BBC segment that the very soon after after OBL is caught, there would be a large scale attack by Al-Q somewhere in the world - naturally CONUS would be first preference - to show that Al-Q is bugger than one man. It is anybody's guess where the men and material would come from and where the monetary support would come from.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Sunil » 06 Mar 2004 00:12

Hi,

Yesterday I attempted to demonstrate the notional workability of a Pakistani sponsorred Jihadi nuclear strike on American soil. Many of you pointed out that it could happen in UK, France or even Russia. By allowing A Q Khan to get away, the US has basically put us all at risk - it has cleared a path for the Pakistanis to carry out a nuclear strike against anyone they please - and then shrug and say - I didn't do it - A Q Khan did it -its not my fault.

My little horror story of yesterday was meant to remind everyone what is at stake here. I think it served its purpose.

I think little has been done to study the implications of Pakistani proliferation for global security. I invite opinions on the same.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby svinayak » 06 Mar 2004 00:18

Sunil,
I want to change your hypothesis a little bit and put it this way.

What if the AQK proliferation was a controlled proliferation with every contact and receipient country monitored by uncle and it was a large elaborate setup done with the approval and control of Uncle for some strategic purpose.

This can explain lot of current events.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby TSJones » 06 Mar 2004 00:23

AQ Khan hasn't gotten away with a pardon. Not by a long shot. There was no pardon issued by the US of Whatever. Osammy comes first.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Prateek » 06 Mar 2004 00:45

Originally posted by TSJones:
AQ Khan hasn't gotten away with a pardon. Not by a long shot. There was no pardon issued by the US of Whatever. Osammy comes first.
I agree. Elections first ...!
Nuke proliferations can wait a little longer ..

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby James Bund » 06 Mar 2004 00:55

TSJ, will ya stop foaming at the mouth buddy?

Khan has been not-so-quietly doing his thing for 25 yrs. And you're telling us he's not gotten away with it? :confused:

Of course, I don't believe Pakistan's home-grown nuclear technology is any more sophisticated than their various barbarian namesake missiles. It only makes sense if the US was assured that it was all a con game-to con the starving masses of Pakistan that they were keeping up with the Patels, and to con some bucks out of equally gullible Arabs.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Kuttan » 06 Mar 2004 01:00

Osammy comes first.
Well... the average life expectancy in those parts (unless an AK-47 bullet or "bum" interferes) is, as I hear, around 75 years.

Abdul Xerox has a long, peaceful and well-provided retirement to anticipate.

Timeline:

No. 3 man in the Al Qaeda captured! April 2004.

No. 3 man in the Al Qaeda captured! June 2004

No. 3 man in the Al Qaeda captured! September 2004

.... (don't want this to get as long as Calvin's excellent timeline on previous thread...)

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Leonard » 06 Mar 2004 01:21


An Oldy but a Golden Noose Showing PRC Proliferation


N. Korea, Pakistan, China
Sunday, December 08 2002 @ 01:02 PM CST

Beginning Dec. 9, the Communist Chinese general <u> who threatened to incinerate Los Angeles </u> with nuclear weapons will visit Washington D.C. Gen. Xiong Guangkai, the People's Republic of China's deputy chief of staff for intelligence,

has been absent from the Washington scene since the Clinton era. It will be interesting to see if he can weasel a photo-op or two with high-ranking administration officials. His visit appears to be Beijing's price for a lower level of obstructionism at the U.N. on the Iraq question and his mission is a restart of the U.S.-P.R.C. military-to-military talks.

However, in addition to his verbal threats aimed at America, evidence is now beginning to emerge pointing to the general as more of a principal and less as an accessory in the nuclear weapons for ballistic missile swap between Pakistan and North Korea.

Looking at the origins and development of the North Korean long-range missile program, we can say that without critical help from Chinese Peoples' Liberation Army scientists, there probably would not be such a program today.

In 1994, the Wall Street Journal published a discovery by the American Defense Intelligence Agency that one stage of the new North Korean missile was a copy of the Chinese CSS-2 missile. Quoting the DIA, the Journal wrote, "Presumably, the only way they [North Korean engineers] would know how to build something the size of the CSS-2 is either by physical transfer of such a beast, or of engineers familiar with the program."


Around the same time, Pakistan's gas centrifuge nuclear weapons program also had a "Made in China" look to it. The gas centrifuge nuclear enrichment process requires ring magnets for its operation and the P.R.C. is the world's leader in samarium-cobalt ring magnets. The Washington Times broke the story of Beijing's delivery of thousands of ring magnets to Pakistan in 1996. These are the same type of ring magnets Beijing sold to Saddam Hussein just before the Gulf war.

Nuclear weapons can be created based on plutonium or enriched uranium. North Korea had a plutonium-based nuclear weapons program but the Agreed Framework with the U.S. allegedly halted that in 1994. It also has abundant natural uranium but no technology for a uranium enrichment bomb. Pakistan has short-range missiles, the M-11s, it received from China. However, the M-11s won't reach the critical military facilities on India's east coast and the P.R.C. doesn't want to be caught transferring longer-range missiles to Pakistan.

Thanks to excellent reporting by The Washington Times and the New York Times, we now know that American-built C-130 transport aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force have been shuttling between Islamabad and Pyongyang trading nuclear enrichment technology and equipment for long-range missiles. <u> The C-130s have to refuel at PLA Air Force bases in Western China at least twice, once coming and once going.
</u>
We do not know if the C-130s have loaded additional cargo while they are on the ground in China, but there is certainly an opportunity for Beijing to add some ring magnets on the Islamabad-to-Pyongyang leg and some critical missile gear on the return to Pakistan.


Gen. Xiong is more than complicit in this weapons of mass destruction trade. In 1950, the North Korean leadership dragged the P.R.C. into a war with the United Nations. At the end of it, a million Chinese soldiers had been killed or wounded, including the son of Chinese leader Mao Tse-tung. It is simply inconceivable that Beijing's political leadership would not demand, and get, full intelligence on North Korea from Gen. Xiong's military spies. If he had failed in this assignment, he would have been fired. But in fact, Gen. Xiong is the PLA face that Communist China is presenting to the Americans.

We believe Gen. Xiong is either the PLA broker for the North Korea-Pakistan swap or he sits on an as-yet-unidentified committee that brokers this trade.

The evidence points in this direction. First, in early August 1998 Gen. Xiong was in North Korea for a visit. After a "decent interval" of about a month, North Korea electrified Japan by firing a multistage missile over the home islands. This is the same missile or versions of it that is the subject of the trade with Pakistan.


<u>
In the spring of this year, Gen. Xiong showed up in Islamabad to sign "Joint Military Production" and "Joint Defense" Agreements with Pakistan. Analysts in Washington and New Delhi immediately wondered, "joint military production of what?" and "joint defense against whom?" After another "decent interval," the C-130s started making their regular Islamabad-Pyongyang runs.
</u>


There is a saying in the intelligence business that "there are no coincidences." Gen. Xiong's appearance at both ends of the Pakistan-North Korea weapons of mass destruction pipeline is both significant and ominous.

Given the distaste for the U.S.-P.R.C. military-to-military meetings since the Clinton years, it is doubtful, absent Iraq, that the Pentagon would be hosting Gen. Xiong and his team next week. They were drafted on this one. In light of the nuclear threat against Los Angeles and the high likelihood that Gen. Xiong is brokering weapons of mass destruction, it will be interesting to see who volunteers to have his or her picture taken with him. (Washington Times)

Edward Timperlake and William C. Triplett, II are the authors of "Red Dragon Rising," Regnery 2002.

http://www.pakistan-facts.com/article.php/20021208130201347

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Leonard » 06 Mar 2004 01:57


China's Nuclear Exports and Assistance to Pakistan - Statements and Developments


http://www.nti.org/db/china/npakchr.htm

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby shiv » 06 Mar 2004 05:48

Originally posted by sunil s:
Hi,

Yesterday I attempted to demonstrate the notional workability of a Pakistani sponsorred Jihadi nuclear strike on American soil. Many of you pointed out that it could happen in UK, France or even Russia. By allowing A Q Khan to get away, the US has basically put us all at risk - it has cleared a path for the Pakistanis to carry out a nuclear strike against anyone they please - and then shrug and say - I didn't do it - A Q Khan did it -its not my fault.

I think little has been done to study the implications of Pakistani proliferation for global security. I invite opinions on the same.
Dead right Sunil

It was EXACTLY these thoughts that prompted me to speak of a "New World Order" and start the thread linked below:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005982

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Rangudu » 06 Mar 2004 07:11

Another sign that the Macchiavelian Foggies may be the cause of a Mushroom cloud in the US of A someday soon.

<a href="http://www.reuters.com/locales/newsArticle.jsp;:40492e77:8dbda9f938da783c?type=topNews&locale=en_IN&storyID=4510216">link</a>

Documents link China to Pakistan nuclear program

By Carol Giacomo, Diplomatic Correspondent

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Newly declassified U.S. government documents made public on Friday shed new light on almost three decades of U.S. unease over China's suspected cooperation with Pakistan's nuclear weapons program.

For 15 years, over the course of four U.S. administrations, China ducked and denied repeated American inquiries about Beijing's cooperation with Pakistan's nuclear weapons program.

But one of the briefing papers released on Friday states: "We have concluded that China has provided assistance to Pakistan's program to develop a nuclear weapon capability" in the areas of fissile material production and possibly also in nuclear device design.


Researchers who obtained the documents and made them public said that exactly what the U.S. government knew about Chinese nuclear sharing with Pakistan remains highly secret.

But the newly released cables and memos provide specific details on how U.S. officials looked at the China-Pakistani nuclear relationship, how they persistently tried to discourage it and how Chinese diplomats repeatedly denied any involvement, said William Burr of the National Security Archive, a research institute at George Washington University.

The material obtained by the Archive under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act run from 1965 through 1997 and discusses U.S. concerns about China-Pakistan security and military cooperation dating back to the mid 1960s.

The documents' release come at a time of great interest in proliferation because of revelations by Abdul Qadeer Khan, father of Pakistan's nuclear weapons program, who recently admitted to selling nuclear secrets to Iran, North Korea and Libya.

Pakistan followed rival India in conducting nuclear tests in 1998.

Amid growing concerns about the breadth of the global nuclear black market, the Washington Post reported last month that investigators had discovered the nuclear weapon design obtained by Libya through Khan's network originated in China.

Burr said that until the revelations from the Libyan files, "no evidence had surfaced that conclusively linked China with Pakistan's nuclear weapons program." :roll:

PROBLEM DOWNPLAYED

However, the Bush administration, which boasts that U.S. ties with nuclear-armed China have never been better, has played down the Chinese nuclear connection. :roll:

Undersecretary of State John Bolton, the top U.S. arms control official, said on a visit to Beijing two weeks ago that despite past sales of nuclear-related technology, China now <u>seems to be</u> :roll: cooperating with the United States to prevent proliferation.

In a 1983 State Department briefing paper, the writer begins: "There is unambiguous evidence that Pakistan is actively pursuing a nuclear weapons development program."

Even then, the Americans knew that "technology obtained by Pakistan in Europe has provided the base for the development of the new labs" yet they suspected Chinese involvement.

At various points, Chinese officials denied or were ambiguous about their nuclear involvement with Pakistan and then in 1996, under the Clinton administration, Beijing made a public declaration that it would not assist nuclear facilities like Pakistan's that were not under international safeguards.

But CIA Director George Tenet, in a report covering the period as recently as June 2003, said his agency could not rule out continued contacts between China and Pakistan on the nuclear issue.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Rangudu » 06 Mar 2004 07:18

The declassified State Department documents on TSP-China nuke ties are below. They were released today.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/press.htm

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Div » 06 Mar 2004 07:25

Now is this a huge surprise...

:roll:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Y I Patel » 06 Mar 2004 07:34

Originally posted by sunil s:
Hi,

Yesterday I attempted to demonstrate the notional workability of a Pakistani sponsorred Jihadi nuclear strike on American soil. Many of you pointed out that it could happen in UK, France or even Russia. By allowing A Q Khan to get away, the US has basically put us all at risk - it has cleared a path for the Pakistanis to carry out a nuclear strike against anyone they please - and then shrug and say - I didn't do it - A Q Khan did it -its not my fault.

My little horror story of yesterday was meant to remind everyone what is at stake here. I think it served its purpose.

I think little has been done to study the implications of Pakistani proliferation for global security. I invite opinions on the same.
You painted a picture of policymaking that is affected not by considerations of ego or vested interests, but by a systemic "we will see what we want to see" conditioning. There is no counter to this unsettling argument, except a pious hope that continuing contact with reality will cause a change!

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Vivek_A » 06 Mar 2004 07:51

Originally posted by Rangudu:
The declassified State Department documents on TSP-China nuke ties are below. They were released today.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/press.htm
Wow...this is a shock!!

Not only were border and military cooperation growing, apparently the Pakistani military had given the Chinese access to U.S. F-104 supersonic fighter aircraft, in violation of the acceptance agreement with the Pentagon.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby putnanja » 06 Mar 2004 09:03

A Q Khan fall guy for Musharraf: Benazir Bhutto

Bhutto, who now lives in exile fearing arrest if she returns home, admitted that Pakistan had operational nuclear weapons in 1989, nearly a decade before it actually conducted the tests.

"Not only a stockpile but bomb components existed. It was only a question that we put them together or did not put them together. Not putting together the bomb components meant a time lag, which the West said gave it confidence that nothing would be done impetuously," she said.

By 1988, uranium "enrichment was at 93%. We decided about proliferation and decided it was important first to achieve a certain level. So they did a cold test around January 1989," she said. "I don't know how cold tests are done. But they said before I gave any guarantees to the West, I must have a cold test to see if everything works. Between January and March [1989] the cold tests were done. "

By then, "there was a sense of paranoia that our sites would be blasted out. Everyone was concerned. The army was concerned, the president was concerned, the Pressler amendment was there. The Soviets were withdrawing [from Afghanistan] by February. There was concern that as soon as the Soviets withdrew we would no longer be a frontline state in the fight against Communism. And that is when our nuclear installations could come under attack. So we had a very narrow timeframe during which we could actually negotiate to satisfy international concerns," she said.

"I can say there was a great deal of insecurity. At the same time having nuclear status was a matter of security for Pakistanis. Sadly, though it was a weapon of mass destruction, it was a matter of pride because people felt we were as good as India. India had developed one; we had developed one. If their scientists are good, our scientists are equally good."

Bhutto, prime minister between 1988 and 1990 and 1993 and 1996, also took credit for introducing a policy of nuclear restraint that she says was covertly undermined by jihadi elements.

"In return for our restraint the Americans agreed to suspend the Pressler Amendment and give us the aid. $4.6 billion was the quid pro quo, whereas under Zia (then Pakistan president Zia-ul Haq) we got less, we got $4.2 billion for fighting the Soviets. But the Soviets were gone and we get $4.6 billion and, instead of getting 20 or 40 F-16s that we got under Zia, we got 60 F-16s."

But "They weren't delivered because my government got overthrown in 1990 and the Americans alleged we had crossed the line and that we had gone back to 90 percent uranium enrichment."

She also disclosed that in 1990, impoverished Soviet scientists tried to sell enriched uranium to Pakistan. By rejecting their offer, she may have "inadvertently" alerted vested interests in Pakistan to the existence of an international nuclear black market, she said.

"They approached the government, parliamentarians, so they come and tell me, 'We don't have to worry if we can't make uranium, we can buy uranium. I thought it was a trap set up by intelligence. So I sent them to the ISI to investigate. Unfortunately, if it was not a trap, I introduced the ISI to the network."

As for A Q Khan, she said, "I first came across him in 1988 when he came to see me with Munir (Munir Ahmad Khan, head of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission). They seemed like government servants ready to carry out government orders. I think it was after Nawaz Sharif detonated the nuclear devices that A Q became Father of the Nuclear Bomb. But actually everything was done before."

However, on the proliferation admitted by Khan, she said "I suspect it was Musharraf because the time lag I am looking at both Libya and North Korea were squarely under Musharraf's watch as chief of army staff and chief executive of Pakistan."

Admitting attempts by the military and the ISI to keep her in the dark over nuclear developments during her tenures, she said. "What I have read is that it went on in 1987 under Zia, but actually the cooperation started after my dismissal in 1990 and ended in 1993 or 1994 after I became prime minister (for a second time)."

"In February 2000 Musharraf went to Libya. In July 2000 Musharraf's commerce minister and friend took out a full-page ad offering nuclear-related products for sale," she pointed out.

As for North Korea, "They gave us missile technology, whatever they had developed, in return for cash. We paid them in installments because we also had foreign exchange to keep in mind for other things. We were buying tanks and planes, all sorts of things."

Describing herself as the "the mother of missile technology" in Pakistan, she said "my father (Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto) was the father of the nuclear thing. They are against Benazir because of corruption, but Qadeer Khan can keep the hundreds of millions he made through corruption. He is still a hero because he helped with the nuclear and missile programs.


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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby James Bund » 06 Mar 2004 09:05

Ok TSJ you can come out now.(Didn't mean that in a mean way).

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Rangudu » 06 Mar 2004 09:13

Guys,

I compiled some Editorials from World papers on the AXK saga in early February and made a PDF file.

Here it is

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby TSJones » 06 Mar 2004 09:48

James Bund:

TSJ, will ya stop foaming at the mouth buddy?


I'm not foaming at the mouth, thank you. You're the one who put the redface on his message, not me. I'm stating the facts: Osama comes first. You don't like it? Too bad. AQ Khan is a national hero, as is Osama. Do you mind if we take on one national hero at a time? We believe Osama is a bigger danger in the present cicumstances than AQ Khan.


Khan has been not-so-quietly doing his thing for 25 yrs. And you're telling us he's not gotten away with it?


Not yet, he hasn't. And it appears that he has involved a daughter according to some news sources. Bad form, very bad form.

Of course, I don't believe Pakistan's home-grown nuclear technology is any more sophisticated than their various barbarian namesake missiles. It only makes sense if the US was assured that it was all a con game-to con the starving masses of Pakistan that they were keeping up with the Patels, and to con some bucks out of equally gullible Arabs.


If I was you I wouldn't count on that scenario. Why do you think the US is all of a sudden revealing all of its sources to the media about Pakistan's transgressions? Because we think nothing is there? Pressure points are building up. The US broke the story about Pakistan helping N. Korea. Nobody else.

I await your next straw man like me foaming at the mouth or some such nonsense like that.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby James Bund » 06 Mar 2004 09:59

Pakistan has nuclear devices-the Chagai 'tests' proved that. The question is how indigenous are they? As indigenous as the home-grown Abdali missile? Pakistan denied importing missiles and parts for years, yet Musharraf has recently acknowledged that No-Dongs were 'requested' (or some such word) from North Korea. Now I know a bit of Urdu, and No-Dong does not translate as Ghaznavi. Yet Pakistan's masses only learned that 3 weeks ago.

I eagerly await to demonstate to you that the colour of teh Islamic bomb is not green but red. Perhaps America is ready to come out of the closet with respect to China-there have been hints over the past week.

My working hypothesis is that the US agreed to indulge Pakistan's receipt of the bomb or the kit (HEU, triggers, blueprints and screwdriver) and also acquiesed in Pakistan's 1980s Panjab (Indian) policy as a quid pro quo.

(Sorry if I offended your sensibilities).

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby arun » 06 Mar 2004 11:06

Arnaud de Borchgrave in The Washington Times poses the question, What did Musharraf know? and concludes :



It is inconceivable Mr. Khan, for three decades, could have indulged in such extensive nuclear proliferation without the knowledge and acquiescence of ISI and the military high command. Mr. Musharraf was army chief of staff prior to seizing the presidency in October 1999.

What did Mr. Musharraf know — and when did he know it — are the kind of lese-majeste questions Pakistani journalists who wish to stay healthy don't ask.


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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby shiv » 06 Mar 2004 14:04

Originally posted by TSJones:
The US broke the story about Pakistan helping N. Korea. Nobody else.
Not really. Others said it long before the US, But the US will hear only when it wants to hear. Check the dates of the reports below:

From SIFY
Pakistan sent nuke equipment to N Korea (in a coffin)
Sunday, December 29 2002
http://www.pakistan-facts.com/article.php/20021229190651198

North Korea secretly transported equipment for its nuclear arms program from Pakistan in 1998 by hiding it in the coffin of the murdered wife of a North Korean diplomat to Islamabad, a daily said Sunday. The equipment included a sample gas centrifuge used to enrich uranium necessary to produce nuclear weapons, the Mainichi Shimbun said in a report from Islamabad. North Korea hid the equipment in the coffin, which was carried on a special flight from Islamabad to Pyongyang in June 1998, the newspaper said.
The Asia Times
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EA03Df01.html

Sunday, January 05 2003

Pakistan's role in abetting North Korea's proliferation is incontestable. Indeed, it plays a dual role here. On the one hand, by being an eager customer for Pyongyang's knowhow and weapons it provides that country with much of the cash needed to keep its programs going. On the other hand, Pakistan has more recently supplied North Korea with essential components needed for its nuclear program. Thus Pakistan's relationship with North Korea reinforces both states' proliferation at both ends of this process, obtaining the cash needed to pay for ongoing proliferation and transferring or selling the necessary materials to the proliferator.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Raj Malhotra » 06 Mar 2004 15:24

I thought the day would never come when I will agree with Tim and TSJ, but never say never.

I believe Pak and SArabia has NOT got away with 9/11. not by a long yard. These nations will soon learn the benefits of taking panga, courtsey USA.

Try not to forget politicians are humans. just imagine bushie and powell and their state of mind when they have to deal with lier mushy. i think they are just waiting for the right time.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Umrao » 06 Mar 2004 16:46

<align = center><h3>The Original Proliferator</h3>
The Chinese Played the N Proliferation Card with impunity for Two Decades.</align>

In this international storm created by the revelation of Pakistani nuclear proliferation
The original Proliferator went almost un probed. Had it not been for the exposure by the Washington Post about the discovery of Chinese nuclear designs with the Libyans, strategic players with in the Bush administration may have reserved it from public domain to use it as a leverage with Bejing mandarins to secure co operation in other areas like North Korean issue.

Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue, when pressed by reporters on February 17 on the issue only Said “The Chinese side is very concerned about these reports” adding “the Chinese side is consistently opposed to the proliferation of Nuclear Equipment and Technology”. She refused to answer any other questions on the issue at the press conference.

While the second part of Zhang’s statement was standard Chinese on proliferation even when they proliferated with impunity in the 1980s and the 1990s, the first part of her answer betrayed anxiety. This is the first time, perhaps, when the Chinese have been caught with hard evidence in the public domain voluntarily disclosed by the recipient country.

There is a sense of apprehension in the Chinese media covering the Pakistani developments. The media which is very strictly controlled by the Chinese Communist Party and the state machinery, dutifully supported the Musharraf line. It is safe for both Pakistan and Chinese leadership to hand A Q Khan and a few other Pakistani Nuclear experts as rogue elements. But the leadership in both countries are aware that the international community may be digging deep and more may come out on China’s direct involvement in nuclear proliferation for years.

In Zhangs Qyue’s press statement it was apparent that the Chinese were playing for time to come out with a face saving response.
For almost three decades now, the Chinese have stridently defended their clean position, in spite of their state owned entities having been sanctioned periodically by the United States for nuclear and missile proliferation to Iran and Pakistan.

The Americans were fully aware of Chinese proliferation and Pakistani acquisition activities for long. During the cold war especially in 1980s China and Pakistan were with the USA against the Soviet Union. For the support of these two countries, Washington in its shortsightedness decided to pay the proliferation price. More attention was paid to the proliferation in the 1990s by the US but again geo political interests intervened. Post “9/11” however matters have been viewed by the white house somewhat differently.

Hence China’s past and even recent activities must be thoroughly exposed and examined to ensure a secure world for the future.
China’s material assistance to Pakistan dates back to 1975 with the formation of a joint co ordination board for Nuclear Technology. China played a critical part in Pakistan’s nuclear weapons programme when it transferred the design of its nuclear weapons.
Following that a torrent of Chinese Nuclear assistance flowed to Pakistan in terms of technology, equipment, design, training, advice, setting up front companies, including the testing of Pakistans first Nuclear device at Lop Nor test site.

Although China signed the NPT in 1992, it violated this agreement in body, soul and spirit. Between 1994 to mid 1995 China supplied five thousand ring magnets to the unsafe Khan Research Laboratories (KRL), Kahuta. Pakistans unsafe (guarded) natural uranium heavy water reactor at Kushab for the production Plutonium was set up with Chinese assistance. Besides even after giving clear assurances to the US in May 1996 against assistance to nuclear establishments outside IAEA safeguards, China clandestinely supplied equipment to Pakistan. According to reports such Chinese assistance continued to Pakistan even the last year.

The question now is was there Chinese connivance in Pakistan’s proliferation?
The answer probably is YES. The Chinese are masters at in setting up front companies for acquiring banned technology illegally. Similar companies can be used to reverse flow technology. It is not with in the capability of AQ Khan to set up such intricate chains of companies without outside assistance.

In this connection it would be pertinent to recall when Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto visited China in December 1993 a quadripartite agreement was reportedly arrived between China Pakistan Iran and North Korea for the production of missiles. China would play its part through North Korea. From Bejing Bhutto payed a quiet visit to Pong Yang where the Nuclear deal was reportedly firmed up. Much of Chinese transfers to Iran reportedly tool place through Pakistan and till recently Chinese experts were sighted in Iran. China therefore has lot to answer for the WMD proliferation

K Shasti

(Curtsey SharaTime in flight News Magazine/ Paper of Feb 28 2004)

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Kuttan » 06 Mar 2004 16:54

just imagine bushie and powell and their state of mind
I'm trying, I'm trying, but I can't also forget tricky d1ck and kiss-(myass)-inger - and all those haunted faces of East Pakistan 1971.

Last I heard, Lt. Gen. Tikka Khan was being given some decoration. Don't know where Yahya is - probably appreciating the wine at some beach or other.

So - on past form, I imagine that the brave Gen. Powell and the heroic Pres. Bush may be tossing pennies into the Reflecting Pool and putting hexes on Musharraf and Abdul Xerox, who are quite safe until they arrive in Houristan.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Tom A Hawwk » 06 Mar 2004 18:07

It seems the US can successfully bully puny adversaries like Iraq and Haiti.

But when faced with real threats like the Pakistani proliferation of nukes, Saudi proliferation of jihad or the Chinese proliferation of everything deadly, the US switches on the "bhai-bhai" mode.

Whatever happened to "either with us or against us"?

Come to think of it, after WW-2, the US has not really fought a real war. Maybe their hearts changed. Maybe their appetite for danger died.

Why else would they continue to tolerate Pakistani nuke proliferation?

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Vivek_A » 06 Mar 2004 18:29


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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby jrjrao » 06 Mar 2004 18:52

Nuclear concerns bring a stream of visitors to Pakistan's door
By Victoria Burnett
Financial Times
"Given the situation we have, the imperatives are first that there be no onward proliferation, second that [Pakistan] does not get into a situation in which it would use the weapons, and third that it does not get into a costly and potentially destabilising nuclear arms race," said a western diplomat in Islamabad.

The nightmare scenario entertained in some foreign capitals of religious militants taking control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is dismissed by many western diplomats as "science fiction". But the proliferation scandal has breathed new life into fears that terrorists could obtain nuclear materials, adding to the urgency with which western officials wish to stop secrets flowing out of Pakistan as well as in.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby TSJones » 06 Mar 2004 20:41

Shiv:

Those "news items" are not vetted and are of doubtful provenance.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby James Bund » 06 Mar 2004 20:50

Timewarp to 1980s

"those news items about Pakistan are not vetted and are of doubtful provenance".

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 02 Mar 2004

Postby Raj Malhotra » 06 Mar 2004 20:57

Originally posted by narayanan:
just imagine bushie and powell and their state of mind
I'm trying, I'm trying, but I can't also forget tricky d1ck and kiss-(myass)-inger - and all those haunted faces of East Pakistan 1971.

Last I heard, Lt. Gen. Tikka Khan was being given some decoration. Don't know where Yahya is - probably appreciating the wine at some beach or other.

NY was not bombed in 1971. Also US did not shed many tears for division of Pak. it even persuaded pak to recoganise bhookadesh(?)

after 9/11, mushy is making a big mistake by trying to continue to play US.

also i am not saying that US is going to help india, only that it is going to make mushy pay.

with new BB interviews, it seems pak only started getting bombgrade HEU in 1988-89, probably in very small lab quantities. no wonder zia died. BB excercised restrain. so production of HEU probably could have re-started in or around 1990 (?). this was the time that pak would also be suffering economic crisis due to iraq war. so i think the restrain was re applied till say 1996. when PA ordered the start of HEU production leading to the first fizzle of may 1998.

i think pak only has dirty bombs/LEU. that is why US is so obsessed with dirty bomb going off on its soil.

when were the magnetic rings delivered to pak by china?? what is the working life of magnetic rings?


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