Project 75I - It Begins

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chola
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby chola » 11 Jul 2018 21:26

Vips wrote:Time for reality check.
Taiwanese must be smoking something really potent to even think of buying something as critical as a submarine from a country which has not built one for itself (of its own design) and which itself relies on foreign suppliers.
The Japanese will get the contract for sure.


I don’t care who wins the contract but if someone from India is confident enough to enter a design for this competition then it is, as Trump and Pankajs would say, HUGE just HUGE!

I hope, I hope, I HOPE it is an original design. Maybe not just MDL either because there is no reason why the L&T design team can’t come up with a conventional design. I’m really looking forward to hearing more. Best story this year!

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 11 Jul 2018 21:57

Vips wrote:Time for reality check.
Taiwanese must be smoking something really potent to even think of buying something as critical as a submarine from a country which has not built one for itself (of its own design) and which itself relies on foreign suppliers.
The Japanese will get the contract for sure.


Really, everyone starts at some place. Before they reach their destination.

This very thread had a post on a design of an an Indian SSK not one year ago. Which was an early design.

DRDO AIP is already in use on land. Which will be fitted to scorpean class boats during MLU.

MDL is has repeatedly stated that they can dilivever the next lot of scorpean class boats with AIP on time. As everything needed to build them is in place.

So no reason why the sub for Taiwan cannot be a derravitive of either of the two above mentioned designes.

Or a total wild card. Arihant design minus the nuke reactor. But with the diesel engine and an AIP.


So you have 3 potential Indian sub designes in contention.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kakarat » 11 Jul 2018 22:33

One interesting thing in this Taiwanese competition according to the article is the Japanese entry is not by any industry but a team of retired personal from the Japanese sub industry

pankajs wrote:https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3478897
Japanese, Indian teams submit designs for Taiwan's 'Indigenous Defense Submarines'


Currently, the preliminary designs will be accepted and reviewed before more detailed construction blueprints are completed. The Indian team has experience with the diesel submarines in service in the Indian Navy. The Japanese team reportedly includes retired engineers with previous experience working for Mistubishi on the Harushio class submarines, and large scale projects under Kawasaki Heavy Industries.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby yensoy » 12 Jul 2018 06:41

Kakarat wrote:One interesting thing in this Taiwanese competition according to the article is the Japanese entry is not by any industry but a team of retired personal from the Japanese sub industry

pankajs wrote:https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3478897
Japanese, Indian teams submit designs for Taiwan's 'Indigenous Defense Submarines'


Currently, the preliminary designs will be accepted and reviewed before more detailed construction blueprints are completed. The Indian team has experience with the diesel submarines in service in the Indian Navy. The Japanese team reportedly includes retired engineers with previous experience working for Mistubishi on the Harushio class submarines, and large scale projects under Kawasaki Heavy Industries.


All these designs by "teams of retired cowboys" is because no industry wants to get blacklisted by the Chinese, at least not at the proposal submission stage. I am sure these proposals are backed up by actual companies.

Regarding Indian proposal, I doubt it is SSK/Arihant minus nuclear - mainly because one can be reasonably sure any blueprints sent to Taiwan will make its way to China. Unless we want to telegraph something to China... I am also sure Indian design wouldn't be from L&T - besides their unproven capabilities, they have too much invested in China.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 12 Jul 2018 07:50

Yeah, I think some of you may be on target. DCNS cannot directly bid for it, but Mazagoan dock probably can! :rotfl:

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 12 Jul 2018 19:14

Pratyush wrote:
Really, everyone starts at some place. Before they reach their destination.

This very thread had a post on a design of an an Indian SSK not one year ago. Which was an early design.

DRDO AIP is already in use on land. Which will be fitted to scorpean class boats during MLU.

MDL is has repeatedly stated that they can dilivever the next lot of scorpean class boats with AIP on time. As everything needed to build them is in place.

So no reason why the sub for Taiwan cannot be a derravitive of either of the two above mentioned designes.

Or a total wild card. Arihant design minus the nuke reactor. But with the diesel engine and an AIP.

So you have 3 potential Indian sub designes in contention.


Precisely my point. Why would Taiwan risk buying something based just on a design and no proven track record in terms of operation? Heck we have rejected so many systems from consideration in various competitions as they were just designs/proposals in contrast to the competing firms wares.

Having a design or a prototype and having it in active service are totally different things. If India builds something and has it in service then of course it will be taken seriously.

If India is offering a sub based on U209 design then South Korea has better chances as they have built these upgraded subs, have it in service and even offered it to Indonesia.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 12 Jul 2018 19:44

Name one sub design from a major navy that was proven in service before it's construction began and it entered service.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 12 Jul 2018 20:04

Name one country which allowed itself to be a guinea pig to validate a design from another country which has no track record of exporting a major defence system.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Jul 2018 21:32

When the Bush admin in 2000's promised it will provide Diesel electric subs it was speculated it will be U 209 subs built in India. Is it now being implemented?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jul 2018 21:52

When did the Bush Admin promise something like that? I am hearing this for the first time. Do you have a source?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 12 Jul 2018 22:23

Vips wrote:Name one country which allowed itself to be a guinea pig to validate a design from another country which has no track record of exporting a major defence system.



Then let Taiwan decide what they want. Let's not make the decision for them.

Ok.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 13 Jul 2018 08:47

Even the japanese invited GTRE Kaveri to their mil air engine competition
The KSA army invited the Arjun Mk 1 for a competition

This has to be an MDL built U209 or a Scorpene (Depending if the Taiwanese prefer the Germans or the French)
I doubt if MDL has a clean sheet design - Navy Design Bureau does that, tests the out models out in vizag

BTW, the U-209 for the South Korean navy were all built in South Korea, under tech transfer. If Taiwan wants a U-209 design, they'll get it from SoKo, not MDL. MDLs current product is the license produced Scorpene

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Jul 2018 09:41

Soko is very worried about Chinese retaliation is economy and geographically they are very exposed to China, we finally get some leverage of Chinese supplies to Pakis

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby rohan1424 » 13 Jul 2018 12:15

We have already operated Russian and German origin subs and recently gone for french ones . Time has come for NDB to come up with a indigenous design incorporating best of all three with AIP module and maximum local content . If we can achieve that then it will be a significant milestone. We can then pitch this design to friendly countries like Indonesia, Vietnam,Bangladesh etc. Basically do what SoKo has done with U209.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 13 Jul 2018 12:49

Seems like the powers behind the scenes want India to be a collaborative partner with soko or the Germans to build for Taiwan.. this could very well help the p75i project by providing the economies of scale

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 13 Jul 2018 16:19

Line drawings of a double hulled conventional submarine, with and without AIP - India's own design
Credit to our own Aditya G from twitter
Image
Image

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby chola » 13 Jul 2018 16:32

Aditya_V wrote:Soko is very worried about Chinese retaliation is economy and geographically they are very exposed to China, we finally get some leverage of Chinese supplies to Pakis


Taiwan itself is heavily dependent on Cheen’s economy with a million or more of her citizens living and working in the PRC just like SoKo. Any design in the hands of either will most likely/eventually end up in China.

But SoKo still placed THAAD and got enbargoed and Taiwan is going through with the sub and will get punished. But eventually things will be smoothed over by SoKo or Taiwanese tech transfers on things like chips or batteries. China’s rise was fueled by these deals (along with hacking of goras who are less inclined to horse trade.)

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby chola » 13 Jul 2018 16:45

Gagan wrote:Line drawings of a double hulled conventional submarine, with and without AIP - India's own design
Credit to our own Aditya G from twitter
Image
Image


Fantastic! From which entity? MDL, L&T or a gov/defense bureau?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby dinesha » 13 Jul 2018 17:49

Gagan wrote:Line drawings of a double hulled conventional submarine, with and without AIP - India's own design
Credit to our own Aditya G from twitter
Image
Image

Link seems to be broken..

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 13 Jul 2018 18:14

Curious as to the design team.Probably a pvt. entity who had hoped for a P-75I order. Of the pvt. entities,only L&T have the capability having built hulls for our ATVs. There are other cos. who make significant components,less mentioned the better. Japanese designers have huge experience at building their own subs,but have considerable US components,which is fine as the US has now allowed sale of components for subs to Taiwan.
The key components however are the engines and AIP system if on offer,scopes,sonars command system and weaponry.Torpedoes from where? Unlikely that the GOI will officially sell any desi fish for fear of tickling the dragon's underbelly.So weaponry will have to come from elsewhere.European OEMs are reluctant to supply sub tech for fear of losing huge orders of commercial eqpt.The pvt. entity may have tied up however in secret with some global OEMs for supply of some eqpt. It's Taiwan's call.Cost factor may not be a problem as it is cash rich and Japan is closest to it.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 13 Jul 2018 19:41

India already has two entities that can build the sub.
1. MDL
2. L&T, final assembly at SBC for the n subs.

So one wonders what is stopping an Indian designed sub with and without AIP from being built?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 13 Jul 2018 19:43

Also, the layout of this conventional sub has Arihant-esque features.
Specifically the front end sloping design and parts of the internal layout

dinesha wrote:Link seems to be broken..

Refresh the page onlee

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 13 Jul 2018 19:55

MDL is babu.No chance of India officially supporting a Taiwanese sub requirement.HSL which refitted after a long period,a Kilo,could also do the same.After all the ATVs are being built at Vizag.

If a desi sub design was good enough,I'm sure that the IN ,which is a "builder's navy",and has taken the lead in building its own warships,would've done so. The very fact that it has invited foreign OEMs for the P-75I req. shows that our sub tech isn't mature enough for the IN's ambitious needs.Taiwan's needs are perhaps more basic as they're operating subs decades old,and are to refit these old tubs. In their context,AIP isn't required at all.A normal 45 day patrol by small silent subs,monitoring the principal PLAN's bases and Chinese ports is sufficient.They need large numbers.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Indranil » 13 Jul 2018 22:43

Gagan wrote:Line drawings of a double hulled conventional submarine, with and without AIP - India's own design
Credit to our own Aditya G from twitter
Image
Image

I remember seeing these diagrams here about a year back. It was by some DPSU.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 14 Jul 2018 09:09

How will tech mature unless it is put in production.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 14 Jul 2018 10:51

They must be having something up their sleeve.Don't forget that the U-209 sub designs secretly given to the S.Africans can be offloaded by us to anyone.
Intetesting VLS concept.The Taiwanese have their own Hsieung Feng 3 supersonic anti- ship missile.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kersi » 17 Jul 2018 11:20

Vips wrote:Name one country which allowed itself to be a guinea pig to validate a design from another country which has no track record of exporting a major defence system.


MERA BHARAT MAHAN

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Austin » 19 Feb 2019 18:06

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... c/1492242/

What is status of the Project 75I?


As we know, India is going to announce a tender under strategic partnership model. Russia is offering its state-of-the-art “Lada” class diesel-electric submarine which is the export modification of Amur-1650. It will be a submarine with an air-independent power plant that can be equipped with BrahMos missile.

We are ready for the tender which is expected in 2019. Surely, the fruitful experience that we share with India in the field of submarine construction is giving us an implicit advantage to successfully execute project 75I submarines production in India.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Austin » 19 Feb 2019 18:07

Since India is now member of MTCR they can also fit in 2000 km range Caliber on Kilo/P-75I

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby MeshaVishwas » 10 Mar 2019 23:44

Defence Ministry appoints naval officer in charge of Rs 50,000 crore submarine deal
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 310152809/

- Ajit Dubey

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Austin » 27 Mar 2019 17:01

Fourth Generation Conventional submarines - Russia’s proposal for the Indian Navy
http://www.vayuaerospace.in/article.htm ... ines&d=201

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 04 Apr 2019 17:46

Indian Navy kicks off Rs 50,000 crore lethal submarine project, wants 500 km strike range cruise missiles on them.

The Indian Navy has initiated the process to acquire six lethal submarines under the ambitious Project-75 India likely to cost over Rs 50,000 crore.
The Navy has initiated the tender process by issuing the initial Expression of Interest to foreign vendors willing to take part in the mega programme.

Under Project 75-India, the Navy wants to build six conventional diesel-electric submarines which would be almost 50 per cent bigger than the under-construction Scorpene class submarines being built at the Mazagon Dockyards Limited in Mumbai.(Favors Soryu?)

"The draft EOI has been issued to the foreign vendors who would be taking part in the competition along with the probable Indian partners who have also been invited to give suggestions on the strategic partnership policy under which the boats would be built," Sources in the Navy told ANI.

As per the requirements stated by the maritime force, it wants the submarines to be equipped with heavy-duty firepower as it wants the boats to have at least 12 Land Attack Cruise Missiles (LACM) along with Anti-Ship cruise missiles (ASCM). Sources said that the Navy has also specified that the submarines should also be able to carry and launch 18 heavyweight torpedoes in the sea. Compared with the Scorpene, the firepower required in the next line of submarines is many times more than what is being put on the Scorpenes which have the heavyweight torpedoes and the Exocet surface to surface missiles as their main weapons.

After clearing the procurement of these submarines in the Defence Acquisition Council, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman has put a Navy officer as the in-charge of the project.An empowered project committee has been formed with the Navy's Controller of Warship Production and Acquisition as the head of the panel including several other Joint Secretaries as its members.

Navy wants to have a mix of conventional and nuclear submarines in its fleet to manage its area of responsibility stretching from the Malacca Straits to the Indian Ocean Region.

While the Indian Navy has more than 100 submarines and surface warships, the Pakistani Navy has around 20 of these. However, the Indian Navy is building assets for tackling the Chinese Navy which operates occasionally in the IOR region.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Austin » 04 Apr 2019 18:07

If they want a 12 LACM VLS with 18 Torpedo then they are looking at 4000T class submarine and a conventional submarine of such class will have limitations in many aspects ......They are better off going nuclear for such boats.

Even the latest Australian sub proposed by France Shortfin Barracuda is around 4000 T but cannot carry more than 28 Torpedo and 12 subs cost $38 billion

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Thakur_B » 04 Apr 2019 19:19

It has taken about 8 years to come to RFI stage. Will take about 2 more for RFP, 2 more for RFP evaluation, 2 more for negotiation and award of work, 4 more for first sub to roll putr from.yhe date of keel laying. Sigh.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 04 Apr 2019 19:25

18 HWT is fine, but a SSGN type armoury adds weight and drag that will drain the batteries in submerged mode and reduce the effective top speed also.

its better to go for smaller 2500t SSKs with AIP imo and to have more of them.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby ritesh » 04 Apr 2019 22:52

Just order a dozen Kilos and Mki it in the meantime. At least some semblence of balance vis a vis chinipanda can be arrived at.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 05 Apr 2019 00:09

Vips wrote:Indian Navy kicks off Rs 50,000 crore lethal submarine project, wants 500 km strike range cruise missiles on them.

As per the requirements stated by the maritime force, it wants the submarines to be equipped with heavy-duty firepower as it wants the boats to have at least 12 Land Attack Cruise Missiles (LACM) along with Anti-Ship cruise missiles (ASCM). Sources said that the Navy has also specified that the submarines should also be able to carry and launch 18 heavyweight torpedoes in the sea. Compared with the Scorpene, the firepower required in the next line of submarines is many times more than what is being put on the Scorpenes which have the heavyweight torpedoes and the Exocet surface to surface missiles as their main weapons.

Prettt decent firepower for a conventional sub !! Would that translate to 30 odd firing tubes or 12 multipurpose tubes? Would be interesting to see what sort of AIP goes into it !

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 05 Apr 2019 00:12

also interesting to see the IN going for the big boys club, looking out for their next 10,000 + ton destroyer

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby SaiK » 05 Apr 2019 01:08

Whatever happened to France helping IN similar to Barracuda class subs [I guess it was specific to nuke propulsion LEU type]?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 05 Apr 2019 01:20

Naval Group only gave a presentation to Admiral Lanba.

The IN is invested in HEU nuke propulsion as on the Arihant.

The one thing really nice about the LEU nuke propulsion aboard the Barracuda Class is that they can refuel the reactor without cutting open the boat apparently. And the refueling process is much quicker versus a HEU reactor.

However France's Naval Group is facing significant challenges in fitting the K15 reactor into the Barracuda Class boat. See below...

http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2018/11/ ... g-k15.html


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