Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 05 Jul 2018 02:19

adityadange wrote:NDTV link: IAF’s LCA Tejas for ‘The Flying Daggers’ squadron commences operations

Congratulations , two mirage 2K pretending to be Tejas in that article.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jul 2018 02:51

Derby cleared for full envelope on Tejas.

viewtopic.php?p=2281562#p2281562

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 05 Jul 2018 10:52

Khalsa wrote:
Rakesh wrote: From the article above....
I was pleased with the light weight sun screen shelters they had started to roll out. But this just takes the cake.

I think the sun screen shelters have been used by IAF at Jamnagar and some other places

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 05 Jul 2018 19:31

Indranil wrote:At full production rate line 1 is supposed to produce 8 aircraft per year or one plane per 1.5 months. Correct? If it has been a month since SP9, aren’t you guys being a little impatient?

Indranil wrote:Yes sir, there are two lines. But,

1. The second line has not reached 4 aircraft per year rate yet.
2. The deliveries are not synchronized. You will see deliveries which are clustered together, like 3 aircraft in 1.5 months and then nothing for another 1.5. But, if you average it out at the end, you will see whether the necessary rate has been achieved or not.

Indranil sir, The silence is a bit hard for we jingos. Hope the good news is on its way and that too soon. So we have 12 for this year. Another question, not that Flying daggers has moved to sulur will the new planes
1. go there
2. or will stay in b'lore
3. or will go to a new sqn

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Jul 2018 20:16

I don’t know what is the latest hold up on Line1. Line 2 delivery is on schedule. The latest that I heard was two aircrafts within this month.

All aircrafts currently go to Sulur.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 05 Jul 2018 22:45

Thanks IR
Just to recap the schedule posted here
This FY it is 12, Next FY 16 and afterwards 20

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Jul 2018 07:03

Tejas begins the sky party at AFS Sulur
https://english.manoramaonline.com/vide ... 11001.html

Video by Anantha Krishna of a walk around of the Tejas Mk1 fighter by Sqn Ldr Aditya Desai.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Jul 2018 07:05

ArjunPandit wrote: 1. go there
2. or will stay in b'lore
3. or will go to a new sqn

On #2 and #3, I believe all 40 aircraft (20 of No 45 Sqn and 20 of No 18 Sqn) will be at Sulur AFS.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2018 08:50

Rakesh wrote:Tejas begins the sky party at AFS Sulur
https://english.manoramaonline.com/vide ... 11001.html

Video by Anantha Krishna of a walk around of the Tejas Mk1 fighter by Sqn Ldr Aditya Desai.

^^ he mentions the drop tank to be 1200 liters, and then can be loaded with 1000 pounder bombs/missiles. That would be around 2k lbs rounded. same mistik that got nasa's b@lls on one of the first mars lander where the brits metric system screwed up measurements.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 06 Jul 2018 19:59

Neshant wrote:If you squint your eyes.. and use your imagination..
you can just about see what a twin engined & twin vertical stabilizer Tejas would look like
in this photo.

Must be just me... When i do the squinting bit, it looks like the Tomcat.. Straight tails, distance between the exhausts...

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Jul 2018 22:21

Rakesh wrote:Tejas begins the sky party at AFS Sulur
https://english.manoramaonline.com/vide ... 11001.html

Video by Anantha Krishna of a walk around of the Tejas Mk1 fighter by Sqn Ldr Aditya Desai.

May be it is just me, but the build quality looks top notch even at that close up. very TFTA.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Jul 2018 00:30

SaiK wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Tejas begins the sky party at AFS Sulur
https://english.manoramaonline.com/vide ... 11001.html

Video by Anantha Krishna of a walk around of the Tejas Mk1 fighter by Sqn Ldr Aditya Desai.
^^ he mentions the drop tank to be 1200 liters, and then can be loaded with 1000 pounder bombs/missiles. That would be around 2k lbs rounded. same mistik that got nasa's b@lls on one of the first mars lander where the brits metric system screwed up measurements.

I think he meant the bombs are 1000 lb each. Tejas can carry two such bombs in tandem per pylon.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 07 Jul 2018 12:54

Rakesh wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote: 1. go there
2. or will stay in b'lore
3. or will go to a new sqn
On #2 and #3, I believe all 40 aircraft (20 of No 45 Sqn and 20 of No 18 Sqn) will be at Sulur AFS.

I think after the first 16(+4 trainers later) are delivered to No.45 deliveries for No.18 will start. In the mean time the training of No.18 would have started and they would be using the space vacated by No.45 for the formation before moving to permanent home most probability Sulur AFS

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 07 Jul 2018 12:58

This plane looks to be a great platform upon which to test UCAV development concepts.

Its just the right size and looks like it could pull some high Gs once it's flight control software is modified and the pilot removed.

It will need a sensor suite , telemetry package and an AI system before it ever goes pilotless - but that can be developed and Incorporated in stages.

Rope in small countries like Singapore and Israel to begin work on this concept.

The plane won't be what the final product will look like, but it will be a great development starting point for a UCAV.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 09 Jul 2018 08:26

request everyone not to post Rajat Pandit's article here. It is full of non-sense arguments

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 09 Jul 2018 11:26

ArjunPandit wrote:request everyone not to post Rajat Pandit's article here. It is full of non-sense arguments

With the hard developments in Sulur, I think the first batch of Tejas is a done deal. Let the babus figure out how much to pay each other (MoD to HAL), FOC may be delayed but it's close.

Tejas++ is the question now - Mk.2, or AMCA. My 2c is that since we have established that engine cost is a small fraction of the overall price, why not go for a dual engine design with the engine we have? That way we get the thrust, range and payload we need rather than being encumbered by a "Light" constraint wholly of our creation.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Jul 2018 21:29

Rakesh wrote:
yensoy wrote:Google aerial photo shows 3 such hangars... wonder what's the plan here, production?
From the article above....
The new hangars that have come up can accommodate 40-60 Tejas fighters at any given point of time.

Sulur also houses 5 BRD that could hypothetically take up refit work of Tejas in future.

For new fighters, bases in the hinterland allow pilots to build up individual and joint skills away from enemy radar, elint & comint.

Which is why Su-30MKI & MiG-29 were initially based out of Pune and Mirage 2000 from Gwalior in the hinterland.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 09 Jul 2018 21:54

Why Sulur?

1. Just 30 minutes flight or 5 Hours drive away from HAL
2. Relatively empty airspace
3. Deep south, away from prying eyes.
4. Plenty of space.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 09 Jul 2018 22:11

Indranil wrote:
SaiK wrote: ^^ he mentions the drop tank to be 1200 liters, and then can be loaded with 1000 pounder bombs/missiles. That would be around 2k lbs rounded. same mistik that got nasa's b@lls on one of the first mars lander where the brits metric system screwed up measurements.
I think he meant the bombs are 1000 lb each. Tejas can carry two such bombs in tandem per pylon.

(+) Walkaround explaining the aircraft
(-) Rushed presentation. Delivery style needs polishing. Our high schools does little to prepare us for this.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 09 Jul 2018 22:37

Dileep wrote:Why Sulur?

1. Just 30 minutes flight or 5 Hours drive away from HAL
2. Relatively empty airspace
3. Deep south, away from prying eyes.
4. Plenty of space.

And don't forget the huge amount of ancillary industry in the area which supplies HAL, and will be more important to HAL over the years as it scales up production.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jul 2018 03:55

Also the plan is to make the AMCA in Sulur as a greenfield facility.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 10 Jul 2018 06:59

Dileep wrote:Why Sulur?

1. Just 30 minutes flight or 5 Hours drive away from HAL
2. Relatively empty airspace
3. Deep south, away from prying eyes.
4. Plenty of space.

Perhaps we can see Tejas doing low level canyon runs in the hills of Ooty & Coonoor too.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 10 Jul 2018 08:21

yensoy wrote:
Dileep wrote:Why Sulur?

1. Just 30 minutes flight or 5 Hours drive away from HAL
2. Relatively empty airspace
3. Deep south, away from prying eyes.
4. Plenty of space.
And don't forget the huge amount of ancillary industry in the area which supplies HAL, and will be more important to HAL over the years as it scales up production.

Means nothing for the squadron. They can't 'ride the cycle and pick up the spare part' from the ancillary unit so to speak.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 10 Jul 2018 09:39

Dileep wrote:
yensoy wrote:
And don't forget the huge amount of ancillary industry in the area which supplies HAL, and will be more important to HAL over the years as it scales up production.
Means nothing for the squadron. They can't 'ride the cycle and pick up the spare part' from the ancillary unit so to speak.

No it means a lot for the ancillary industries to have access to real world flying specimens so they can refine the components and sub-assemblies. "Military Industrial Complex", literally.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jul 2018 10:37

ArjunPandit wrote:request everyone not to post Rajat Pandit's article here. It is full of non-sense arguments

However need to rebut it. I have seen no counter even on Twitter.
It's a hack job. Sad part is total.price of LC A design development is 75k crore for 123 planes. Later he writes price for 83 is 50k crore. That means DD and 40 Mk1 is 25K crore a huge bargain.
Same story his sources have no problem overpaying huge money in foreign exchange for less planes.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 10 Jul 2018 10:40

Prasad wrote:
Dileep wrote:Why Sulur?

1. Just 30 minutes flight or 5 Hours drive away from HAL
2. Relatively empty airspace
3. Deep south, away from prying eyes.
4. Plenty of space.
Perhaps we can see Tejas doing low level canyon runs in the hills of Ooty & Coonoor too.

I doubt this because of the presence of Cordite Factory Aruvankadu which also contains the NG plant.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 11 Jul 2018 09:49

http://idrw.org/iaf-may-take-over-tejas ... ore-175228

Iaf will be at the apex in co-ordinaing ADA and HAL to get the desired airframes in the promised time frame.

This will be a 3 ring circus, It would have been better if the PMO took over this project and cracked the whip, this might lead to more infighting and blame game will continue as IAF is equally responsible for the delay in this project.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jul 2018 10:18

It's becoming similar to USAF project office for F35.
It's good that IAF takes charge of the program. ADA will be design cog.
HAL production cog.

Future AMCA will be Same model.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 11 Jul 2018 10:58

It all depends upon the person who will be in charge, and the mission he is given.

If the mission is to "churn out as many birds as possible", and the guy have no zeal to put his mark on the plane, things will work. On the other hand, think about Matheswaran V 2.0 taking the chair

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Jul 2018 11:19

I think its a positive move. IAF owns the program, we will see faster clearances and less bad PR about how HAL/ADA are deliberately slowing things down. IAF CAS/AHQ will anyday trust one of their own and his leadership rather than the current civvy set up. Its how it is, and if this is what it takes to see 200-300 LCAs in service, and then the AMCA, let it happen.
At the same time, MOD/GOI should expect a commitment from the IAF that they will make it work, not let the program wither on the vine because XYZ wants new imports. This should be strictly guarded against.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2018 11:53

wright patterson AFB.

rohan1424 · Post by **rohan1424** » 11 Jul 2018 12:59

This is an interesting development going by the project history. The IAF never backed the Tejas project wholeheartedly and always had liking for phoren maal. Now the situation is such that they have no option left but to support it . The govt also has fully backed the project and given it a fresh impetus.HAl , which was content in screwdrivergiri also have no option but to support Tejas as su-30mki delivery is also going to end and there dream of continuing the screwdrivergiri with FGFA has come crashing down .The best option for both IAF and ADA/HAL is to make sure that the Tejas project is completed successfully in national interest.Tejas mk1, MWF and AMCA are critical to our defense preparedness.GoI should gradually involve pvt sector in defense development as the unprofessional work culture of HAl will do lot of harm which we cannot afford now .

sahay · Post by **sahay** » 11 Jul 2018 13:43

Eric Leiderman wrote:http://idrw.org/iaf-may-take-over-tejas ... ore-175228

Iaf will be at the apex in co-ordinaing ADA and HAL to get the desired airframes in the promised time frame.

This will be a 3 ring circus, It would have been better if the PMO took over this project and cracked the whip, this might lead to more infighting and blame game will continue as IAF is equally responsible for the delay in this project.

Please link to the original report: https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... elays.html

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 11 Jul 2018 13:59

rohan1424 wrote:This is an interesting development going by the project history. The IAF never backed the Tejas project wholeheartedly and always had liking for phoren maal. Now the situation is such that they have no option left but to support it . The govt also has fully backed the project and given it a fresh impetus.HAl , which was content in screwdrivergiri also have no option but to support Tejas as su-30mki delivery is also going to end and there dream of continuing the screwdrivergiri with FGFA has come crashing down .The best option for both IAF and ADA/HAL is to make sure that the Tejas project is completed successfully in national interest.Tejas mk1, MWF and AMCA are critical to our defense preparedness.GoI should gradually involve pvt sector in defense development as the unprofessional work culture of HAl will do lot of harm which we cannot afford now .

This is a good point, but HAL/IAF relationship is not limited to Tejas/Su-30. HAL has been delivering Dhruv and its variants at a pretty decent clip and IAF/IA have been accepting them too, right? Am I mistaken in my impression that this relationship has been (at least recently) quite smooth and productive? So yes, an Indian design and Indian production at scale are both possible for HAL/DRDO to deliver, and IAF to accept.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 11 Jul 2018 15:10

Mk1 in its design is not very production friendly, even the ADA director has confirmed it in so many words in his last interview a month or two back(I am sure I saw the link in BRF but cannot find it atm). HAL's babu attitude doesn't help too when it was required to put in more work. The problem is mitigated in Mk2.
IMO roping in IAF wouldn't help much in production schedule but let IAF have an eye over the process and integrate the changes in efficient manner without hampering the production.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 11 Jul 2018 16:05

Sometime back, there was a news regarding how IAF now wanted a new mission computer, display system, terrain mapping system etc which would've delayed Mk1A further. With this development, IAF will think twice before changing requirements(ASR or ESR) at the last moment.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Jul 2018 16:30

yensoy wrote:
Dileep wrote:Means nothing for the squadron. They can't 'ride the cycle and pick up the spare part' from the ancillary unit so to speak.
No it means a lot for the ancillary industries to have access to real world flying specimens so they can refine the components and sub-assemblies. "Military Industrial Complex", literally.

IAF does not share access of its real world flying specimens with ancillary industries. Any feedback will be to designer ADA and manufacturer HAL.

chola · Post by **chola** » 11 Jul 2018 16:59

souravB wrote:Mk1 in its design is not very production friendly, even the ADA director has confirmed it in so many words in his last interview a month or two back(I am sure I saw the link in BRF but cannot find it atm). HAL's babu attitude doesn't help too when it was required to put in more work. The problem is mitigated in Mk2.
IMO roping in IAF wouldn't help much in production schedule but let IAF have an eye over the process and integrate the changes in efficient manner without hampering the production.

This is symtomatic of our design-development-production set up.

I think when designers at Boeing or Dassault come up with a new prototype, they are aware of what the company is capable of building and how they can build it efficiently at their company. These are design and development teams inside manufacturers. Designing something that the company can’t make efficiently is unprofitable and therefore pointless.

Do we have the same integration between ADA and HAL? There must be some but in the end they are two separate agencies. Does ADA even care about the manufacturing piece? Or like a lab project, they are more interested in getting to the specs with whatever means necessary? We know the LCA was designed with many foreign parts, many components that HAL can’t make. Production was delayed two years just waiting for the nose cone from the UK to be delivered by Cobham.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Jul 2018 19:03

typically the production engineering takes a lot more effort than the design engineering... think about the way cars are designed and then built, quite different skills

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 11 Jul 2018 19:38

chola wrote:
This is symtomatic of our design-development-production set up.

I think when designers at Boeing or Dassault come up with a new prototype, they are aware of what the company is capable of building and how they can build it efficiently at their company. These are design and development teams inside manufacturers. Designing something that the company can’t make efficiently is unprofitable and therefore pointless.

Do we have the same integration between ADA and HAL? There must be some but in the end they are two separate agencies. Does ADA even care about the manufacturing piece? Or like a lab project, they are more interested in getting to the specs with whatever means necessary? We know the LCA was designed with many foreign parts, many components that HAL can’t make. Production was delayed two years just waiting for the nose cone from the UK to be delivered by Cobham.

Well we have to bite the bullet, don't we? I say we get on with it and learn as much as we can from this so it doesn't repeat with Mk2. There are loads of different ways one can tackle it and I'm sure concerned people know them. The sign of that is making IAF taking the lead and hopefully in future running as its own project.
The articles by the DDMs don't help much except raising the blood pressure of the readers. Maybe even all the relevant parties know this and only do what they need to(barring a few times when frustration gets the better of them)..
I would suggest we, at BRF too do not pay much heed to all the noise out there and only filter out the relevant bits that we feel is important to the discussion.