Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

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Avarachan
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Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Avarachan » 26 Aug 2018 09:29

The Roman Catholic Organization is in the beginnings of a major crisis. The reason I'm creating this thread in the "Strategic Issues and International Relations Forum" is because this crisis could well become as significant as the Protestant Reformation. That irrevocably changed Europe politically, culturally, and strategically.

The reason for the title of the thread is this. The crisis involves the abuse of pre-pubescent and post-pubescent (approximate ages of 12-17) children. It also involves what can only be described as infidelity by adults. Roman Catholic priests take a vow of chastity. Nonetheless, it is now being revealed that many Roman Catholic seminaries are actually hotbeds of promiscuity (primarily homosexual). Also, it is now obvious that many Roman Catholic bishops do not take seriously the doctrines they swore to uphold. This has huge implications. Many of the laity have noticed and are furious.

Mods, I don't know how we can keep extraneous comments off this thread ... I know that BRF has long had a policy of not discussing purely religious/spiritual issues. The reason I started this topic is because I wanted a place to post links to news sources that many Indians might not be familiar with. Obviously, it would not be appropriate for someone to use this thread to bash all Roman Catholics. BRF is not the place for that ... There are many other places on the Internet where that (and the opposite) can be done, if one so chooses.

"The Catholic Church’s Rotherham"
Michael Brendan Dougherty, "National Review Online"
August 15, 2018
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/ ... ry-report/

"We are deeply saddened.” So begin the many perfunctory statements of many Catholic bishops today in response to the Pennsylvania grand-jury report detailing how priests in that state abused children and how bishops shuffled these priests around. What deeply saddens these men? The rape of children, the systematic cover-up, or the little schemes to run out the clock on the statute of limitations? Are they saddened by the people who were so psychologically wounded by their abuse at the hands of priests that they killed themselves? What exactly are they sorry about? Soon the bishops are telling us about a chance for “renewal” after the promised implementation of new policies. They tell us about “overcoming challenges” in the Church. Or they use the phrase “a few bad apples.”

I find it impossible not to notice that these expressions of sorrow never arrive before the courts, the state attorneys general, or the local press arrive on the scene. That fact gives you another idea about what causes the bishops’ sorrow.

Fifteen years ago Frank Keating, the former governor of Oklahoma, resigned from a panel called the National Review Board, set up by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops to monitor compliance with the Church’s new anti-abuse politics. He was under intense pressure to resign because he had offended bishops when he said some of them were acting like “La Cosa Nostra,” a reference to the Sicilian Mafia.

Cardinal Roger Mahoney of Los Angeles and other prelates made a great show of detesting Keating’s remarks. Keating refused to apologize. “My remarks, which some bishops found offensive, were deadly accurate. I make no apology,” he said. “To resist grand-jury subpoenas, to suppress the names of offending clerics, to deny, to obfuscate, to explain away; that is the model of a criminal organization, not my church,” Keating said in his resignation statement.

Keating was dismissed as a crank. Hadn’t every consultant and auditor given the the Church’s anti-abuse policies hearty endorsements? Wasn’t it routinely described as a model of safety?

Of course, Keating was right. Mahoney was later exposed as having engaged in an energetic attempt to cover up the truth about his own diocese. He shielded predators from law enforcement and even argued that the personnel files of the archdiocese were protected by the seal of the confessional.


This season is a new round of exposure for Catholic bishops, particularly those who have sold themselves as part of the solution to the Church’s abuse crisis. Cardinal Seán O’Malley, who is supposed to have cleaned up in Boston and heads the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors, is now trying to explain how it was that he fobbed off a credible report substantiating the well-known reputation of D.C. cardinal Theodore McCarrick. Cardinal Donald Wuerl, McCarrick’s successor and a former bishop of Pittsburgh, has always bragged about his record of being a no-nonsense administrator, someone who even fought with the Vatican to have abusive priests removed from ministry. The latest news paints a slightly different picture.

The Pennsylvania grand-jury report names hundreds of predator priests across seven decades of life in six Catholic diocese in the state. Some of the details in the report are so vile and lurid they would have been rejected from the writer’s room of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit. They include priests “marking” their preferred boy-victims with special crosses, priests trading and compiling their own homemade child *****. At one point in the report, a large redaction is made over what appears to be, in context, a ritualized and satanic gang-rape of a young boy by four priests.

The report implicates bishops of every persuasion. A fastidious conservative such as Bishop James Timlin of Scranton would not allow himself to be seated near the pro-choice Catholic MSNBC commentator Chris Matthews at a commencement ceremony, but in this report he is found writing a consoling letter to one of his priests, a priest who had just raped an underaged girl and arranged for the abortion of his own child. The tone of the letter would be no different if he were writing a priest grieving a deceased grandparent. There there, son, I know it hurts ....

If the events outlined in the Pennsylvania grand-jury report had happened among Pakistani immigrants, rather than the Catholic clergy, the perpetrators would called a grooming gang. If we treated the Catholic Church the same way as the British public treated the grooming gangs of Rotherham in South Yorkshire, we would be asking tough questions about the culture that produces abuse on this scale. We would ask questions about what twisted form of political correctness dissuaded law enforcement from identifying and confronting the criminal network until now. We might be debating our immigration policy, and possibly shutting down our embassies in the countries from which this gang receives support and reinforcements.

In fact, much of that would be the correct response. The Vatican has previously tried investigating and reporting on America’s Catholic seminaries, offering recommendations on how to fix them. The recommendations were not only weak, but mostly ignored. Not a single American bishop has emerged from reviewing the records in his chancery offices and apologized before the cops, the courts, and the news media arrived to ask about the revelations. Not a single bishop has publicly demanded that one of his brother bishops resign after being exposed for playing games with the statute of limitations. They knew about the powerful cardinal who preyed upon seminarians, they know about the decadent culture of the seminaries where priests are trained. And they tell themselves there is nothing they could really have done about it.

The problem of sexual abuse and blackmail in the Church isn’t reducible to “policy,” and the promises made by bishops to make policy changes should be greeted with extreme cynicism. The problem is personnel. For a number of reasons, the Catholic priesthood has selected for sexual deviancy. Bishops have been selected for their ability to manage legal and social risk, rather than their ability to govern and lead a religious organization ....

Other state attorneys general should do investigations like Pennsylvania’s. As a Catholic, I’m tired of waiting for the next red slipper to drop. If the Church cannot govern itself from within, then it will be governed from without. That’s not a policy, but the iron law of history.

“We are deeply saddened,” they say. Spare us this fake public-relations drivel. We don’t need your sadness, we don’t need new policies. We need better men.
Last edited by Avarachan on 26 Aug 2018 12:41, edited 7 times in total.

Avarachan
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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Avarachan » 26 Aug 2018 09:32

This is my post from June 26, 2018.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7004&p=2280121&sid=cfc02d22a1e3adef0c95f3d7cc96c8ae#p2280121

Avarachan wrote:This is an eye-opening instance of how the Roman Catholic Organization (I refuse to call it a church) wields political power to cover up its crimes.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/accounta ... a-dioceses
Mark Dent, "Grand jury report on abuse looms for six Pennsylvania dioceses"
"National Catholic Reporter," Jun 4, 2018

Pennsylvania State Rep. Mark Rozzi often tells people his emotional trauma doesn't get better. The memory of a trusted priest at Holy Guardian Angels in Reading raping him in a shower at age 13 haunts him as strongly today as it did years ago, if not worse.

He's told people about it for years — constituents, media and fellow lawmakers — but the story never felt as powerful and meaningful as it did on a recent occasion when he explained what happened in front of a grand jury in a Pennsylvania courtroom.

"It was very rewarding to get in front of people who were caring and actually listening," he said, "and can make a difference."

Rozzi is one of dozens of witnesses to testify over the last two years as the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office completes an investigation into six of Pennsylvania's eight dioceses. Later this month, the office is expected to release a report of 800-plus pages detailing widespread sexual abuse and cover-ups. The report is to come a few weeks after an Erie priest was indicted for sexual assault and two years after another presentment for the Altoona-Johnstown Diocese was released.

This grand jury presentment will feature information on the dioceses of Allentown, Erie, Greensburg, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh and Scranton. The six dioceses have already been given copies of the grand jury report ahead of the public, though they and the Attorney General's Office have remained mum on the contents.


Pennsylvania has dealt with major sexual abuse scandals before, not only those involving the Catholic Church. The Jerry Sandusky scandal at Pennsylvania State University led to convictions for assault by the former assistant football coach and for cover-ups by three prominent university officials. And recent accusations have been leveled against the now-resigned director of the Cadets, a renowned drum corps based in Allentown.

With misbehavior and cover-ups from the Catholic Church and others as a backdrop, Rozzi has been trying for six years to get Pennsylvania to eliminate the statute of limitations for civil and criminal cases involving child sexual abuse, facing stiff opposition from Catholic lobbyists.

He noted the breadth of this current investigation into the Catholic Church is far larger than any previous inquiries and warns, based on conversations with nuns and victims, that the result will be severe.

"This will probably be the worst grand jury report in the history of the United States on sexual abuse," Rozzi said.


Hoping 'to get names and assignment histories'

The grand jury for the six dioceses began meeting shortly after the report on the Altoona-Johnstown Diocese was released in the spring of 2016. The Attorney General's Office found hundreds of children had been abused by more than 50 priests and religious leaders in Altoona-Johnstown over a period of several decades. Two Franciscan friars pleaded no contest and were sentenced to five years' probation for covering up crimes detailed in the presentment. A third friar faced charges, but they were dropped because of statute of limitations issues.

It was the second Pennsylvania diocese to face grand jury findings of sexual abuse and cover-ups. In 2005, the Philadelphia District Attorney's Office released the first of what became three reports on the Philadelphia Archdiocese, with local church leaders accusing the authorities of sensationalism. In 2011, after the Philadelphia Archdiocese had vowed every child was safe, more sexual abuse was found to have occurred by still-active priests.

Dominican Fr. Thomas Doyle, a canon lawyer who has been involved in seeking justice for abuse victims and who testified twice before the Pennsylvania grand jury, said dioceses in the state have been among the worst at bringing justice for victims.

"It stands out for me because of the brazen arrogance of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia," he said, "because of the arrogance and unbelievable behavior of Bishop [James] Timlin of Scranton."

According to BishopAccountability.org, a website that tracks sexual abuse accusations by clergy, nearly 150 priests in the six dioceses under investigation have already been accused of sexual abuse. Many of the accusations were discovered and self-reported by the dioceses in the early 2000s, under the direction of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. As Doyle noted, one of the most controversial cases involved Scranton. Timlin, who retired in 2003 and is still being celebrated by the diocese, has been criticized for transferring accused priests rather than alerting authorities ....

Rozzi sees no satisfactory response besides the resignation of every bishop in the six dioceses or the bishops' providing support for the passage of legislation eliminating the statute of limitations on sex abuse cases. A measure that would also allow past victims to sue the church passed the state House in 2016 before getting killed in the Senate. The Pennsylvania Catholic Conference unleashed dozens of lobbyists to steer lawmakers, and bishops throughout Pennsylvania were outspoken in condemning the bill.

"To me it's disgusting," Rozzi said. "My word to parishioners is to stop giving the church any of your money. Until they hold themselves responsible for their actions, they don't deserve your money."

Rozzi still considers himself Catholic, though he almost never attends Mass. The last two times he said he attended a Catholic service were for funerals for two of his childhood friends who had committed suicide. They were abused by the same priest who had raped him in the shower.


http://www.post-gazette.com/news/crime- ... 1806200171
Peter Smith, "Supreme Court delays release of grand jury report on church sex abuse"
"Pittsburgh Post-Gazette," June 20, 2018

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has barred the release of a statewide grand jury report investigating sexual abuse in six Roman Catholic dioceses until further notice.

The order Wednesday from the court’s Western District did not give details on who petitioned for the delay or what happens next.
The court kept all of the filings in the case under seal except for its brief order.

From June 2016 until April 2018, the 40th statewide grand jury, convening in Pittsburgh, heard evidence on sexual abuse in the dioceses of Pittsburgh, Greensburg, Erie, Harrisburg, Allentown and Scranton.

The investigation covers allegations of sexual abuse and cover-up over the past seven decades. As a result, many of the alleged criminal offenses cannot be prosecuted under the statute of limitations, although one priest each from the dioceses of Erie and Greensburg face charges ....

Attorney General Josh Shapiro, whose office conducted the investigation through the grand jury, said in a statement, “My legal team and I will continue fighting tirelessly to make sure the victims of this abuse are able to tell their stories and the findings of this investigation are made public to the people of Pennsylvania.”

Rep. Mark Rozzi, D-Berks, who is one of the dozens of victims of clergy sex abuse who testified before the grand jury, said in an emotional statement that the court's order is a "travesty of justice and insult to all victims of childhood sex abuse."

"It's just like it's been since day one with me, kick us to the curb. Let the trash on the curb get old, maybe we'll rot and die and go away. We're not going away. I'm not going away, and I can promise that to all the victims across the commonwealth."

Mr. Rozzi added that releasing the report would have been a great step toward justice for the victims' mental and physical health. The Inquirer/Daily News has reported that one victim who testified before the grand jury attempted suicide, and from her hospital bed, implored the grand jury to finish its work.

Mr. Rozzi reiterated his call for Catholic bishops themselves to support his legislation that would remove the statute of limitations for lawsuits on sexual abuse, enabling plaintiffs to sue dioceses for decades-old abuse.

He questioned whether opposition to releasing the report is due to its naming of public officials and community leaders who enabled the church in its cover-up of abuse,
as indicated in Judge Krumenacker’s order.

The dioceses, after some legal wrangling, received copies of the report last month and are preparing responses. Under state law, those criticized but not charged by a grand jury have the right to file a formal written rebuttal.

Wednesday’s ruling came just hours after the news that retired Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, former head of the Archdiocese of Washington, D.C., has been barred from ministry after church officials confirmed a decades-old allegation of sexual abuse against him. That made him the highest-ranking official in the U.S. church ever removed from ministry since the crisis of sexual abuse by priests became a national scandal in 1984.


It is in the interest of children around the world that this report be made public. For the record, I am an Indian Orthodox Christian, and the way certain Vaticanists use Christ as a mask for their crimes is disgusting to me.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Avarachan » 26 Aug 2018 09:41

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/art ... he-vatican
August 19, 2018

While Shapiro did not directly hint at RICO violations per se, other states' attorneys general have begun laying the preliminary groundwork for their own grand jury investigations, as Church Militant was first to report Friday, most especially the state of New York, as well as Nebraska, while other indications are that states like Maryland are now raising the same questions.

If a sufficient number of states begin convening grand juries, it is nearly a guarantee that the U.S. Justice Department would also begin looking at its own grand jury to examine the question of RICO violations.

RICO is the 1970 federal law designed to bust up organized crime syndicates and their interstate activities, and it is that prospect, more than anything else, that is causing many sleepless nights in the Vatican these days.

The entire scandal has taken on a momentum now that no longer looks like it can be slowed down, much less stopped, even by those with the most to lose — meaning members of the hierarchy.

The Silence Stops Now rally, for example, planned for the bishops' annual meeting in Baltimore this coming November, has quickly picked up steam, as almost 1,400 fed up, faithful Catholics to date have committed to descending on Baltimore asking for an end to episcopal malfeasance and for those responsible to suffer the consequences and be removed from office ....

The financial impact of a RICO investigation by the U.S. Justice Department would essentially cripple the Church in America, and it would be felt instantly. And from a purely financial standpoint, the Vatican would feel that hit as well, since so much money flows from the United States to Rome each year through various channels.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby ricky_v » 26 Aug 2018 11:21

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/vatican-bombshell-mccarrick-conspiracy-uncovered/
Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, who served at the papal nuncio (that is, Vatican ambassador) to the United States from 2011-2016, has dropped an atomic bomb on Francis’s papacy, charging that “corruption has reached the very top of the Church’s hierarchy.”

In a lengthy statement, Vigano says that Francis has known for years about Cardinal Theodore McCarrick’s sexual abuse, but brought him into the pontifical inner circle anyway, and sent him around the world on papal missions.

In fact, says Vigano, the Roman curia has known about McCarrick since the year 2000, but McCarrick was protected by gay supporters honeycombed throughout the Vatican. Pope Benedict XVI ordered McCarrick out of public ministry in 2009 or 2010, but McCarrick, abetted by powerful gay allies in the Curia, defied Benedict.

A highly exhaustive article, peppered with accusations and counter accusations;containing new players that the interested can vet. The important point to note is that the highest authority(barring god himself) was in on the secret. The church's credibility is at its lowest and this would also further dent its popularity already taking a beating what with the rise of paganism/heathenism amongst the germanic/nordic and the rise of atheism amongst the "mongrel". With the morphing of the church into a cult of killer divinities(always feminine) for the mesitoz, and the infusion of voodoo practices for the black is where the church's future lies. The yanks anyways pray to their exceptionalism, and have been in a survivor mode for generations. Until recently they prayed for russian intervention( :roll: ), and now the pray for rapture; from afar their faith is just a vehicle to ferry the unhinged to the shores of blissful survivalism.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Deans » 26 Aug 2018 11:39

I'm Catholic (since I was born one) but not religious. Having made the effort to research the history of Christianity (which few Christians have) and from what I see of it in India, I believe it has lost what relevance it had, with educated people. Like elsewhere in the world, its the poorest and least educated, who are the most observant Christians. The more educated people got into it (generations ago) as it was good to follow the same religion as gora sahibs. My view is that organised religions (Christianity being the most organised) are run like a business, where you get income from whomever who can market your product to - the less educated being the easiest target.
The quality of priests are similarly regressing, (IMO) in terms of socio-economic background and ability to coherently debate points pertaining to
religion.

I've believe that child/ women abuse is rampant in India and the Church keeps a lid on it. It helps them that its not a big story for the media to follow up on.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby UlanBatori » 27 Aug 2018 03:33

Why has this suddenly come up now? (I saw something about Philadelphia where the Pope has given permission for investigations??) Not that it has been much out of the news for the past decade at least, since people started coming out with strong legal representation to take on the might of the Establishment.
Some of this is because of a culture of inciting and preying (no spelling error) on the feelings of guilt/imperfection that bothers people who may have a conscience to bother them. Added to rigid and perhaps unnatural rules. Similar things seem to get reported from all belief systems where the above are historically enforced. In the distant past there were enough victims to be found via the Inquisition/Crusade and other conversion/conquest activities.
Then again, Churches that don't have the "confession" thing also come into the news on these things. Cults that are nominally Protestant, such as the ones in Utah/ TV preachers from North Carolina etc also have made the news.
So do similar groups in other belief systems.
Not for me to comment on how intelligent people should react. In the distant past Martin Luther & Co. rebelled against the notion of a foreign-imposed authority system to dictate personal belief. I do wonder what people feel as they sing
Ah'm dreeeamin'
Of a White X'Mas!

or
Oh what fun it is to ride..
In a 1-horse Open Sleigh!

standing in the heat of a Manila or Rio de Janiero of Malloostan December. Of course I can cite equally ludicrous things in all religions, let's not go there.

The search for relevant context for very deeply held beliefs, may result in an evolution. Some of this I feel is behind current controversies about "digestion": there may be an opportunity for a far better integrated belief system that we can contemplate today.
But whatever, abuses resulting from natural but suppressed human impulses, must be approached with sensible changes, not simply the punitive/fear environment of today.
All else aside, a priest who hears Confession today is walking on a glass-spiked wall carrying a soosai vest, hain?
But I hope good ppl don't get so discouraged that they start saying:
Ah'm an Agnostic!

as Satyamoorthy Sambamoorthy (false name..) declared when he was asked. Whatever they believe, is better than not having any belief.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby A_Gupta » 27 Aug 2018 07:06

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news ... orts-81797
Ex-nuncio accuses Pope Francis of failing to act on McCarrick's abuse reports
Vatican City, Aug 25, 2018 / 07:00 pm (National Catholic Register).- In an 11-page written testament, a former apostolic nuncio to the United States has accused several senior prelates of complicity in covering up Archbishop Theodore McCarrick’s allegations of sexual abuse, and has claimed that Pope Francis knew about sanctions imposed on then-Cardinal McCarrick by Pope Benedict XVI but chose to repeal them.

Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, 77, who served as apostolic nuncio in Washington D.C. from 2011 to 2016, wrote that in the late 2000s, Benedict had “imposed on Cardinal McCarrick sanctions similar to those now imposed on him by Pope Francis” and that Viganò personally told Pope Francis about those sanctions in 2013.

Archbishop Viganò said in his written statement that Pope Francis “continued to cover” for McCarrick and not only did he “not take into account the sanctions that Pope Benedict had imposed on him” but also made McCarrick “his trusted counselor,” claiming that the former archbishop of Washington advised the pope to appoint a number of bishops in the United States, including Cardinals Blase Cupich of Chicago and Joseph Tobin of Newark.

Archbishop Viganò, who said his “conscience dictates” that the truth be known as “the corruption has reached the very top of the Church’s hierarchy,” ended his testimony by calling on Pope Francis and all of those implicated in the cover up of Archbishop McCarrick’s abuse to resign.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby chanakyaa » 27 Aug 2018 07:25

After decades of silence, nuns talk about abuse by priests
VATICAN CITY (AP) — The nun no longer goes to confession regularly, after an Italian priest forced himself on her while she was at her most vulnerable: recounting her sins to him in a university classroom nearly 20 years ago.

At the time, the sister only told her provincial superior and her spiritual director, silenced by the Catholic Church’s culture of secrecy, her vows of obedience and her own fear, repulsion and shame.

“It opened a great wound inside of me,” she told the Associated Press. “I pretended it didn’t happen.”

After decades of silence, the nun is one of a handful worldwide to come forward recently on an issue that the Catholic Church has yet to come to terms with: The sexual abuse of religious sisters by priests and bishops. An AP examination has found that cases have emerged in Europe, Africa, South America and Asia, demonstrating that the problem is global and pervasive, thanks to the universal tradition of sisters’ second-class status in the Catholic Church and their ingrained subservience to the men who run it.

...(more)


All Chile's 34 bishops offer resignation to Pope over sex abuse scandals

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby UlanBatori » 27 Aug 2018 08:13

Karma. Having exhausted the conquered peoples, no pun intended. they turned on their own, preying on the weakest and youngest. How the Church of Yeshu Kristhu came to adopt a policy of promoting predatory types to leadership positions, is a case study that should be done. It will reveal how "modern" university administrations too are run.

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Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Peregrine » 27 Aug 2018 17:26

'I will not say one word': Pope Francis stays silent over claims he covered up sex abuse - Christopher Lamb

Image

Pope Francis at the closing mass of his Ireland visit at the Phoenix Park in Dublin. (Getty Images)

Pope Francis says he will “not say one word” in response to explosive allegations from a retired Vatican official claiming the pontiff covered up sexual abuse and should resign.

Talking to reporters on board the papal plane returning to Rome from Dublin, the Pope dismissively said Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano’s testimony “speaks for itself” and he urged people to read the material carefully and judge for themselves.

In the 11-page memo – released on Sunday during the Pope’s trip to Ireland – the former Vatican ambassador to the United States says he warned Francis about allegations of sexual misconduct and abuse by former Archbishop of Washington, Theodore McCarrick.

The document was an unprecedented broadside against a pope from a senior figure inside the Church and included a long list of US and Vatican officials of being told about McCarrick’s behaviour.

“I will not say one word on this,” he told reporters during his in-flight press conference. “I believe the statement speaks for itself. And you have sufficient journalistic capacity to draw your own conclusions.”

Image
Pope Francis arrives to attend the closing Mass at the World Meeting of Families at Phoenix Park

Last month the Pope accepted the 88-year-old McCarrick’s resignation as a cardinal while authorising his removal from public ministry after allegations he had abused a child along with forcing adult trainee priests to share his bed. He is now facing a church trial.

The archbishop details how top figures in the Vatican were years ago informed about allegations against McCarrick’s and that Benedict XVI placed restrictions on him in 2009 or 2010.

But the document – which was released selectively to conservative Catholic websites – is being read in Church circles as part of an attack by those unhappy with Francis’ papacy with one commentator describing the document as exposing the “putsch” against the Pope.

VIDEO = Pope: 'I Won't Say A Word About' McCarrick Claim

Pope Francis declined Sunday to confirm or deny claims by the Vatican's retired ambassador to the United States that he knew in 2013 about sexual misconduct allegations against the former archbishop of Washington, Theodore McCarrick. (Aug. 27)

Church observers also highlighted errors and inaccuracies in the text along with citing 2014 legal documents that showed Vigano had quashed an inquiry into sexual misconduct and abuse cover-up into a prominent US prelate, Archbishop John Nienstedt.

The Pope, who repeatedly apologised for abuse in the Church and its cover-up during his recent visit to Ireland, is not planning to shift his refusal to comment on Vigano’s claims.

One of his advisers, Fr Antonio Spadaro, pointed out that Francis never defended himself against claims he collaborated with Argentina’s military dictatorship, which turned out to be unwarranted.

“He *knows* that sooner or later the truth will surface,” Fr Spadaro tweeted.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby panduranghari » 27 Aug 2018 17:34

Unless external agencies do not investigate the crimes committed in the name of catholic church, the national governments should declare all the archbishops within their territorial jursidiction as persona non grata.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby JE Menon » 27 Aug 2018 18:16

In my assessment, what is happening right now in the Catholic Church is a civil war of sorts, a vicious, quietly hidden and high stakes civil war - in which there are priests who are on different sides, taking up positions for and against the pope, and using everything from allegations of paedophila to homosexual orgies as part the battle. It is important to remember that such allegations, while true, are only tools for these men who are warring only for power and ideological ascendance. This war was largely hidden from the public eye, except for an occasional media report here or there.

In the last few days, teeth have been bared in public. The Apostolic Nuncio Carlo Maria Vigano has released a testimony which describes the broad outlines of this civil war, and it makes for fascinating reading to those who might be interested. Here is the download link:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/docume ... ERSION.pdf

Crudely interpreted, it can be laughingly described as a confrontation between the paedophile and homosexual cliques of the high priesthood of the Catholic Church. But that is, in fact, a crude interpretation because there are more than two sides - and, indeed, "wings" both left and right (described as such by the pope himself, no less), as per Archbishop Vigano's testimony. In all this, there are, clearly, good men of the cloth as it were - undoubtedly struggling to find a way to reconcile the seedy realities of the milieu they are embroiled in with the exalted expectations of those who truly believe in the son of man.

Of course, I have only mentioned the internal knife-fight so far. What is, in the opinion of the laity, I'm pretty sure much more egregious is the rampant and institutionalised abuse of children, and adults, for decades (and almost certainly centuries) in the Catholic Church in particular - though I am certain that it is not unique in this regard among the sectarian priesthoods of Jesus Christ. The matter of the rape - systematic, brutal and utterly cynical yet normalised - is becoming ever more public as evidences tumble out of monasteries, seminaries, care homes and other such across the world.

The latest revelations (from the US state of Pennsylvania), which should break the heart of any human (Christian or otherwise), brings along with it a sense of eerie dread and a hunched, lurking, sullen evil. It is almost like the graduated terror that unfolds during a well-made horror movie, with each revelation more terrifying than the previous one.

The Pennsylvania Grand Jury report on its investigation into child abuse in just 6 dioceses is pure horror. It's a 1,300-odd page report and I have started reading it. The formal title is: "40th Statewide Investigating Grand Jury REPORT 1 Interim --Redacted" (the redactions that I've encountered so far are due to continuing appellate litigation). It is downloadable, please find it those who are interested.

As I've mentioned, I have started reading it. I'm still in the introduction. It is hard to describe. It is a documentation of pure evil. Indeed, the manner in which these cruelties were carried on, and the casual disregard of anything like humanity, brings to mind Elie Wiesel's reference to the "banality of evil". I planned to tweet bits and pieces of it, expecting it would be your "run of the mill" abuse situation - that we have now become accustomed to from the church. But no, I could not continue after two tweets, so I just put a download link for the whole report on the third tweet. Somehow, even tweeting these horrors seems to leave one with a sense of being tainted and unclean... Here are links to my three tweets on the subject:

https://twitter.com/jai_menon/status/10 ... 5238301696

https://twitter.com/jai_menon/status/10 ... 1361583105

https://twitter.com/jai_menon/status/10 ... 3500944384

For believing Christians, especially Catholics, this must be a really tough period. One wonders, eventually, what the outcome of all this will be. If it results in a church that is based on the strength of belief, rather than on the sturdiness of organization, on pure faith rather than raw power, and perhaps a refocusing on the Christianity of Jesus rather than that of Paul, there may be a way for the religion to maintain its flock and its ethos - at least in "the West".

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby sanjaykumar » 27 Aug 2018 20:23

Well Deans. One has to wonder why self identification as Christian is geographically skewed in umm...reeka. Low in urban California, high in Appalachia etc. The most ‘good christians’ are to be found in Philippine slums not Boston.

We need to question whether Indian religions are any less exploitative.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby JE Menon » 27 Aug 2018 20:44

>>We need to question whether Indian religions are any less exploitative.

Avarachan has started this thread with a very clear subject. I recommend participants stick to that explicitly.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Philip » 27 Aug 2018 21:24

Can't this be merged with the general td. on global Christianity.We have such a multiplicity of tds. of a similar theme Incidentally, the RC church is not a solitary example.The Anglican church in Britain is also being accused of being " slow on the draw" regarding its own sdxual abuse scandals rivalling that of its RC counterparts.

However the Pope is coming in for scathing criticism that remorse and apologies aren't enough.The victims want justice in capital letters and are seething with rage at what they see as a whitewash.Unless stern steps are taken- action against erring priests, nor simple shunting them around with transfers, the problem will never be resolved.

But what is the root cause of such perversion? It is CELIBACY.Celibacy goes against human nature to reproduce.It's in our genes. Christ never asked his disciples to remain celibate.Many of his disciples were married.The comparative lesser numbers of such abuse in the Anglican church is because priests can marry.The RC church has fudged the issue because the financial burden would b*ggar it ( pun intended!) .Costs of married accomodation, etc. is impossible in most monastries and abbeys .It is simply unaffordable if every priest is allowed to marry.

In the very popular Catholic order Opus Dei, of Dan Brown infamy, lay Catholics, even non- Catholics can perform many responsibilities and duties of the order ,like deacons,leaving the most important sacerdotal duties to priests alone.This same system could be used by the Vatican , where married priests could look after small churches only with the basic duties of a priest in a church such as baptism, marriage, funerals, etc. The larger , higher diocesan responsibilities and positions of higher authority and titles like monsignors, bishops, archbishops,cardinals, etc.be restricted to celibate priests. There is no reason why Catholic priests engaged in educational institutions, hospitals,etc. need not be married.The top church hierarchy could follow its existing norms.

Having the option of married priests in charge of smaller parishes performing basic duties which are the most prevalent worldwide would I'm sure massively reduce the number of incidents where priests fall victim to their natural urges through unnatural behaviour!
Last edited by Philip on 27 Aug 2018 21:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Karthik S » 27 Aug 2018 21:33

Philip wrote:But what is the root cause of such perversion? It is CELIBACY.Celibacy goes against human nature to teproduce.It's in our genes. Christ never asked his disciples to remain celibate.Many of his disciplrs were marridd.The comparative lesser numbers of such abuse in the Anglican church is because priests can marry.The RC church has fudged the issue because the financial burden would beggar it.Costs of married accomodation, etc. is impossible in most monastries and abbeys .


Isn't RC (other abrahamic faiths as well) somehow obsessed with sex? All of them portray it as a "sin". There's a long debate about it with Stephen Fry, late Christopher Hitchens and few members of RC church.
Also, you are suggesting that being unable to satisfy that natural desire will lead to pedophilia. Sounds ridiculous to me.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Philip » 27 Aug 2018 21:54

Not just paedo acts.Many RC priests have been accused of having mistresses, children, etc.Why even popes in history have been guilty of the same! Take the Borgia pope for example.He had a " wife", mistresses and even made his son a cardinal!
Read the history of the Popes, entertaining stuff.

Paedo acts are found across the board worldwide,not just in religious orders, but more prevalent in purely same-sex institutions.British public schools, not co-ed for instance.Thete are several reasons for this perverted behaviour.In many cases those perpetrating these acts were themselves victims of child abuse.Sexual repression in puritanical domestic environments another, where there is little social interaction with the opposite sex.We see these despicable acts in our papers daily with child rapes, etc.While it must be stamped out , sex education at the school level must be compulsory along with moral instruction classes to orient children properly ,preventing
abnormal behaviour.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Sachin » 27 Aug 2018 22:10

33 years old nun elopes with a 40 year old man, in Kerala.
The man had met the nun when he came for a charismatic convention, and the church authorities filed a complaint when the nun was found missing. After getting a few clues, the police did pick up the man & the nun. They were produced in the magistrate's court and the ex-nun now wanted to go with her husband. Another news has to be read with this context - Nuns do not need to be virgins Vatican announces as Pope agrees holy ‘brides of Christ’ CAN have sex and still be ‘married to God’.

Looks like even the Catholic church in Kerala has accepted the changing times, and generally allow nuns who wish to get married an "exit" route. A couple of generations back, this was a big sin with even the nun's family getting victimised.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Sachin » 27 Aug 2018 22:30

Deans wrote:Like elsewhere in the world, its the poorest and least educated, who are the most observant Christians...
The quality of priests are similarly regressing, (IMO) in terms of socio-economic background and ability to coherently debate points pertaining to
religion.

The two points above seems to be be applicable for any religion, and "priesthood" is becoming a kind of a sad joke all across. And at the same time there are people who are experts in their own religious matters; who may have remained celebate out of their own wish.

Kerala with a large X'ian population has witnessed three cases in which clergy/padres were accused of "sexual misconduct" (to put it lightly).
1) Kerala Catholic priest gets double life term under POCSO for raping minor girl.
2) Kerala priest arrested on charge of impregnating minor girl. This is the second case where POSCO Act was used. And in this case two crucial witnesses (the girl & her mother) have turned "hostile witnesses". It was proven beyond doubt that the child was the biological child of the accused. When this case was reported first; the girl's own father was coerced to say that he was the culprit. The accused was actually arrested when he was executing his get away plan (to move to another country).
3) Kerala cops on Franco Mulakkal trail draw a blank in Delhi. This is the latest scandal+police case involving the clergy. In this case a nun has accused a Bishop of raping her more than a dozen times. She had tried to use various channels within the Christain religious authorities but it was of no help. The accused, Franco Mulakkal is the Bishop @ Jalandhar diocese in Punjab. In this case Kerala Police does seems to be faltering even after getting many witness statements which are against the Bishop. The last round of interrogation (!?) at Jalandhar was pretty much done at the Bishop's own terms. With the heavy flooding in Kerala, the IO of this case is now too busy with the relief & rescue camps, which gives ample time for possible cover ups.

The clergy in European countries were all powerful at once upon a time. But the citizens of these very countries also actually exposed them, and also curtailed their importance in social life. Perhaps such an "awakening" is happening in India as well.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Philip » 27 Aug 2018 23:28

Some years ago when in Rome, after the Vatican visit, my private tour guide was cynical about some aspects of the church.He said "we who live in Rome know what some of them are like", or words to that effect.The RC church, why even the Protestant churches have lost a lot of respect especially in recent years due to the unsavoury activities of their clerics.I remember what respect the clergy had decades ago and the cynicism today.The boom in evangelical " churches" is because of the decay of the established churches.However, the evangelical entities too headed by pastors and preachers , not theologically qualified properly ordained priests, have their own burden to bear , some being accused of pecuniary ambitions rather than pastoral.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Aug 2018 00:11

based on the strength of belief, rather than on the sturdiness of organization, on pure faith rather than raw power

I'll leave that for ppl to ponder - how far the departure has been, and the trail of abuses left by it through the centuries.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Aug 2018 02:01

Don't know if this posted b4, but a recap in 2010 from BeeBeeSee

I wondered if Russian Orthodox Church (not connected to Vatican as I understand it) was immune to this. But not so. They've been "Keeping the Rasputin End Up" as 007ski would have put it.

Update from BeeBeeSee 2018 Oh! I see what happened in Pennsylvania: 300 clergy indicted by a Grant Jury in one sweep, over 1000 abuse cases. :eek:

Plus, BRFees, you really need to read this link to understand a whole other history. Put this together with what you know of Goa history, and you can extrapolate to what happened around the world. South America, Central America, Southeast Asia (Phillippines?), maybe China, and all of Africa. Besides indiapakistan.

The Big 10 Universities in the US were mostly set up around Divinity Schools to train the Holy Soldiers who were to "Go Forth and Multiply" the horrors systematically. Get the Missionary Position right, etc.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Sachin » 28 Aug 2018 11:58

Philip wrote:The RC church, why even the Protestant churches have lost a lot of respect especially in recent years due to the unsavoury activities of their clerics.I remember what respect the clergy had decades ago and the cynicism today.

A common refrain I hear from friends who are Catholics is that, the rot started when the Catholic church moved from a religious body to a "business entity". The catholic church has a huge land bank, runs many schools & hospitals like pure business (and not charity). These are all administered by the clergy, who sooner or later started thinking like businessmen rather than priests. A cardinal himself being accused of shady land dealings; was said to be a classic example of how church is becoming a business enterprise.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby JE Menon » 28 Aug 2018 13:06

>>A common refrain I hear from friends who are Catholics is that, the rot started when the Catholic church moved from a religious body to a "business entity".

This comment by people (a common one Sachin), in fact stems from ignorance rather than insight. The Roman Church was a commercially oriented operation (note my choice of words) right from the very inception. Well meaning and devout Christians (the type we in Kerala are accustomed to - the older generation of unobtrusive, gentle folk who shared in our festivals as we shared in theirs) hearing all these things tend to push it off as being due to "commercialisation", "modern ideas" and so on because they don't want to be tainted by association. Understandable. But this is not the truth in any real sense.

Here are some ironies for non-Christians to ponder:

1. It is widely acknowledged that it was the Romans who crucified Jesus. Yet the Catholic Church HQ (as it were) is now located in Rome and the majority of senior clergy are Italian or Latin. And this has been the case for a long time.

2. Jesus was a Jew. So was every single one of his apostles, and the vast majority of his disciples. In fact, this was mockingly stamped on a wooden plaque on the cross (many believe) with the initials INRI (latin for Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum) - that's Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews. It is common to see this on crucifixion replicas to date. His brother James (half brother, to be clear - since James' father was not god but Joseph presumably) carried on his ministry in the initial years. There is strong academic argument that Jesus never meant his teachings to replace Judaism but to reform it. This was not welcome to the main Jewish sects (the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes and one more which I can't remember the name of, offhand). But it was the wealthiest ones, the Pharisees who (understandably) wanted to put an end to this upstart's proclamations. Willy nilly, all this led to his crucifiction by the Roman Empire's local leadership which was (again understandably), not big on martyrdom. They didn't like the idea of people offering up their lives to prove a point, didn't understand it, didn't approve of it and didn't really want anything to do with it.

3. The Christianity that people practice today draws from the teachings of Paul, a Roman citizen, formerly called Saul. He never met Jesus, and was not an Apostle, and the only credential that backs him up really is that he had a "vision of Jesus" on the Road to Damascus and this transformed him from a virulent persecuter of Christians to the main propagator of Christianity through a vast swathe of territory in the Eastern Mediterrannean area - ie. the Roman Empire of the time. Paul was the one who took the idea of "conversion" - global. Not Jesus.

4. The first bible was written in Greek, the language of the refined elites at the time (but not only, it was spoken by the ethnic Greek born too). Now remember this: neither Jesus nor any of his apostles (and possibly Paul himself was not fluent - although he was born in Tarsus which was a Greek city in what is now Turkey). So anything we have about what Jesus said or didn't say, etc is coming to us through major filters of language, time and ethnicity - to put it mildly.

The point being made is that - as in the case of the commercialization of Christianity at a very early stage - there are many facts about the historical development of this religion that its followers are not aware of. This is not to suggest that it is somehow bad, or worse than others, in this respect. One only needs to look at how historically clued in the followers of the Sanatana Dharma are to realise that. Not to mention Islam. But this lack of knowledge, combined with great financial power, results in a bull-in-a-china-shop situation when Christianity encounters other faith systems - especially when it is thrust forward with the Pauline pressure to convert societies.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby dhyana » 28 Aug 2018 13:06

Well, it would seem that the Church certainly had a prolific 'business' aspect to it.

Ireland finally says sorry to the 10,000 'Magdalene Sister slaves' of its Catholic workhouses

Women who had their childhoods ‘stolen away’, locked up in Catholic-run workhouses...

Over a period of 70 years, an estimated 10,000 were sent to the ‘Magdalene laundries’ to carry out unpaid manual labour under the supervision of nuns.

Some were sent because they were the children of unmarried mothers, others for crimes as minor as not paying a train ticket.


Incredibly the last of the ten laundries, which washed clothes and linen for major hotel groups, the Irish armed forces and even the brewer Guinness, was in operation until 1996. :shock:


And India is the one getting investigated for human rights violations by the UN? Really?

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Deans » 28 Aug 2018 14:02

JE Menon wrote:>>A common refrain I hear from friends who are Catholics is that, the rot started when the Catholic church moved from a religious body to a "business entity".

Here are some ironies for non-Christians to ponder:

1. It is widely acknowledged that it was the Romans who crucified Jesus. Yet the Catholic Church HQ (as it were) is now located in Rome and the majority of senior clergy are Italian or Latin. And this has been the case for a long time.

2. Jesus was a Jew. So was every single one of his apostles, and the vast majority of his disciples. In fact, this was mockingly stamped on a wooden plaque on the cross (many believe) with the initials INRI (latin for Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum) - that's Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews. It is common to see this on crucifixion replicas to date. His brother James (half brother, to be clear - since James' father was not god but Joseph presumably) carried on his ministry in the initial years. There is strong academic argument that Jesus never meant his teachings to replace Judaism but to reform it. This was not welcome to the main Jewish sects (the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes and one more which I can't remember the name of, offhand). But it was the wealthiest ones, the Pharisees who (understandably) wanted to put an end to this upstart's proclamations. Willy nilly, all this led to his crucifiction by the Roman Empire's local leadership which was (again understandably), not big on martyrdom. They didn't like the idea of people offering up their lives to prove a point, didn't understand it, didn't approve of it and didn't really want anything to do with it.

3. The Christianity that people practice today draws from the teachings of Paul, a Roman citizen, formerly called Saul. He never met Jesus, and was not an Apostle, and the only credential that backs him up really is that he had a "vision of Jesus" on the Road to Damascus and this transformed him from a virulent persecuter of Christians to the main propagator of Christianity through a vast swathe of territory in the Eastern Mediterrannean area - ie. the Roman Empire of the time. Paul was the one who took the idea of "conversion" - global. Not Jesus.

4. The first bible was written in Greek, the language of the refined elites at the time (but not only, it was spoken by the ethnic Greek born too). Now remember this: neither Jesus nor any of his apostles (and possibly Paul himself was not fluent - although he was born in Tarsus which was a Greek city in what is now Turkey). So anything we have about what Jesus said or didn't say, etc is coming to us through major filters of language, time and ethnicity - to put it mildly.

The point being made is that - as in the case of the commercialization of Christianity at a very early stage - there are many facts about the historical development of this religion that its followers are not aware of.


Fully agree. The best researched books I've read, is Reza Aslan's `Zealot', which elaborates on these points.
I'd add to this that even the accounts the 4 gospels (which are the basis of Catholic beliefs) are fairly inconsistent. The later gospel writers
put the blame for the death of Jesus on the Jews, in order to be politically correct (Rome having just defeated a major Jewish revolt). That
sparked off centuries of Antisemitism, which the church was often at the forefront of. The Pope, during WW2, did not condemn the holocaust.

The Orthodox church was more tightly controlled by the state and was less of a `business' than the Catholic church. During the USSR period, the
church was badly compromised by the Communists, (who recognised that religion could not be suppressed and so its credibility had to be undermined) who got priests of very dubious reputations appointed.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby JE Menon » 28 Aug 2018 17:35

>>The Orthodox church was more tightly controlled by the state and was less of a `business' than the Catholic church. During the USSR period, the
church was badly compromised by the Communists,

The Orthodox church is much less "in your face" than the Catholic version. I have lived in the Orthodox milieu (outside India) for decades and never faced proselytization. At the same time, in the same area, I have dealt with the evangelism of Catholics, Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons (who are not Christians, strictly speaking).

>>I'd add to this that even the accounts the 4 gospels (which are the basis of Catholic beliefs) are fairly inconsistent. The later gospel writers
put the blame for the death of Jesus on the Jews, in order to be politically correct (Rome having just defeated a major Jewish revolt).

I haven't read Zealot (should put it in my reading list). But you are of course right about the four gospels. The Synaptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark & Luke) which were compiled between 40-60 AD in the consensus view more or less, does not contain the same level of virulence against the Jews as the one contained in John (compiled around the 80s CE if I remember right). This was, as you rightly say, after the crushing of the Jewish Revolt around 70 AD by the Romans. They even renamed Jerusalem into Aeolia Capitoline or something like that

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby JE Menon » 28 Aug 2018 18:45

As I said, every new revelation is scarier than the last:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ch ... st-josephs

This is in Vermont!

"But for all these revelations — including this month’s Pennsylvania grand jury report on how the church hid the crimes of hundreds of priests — a darker history, the one to which Sally’s story belongs, remains all but unknown. It is the history of unrelenting physical and psychological abuse of captive children. Across thousands of miles, across decades, the abuse took eerily similar forms: People who grew up in orphanages said they were made to kneel or stand for hours, sometimes with their arms straight out, sometimes holding their boots or some other item. They were forced to eat their own vomit. They were dangled upside down out windows, over wells, or in laundry chutes. Children were locked in cabinets, in closets, in attics, sometimes for days, sometimes so long they were forgotten. They were told their relatives didn’t want them, or they were permanently separated from their siblings. They were sexually abused. They were mutilated."

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Philip » 28 Aug 2018 20:32

There is significant Aramaic influence in the original earliest Greek versions of the New Testament.There was a large Greek speaking literate population in Jerusalem at the time.They apparently incorporated the Aramaic terms
which was the native language of the people into their writings.

The turn Christianity took towards Rome was when Constantine embraced Christianity as the foremost approved Roman religion after winning the key battle of the Milvian Bridge defeating the Emperor Maxentius.He saw a vision in the sky on the evd of thd battle like a shining cross along with words saying," in this sign you shall conquer ( in hoc signo vinces)". He supposedly ordered his troops to paint the sign on their shields and went into battle with it, He thus became the sole emperor of the Roman empire.
Christians previously had been persecuted- Nero famously feeding them to the lions .They met in secret, in underground catacombs and used the sign of a fish , its letters an acronym of Jesus Christ, etc.

Constantine's mother was a most devout Christian who travelled to Jerusalem and found in a sepulchre the remains of the 3 crosses upon which Christ and the two thieves were crucified.Thd nails were also reporyedly found and sent to Romd where Constantine had them fixed to his helmet.

The immense wealth that accrued to this new Romanised version of Christianity where it became the favoured religion of the state transformed it for good. Roman "Christianity" became immensely rich as now the RC church could inherit and own property whereas for 300 years it had been persecuted. The Vatican for centuries owned much of Italy- the Papal states expanded and contracted as territories exchanged hands from kingdom to kingdom, until a self-crowned emperor, a famous Corsican, ruler of France and conqueror of Europe ,invaded Italy and forced the Pope to submit to his diktat, the Concordat of 1801. However , it was the Lateran Treaty drawn up by Mussolini that formalised the current Vatican state as we know it today.
Last edited by Philip on 28 Aug 2018 20:37, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby chetak » 28 Aug 2018 20:34

Here is another one


The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold Kindle Edition
by Acharya S.

In this highly controversial and explosive book, archaeologist, historian, mythologist and linguist Acharya S. marshals an enormous amount of startling evidence to demonstrate that Christianity and the story of Jesus Christ were created by members of various secret societies, mystery schools and religions in order to unify the Roman Empire under one state religion. In developing such a fabrication, this multinational cabal drew upon a multitude of myths and rituals that existed long before the Christian era, and reworked them for centuries into the religion passed down to us today. Contrary to popular belief, there was no single man who was at the genesis of Christianity; Jesus was many characters rolled into one. These characters personified the ubiquitous solar myth, and their exploits were well known, as reflected by such popular deities as Mithras, Heracles/Hercules, Dionysos and many others throughout the Roman Empire and beyond. The story of Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels is revealed to be nearly identical in detail to that of the earlier savior-gods Krishna and Horus, who for millennia preceding Christianity held great favor with the people. The Christ Conspiracy shows the Jesus character as not unique or original, not “divine revelation. Christianity reinterprets the same extremely ancient body of knowledge that revolved around the celestial bodies and natural forces. The result of this myth making has been “The Greatest Conspiracy Ever Sold.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Deans » 28 Aug 2018 21:54

JE Menon wrote:>>The Orthodox church was more tightly controlled by the state and was less of a `business' than the Catholic church.

The Orthodox church is much less "in your face" than the Catholic version. I have lived in the Orthodox milieu (outside India) for decades and never faced proselytization. At the same time, in the same area, I have dealt with the evangelism of Catholics, Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons (who are not Christians, strictly speaking).


What I had meant to say was that while the head of the Catholic church is the Pope, the Orthodox church does not have a Pope equivalent. They do have a `Ecumenical Patriarch' who is a `first among equals' among the various patriarchs. For a Russian Orthodox christian, the head of his church is the Russian Patriarch and not anyone outside the country. The patriarch in turn defers to the head of state (Putin), on any policy matter where both church and State are involved. The extent to which a ruler could influence church policy was the root cause of the split between Catholic and Orthodox churches in the middle ages. In a country like India, by contrast, the church can claim that they are answerable to the Vatican and not the State.

I agree (having lived in Russia) that the Orthodox church is far less `in your face' than the Catholic and evangelical denominations.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby sanjaykumar » 29 Aug 2018 01:30

The immense wealth that accrued to this new Romanised version of Christianity where it became the favoured religion of the state transformed it for good. Roman "Christianity" became immensely rich as now the RC church could inherit and own property whereas for 300 years it had been persecuted.

For good or bad...hehehe.

The Church has had a most remarkable success in profiting from the gullibility and stupidity of man. After visiting a Church licensed brothel in Southwark (across from the Thames), the Church would condemn the behaviour come Sunday morning and the poor sod would have another another few pence robbed at the plate. This income would then fund the same churches and cathedrals that would be used to prey upon the man.(Prey :mrgreen:)

The Church used to run ale houses in Canada, not to long ago; it was a great business model, get the sod sodden Saturday night and reform him come morn.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Aug 2018 02:05

I have never understood the concept of the Vatican as a sovereign nation (no pun intended). Why does a place of worship/organization of places of worship need to be a Nation? So are the followers of this religion then, agints of this nation and why don't they then need to declare themselves as Foreign Agents in the countries where they reside?

Mind you, I am not at all commenting on the belief system: just on the organizational hierarchy. There is no doubt that people who are in this system go around treating the direct chain-of-command of the Vatican as if they were demi-gawds. This seems so totally removed from the idea and the wonderful teachings of Yeso ben Ouseph, the Nazarene.

The Bishops live in (palatial) estate-mansions called, appropriately, The Bishop's Palace. (these are ppl who have renounced all interest in worldly wealth/wine/goats/wimmens/little boys? Did't Yeso put his life very literally on the line chasing The MoneyLenders From The Temple?) They have goon squads that terrify the population (and presumably silence anyone who considering speaking out about the goings-on in said estates.

When the Pope (Emperor of the whole shebang) actually comes out and expresses sympathy for a tiny few victims of his operation in, say, Pennsylvania, what is the message? Shouldn't an Interpol Red Corner notice be put out for the (I was going to say bugger, but I didn't want ppl to take it literally about His Holiness).

BTW, google "Sister Abhaya". Murdered 1992. Perps still at "Large". And Powerful. Lawd rest her soul. Here is one recent item
Sister Abhaya, a Knanaya Catholic nun, was found dead on March 27, 1992 in the Pius Tenth Convent in Kottayam. Her body was found in a well in the convent. The local police and crime branch closed the case back then, calling it a suicide.
But a year later, in 1993, the case was reopened and taken up by the CBI, after the crime branch investigation was called a sham and the police accused of trying to aid the killers.
The investigation was led by the then DySp Varghese P Thomas. It was Varghese who declared the Abhaya case a murder, before he resigned on December 31, 2003.
In 2008, 16 years after Abhaya’s death, the CBI made three arrests as part of its investigation. Two priests (Father Thomas Kottoor and Father Jose Poothrikkayil) and a nun (Sister Sephy) were arrested, but released on bail a few months later. In 2009, the CBI submitted the charge sheet in the case, claiming that strong evidence was available against the two priests and the nun.
CBI reports submitted to the special court in Thiruvananthapuram stated that according to a witness, Prof Thressyamma, the two priests had illicit relations with the nun. The CBI also claimed in its reports that the two priests and the nun had a physical relationship, and that Sister Abhaya found them in a compromising position inside the hostel and this was the motive for the murder.
On January 22, the CBI court added a former crime branch SP, KT Michael, in the list of accused for allegedly destroying key evidence in the case. Michael, who was in charge of the preliminary investigation in the death of Sister Abhaya, had closed the case saying she had committed suicide.


Basically they seem to have EVENTUALLY arrested some flunkies, leaving the real perps immune. SOP, worldwide. The polis in KL are run by... let's see... oh! The Chief Minister Himself (who has only about 75 murder suspicions on him).

But look at the courage that refused to "bend their knee before insolent might" let alone GUBO:
Action council
An Action Council was convened by Jomon Puthenpurackal in 1992 demanding prosecution of those responsible for the murder of Abhaya.[8][9]
67 nuns belonging to Abhaya's congregation petitioned the Chief Minister of the Kerala State Government to investigate the case as a homicide.[10] On 7 April 1992, the Director General of Police of Kerala directed the Crime Branch of the Kerala Police to take over the investigation from the local police. The Kerala Government, on the basis of the petition, recommended a CBI enquiry. On 29 March 1993, CBI began a new investigation.[10]


Now about the Polis:
On 29 March 1993, the First Information Report (FIR) in the case was registered by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI).[10] The CBI started investigating the death of Sister Abhaya under the direct supervision of its officer Varghese P. Thomas.
On 29 November 1996, the CBI issued the first final report.[11] The author of the report, A.K. Ohri, stated that he could not determine whether Abhaya's death was suicide or homicide.[11] The report was not accepted by the Chief Judicial Magistrate's Court.[11] On 9 July 1999, the CBI issued a second final report authored by Surinder Paul.[12] Paul concluded that Abahya's death was a homicide, but he could not establish the identity of the perpetrators.[12] Paul's report was also not accepted by the court.[12] On 25 August 2005, the CBI issued yet another report, authored by R.R. Sahay.[13] Sahay concluded that there was no indication that anyone was involved in Abahya's death.[13] The report was again not accepted.[13] On 4 September 2008, the court turned the investigation over to the Kerala branch of the CBI.[13]

Some of the initial manipulations in the case by the local police and crime branch, alleged by CBI are:
-The inquest report did not indicate the homicidal injuries on the body of Abhaya.
-The material evidence in the case was destroyed and the clothes were not subject to forensic examination
-The photographs showing injuries on the body were removed.
-The crime scene was tampered with or material physical evidence was not collected from the crime scene.
During the initial inquiry, the post-mortem, chemical examination and laboratory report also had been erased and then rewritten due to other influence.[14][15][16][17]
On 30 December 1993, Varghese P. Thomas resigned from the service of CBI and from the investigation of Abhaya's death. He had seven more years in service to retire. He had arrived at the conclusion that Abhaya's death was a case of murder and he had recorded it as such in the Case Diary. Subsequently, on 19 January 1994, he called a special press conference in Cochin and announced that he had resigned from CBI as his conscience did not permit him to comply with a strong directive given by his superior officer, V. Thyagarajan, the then Superintendent of CBI Cochin Unit, who had asked Varghese P. Thomas to record the death of Abhaya as suicide in the Case Diary. With this press conference, the case of Sr. Abhaya caught media attention all over India and the matter was strongly debated in the parliament as well as in the Kerala state assembly on several occasions.[18]


This is why the standard recommendation of UBCN is
Hang them all


BTW, I thought there was a book published by a nun/ex-nun in Malloostan that had a lot of sordid "exposures" no pun intended.

Singha
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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Singha » 29 Aug 2018 09:11

i have read Zealot recently as a coincidence.

as long as his brother James was alive, the jewish heritage of the religion and control residing in jerusalem was there. but jerusalem 2nd temple and the entire city was burned to the ground and citizens massacred by the romans around 70AD and survivors probably deported or fled from judaea and galilee - the origin of the far flung 'lost tribes of jews' as far away as india.

it was left to Saul(Paul) and Peter to carry the torch as the only high level survivors of this disaster. both went to rome, and both were executed by the romams at various times on trumped up charges of causing illness/black magic/sedition etc. Saul's background imho was not that great but he was a good writer and knew how to tailor his message to get a following. Peter imho was the dharmic one of the duo and even insisted on his execution that he be crucified upside down as he was 'not worthy of being executed in the same manner as his lord'

so for 200-300 years christianity survived as a minority religion in roman empire, with various emperors tolerant or brutal to individual degrees.
by the time of constantin it seems they were 20% in the west and 50% in the east, a fairly significant number.

then one bishop of milan whispered into the converted emperors ears and rest is history - the old religion was uprooted, its shrines destroyed or reused as churches and life made very tough for those who wanted to practice the old ways of animal sacrifice and old gods.

the other aspect is by 1000AD all the old remaining centers of christianity on the syrian-lebanon-israel coast and alexandria had fallen to islam and temple mount in jerusalem became a mosque. even now i read some 11 gates are open to muslims and 1 to non-muslims. greece became weak. orthodox christianity found new refuge in ukraine , armenia and russia with russia as its most powerful state backer.

jews were allowed to enter 1 day a year to pray at the western wall which survived the destruction of the romans.

the jewish freedom fighters who ran a rebellion against the british post WW2 styled themselves on the old militant sects like the macabees - there were a lot of them. they uprooted control of the ptolemy dynasty in egypt (alexanders general got that part after his death). the last of the ptolemaic greco lineage was cleopatra in the era of julius ceaser.

not many know that caligula had very esteemed and capable parents and grandparents. germanicus, agripinna - daughter of marcus agrippa and granddaughter of augustus. blue blooded to the core - but the murder of his siblings and imprisonment and murder of his mother took its toll on the young child.

whatever you think good or bad, the catholic church has proven itself as a seasoned survivor of umpteen crisis. the rise of western europe to world dominance in the middle ages nicely dovetailed with the idea of converting new masses...it changed from a dominant incumbent in europe into a global power P1 status.

and it still retains P1 status. 4 of the P5 are solidly in the fold. the russians will do nothing to upset the cart, lest skeletons tumble from their closet as well. all of western europe is solidly in the fold. resource rich africa and south america too.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Avarachan » 29 Aug 2018 09:16

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/27/opin ... etter.html

Pope Francis must resign. That conclusion is unavoidable if allegations contained in a letter written by Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò are true. Archbishop Viganò, the Vatican’s ambassador to the United States from 2011 to 2016, says that Pope Francis knew Cardinal Theodore McCarrick had abused seminarians, but nonetheless lifted penalties imposed on Cardinal McCarrick by Pope Benedict XVI.

No matter what Francis does now, the Catholic Church has been plunged into all-out civil war. On one side are the traditionalists, who insist that abuse can be prevented only by tighter adherence to church doctrine. On the other side are the liberals, who demand that the church cease condemning homosexual acts and allow gay priests to step out of the closet.

Despite their opposing views, the two sides have important things in common. Both believe that a culture of lies has enabled predators to flourish. And both trace this culture back to the church’s hypocritical practice of claiming that homosexual acts are wrong while quietly tolerating them among the clergy.

As the liberal Vatican observer Robert Mickens writes, “There is no denying that homosexuality is a key component to the clergy sex abuse (and now sexual harassment) crisis.” James Alison, himself a gay priest, observes, “A far, far greater proportion of the clergy, particularly the senior clergy, is gay than anyone has been allowed to understand,” and many of those gay clergymen are sexually active.
Father Alison describes the “absurd and pharisaical” rules of the clerical closet, which include “doesn’t matter what you do so long as you don’t say so in public or challenge the teaching.”

The importance of not challenging church teaching is seen in the contrast of two gay-priest scandals of the Francis pontificate. The first is the case of Msgr. Battista Ricca, a Vatican diplomat who, while stationed in Uruguay, reportedly lived with a man, was beaten at a cruising spot and once got stuck in an elevator with a rent boy. (In Uruguay, the age of consent is 15.) These facts were concealed from Pope Francis, who in 2013 appointed Monsignor Ricca to a position of oversight at the Vatican Bank.

After Monsignor Ricca’s sins were exposed, Francis chose to stand by him, famously saying, “Who am I to judge?” Msgr. Krzysztof Charamsa suffered a less happy fate. The priest, who worked at the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, announced in 2015 that he was gay and had a male partner, and asked the church to change its teaching. He was immediately fired. Both Monsignor Ricca and Monsignor Charamsa had sinned, but only one had stepped out of line.


Read the whole thing.

Avarachan
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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Avarachan » 29 Aug 2018 09:21

https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... civil-war/

One of the enduring mysteries of the contemporary Catholic Church is why so many priests know about practicing homosexuals in the priesthood, but don’t do anything about it ....

There are liberal Catholic priests, both gay and straight, who know who the sexually active conservative closet cases are, and won’t out them. There are conservative Catholic priests, both straight and chastely gay, who have no obvious interest in protecting the closet, who nevertheless don’t out liberals who are sexually active. Why is that?

A gay Catholic friend told me that it’s because both sides live under a Cold War policy of Mutually Assured Destruction. They will snipe at each other in proxy wars, but when it comes right down to it, they will not turn on each other directly, because once the first missile is fired, there’s no stopping them. Both sides know that such warfare could destroy the institution that they both depend on. So they practice restraint, despite mutual loathing.

An interesting theory. Made sense to me when I heard it.

If it’s true, though, then we have to see conservative Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano’s statement over the weekend as a nuclear bomb going off in the enemy’s capital.

Vigano said openly the kinds of things that Catholic conservatives have said privately for years. He has told tales out of school. Some defenders of Pope Francis are questioning Vigano’s motivations for doing so, but no questions about his reasons are remotely as important as this one: “Is Vigano telling the truth?”

A source reported to me recently that a prominent journalist in Francis’s circles had been saying that the McCarrick scandal had the potential to make the Church “implode.” I didn’t understand how that could happen, but now that Vigano has published, it makes sense. McCarrick is a condensed symbol of the entire web of sexual, ecclesial, and financial corruption spread throughout significant portions of the Catholic hierarchy.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Avarachan » 29 Aug 2018 10:48

I notice that posters in this thread are making all sorts of claims regarding Christianity, the origins of the Bible, etc.

First, please stay on topic. If you want to discuss Christianity in general, please open up a separate thread. I'm not sure the moderators will allow it--BRF has a long-standing rule against discussing purely religious matters--but that is up to them.

Second, in the interest of satisfying the curiosity of BRF members, I offer the following links.
Official website of the Indian Orthodox Church: http://mosc.in
Church history, from the Indian Orthodox perspective: http://mosc.in/the_church/hisrory

Regarding the origins of the Bible, I recommend the following (free) podcast by Dr. Eugenia (Jeannie) Constantinou. She's Greek Orthodox, so she's not familiar with the Pre-Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches (Indian, Syriac, Coptic (Egyptian), Ethiopian, Eritrean, Armenian). Nonetheless, this is the best free, English-language resource regarding this topic I know of.
http://www.ancientfaith.com/contributor ... nstantinou

Start with "Introduction to the Bible - Lesson 1: Overview" (June 7, 2008)
http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/se ... e_lesson_1
There are 20-25 episodes in her introductory series, and I recommend listening to them all.

Regarding Orthodox Christianity and indigenous peoples, I recommend reading about St. Herman of Alaska, the first Orthodox saint of North America.
https://oca.org/saints/lives/2016/08/09 ... rworker-of

Also, you can read "Orthodox Alaska." It would be even better to visit Alaska and investigate the matter for yourself.
https://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Alaska- ... dpSrc=srch

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby JE Menon » 29 Aug 2018 11:27

>>What I had meant to say was that

Deans, sorry if I had come across as objecting to your comments. I hadn't meant to. On the contrary, I'm broadly in agreement with your posts on this subject. I was merely elaborating a little.

Not many people in India know of these intricate differences, and frankly not many care. They don't understand the implications for us. I will be dumbstruck if ANY of the strategic think tanks in the country even consider analysis of developments outside India on the basis of religious inclinations, doctrines and imperatives - especially the Judeo-Christian. On the Islamic front they have been forced to, but only after a lot of blood was shed in and outside India of Indians and others.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Sachin » 29 Aug 2018 12:56

Deans wrote: In a country like India, by contrast, the church can claim that they are answerable to the Vatican and not the State.

That claim can only be made by the Catholic sect of Christianity. It may be totally off topic for this thread, but many people assume that Christianity to be a monolith. In a tiny state like Kerala itself there are numerous sects of Christians. Catholics (both Roman & Latin wreath) who for many purpose consider Vatican & Pope to be the supreme authority. Orthodox & Jacobite sects, who are no way connected too Vatican and Pope. The Jacobite sect consider the Patriarch of Antioch to be their supreme authority, where as Orthodox sect considers some body closer to home (at Kerala). Both these groups are heavily "Indianised" and generally clearly know what is the state's responsibility and what is the job of the clergy.

Among the non-catholics the priests are allowed to marry (but they would never be considered for promotions to higher clergy positions). How ever even with this provision, the church has not been able to come out clean when it comes to s-exual deviance from the clergy.
Abolishing confessions? Kerala church in sex abuse scandal says no way
Priest who took Kerala woman's confession blackmailed for s-exual favours, in custody. In this case the first priest not only abused the woman, but also shared her details with three other priests who also then started blackmailing her.

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Re: Pedophilia/Pederasty/Infidelity Crisis in the Roman Catholic Organization

Postby Philip » 29 Aug 2018 13:41

Not too long ago you had the Dalai Lama as both spiritual and temporal head.Henry the VIII th was head of the Anglican church and king.The Quees is still the " Defender of the faith".


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