Naval LCA - News and Discussion

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ShauryaT
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 09 Sep 2017 10:37

Rakesh wrote:@ShauryaT Saar: I could be wrong on this, but it is my understanding that at the senior level (Rear Admiral and up), there is a board of officers that determine the eligibility of officers to be promoted from Commodore to Rear Admiral and up from there. Can you elaborate more, without compromising your sources obviously, on how Rear Admiral Ahuja can be a factor in Commodore Maolankar not getting promoted to a higher rank? It cannot be as simple as convincing the entire board that the Commodore is not fit to be promoted right?
@Rakesh ji, Please no sir for me, from an Admiral :) Now to your question, I do not know the exact details but with the recent experience of Commander Luthra denied a promotion to Captain as now retd VADM PK Chaterjee favored his son in law. The tribunal has sanctioned the IN and fined the retd VADM. Suggests, it is possible. I am sure you know a lot more than I do on how professional rivalries and politics are part of any large organization. In the same vein, do not discount the possibility that it may be case of sour grapes for Commodore Maolankar.

Indranil
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 09 Sep 2017 11:59

CM,

I have dropped enough hints on what IN really wants of its carrier based aircraft. If you think TWR is the issue, you can continue to believe it. I won't say anymore.

ShauryaT sir,

Correlation doesn't mean causation. Sullying a respected serving officer without proof is a baseless report.

As for Indian test pilots, I do not know one who has got his due.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Vidur » 09 Sep 2017 16:22

ShauryaT wrote:
Rakesh wrote:@ShauryaT Saar: I could be wrong on this, but it is my understanding that at the senior level (Rear Admiral and up), there is a board of officers that determine the eligibility of officers to be promoted from Commodore to Rear Admiral and up from there. Can you elaborate more, without compromising your sources obviously, on how Rear Admiral Ahuja can be a factor in Commodore Maolankar not getting promoted to a higher rank? It cannot be as simple as convincing the entire board that the Commodore is not fit to be promoted right?
@Rakesh ji, Please no sir for me, from an Admiral :) Now to your question, I do not know the exact details but with the recent experience of Commander Luthra denied a promotion to Captain as now retd VADM PK Chaterjee favored his son in law. The tribunal has sanctioned the IN and fined the retd VADM. Suggests, it is possible. I am sure you know a lot more than I do on how professional rivalries and politics are part of any large organization. In the same vein, do not discount the possibility that it may be case of sour grapes for Commodore Maolankar.


This is malicious slander. I need to correct you on many points.

1 Promotions up to Bring and equivalent are in charge of ministry. Norms are set and all promotion boards follow those norms. Individual officer identity is never known to promotion boards. Lt Gen and eq is the only stage where identities are given out.

2 Promotions below brig eq are done by service. Norms are set and promotion boards have no idea of the identity of the officer.

Criteria for promotion is reports , compulsory /voluntary courses , employability and vacancies.

Any subjectivity comes at level of IO initiating officer for reports and reviewing officers. That is years before the board meets. There is a well thought out system that is flowed suborning a it a for individuals and manipulating promotion is not that easy.

3 Govt decisions are taken after much deliberation and many inputs from all stakeholders all of whom have expertise and experience. Complex issues are not easy to decide. There are many opinions. That doesn't mean all decisions are malafide. There is a growing national tendency to jump at every thing that you don't agree with and criticise it.

4 Dont trust journalists so easily. They have agendas, big egos and low knowledge. They pretend to have more access and influence than they do. They are easily bought and influenced.
Last edited by Vidur on 09 Sep 2017 16:33, edited 1 time in total.

Vidur
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Vidur » 09 Sep 2017 16:32

Sorry for the grammatical errors. Typing on a mobile.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Vidur » 09 Sep 2017 16:40

Addendum the acquisition matters you say the officer is handling on which you base your slander are going to be decided by the ministry as per the policy. Lots of advice and many expert committees will be involved. Some might not even see light of the day. Why malign a leading naval aviator for doing his mandated job without having any knowledge of the matter ?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SiddharthS » 09 Sep 2017 17:37

It'd have been better if the minutes of the meeting were made available, detailing who was for and against the aircraft and for what reasons,surely ADA and DRDO must have been for the aircraft but what was navy's position, was it for or against or in between like tentative support without any future, and if it was against the aircraft what were the problems navy thought were unrectifiable in future iterations meriting import.

"The problem is with the anti-ship roles. Will NLCA Mk2 be able to take off with two heavy antiship missiles, full internal fuel, centerline fuel tank and two WVR"

If these are navy's reasons for dunking NLCA it'd be such a pity and one would be tempted to accuse navy of lacking foresight or even worse not learning from the past mistakes of IAF (Marut) .Given the problems imported aircraft would face on an Indian carrier https://www.stratpost.com/failure-to-launch/ , one is baffled by navy's aversion towards putting it's head down and developing/rectifying NLCA.

NAMCA would meet the same fate ,by the time first iteration of naval variant gets developed it'd be riddled with it's own shortcomings owing to the lack of carrier fighter experience in Indian engineers ,which could have been nullified had the navy chosen NLCA, by that time F-35 naval variant will have become more mature platform costing less than NAMCA, giving Navy dreams about STOVL aircraft landing on its carrier,people would go gaga over the safety of STOVL against the dangers of arrested recovery , navy would questioned the place of costly and underperforming NAMCA clearing the way for F-35 ,screwdriver TOT will be offered by LM to seal the deal and we would again be led down the primrose path of import addiction.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 09 Sep 2017 18:34

SiddharthS wrote:It'd have been better if the minutes of the meeting were made available, detailing who was for and against the aircraft and for what reasons,surely ADA and DRDO must have been for the aircraft but what was navy's position, was it for or against or in between like tentative support without any future, and if it was against the aircraft what were the problems navy thought were unrectifiable in future iterations meriting import.

"The problem is with the anti-ship roles. Will NLCA Mk2 be able to take off with two heavy antiship missiles, full internal fuel, centerline fuel tank and two WVR"

If these are navy's reasons for dunking NLCA it'd be such a pity and one would be tempted to accuse navy of lacking foresight or even worse not learning from the past mistakes of IAF (Marut) .Given the problems imported aircraft would face on an Indian carrier https://www.stratpost.com/failure-to-launch/ , one is baffled by navy's aversion towards putting it's head down and developing/rectifying NLCA.

NAMCA would meet the same fate ,by the time first iteration of naval variant gets developed it'd be riddled with it's own shortcomings owing to the lack of carrier fighter experience in Indian engineers ,which could have been nullified had the navy chosen NLCA, by that time F-35 naval variant will have become more mature platform costing less than NAMCA, giving Navy dreams about STOVL aircraft landing on its carrier,people would go gaga over the safety of STOVL against the dangers of arrested recovery , navy would questioned the place of costly and underperforming NAMCA clearing the way for F-35 ,screwdriver TOT will be offered by LM to seal the deal and we would again be led down the primrose path of import addiction.

Sidharth Ji, Really? :roll:

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SiddharthS » 10 Sep 2017 17:15

If it's not classified ,in any case they are dumping the project ,might as well do the breakup properly.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 10 Sep 2017 17:31

SiddharthS wrote:If it's not classified ,in any case they are dumping the project ,might as well do the breakup properly.


They are completing the NLCA "project", the IN is funding the completion.

The IN is not inducting the NLCA.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby samirdiw » 10 Sep 2017 17:58

What is the mission that the Aircraft carriers can do with the imported fighters say the Sea Gripen that they can't do with let's say even the LCA Mk1A?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SiddharthS » 10 Sep 2017 18:55

That is akin to dumping . If one thinks that the "project" will come to fruition with parallel imports caution must be advised, with navy's limited budget prospects are bleak. Once navy gets the taste of Hornet or Rafale there is no going back to the measly single engine. Once you go imported ,domestic product will be aborted. Radiants funds will dry ,by the time the "project" completes todays requirements it'll be short on that times requirements,it will be declared as unviable ,chirping of indigenous twin-engined carrier fighters requirement will fill the air paving way for another merry chase.

Indranil
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 10 Sep 2017 23:12

^^^ That's a lot of pontification. The Indian Navy is not a child, and we are not its parents deciding whether to give them a candy or not.

Cain Marko
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Sep 2017 23:35

Indranil wrote:CM,

I have dropped enough hints on what IN really wants of its carrier based aircraft. If you think TWR is the issue, you can continue to believe it. I won't say anymore.
.


As you wish, but just to clarify, it is not a question of what I chose to believe about the twr. It is what the Navy says...

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 10 Sep 2017 23:52

Then, fitting a bigger engine would have solved the problem. What's the big deal in that? They have a decade before IAC becomes fully operational.

Picklu
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Picklu » 11 Sep 2017 00:01

I would wait for tsarkar sir's technical post on this.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SiddharthS » 11 Sep 2017 01:17

Yes, it's well rehearsed and well oiled import cycle.

Cain Marko
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 11 Sep 2017 02:39

Indranil wrote:Then, fitting a bigger engine would have solved the problem. What's the big deal in that? They have a decade before IAC becomes fully operational.

No big deal Indranil?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 11 Sep 2017 02:40

SiddharthS wrote:Yes, it's well rehearsed and well oiled import cycle.

Of course it is..

Indranil
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 11 Sep 2017 04:42

Cain Marko wrote:
Indranil wrote:Then, fitting a bigger engine would have solved the problem. What's the big deal in that? They have a decade before IAC becomes fully operational.

No big deal Indranil?

Relatively speaking. :D

1. Putting the EPE will not be that difficult. They would have to re-optimize the auxiliary air intakes (may be a few more slits of the letter box).
2. I really wish that they go for TVC. It will lower ramp exit speeds and give greater control margins at recovery. The uncertainty of LEVcons may or may not, shelf flaps may or may not provide the 5 knots decrease in approach speed should be removed.
3. ADA should be tasked to make the footprint smaller by folding the wings.

NLCA Mk2 can be really made to work if heart and soul is put into it. I know for sure that Navy will not abandon NLCA Mk2. The question is how far will it take it: stepping stone to NAMCA, or a potent war fighting machine. And if there was any wing that I could blindly put my faith in for indigenization, it would be the Navy.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby vnms » 11 Sep 2017 04:53

If the Navy is going to continue funding the project, it's a good thing. Otherwise, we lose continuity. We have plan for the short term, mid term and the long term. There is no silver bullet to account for all these scenarios.

As long as we are planning to be self sufficient in the long term, imports will be a necessary evil in the short to mid term.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SiddharthS » 11 Sep 2017 16:36

There is no such a thing as getting self-sufficient in the long term all the while keeping the import tap open. Chinese understood this that's why they pursued the short and mid term strategy of keeping ones head down (under the nuclear umbrella) and making do with what you can make ,iteratively improving the product and inducting in numbers to grow their MIC ,all this inconvenience for the sole purpose of acquiring self-sufficiency in the long term.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby vnms » 11 Sep 2017 16:49

SiddharthS wrote:There is no such a thing as getting self-sufficient in the long term all the while keeping the import tap open. Chinese understood this that's why they pursued the short and mid term strategy of keeping ones head down (under the nuclear umbrella) and making do with what you can make ,iteratively improving the product and inducting in numbers to grow their MIC ,all this inconvenience for the sole purpose of acquiring self-sufficiency in the long term.

Sure. The Chinese could do that because no was no one threatening them. We, on the other hand, have been attacked by, both Pak & China. Because, ours is a truly defensive posture, we do not have the luxury of iterative development and deployment without a minimal effective deterrent. If we behaved like them, then you would have seen a lot more imports in China too.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SiddharthS » 11 Sep 2017 17:53

vnms wrote:
SiddharthS wrote:There is no such a thing as getting self-sufficient in the long term all the while keeping the import tap open. Chinese understood this that's why they pursued the short and mid term strategy of keeping ones head down (under the nuclear umbrella) and making do with what you can make ,iteratively improving the product and inducting in numbers to grow their MIC ,all this inconvenience for the sole purpose of acquiring self-sufficiency in the long term.

Sure. The Chinese could do that because no was no one threatening them. We, on the other hand, have been attacked by, both Pak & China. Because, ours is a truly defensive posture, we do not have the luxury of iterative development and deployment without a minimal effective deterrent. If we behaved like them, then you would have seen a lot more imports in China too.


The sole purpose of nuclear weapon is to secure the polity from all the existential threats, India already has one and has deterred all its existential threats, even with the current force structure Chinese are apprehensive, Pakistan is an irritant and if anyone thinks otherwise they're lowering India's stature. The nuclear umbrella gives India the space for building its own MIC through iterative improvisation and induction. Ultimately to stare down the dragon, having an indigenous MIC is a prerequisite ,it'll raise India's stock and will help to build military relationship with other countries, especially the ones on china's periphery.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 13 Sep 2017 01:45

x-post
Indranil wrote:0.5 mtr. Navy version is in limbo. Ahuja sahab is obviously not very popular in ADA right now. Apparently, even LCA Navy MK1 testing has dried up for lack of funds till a decision is taken.


Good that you did your own checking. Commodore Balaji (retd) and Mao sir are in sync.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 13 Sep 2017 02:28

WE both have to zip up a bit here. I am sure you know what I mean.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 19 Sep 2017 05:26

LCA Navy, a victim of archaic decision-making processes
https://www.thequint.com/voices/opinion ... -processes

By Captain KP Sanjeev Kumar (Retd) - a former navy test pilot and blogs at http://www.kaypius.com. He has flown over 24 types of fixed and rotary wing aircraft and holds a dual ATP rating on the Bell 412 & AW139 helicopters. 'Kaypius' as he is widely known in his circles, flies in the offshore oil & gas division of a leading helicopter services company.

On File Please
http://kaypius.com/2017/09/09/on-file-please/

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 19 Sep 2017 05:57

Bharat Karnad brings yet an another spin to the Naval LCA saga. He is like Bollywood's Abbas–Mustan...twists and turns at every opportunity. The article posted above is a counter to the article posted below.

Personal Feud or Technical Flaw, Why Was Tejas Rejected?
https://www.thequint.com/voices/opinion ... s-rejected

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby brar_w » 19 Sep 2017 06:13

It would help if he got some basics right. The F-18E/F is not being replaced in the US Navy by the F-35C, and no the carrier take-off issues will not take "years" to sort out, the fix was implemented and put out on the boat recently and so far the pilots seem to be happy (see the video I posted in the Int. thread).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 23 Jul 2018 21:25


Neela
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Neela » 23 Jul 2018 21:25


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2018 21:28


Neela wrote:Ding dong . Hello there!

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 2851203073

WOW!!!!! Neela & SaiK, beautiful find. Thank you! Really beautiful find.

Damn, that Naval Tejas is gorgeous!!!!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby jahaju » 23 Jul 2018 21:39

Xposting

It’s alive! Naval LCA flew its first sortie today with tailhook. #Goa

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 03073?s=19

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 23 Jul 2018 22:31

jahaju wrote:Xposting

It’s alive! Naval LCA flew its first sortie today with tailhook. #Goa

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 03073?s=19


From the link
Image
Image

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 23 Jul 2018 22:42

beautiful !

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby dkhare » 23 Jul 2018 22:49

What a beauty!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 23 Jul 2018 22:55

https://www.ada.gov.in/
· 4054th flight on 23th July

TD1 : 233 PV1: 245 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 LSP3:411 LSP5: 414

TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 212 LSP2: 317 LSP4: 369 LSP7: 299

NP1: 73 LSP8 : 234 PV6:195 NP2: 56 SP6:8

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 23 Jul 2018 23:19

Rahul M wrote:beautiful !


Beautiful not just for the eyes but for the soul too!

This sent my spirit soaring.

That tail hook down and ready!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 23 Jul 2018 23:28

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1021452337456582658

Terrific news. The LCA Navy project shelved by the @IndianNavy (but continued to support) has been reviewed & revived by the MoD under @NSitharaman. We’ll have a detailed report up tomorrow.


Terrific news indeed if true, MP revived LCA Tejas and NS revives LCA Navy. Hope she has a look at MBT Arjun too

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 24 Jul 2018 00:26

What a beautiful airplane the Naval LCA is ! I will always rue the fact that the definitive N-LCA variant whose CAD images we saw, will most likely not see light of day..that was beyond a shadow of a doubt, the most attractive LCA variant and would have gone on to be one of the most attractive jets of all time for me personally.

And could the IAF PLEASE take a look at how effective the navy's LCA color scheme looks versus the antiquated two tone scheme on IAF's Tejas fighters?!

On the topic of the arresting hook, can clearly see the aerodynamic fairing that's been added in front of the arresting hook attachment point.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 24 Jul 2018 01:13

Things are going to move fast on the NLCA in the next couple of weeks and months. Strap your belts!


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