MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

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Shankk
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Shankk » 08 Jul 2018 22:23

Philip wrote:Who questioned my earlier posts and their facts about the weight of Arjun, etc.? Facts arc facts which are unpalatable to some who see the issue of A- series procurement purely as a " nationalistic" necessity, not in total context of the issue.


Only unquestionable fact is that you are a Russia lover; everything else is merely a function of this fact. Nothing less nothing more. You ealier mentioned that you are a resident of India. That does not necessarily mean you are a citizen of India. You could very well be someone in Russian embassy working for interests of mother Russia. If you are indeed an Indian citizen then all I can say is God save India. There are many of your ilk and will be "sorted" out, slowly but surely.
Last edited by Indranil on 09 Jul 2018 00:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Warning issued: Personal attack.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 09 Jul 2018 00:49

How long will the Arjun tank project continue without the tank being mass produced.

It's been decades and still the goal has not been met.

Either start mass producing it or shut it down.

There are other programs that could use the money that's being pissed away on a project with no prospects of production

Developing a tank cannot turn into a project spanning a third of a century.

Terrible project management.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 09 Jul 2018 19:22

Shank, I am v.much an Indian heart and soul and not a firangi.My folk have served with distinction in the armed forces, administration and executive too. Police chiefs in 2 states have been my close relatives. It is an accident of history- after western snubs , that India turned to a willing USSR for defence eqpt. which served us v.well in our wars against Pak, sold to us at " friendship rates" too.After the collapse of the USSR problems of spares, etc. arose because the various mil. factories were scattered in the various republics, now independent.The IL-76 is a case in point built formerly in Uzbekistan , now totally in Russia.The UKR supplied all marine GTs by Zorya.Tanks though from the monster of all tank factories anywhere on the globe, UVZ.

Thus the Indian armed forces with a rich tradition of the ethos of the British military, and fighting experience in two world wars and other colonial conflicts, skillfully melded Sov/Russian eqpt. into their various mil. doctrines.The raid on Karachi in '71 was one such example.A v.close relative played a major part in naval ops on both fronts at NHQ at the time and got a bar to his AVSM.

Until we have sufficiently progressed with desi R&D and have mastered mass production of cutting edge wrapon systems, we will have to rely on foreign partners for outright, JV and TOT deals. Thus far Russia has been the most reliable of partners and its eqpt. is both rugged and v.price competitive in comparison with western eqpt.It is sheer pragmatism if some of my proposals recommend Ru eqpt.I don't hear any howls of protest though when I say we should get German U-boats though. No neo- Nazi accusations! :mrgreen:

PS: So you are threatening to " sort me out"? Are you in favour of lynch mobs? Careful with your words chum.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby jpremnath » 10 Jul 2018 16:28

Philip, be that as it may, your posts always stabs deep into anyone who cares for this country. Before joining, I have been visiting BRF almost daily for close to 10 years now and even with a non military background, I could easily see through your agenda of pushing Russian wares as the panacea for anything and everything. Of course there are the odd sprinkling of buying some desi wares or German subs; which I am sorry to admit only sounded halfhearted or fake.

Now, you probably might know this already, but the USSR and Russia are two different countries. The SU were willing to help anyone who went to them as they had this enshrined in their govt policy. They funded and equipped friendly countries even when it was detrimental to their fiscal situation. Russia or the Russian govt is a totally different entity which behaves like any other nation state; and will do everything to protect itself. This means if it ever comes to it, it will sell India to China if they come with better terms. So please do not ever use Soviet Union and Russia in the same sentence and expect us to lap it up.
You have been constantly pushing the post WW 'quantity' over quality argument, conveniently forgetting how the weapons and platforms have moved generations and the cost per unit of even the Russian wares going up exponentially with it. So we end up spending more in maintenance and upkeep in the long run for weapons which are inferior. Prime exhibit being the Hangar queens MKIs and the ill equipped and work shop friendly tin cans. These are costing us time and money in just keeping them up and running.

You can be whatever you have claimed to be, but dont expect respect. There are others who might find your knowledge of Russian wares (which i must say make even sales rep of uralvagonzavod proud) useful and educational, but for the vast majority of us you are anything but a bharat rakshak. My only plead to you is to leave atleast the Arjun thread. I end my rant here.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vips » 10 Jul 2018 17:58

Do not want to go OT but you are way too charitable by saying that Soviet Union was willing to help anybody who went to them. It did so as it wanted its own group of friends (and lackeys) in its geo-political competition with the US of A.
Remember the special relationship it had with India and the "friendship prices" it sold the military equipment to us was because India was its only major ally during the cold war.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby jpremnath » 10 Jul 2018 18:29

Vips wrote:Do not want to go OT but you are way too charitable by saying that Soviet Union was willing to help anybody who went to them. It did so as it wanted its own group of friends (and lackeys) in its geo-political competition with the US of A.
Remember the special relationship it had with India and the "friendship prices" it sold the military equipment to us was because India was its only major ally during the cold war.


I never said anything about their reason behind the 'policy'. It could be whatever you said it to be. But that policy did indeed equip friendly countries with weapons without the threads which others had.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 10 Jul 2018 23:12

I think that the incompetence displayed by some our DPSUs in delivering desi milware to the long suffering services stabs deeper.Why on earth then would a patriotic govt. like the NDA, not I call for another MRCA tender?
Please check the promises and timelines of many of our marquee programmes and the end result.Arjun is onx such example.I didn't order the T-72 or T-90, the Indian Army and GOI did! So does that make them backstabbers? Rant and rave at them not me chum, they're the ones spending the taxpayer's money.
They did so for very good teasons which your blinkered vision cannot comptehend, mores the pity!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 11 Jul 2018 00:53

Philip, It adds zero value to keep repeating the your stated bias POV. Unfortunately, it matches that of a former DGMO of IA. He made a blunder and we are still paying for his wrong decision. Why he did it, we all know and That was nothing short of a treason. So yes, IA and GoI did waste tax payer money.

Please stop spamming the thread with your T- series love, better use it during whisky parties ;)

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jul 2018 04:12

Philip wrote:Why on earth then would a patriotic govt. like the NDA, not I call for another MRCA tender?

Because Govts do not operate military platforms, the services do. There have been numerous attempts - some successful - at increasing the % of indigenous content/desi platforms, but largely the Govt has to follow what the services tell them when it comes to military platforms. Defence Minister Sitharaman has gone on official record stating that she encourage indigenization only to a certain point and she cannot arm twist the services to buy desi maal over phoren maal. I have the article, if you want to see it.

No one can expect Prime Minister Modi (or his predecessors) or Defence Minister Sitharaman (or her predecessors) to know about AESA radars or tank warfare or the value of carrier battle groups. That is not their job and they rely on senior military leadership to advise them on such matters.

To answer your specific question about calling for another MRCA tender, the following set of circumstances has led to the re-issuing of the tender;

- Tejas Mk1 production not ramping in large enough numbers to meet the shortfall, despite the fact that MRCA will do squat to address the shortfall.
- MoD languishing on key developmental projects - Kaveri engine, Uttam radar, etc. But MoD got money to fund MRCA contest :roll:
- No accountability at DRDO, GTRE and other organizations which leads to zero faith in them by the services.
- Adhoc planning (MRCA contest) in which the services, the babus and even the Govt are all to blame.

Fix Tejas production first and then cancel MRCA tender. All three - IAF, Babu and Govt - have to be in sync with this. but they are not and thus the reason for the mess.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby kit » 11 Jul 2018 04:55

The time that bureaucracy and the political parties get educated on geopolitics and military industrial policies, shouldn't be there some dedicated university for military sciences, geopolitics and such strategic planning .. doesn't the future of a country depend on it? OT anyway .. the space sciences has a whole university for them

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 11 Jul 2018 09:09

The beaurocrats are career-strategy makers and geopoliticians? Who will train them?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby habal » 11 Jul 2018 10:52

the driving force behind defence imports are *commissions* and those are in this order

* West European products earn highest commissions. So political class is involved.
* Russian imports earn lesser commissions so only serving defence procurement gentlemen involved.
* Imported components commission go to chota-mota drdo, ofb, hal procurement employees. These components go into many indegenously manf platforms, so enthusiasm among vocal and high visibility crowd is very less here.
* US govt-to-govt imports are to pre-empt any trade restrictions and sniping on domestic issues, so no enthusiasm only c***yapa.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 11 Jul 2018 10:54

Indranil wrote:The beaurocrats are career-strategy makers and geopoliticians? Who will train them?


If the prime minister says that India is alone and is not in a position to count the support of anyone. You will easily see India beginning developing it's own MIC.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 11 Jul 2018 13:54

It used to be said allegedly about Mahathir Md. of Malaysia,that he would call the various parties vying for contracts,"fix" a party,but he would make sure that the contract was executed perfectly,no lessening of quality and delivery on schedule.It's why Malaysia became an ASEAN "tiger".Swift decision-making is the hallmark of a good leader and the follow up management too.Unfortunately in India,decisions are as per IST and as far as desi items are concerned,time for delivery is infinite!

There is a piece very critical of the current dispensation,as well as the former in the Deccan Chronicle which one will post in another td. It may be biased,but there are some hard home truths in it.My sadness with the NDA is that one hoped for faster decision-making and a taming of babudom in the MOD and the stick used to get the DPSUs performing as they should. One needs to examine whether they've performed better than during the UPA where AKA was only interested in wearing a spotless dhoti,not the defence of the country.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 11 Jul 2018 22:15

Pratyush wrote:
Indranil wrote:The beaurocrats are career-strategy makers and geopoliticians? Who will train them?


If the prime minister says that India is alone and is not in a position to count the support of anyone. You will easily see India beginning developing it's own MIC.

And who advices the PM on what decisions to make. We tend to accrue credit and blame on one person.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 11 Jul 2018 22:20

Philip wrote:There is a piece very critical of the current dispensation,as well as the former in the Deccan Chronicle which one will post in another td. It may be biased,but there are some hard home truths in it.My sadness with the NDA is that one hoped for faster decision-making and a taming of babudom in the MOD and the stick used to get the DPSUs performing as they should. One needs to examine whether they've performed better than during the UPA where AKA was only interested in wearing a spotless dhoti,not the defence of the country.

In four years, if we expect the inertia of a country like India to change then we have the wrong expectation. I think that is the problem that Modi Sarkar will face in the 2019 elections. Many people believed that the problems will evaporate overnight with a new government.

Things have changed quite a lot. They need more time to change to where things should be. Habits and practices don't change overnight.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Arun.prabhu » 19 Jul 2018 11:48

Even with the main gun of a battle tank, you get 1 about 20 or so kgs of high explosive with HESH ammo. That’s enough to take out sensors on the hull, displace turret, destroy treads... you know things that make the tank a loss on the battlefield. Any gun firing HESH would be awesome on the Northern front where you aren’t going to be able to engage enemy tanks from miles away, where the armor isn’t going to be that thick... KE makes sense on the plains for the long reach and must be a MBTs tank killer of choice in the west, but in other terrain, HESH is much superior. Even against armoured bunkers because the overpressure of 20 or more kgs of HE going over within a few feet will kill infantry deader than chivalry.

Karan M wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:But I’m not talking HESH on tank guns. HESH on 155mm short range guns mounted on tracked or wheeled vehicles.


The discussion you jumped into was about HESH on tank guns. 155mm guns are not in IA service as tank killers nor are there plans to make them fulfill that role.

Neither ARMOR PIERCERS or HEAT will work well against ERA armor either. Should we discard those?


Errr.. KE rounds are tested for use with ERA protected targets considered, and most Gen1/Gen2 ERA packages (as versus advanced ones like Relikt) cannot stop advanced KE rounds, bar introducing a yaw which degrades but cannot entirely stop effectiveness. HEAT remains viable against ERA armor FYI, as tandem HEAT rounds are in fact the IA's primary tank killing weapon in the form of the INVAR, and specifically procured for use against heavy armor (Pak/PRC tanks with heavy composite and ERA package). As India again picks up on FSAPDS development, which had been foolishly stopped and has now been restarted, the need for INVAR type expensive rounds will reduce and we may well revert to FSAPDS. Most western armies continue to rely on advanced FSAPDS to deal with ERA equipped targets.

Karan M wrote:
Who says its 100 pounds? Around half that.
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... /lc/22.htm
Second, most tanks now have ERA tiles mounted at a distance from the main armor. The HESH round will likely strip away the ERA and the actual explosive effect won;t get through the main armor

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Arun.prabhu » 19 Jul 2018 12:02

Unfortunately, range of HESH ammo is much less than KE on the plains- effective range of a kilometer or so compared to three or more kilometers for the best KE rounds. So the use case will be limited. Defending a position, has possibilities though.

And yes, direct lay fire was used by pretty much all sides in WW2. In fact, artillery used to be direct fire weaponry as compared to the indirect fire use of today.

ramana wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:But I’m not talking HESH on tank guns. HESH on 155mm short range guns mounted on tracked or wheeled vehicles.

Neither ARMOR PIERCERS or HEAT will work well against ERA armor either. Should we discard those?




The OFB upgrade to 130mm M-46 is called Sarang. The M-46 carriage has direct fire mode. Sarang due to its carriage elevation limits will be mostly in plains where such a HESH round could be awesome for bunker busting and anti tank role. BTW British Indian Army developed the tactics of using the 5.5 inch medium gun in direct fire mode to destroy Imperial Japanese bunkers which were immune to 1000 lb. 'near miss' bombs from RAF.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby chola » 19 Jul 2018 16:51

Any news of us going to the russki Tank Biathlon starting this month? I want us to bring the Arjun instead of the damn T-90 which embarassed us last year by breaking down in not just one but two tanks.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Jul 2018 18:34

chola wrote:Any news of us going to the russki Tank Biathlon starting this month? I want us to bring the Arjun instead of the damn T-90 which embarassed us last year by breaking down in not just one but two tanks.

Why do you care so much!
Anyway Arjun wont go.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby chola » 19 Jul 2018 19:07

ks_sachin wrote:
chola wrote:Any news of us going to the russki Tank Biathlon starting this month? I want us to bring the Arjun instead of the damn T-90 which embarassed us last year by breaking down in not just one but two tanks.

Why do you care so much!
Anyway Arjun wont go.


I care because I want us to kick arse.

I want the Arjun to kick arse.

I want the Arjun to kick the T-90’s arse in retrospect and show the IA brass that it is better than the russki tin can.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Jul 2018 22:27

^^I doubt the risk of Tank biathlon will be taken by powers that be. There is too much risk involved either ways. If it works then it it's a trouble for IA, for 1000s of T90 can't be wished away and if it doesnt it's an egg on DRDO's face

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby chola » 19 Jul 2018 22:49

ArjunPandit wrote:^^I doubt the risk of Tank biathlon will be taken by powers that be. There is too much risk involved either ways. If it works then it it's a trouble for IA, for 1000s of T90 can't be wished away and if it doesnt it's an egg on DRDO's face


Yes. I know. I was just hoping.

But I also know that the Arjun is being forced into a slow death with the Catch-22 weight requirements and it needs to showcase itself somehow. The risk of egg on its face is far outweighed by possibility of success.

The IA was left with egg on its face last year anyways by taking the Russki tincans. Why not show them an Indian tank this time around? There are many observers at the International Army Games in Rus, we might get some interest for exports.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 20 Jul 2018 01:18

Taking the Arjun is double jepoardy any way.

If it loses the refrain would be why did you field a loser?
If it wins, horrors, why don't you buy it?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 20 Jul 2018 05:10

Ghor Kalyuga!
Bhishma wins and Arjun loses
:evil:

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby kit » 20 Jul 2018 05:18

ramana wrote:Taking the Arjun is double jepoardy any way.

If it loses the refrain would be why did you field a loser?
If it wins, horrors, why don't you buy it?


Even if arjun wins the IA can't and won't buy it.. It has already committed otherwise.. Best that they design a tank on their own!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby sum » 20 Jul 2018 06:32

^^ I think the horse has looong bolted and there is not much use dreaming up scenarios of the Arjun in IA since that time has come and gone ( can do it for our personal satisfaction though)

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 20 Jul 2018 07:54

kit wrote:
ramana wrote:Taking the Arjun is double jepoardy any way.

If it loses the refrain would be why did you field a loser?
If it wins, horrors, why don't you buy it?


Even if arjun wins the IA can't and won't buy it.. It has already committed otherwise.. Best that they design a tank on their own!



That would just be the t 14.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 20 Jul 2018 12:55

lol ... it will not
ramana wrote:ramana wrote:
Taking the Arjun is double jeopardy anyway.

If it loses the refrain would be why did you field a loser?
If it wins, horrors, why don't you buy it?


What is the issue, if it losses? IA had already fielded one loser T-90 - which was beaten. We can give a change to another guy - Arjun. right? DRDO can further improve it - they will get feedback from the best of the bests.

What is the issue, if it wins? It will not be a slap on IA or decision makers. They show the courage to accept their mistake by fielding Arjun in the competition. And rectify it, by canceling T-90 orders and ordering Arjuns.

Why do we always look down at ourselves? Be proud of our products and ourselves!!

!!Arjun will fail only!! But it will still kick opponents ass!!!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 20 Jul 2018 13:21

Weight reduction:
There is an interesting intl. development,a Franco-German venture,where the Le Clerc turret with an auto-loader and 2 man crew,is mated with the chassis of the Leopard.It has achieved two things.One,lighter weight,plus a smaller crew.Now imagine if the Arjun chassis can be mated with a lighter turret in similar fashion.For the sake of argument,even a t-90 turret atop an Arjun turret could be attempted.Since both elements are being manufactured at home,why not a prototype? We would then have an MBT within the weight that the IA is demanding,and it cannot reject the beast as it has already accepted thousands of T-90s! No way in which it can be rejected.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby dnivas » 20 Jul 2018 21:44

my biggest chagrin is that the deaf and dumb forum [old pdf] were right that this would go on for 20 + years.

There should be a directive that 90% of supplied used in the armed forces should be desi. 50% should be privately manufactured [start off with clothes, bullets.. regular supplies], increase by 5% every year. I know this is happening, but MOD should be kicked in the nuts and this should be forced down their throat.

Bonues should be implemented when external QC inspector [changed every year] certifies batches meet or exceed established quality. These are all easy fixed. Not sure why they do not get implemented. When our desi folks see their friends or a diff line getting a 5-10% bonus a year, that will spur them to act and at least get to work on time and put in 2 hrs of meaningful work.

meh just mad that a great product has been wrecked by dilly dallying by various parties

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 20 Jul 2018 22:15

Philip wrote:Weight reduction:
There is an interesting intl. development,a Franco-German venture,where the Le Clerc turret with an auto-loader and 2 man crew,is mated with the chassis of the Leopard.It has achieved two things.One,lighter weight,plus a smaller crew.Now imagine if the Arjun chassis can be mated with a lighter turret in similar fashion.For the sake of argument,even a t-90 turret atop an Arjun turret could be attempted.Since both elements are being manufactured at home,why not a prototype? We would then have an MBT within the weight that the IA is demanding,and it cannot reject the beast as it has already accepted thousands of T-90s! No way in which it can be rejected.


Philip, I don't know. The M-47/48 Patton had a soft armor with high fracture toughness to prevent spalling injuries.

Indian Army hit them at close range from the centurions and made kheema out of them. All this light weight French tanks are bokwas designer dreams and not practical.
The AMX-15 was an armored truck on tracks with high velocity gun. Even a good machine gun could kill it.
Was good for keeping the camel back raiders in Algiers at bay.
In fact after 1965, Indian army stopped the reequipping of the Armored corps with light tanks and switched to T-55 as only those were available.
The HVF, Avadi had many teething troubles it rendered the Armored Corps toothless.

The French after Napoleon lost every war.
And to rely on them is suicide.

And what is the obession with two man crew.

In war you need soldiers to take over after casualties.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 21 Jul 2018 07:35

3 man crew , 2 in the turret.The tank is lighter, can have better protection, smaller profile, ease of transportation, much lower cost, etc.The T-90 turret with its extra ERA just like Arjun has v.good protection.A T-90 survived a TOW ATGM in Syria.It was posted somd timd ago.The Le Clerc is an MBT not a light tank, but its turret with the auto- loader is smaller.

The IA has 90% of its MBTs with 3- man crews.If an Arjun with a smaller, lighter turret- with no reduction in armour protection is achieved, for example the T-90 turret,there is no way that the IA which has been harping on its obesity can reject it particularly when it has almost 2000 T-90s in service or on the convehor belt.The uniformity of the main 125mm gun with missile firing capability is also achieved.
At least 50% of the effort of the Arjun programme will be a success with the " Arjun-90".

If the DRDO/ CVRDE could try a " Tank- X", they could at least field a couuld of prototypes of the hybrid without much cost at all as the development of the A chassis is complete, in service too as well as the turret.I don't know why this idea has not been aired before.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby habal » 21 Jul 2018 09:11

I have a solution. Force the army to send the Arjun to tank competitions around the world, let us see how it fares. If it fares well, they will be shamefaced into accepting it. Precisely the reason why they desist from sending it.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Trikaal » 21 Jul 2018 09:27

They are accepting T-90s provided by Russia to all participants in competition this time.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 21 Jul 2018 16:26

Trikaal wrote:They are accepting T-90s provided by Russia to all participants in competition this time.

´
What IA wants to prove by not taking their equipment? They will operate Russian T-90MS as compared to our vanilla T-90. Unless they are preparing ground for next around of imports :(( . If cost is a factor they could skip some competitions but when participate, do it with what IA have.

Trikaal
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Trikaal » 21 Jul 2018 19:34

RKumar wrote:
Trikaal wrote:They are accepting T-90s provided by Russia to all participants in competition this time.

´
What IA wants to prove by not taking their equipment? They will operate Russian T-90MS as compared to our vanilla T-90. Unless they are preparing ground for next around of imports :(( . If cost is a factor they could skip some competitions but when participate, do it with what IA have.


They don't want a repeat of last year's embarrassment where both the tanks broke down. Saving face is more important than proving our equipment I guess.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Kersi » 23 Jul 2018 15:05

ArjunPandit wrote:^^I doubt the risk of Tank biathlon will be taken by powers that be. There is too much risk involved either ways. If it works then it it's a trouble for IA, for 1000s of T90 can't be wished away and if it doesnt it's an egg on DRDO's face


And Arjun maybe be sabotaged to show it in poor light against the "mighty" T 90

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Kersi » 23 Jul 2018 15:11

Gagan wrote:Ghor Kalyuga!
Bhishma wins and Arjun loses
:evil:



Na Arjun na Bhisma
Na OFB na DRDO
The whole thing is that ke bhaiyaa sab se bada rupiya & roubles

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby rkhanna » 25 Jul 2018 13:44

I read an incredible thing on Reddit.

During Trials the Arjun used to get "sabotaged" so often that DRDO had to eventually install a black box like device to moniter the Tanks. any credence to this?!!


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