Artillery: News & Discussion

nam
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 27 Aug 2018 17:28

ks_sachin wrote:
What makes you think direct 155 shell will not incapacitate a m109.
That shell will definitely make the m109 or any such vehicle unviable to a significant degree. There is a US army test paper I read.

I mentioned I don't know if it can or cannot. I don't have the details.
Also how's arty to be used for reverse slope position neutralisation?

For rest of the scenario today the IA is inducting WLR.


Not sure you understood my question.

Ofcourse artillery cannot be used. The only way to some extent, is mortar rounds. But then it will not have range to knock off 105MM artillery.

So my question is what are doing to neutralise Pak 105/120MM artillery on mountains? WLR can point the direction and calculate possible position. What do we do next? We cannot use airpower.

Along with being on reverse slope, on plains PA mortars are fired from trenches, giving them decent protection.

So what is our investment on countering such counter measures?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Aug 2018 19:35

nam wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
What makes you think direct 155 shell will not incapacitate a m109.
That shell will definitely make the m109 or any such vehicle unviable to a significant degree. There is a US army test paper I read.

I mentioned I don't know if it can or cannot. I don't have the details.
Also how's arty to be used for reverse slope position neutralisation?

For rest of the scenario today the IA is inducting WLR.


Not sure you understood my question.

Ofcourse artillery cannot be used. The only way to some extent, is mortar rounds. But then it will not have range to knock off 105MM artillery.

So my question is what are doing to neutralise Pak 105/120MM artillery on mountains? WLR can point the direction and calculate possible position. What do we do next? We cannot use airpower.

Along with being on reverse slope, on plains PA mortars are fired from trenches, giving them decent protection.

So what is our investment on countering such counter measures?


My apologies...

Not much can be done unless we are prepared to cross the border or launch airstrikes. The only other response to firing across the LoC is to respond disproportionately at a place of our choosing.

If WLR can point the direction nd calculate possible position then you respond in that direction and possible position with force..

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 27 Aug 2018 20:19

More LW arty pieces reqd. for the mountains with enough stocks of ammo for a 3 month conflict needed.
The approval of ATAGS is the first step.More desi arty ordered will give a huge boost to domestic industry. I forsee the most effective option to countering Paki cross-border mischief as being massive arty. barrages to grievously wound the Paki army. This will require a large number of additional arty. pieces of various types.Upgrading the erstwhile 130mm pieces to 152/55mm a worthwhile exercise.We also need extra batteries of Pinaka-ER too.

nam
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 27 Aug 2018 21:33

ks_sachin wrote:
My apologies...

Not much can be done unless we are prepared to cross the border or launch airstrikes. The only other response to firing across the LoC is to respond disproportionately at a place of our choosing.

If WLR can point the direction nd calculate possible position then you respond in that direction and possible position with force..


No need to apologize. Unfortunately our adversary does not care for civilians losses and our leaders will not allow for crossing the LoC. We did excerise that option till 2003. So firing some random amount of artillery is not going to help.

Unless technical solutions are found out, we cannot stop it.

1. Need better ways to pin point Pak position. Something like air based WLR? or air based optical sensor? Providing us with larger field of view and depth. Can a UAV or airship carry these?

2. Rocket powered or BB guided mortar? which provides extended ranges to target such position.

3. Howering missile which can monitor these position once launched and target them?

4. vertically launched missile which can mimic the trajectory of a mortar, but to longer range?

Unfortunately such requirements are not coming from IA to DRDO. Our preferred way of stopping the fire is DGMO hotlines!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 28 Aug 2018 00:03

nam,
Dhanush and ATAGs can out range the M109s.
The DRDO radar can track the locations.
What needed are those PGK fuzes to reduce the number of shells to destroy it.
Even otherwise both the systems can do the job.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby souravB » 28 Aug 2018 01:40

We need arty fired precision guided shells like US Excalibur but with a perpendicular drop feature over the target to destroy arty positions in reverse slope.
The idea of a ramjet powered shell doesn't seem too crazy anymore.
Norway's ramjet powered artillery shell
If we can destroy two positions of theirs with pin-point accuracy they will have to move back out of range and the cease fires will become a lot less bloody for us. Sure the shells will be costly but we might only need to fire four or five and it will be worth it.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 28 Aug 2018 02:29

souravB, Ramjet shell provides more range. ATAGS already has some of the longest range. the need is accuracy to hit the position. However ERFB/BB shell burst radius is quite large: kill radius is 150 feet/50m and casualty radius is 300 feet/100m. With PGK it will be 30 feet.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Picklu » 28 Aug 2018 02:42

Ramjet won't take care of reverse slope, neither would rail gun.

For reverse slope, miniaturization and ruggedisation of guidance package need to improve multiple order of magnitude.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 28 Aug 2018 03:23

X-Post...
Looks like Technology Development Fund has funded the CCF fuze development.

https://tdf.drdo.gov.in/funding_details/index/13

This was the ARDE PGK fuze of which we had heard many times.

It was supposed to be ARDE, IIT Mumbai and OFB to fabricate.

Wonder what is going on. If this is a competetion to the ARDE version?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby darshhan » 28 Aug 2018 13:50

souravB wrote:We need arty fired precision guided shells like US Excalibur but with a perpendicular drop feature over the target to destroy arty positions in reverse slope.
The idea of a ramjet powered shell doesn't seem too crazy anymore.
Norway's ramjet powered artillery shell
If we can destroy two positions of theirs with pin-point accuracy they will have to move back out of range and the cease fires will become a lot less bloody for us. Sure the shells will be costly but we might only need to fire four or five and it will be worth it.


You can easily use loitering munitions of various sizes and capacity to take out such targets. Not to mention our Air force consisting of more than 30 squadrons. Sooner or later we have to initiate them.

So I really dont see the need for such uber expensive platinum plated solutions like ramjet powered arty shells. Its like a solution in search of a problem.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 28 Aug 2018 14:17

Guided rounds are preferred over normal rounds in the LoC battle, however a key question remains.

How do you see the target? Laser guided, GPS, IN or whatever you take, you need to see the target.

If a artillery is placed on mountains pass in reverse, there is a huge valley behind the target. Counter battery rounds fly overhead and fall in the valley. They will not explode near the target because 1) you don't know how high should the round explode 2) the round will explode few mts from the ground and the "ground" would be the valley floor.

So it is not just guided rounds. We need mechanism to locate the target. Visually.

Important point: We will not be using 155 rounds. We will not be using Airforce. We do calibrated response. So pointless to discuss 155 rounds or air power or future all out war.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Aug 2018 14:37

How about use of weaponized Laksya to do photo reconnaissance and do some bombing of enemy artillery, at night visually it will be difficult to spot , can be audibaly hidden by our artillery and small arms fire, Mountains in and around LOC means I doubt Pakis will have the nessecary radar coverage to detect the small UAV.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 28 Aug 2018 16:39

Aditya_V wrote:How about use of weaponized Laksya to do photo reconnaissance and do some bombing of enemy artillery, at night visually it will be difficult to spot , can be audibaly hidden by our artillery and small arms fire, Mountains in and around LOC means I doubt Pakis will have the nessecary radar coverage to detect the small UAV.


We need high flying UAV, flying on our side, which can look on the other side of the mountains on demand, at a distance of 40-50 km from LoC. This means high power optics, net centric ops, which can guide rounds on these positions.

if not UAV, then atleast jets with high powered recon optics flying at 50k feet and above. Relay the co-ordinates back to ground units, in real time for instant counter battery. The horizon will be more than 250KM at 50K feet.

The jets would be flying safely atleast 10KM from LoC within our territory.

So what we need is optics, networking & guided rounds.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gyan » 28 Aug 2018 17:04

Reverse side of Mountain can only be hit by Prahaar or Nirbhay missiles

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Aug 2018 17:15

nam wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:How about use of weaponized Laksya to do photo reconnaissance and do some bombing of enemy artillery, at night visually it will be difficult to spot , can be audibaly hidden by our artillery and small arms fire, Mountains in and around LOC means I doubt Pakis will have the nessecary radar coverage to detect the small UAV.


We need high flying UAV, flying on our side, which can look on the other side of the mountains on demand, at a distance of 40-50 km from LoC. This means high power optics, net centric ops, which can guide rounds on these positions.

if not UAV, then atleast jets with high powered recon optics flying at 50k feet and above. Relay the co-ordinates back to ground units, in real time for instant counter battery. The horizon will be more than 250KM at 50K feet.

The jets would be flying safely atleast 10KM from LoC within our territory.

So what we need is optics, networking & guided rounds.


Looking at the terrain is what you are suggesting possible? I.e.photos.


Also can photos be converted into coords for return fire on the fly?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby tsarkar » 28 Aug 2018 17:44

ks_sachin wrote:
nam wrote:One is countering M109s. I don't know if a 155MM round can damage/knock off M109, during a counter battery fire.
What makes you think direct 155 shell will not incapacitate a m109. That shell will definitely make the m109 or any such vehicle unviable to a significant degree. There is a US army test paper I read.

If you read Parvez Musharraf's biography, in 1965 he was with a SP artillery unit operating older version of M109/M110. His best friend was killed when his SPA was completely destroyed in Indian Counter Battery fire. SPA have a tank's mobility but very minimal protection.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 28 Aug 2018 18:02

ks_sachin wrote:
Looking at the terrain is what you are suggesting possible? I.e.photos.
Also can photos be converted into coords for return fire on the fly?


Not photos, but video streaming, like the ones we see from Predators. In the case of LoC, the uav/jet has to fly quite high and look quite deep. Higher it goes, the inclination of field of view reduces.

If it can lase such positions, then even better.

The Khan may be having such a kit for Global Hawk.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vips » 28 Aug 2018 19:57

US Army builds new self-propelled Howitzer - cannon will hit 43.5 miles(70 Kms).

The Army is starting formal production of a new Self-Propelled Howitzer variant engineered for faster movement, better structural protection, improved drive-train ability, new suspension and advanced networking tech, service and industry developers said.

The new vehicle is built with a more capable, larger chassis, designed as an initial step toward building a next-generation cannon able to outgun existing Russian weapons.

As part of a longer-term plan to leverage the new larger chassis built into the Army’s new M109A7 variant, the Army’s Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center is beginning work on a new cannon able to hit enemies out to 70 kilometers (43.5 miles), senior Army developers said.

Senior Army weapons developers have explained that the current 80s-era 39 calibre Howitzer is outgunned by its Russian equivalent - a scenario the service plans to change.

A 70-kilometer target range is, by any estimation, a substantial leap forward for artillery; when GPS guided precision 155mm artillery rounds, such as Excalibur, burst into land combat about ten years ago - its strike range was reported at roughly 30 kilometers. A self-propelled Howitzer able to hit 70-kilometers puts the weapon on par with some of the Army’s advanced land-based rockets - such as its precision-enabled Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System, which also reaches 70-kilometers.

In a modern threat environment, wherein near-peer and smaller-level rivals increasingly possess precision-guided land weapons, longer-range C4ISR technology and drone weapons, increasing range is a ubiquitous emphasis across the Army and other services. Russia’s violations of the INF treaty, new S-500 air defenses, new Armata tanks and fast growing attack drone fleet - all point to a growing need for the US to outrange and outgun potential adversaries.

Furthermore, given the Pentagon’s emphasis upon cross-domain warfare, land weapons are increasingly being developed to attack things like enemy ships, aircraft and ground-based air defenses; naturally, the idea is to pinpoint and destroy enemy targets while remaining at a safer, more protected distance.

Former Deputy Program Executive Officer for Missiles & Space, Brig. Gen. Robert Rasch (Rasch is now the PEO) told Warrior in a previous interview that the service is making a decided push to upgrade and develop longer-range weapons as a way to address current threats - and re-adjust following more than 15 years of counterinsurgency.

Building a Higher-Tech, More Lethal Paladin

Following years of development and advanced engineering, the Army and BAE Systems are now formally entering full-rate production of the new M109A7 and accompanying M992A3 ammunition carrier vehicles. BAE officials said the new Howitzer, designed to replace the existing M109A6 Paladin, will have 600-volts of on-board power generation, high-voltage electric gun drives and projectile ramming systems.

​ Army developers say the A7 has a turret ring down revamp, including a new hull along with a new suspension and power-train. The new Howitzer will, among other things, greatly improve speed and mobility compared to the A6.

“In the past, the A6 Paladin was the slowest vehicle in the Army. It needs to leapfrog. We are restoring that mobility so it will be one of the faster vehicles. Howitzers can now outrun 113s," a senior Army weapons developer said.

Also, as part of maintenance, life-cycle and service extension - all aimed to improve logistics - the new Howitzer is built with an engine and other parts common to the Bradley Fighting Vehicle and emerging Armored Multi-Purpose Vehicle.

Improved on-board power is, similar to other emerging higher-tech platforms, designed to enable the vehicle to quickly accommodate upgrades and new weapons technologies as they may evolve - such as lasers or advanced ammunition.

The advanced digital backbone and power generation capability provides significant growth potential for future payloads, a BAE Systems statement said.

One senior Army official told Warrior Maven that improved combat connectivity can enable multiple Howitzers to quickly share firing data, as part of a broader effort to expand battlefield networking and operate in more dispersed formations depending upon mission requirements.

The Army has also been working with the Pentagon’s Strategic Capabilities Office to explore additional innovations for the Howitzer platform.

While initially conceived of and developed for the Navy's emerging Rail Gun Weapon, the Pentagon and Army are now firing the Hyper Velocity Projectile from an Army Howitzer in order to potential harness near-term weapons ability, increase the scope, lethality and range ability to accelerate combat deployment of the lethal, high-speed round.

The rail gun uses an electromagnetic current to fire a kinetic energy warhead up to 100 miles at speeds greater than 5,000 miles an hour, a speed at least three times as fast as existing weapons.

Firing from an Army Howitzer, the hypervelocity projectile can fire at high speeds toward enemy targets to include buildings, force concentrations, weapons systems, drones, aircraft, vehicle bunkers and even incoming enemy missiles and artillery rounds.

"We can defend against an incoming salvo with a bullet," a senior Pentagon weapons developer told reporters during prior testing of the HVP.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 28 Aug 2018 20:50

Gyan wrote:Reverse side of Mountain can only be hit by Prahaar or Nirbhay missiles

There was a news report in 2013 that Indian Army was working to replace the Prithvis with Prahaar.
Have not heard much since then.
Then there is the Pralay.

Nam counter battery radar can be used to pin point the incoming artillery location.
There are Youtube videos of the Weapons Locating Radar (WLR) from DRDO in action.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Picklu » 28 Aug 2018 21:13

A GRAD or Pinaka launched SAAW or SANT variant would be excellent to attack reverse slope.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 28 Aug 2018 21:21

tsarkar wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:What makes you think direct 155 shell will not incapacitate a m109. That shell will definitely make the m109 or any such vehicle unviable to a significant degree. There is a US army test paper I read.

If you read Parvez Musharraf's biography, in 1965 he was with a SP artillery unit operating older version of M109/M110. His best friend was killed when his SPA was completely destroyed in Indian Counter Battery fire. SPA have a tank's mobility but very minimal protection.



In the 1965 war thread, its clear Mushy was at Asal Uttar and the counter battery fire was from the 5.5 " medium guns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_5.5-inch_Medium_Gun
They were out ranged by the Pak 155mm guns but did deliver a useful 82 lb shell. Lt. Col P.R.Jesus was the officer in charge of the 91st Medium artillery there.

BTW during the Burma campaign Indian Army units developed the tactics to use 5.5" gun for direct fire as a Imperial Japanese troops bunker busting weapon.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Philip » 29 Aug 2018 15:12

http://www.defencenews.in/article/Bhara ... yer-570279

Bharat Forge expects orders for up to 4,000 guns from army; looks to become global player
Wednesday, August 29, 2018
By: CNBC
The Indian army requires 3,000-4,000 artillery weaponry in the next 15 years, said Baba Kalyani, CMD of Bharat Forge.

The defence ministry has approved the purchase of 150 advanced towed artillery gun systems at a cost of over Rs 3,300 crores. "This is a positive for Bharat Forge. There is the added tailwind of the new NAFTA agreement as well," he said.

"I think there will be many more opportunities that will come but this is a very good and a game-changing decision that the government has made,” he added.

Kalyani said that the company was aiming to become a global leader in artillery.

"In the next seven years, we want to be at the top of the league as far as artillery systems are concerned on a worldwide basis,” said Kalyani.

“In two to two and a half years, the order will get completed. This is a fully indigenous equipment, completely right from steel to forgings to machining to everything else, so hopefully we will do well,” said Kalyani.


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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 29 Aug 2018 17:20

Picklu wrote:A GRAD or Pinaka launched SAAW or SANT variant would be excellent to attack reverse slope.


Sir, how about a CBU 105 type bomb mated on a Pinaka/Smerch type rocket.

Or on an UCAV

Currently the CBU 105 is carried by the Jags

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 29 Aug 2018 17:30

Pinaka, Grad, SANT, ballistic missile, CBU etc can only be used in a full fledged war. In that scenario there is no reverse slope. IAF can directly hit them using LGB.

We are discussing the current fight on LoC, where none of these are available. And no, GoI will not ask IAF to bomb, unless Pak invades us.

Even if you want to use guided Pinaka, you need to know where to hit. And that is the crux of the problem and the reason artillery is deployed on reverse slope.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Bart S » 29 Aug 2018 17:45

Manish_P wrote:
Picklu wrote:A GRAD or Pinaka launched SAAW or SANT variant would be excellent to attack reverse slope.


Sir, how about a CBU 105 type bomb mated on a Pinaka/Smerch type rocket.

Or on an UCAV

Currently the CBU 105 is carried by the Jags


There is a Swedish hack of an SDB bomb called GLSDB that does that sort of thing.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 29 Aug 2018 18:18

Thanks.

Now that you mention it, I vaguely recollect forum member Brar_w posting some details on a similar weapon being considered by the US (I do not remember the use cases). Will check for more details.

EDIT - found it

Ground-Launched Small Diameter Bomb (GLSDB)

The GLSDB combines capabilities of the SDB I air-launched weapon and the M26 ground-based rocket motor. Designed for launch from the ground artillery system, the GLSDB provides land forces with the ability to engage a range of targets in complex operating environments.


Image

My line of thinking was to substitute the M26 with Pinaka/Smerch type rocket and the SDB with the CBU-105 type munition. Fire it over the hill. The carrier bomb separates from the rocket first. Then at an optimum height the clusters of 'smart' bomb-lets separate and parachute down to fire their charges to complete the job.

I do appreciate the challenges (technical and financial).. even seemingly minor ones like high winds in the mountains likely to blow the bomb-lets wide off course.. and am aware that the enemy location will have to be first identified by the spotters/WLRs/UAV/Aircraft.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby darshhan » 29 Aug 2018 20:09

nam wrote:Pinaka, Grad, SANT, ballistic missile, CBU etc can only be used in a full fledged war. In that scenario there is no reverse slope. IAF can directly hit them using LGB.

We are discussing the current fight on LoC, where none of these are available. And no, GoI will not ask IAF to bomb, unless Pak invades us.

Even if you want to use guided Pinaka, you need to know where to hit. And that is the crux of the problem and the reason artillery is deployed on reverse slope.


Nam, This is your assumption. Govt will do this and govt wouldnt do this etc. So no point in pressing things further. Sure you are entitled to your opinion.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 29 Aug 2018 21:04

So Manish_P,
My line of thinking was to substitute the M26 with Pinaka/Smerch type rocket and the SDB with the CBU-105 type munition. Fire it over the hill. The carrier bomb separates from the rocket first. Then at an optimum height the clusters of 'smart' bomb-lets separate and parachute down to fire their charges to complete the job.

I do appreciate the challenges (technical and financial).. even seemingly minor ones like high winds in the mountains likely to blow the bomb-lets wide off course.. and am aware that the enemy location will have to be first identified by the spotters/WLRs/UAV/Aircraft.


So will teach you conceptual design.

Please compare the M26 rocket propellant, thrust, time of burn and diameter and length to the Pinaka rocket motor parameters.
And then the compare SDB to SAAW in length, diameter, weight and guidance.
Once you have them use the rocket equation to get velocity and altitude at burn out for both.

Then do a CAD* line drawing for and can go fancy with solid model rendering.

Reason to use the SAAW is its all Indian made. CBU-105 is cluster based and will lead to use restrictions.
And DRDO just could not reverse engineer the cluster bomb (JP-233) from UK used with Jaguar despite repeated help from IAF.



Can get many free PC CAD programs from Internet.
These are more powerful than the mainframe CAD programs used to develop Trident

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ramana » 29 Aug 2018 21:16

I have a general observation.
British Military thinking always dominates thinking about how to fight the last war.

I see that both IA and IAF have spent inordinate amount of effort in trying to re-fight the Kargil War and have distorted their thinking in choice of weapons and tactics.
Krasnopol M was rejected for overshoot in thin mountain air to get isolated sangers.
Dhanush and M777 were over tested until shells burst in barrel due to beyond normal number of firings and perfectly good guns were delayed induction.
IAF has spent lots of effort on those pellet anti-personnel bombs OFB 110 and 500 Kg.

Folks it is Cold Start that has to be enabled and not re-fighting Kargil sangers.

Get more Dhanush/Sarang and ATAGS, Arjuns and better rifles, BPJ and make formations more agile. Raise enough reserve follow-on troops to exploit initial advantages.

Get more Su-30s and Tejas as both are in your control and not lust for F35 and other unobtanium.

As US $ strengthen, the rupee will sink which makes imports that much more unobtainable.
At same time will make #MakeInIndia even more feasible and desirable as PPP increases.

And quit complaining about 2% budget and learn to utilize it well.
Only US can afford the 4% as they print the $.

And cut down the infighting between services(CDS) and between MoD and services (Integration).
And above all infighting with civil intelligence services.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nam » 29 Aug 2018 22:01

darshhan wrote:
Nam, This is your assumption. Govt will do this and govt wouldnt do this etc. So no point in pressing things further. Sure you are entitled to your opinion.


Indeed and I would so like my assumption be proved wrong.

It has been 17 years since IAF fired a LGB in anger, 20 years since IA fired MBRL in anger. Within that time, thousands of soldiers and Indian civilians have been killed by Pak Army & it's terror machine.

Just pointing out that history does not provide comfort, when people discuss about GoI authorizing SDB & MBRL attacks.
Last edited by nam on 30 Aug 2018 19:49, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Manish_P » 30 Aug 2018 09:30

ramana wrote:Please compare the M26 rocket propellant, thrust, time of burn and diameter and length to the Pinaka rocket motor parameters. And then the compare SDB to SAAW in length, diameter, weight and guidance. Once you have them use the rocket equation to get velocity and altitude at burn out for both. Then do a CAD* line drawing for and can go fancy with solid model rendering.


Yes. I know. Hence i said 'type of' (meaning develop).. not use the actual current weapons (with their restrictions).

ramana wrote:Reason to use the SAAW is its all Indian made. CBU-105 is cluster based and will lead to use restrictions.

Use restrictions as in technical, operational or political?
The SAAW is a good weapon for runway denial. Would not a cluster type bomb with it's spread of sub-munitions be better for attack on spread out artillery?

ramana wrote:Can get many free PC CAD programs from Internet.
These are more powerful than the mainframe CAD programs used to develop Trident

I have a couple on my PC (courtesy my engineer brother). But engineering is not my field. I will defer to the experts, here on this forum and in our Military Labs.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Rishi_Tri » 30 Aug 2018 21:20

ramana wrote:I have a general observation.
British Military thinking always dominates thinking about how to fight the last war.

I see that both IA and IAF have spent inordinate amount of effort in trying to re-fight the Kargil War and have distorted their thinking in choice of weapons and tactics.
Krasnopol M was rejected for overshoot in thin mountain air to get isolated sangers.
Dhanush and M777 were over tested until shells burst in barrel due to beyond normal number of firings and perfectly good guns were delayed induction.
IAF has spent lots of effort on those pellet anti-personnel bombs OFB 110 and 500 Kg.

Folks it is Cold Start that has to be enabled and not re-fighting Kargil sangers.

Get more Dhanush/Sarang and ATAGS, Arjuns and better rifles, BPJ and make formations more agile. Raise enough reserve follow-on troops to exploit initial advantages.

Get more Su-30s and Tejas as both are in your control and not lust for F35 and other unobtanium.

As US $ strengthen, the rupee will sink which makes imports that much more unobtainable.
At same time will make #MakeInIndia even more feasible and desirable as PPP increases.

And quit complaining about 2% budget and learn to utilize it well.
Only US can afford the 4% as they print the $.

And cut down the infighting between services(CDS) and between MoD and services (Integration).
And above all infighting with civil intelligence services.


++

ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 31 Aug 2018 05:19

darshhan wrote:
nam wrote:Pinaka, Grad, SANT, ballistic missile, CBU etc can only be used in a full fledged war. In that scenario there is no reverse slope. IAF can directly hit them using LGB.

We are discussing the current fight on LoC, where none of these are available. And no, GoI will not ask IAF to bomb, unless Pak invades us.

Even if you want to use guided Pinaka, you need to know where to hit. And that is the crux of the problem and the reason artillery is deployed on reverse slope.


Nam, This is your assumption. Govt will do this and govt wouldnt do this etc. So no point in pressing things further. Sure you are entitled to your opinion.

Nam is right. Its not what govt will but rather what choices it has.

Live with thousand cuts or escalate and finish it off. We choose to live with 1000 cuts and so unless PA arty is on LoC we will not aggressively neutralise.

Vips
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 07 Sep 2018 05:31

South African firm Denel taken off the defence blacklist after settlement agreement.

Arms manufacturer Denel has been taken off an Indian defence ministry blacklist after the South African company signed a settlement agreement that waived off almost $ 100 million that it would have been entitled to following arbitration proceedings.

The final settlement agreement was signed on July 19, days ahead of a BRICS summit in Johannesburg that will be attended by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, and details how the company was put on the blacklist in 2005, on the basis of two newspaper reports in South Africa. Charges of corruption in the news reports could not be validated during a subsequent CBI inquiry, leading it to file a closure case in 2014.

Formal orders to take Denel off the blacklist were issued on Wednesday, bringing an end to a 13 year exile for the company from the world’s largest market for military imports. While it was cleared of all charges in 2014, it was unable to restart work in the lucrative arms market as legal proceedings were on for several past deals where India had frozen or encashed its bank guarantees.

After the suspension of operations, all ongoing contracts with Indian defence ministry entities had been cancelled, leading to litigation and arbitration that went on for years. ET has learnt that the company has agreed to forfeit almost $ 100 million for the right to come back to the Indian market and a removal from the official blacklist.

The South African entity, which also has joint ventures with debarred firm Rheinmetall, has been keen for a return to the Indian market after the Modi government opened doors for partnerships with private sector companies for major manufacturing projects. Several rounds of meetings have been held with the private sector over the past two years, including companies that have recently entered the defence market. The company is particularly suited for upcoming orders for ammunition supplies to the armed forces in which Indian companies have to create new facilities.

The company’s troubles in India started in 2005, after the defence ministry put all contracts with it on hold. Investigations probed two contracts that the firm had signed in India, a Rs 78 crore deal for procurement of 400 anti material rifles and a Rs 66 crore transfer of technology contract with the Ordnance Factory Board but failed to find any proof of corruption.

sarabpal.s
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby sarabpal.s » 07 Sep 2018 17:56

So Bhim can make a comeback?

nam
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 07 Sep 2018 17:59

We already have K9s. It does not make sense to built another SPH.

Even if we do, then it will have ATAGS barrel. So Denel is not coming back.

Philip
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 07 Sep 2018 19:02

Ramana your gen. obs. are spot on.Build at home what we've mastered in our grasp.Saves valuable forex esp. with the rupee's plunge.I can't understand the IAF's attitude towards the Rafale, as if without it the battle is lost , never ever mentioning its comparative cost with other aircraft in service and contention and as if we have no alternatives.

The huge efforts by pvt. industry and the OFB with the desi Bofors in developing arty. must be lauded and swiftly rewarded as there is a major shortage.If Paki terrof continues unabated, a war of attrition across the LOC through concerted and selected targets on the Paki side must take place.It is only by causing v.heavy casualties of Paki regular forces, not their irregulars and jihadis who are available a rupee a dozen, that will make Pak relent.The Paki army must bleed heavily as retribution for its asymmetric warfare using CBT .UCAVs too taking out specific mil. targets and jihadi centres should be ghe order of the day.

One major concern is the massive increase in Paki nukes which are is the fastest growing nuclear arsenal in the world.Cold Start ops may be faced with Paki mini-nukes even at early stages of a conflict.

Gyan
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 09 Sep 2018 10:51

With few nukes & 50 year old equipment, North Korea is able to stare down USA, Japan & SK. While we go around whinning all over the world throwing our dollars at each & every arms dealer.

pankajs
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby pankajs » 09 Sep 2018 11:28

Gyan wrote:With few nukes & 50 year old equipment, North Korea is able to stare down USA, Japan & SK. While we go around whinning all over the world throwing our dollars at each & every arms dealer.
So true. They can hold US/SoKo/Japan to ransom but can they do anything more expect rant, rave and threaten to nuke?

If we want to emulate North Korea we have sufficient nukes to "stifle our own people" just like North Korea but if we want to emulate China we don't have enough weapons. So we emulate China and develop, buy, borrow, beg or steal more weapons not just nukes.

One learns new thing everyday but I did not think I would hear/read North Korea being a reference point for India/Indian developments.

Btw, if this line of thinking makes me/India a sissy like China so be it. I don't want India to be spunky like North Korea. I want India to be a toned down version of the China from before 2008.

VinodTK
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 10 Sep 2018 19:08

Rolling out big guns: Two big shows for ‘Make in India’
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One function is planned in Gujarat, where the K 9 ‘Vajra’ self-propelled artillery guns are being made while talks are on for a possible joint firing exercise with the M 777 ultra-light howitz ers at a range in Maharashtra, sources familiar with developments told ET.

The ‘Vajra’, a 155 mm howitzer ordered by the Indian Army in April 2017 after a global competition that was won by Larsen and Toubro, is likely to be handed over at a formal ceremony at the new Hazira facility over the next ..

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