Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

[Prasad]

L&T, if they have plans for an AMCA line in Coimbatore could make a big bid for that 3rd line btw.

[Trikaal]

They need to give this to either Mota Bhai (Don't ever make the mistake of giving it to Chota Bhai !!!), or TATA Aerospace LTD, or L&T as the final integrator.
TASL and L&T already make parts, they can easily be the final integrators as well

I don't think mota bhai has any experience in defense manufacturing. Chota bhai on the other hand, is doing reasonably well in shipbuilding(probably one of the only initiatives of his that are working out).

[Indranil]

Reasonably well? It's an NPA!

[nam]

TASL is probably the only worth while candidate, as a full system integrated.

However the chances of them building a complete LCA is remote. HAL's response probably depends on AM's retirement date. If it near by, then HAL will make a "good idea comment" and wait for AM to retire. If it is longer, MoD will be soon be asked to shut the deputy air chief down, with a threat of union strike.

[SaiK]

Private is already in with LRUs. It is a straw man attack.

[ArjunPandit]

TASL is probably the only worth while candidate, as a full system integrated.

However the chances of them building a complete LCA is remote. HAL's response probably depends on AM's retirement date. If it near by, then HAL will make a "good idea comment" and wait for AM to retire. If it is longer, MoD will be soon be asked to shut the deputy air chief down, with a threat of union strike.

Playing devils' advocate, Wouldnt MoD may get greased because of this? getting blue prints done by indian tax payers will be provided to these vendors. Even some of these HAL folks can join these companies and get paid more (goes without saying that they will have to work more there)
3rd line is essential, as ramana guru quoted thats the price of 1 avenger drone quoted to us. In the grand scheme of things, it is nothing. Get this thing done and have a long term competition to HAL.
Right now we can't even think of exporting Tejas because of our own requirements. On the back of ~200 orders, we can certainly work it out better.

[Trikaal]

^HAL will guard the interests of its employees a lot more fiercely than any national interests. So there is no way greasing pqlms will work out for private players. Greasing works against other private entities, not government ones.

As for poaching employees, what's wrong with that? If an individual has talent, doesn't it deserve to be recognized with higher paychecks? If HAL can't appreciate the talent they have, they will surely lose out. Good employees invariably move towards higher paychecks in any competitive market.

[Kersi]

^HAL will guard the interests of its employees a lot more fiercely than any national interests.

[ks_sachin]

^HAL will guard the interests of its employees a lot more fiercely than any national interests.

Why are we asking of HAL that we ourselves dont demonstrate. Where would you put the IAs decision to not be able decide on a small arms caliber in the spectrum of negligent thinking that adversely affects the nation?

[Trikaal]

^I agree, changing specifications routinely negatively affects the nation. However, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because Army is hurting defense manufacturing by failing to settle on small arms specifications doesn't mean HAL is justified in worrying about its bottomline and employee benefits more than nation's war preparedness.

[ks_sachin]

I am not saying they are justified but the fact is that is the reality.

Two wrongs dont make a right but stating something obvious is a waste of my time when I come to the forum to read something original not to mention that it does in no way add a ything new to the table.

Just saying!!

[tsarkar]

Why are we asking of HAL that we ourselves dont demonstrate. Where would you put the IAs decision to not be able decide on a small arms caliber in the spectrum of negligent thinking that adversely affects the nation?

In the 80's & the Sundarji & Brasstacks Era, we were planning a conventional war to take back PoK. We were inducting hordes of T-72 and BMP-2 and MiG-23BN+MiG-27M for ground attack and Bofors was to be manufactured by OFB. Pakistan was inducting F-16s and evaluating M1 tanks. For those kind of conventional wars 5.56x45 with flatter trajectory over long ranges and greater ammunition load was appropriate.

Today we're engaged in COIN for which 7.62x39 is appropriate for bulk of our forces. Has mass and stopping power and most encounters are in relatively short ranges.

For Strike Corps and Pivot Corps doing cold start and salami slicing, 7.62x51 is appropriate. It has both range and stopping power. Large ammunition loads are not required since forces will be supported by MMG, BMP, T-90, Pinaka, Dhanush, ATAGS.

Circumstances changes and requirements change as per circumstances.

Both our posts are off topic for Tejas and further discussion can be continued in Indian Army or Small Arms Thread.

[nam]

Playing devils' advocate, Wouldnt MoD may get greased because of this? getting blue prints done by indian tax payers will be provided to these vendors. Even some of these HAL folks can join these companies and get paid more (goes without saying that they will have to work more there)
3rd line is essential, as ramana guru quoted thats the price of 1 avenger drone quoted to us. In the grand scheme of things, it is nothing. Get this thing done and have a long term competition to HAL.
Right now we can't even think of exporting Tejas because of our own requirements. On the back of ~200 orders, we can certainly work it out better.

Private companies who want to venture in aerospace, would need experienced people joining in. Why would anyone experienced in HAL would want to give away a government job safety + pension and join a private sector company, who may never get any orders? Most of babus join after retirement, making sure their pension pot does not get effected.

HAL is now a publicly listed company. It has taken money from the capital market. What is stopping it from investing in good practices?

Ultimately it flows from the top. GoI. GoI is more terrified of bad press, union strikes than security of the nation.

If the Chinese had not done their little shooting on the square, they would have had similar access to tech, that we do from western countries. Imagine what would have the state of Chinese arms sale.

Here safety of government job is more important anything else.

[Trikaal]

I am not saying they are justified but the fact is that is the reality.

Two wrongs dont make a right but stating something obvious is a waste of my time when I come to the forum to read something original not to mention that it does in no way add a ything new to the table.

Just saying!!

The quote was a part of a longer reply to another poster's comment. If you read it without context, ofcourse it will seem like stating the obvious.

[SaiK]

Check out @livefist’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/103 ... 49728?s=09

[Manish_P]

Smoooooth

Awesome feeling!

A day shall come when even the Tanker will be an indigenous one.

[prat.patel]

Check out @livefist’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/103 ... 49728?s=09

Awesome!!!!!

[tsarkar]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1038050614360649728?s=09

Note monsoon skies when the inherent turbulence in the atmosphere is more. Great going!

[SaiK]

well turbulence is not good for testing nor one would want to suckle fuel while over any cloud formation during real ops. Unless, both the probe and drogue are intelligently seeking each other in highly turbulent environment. It can be built!

[Rishi_Tri]

How authentic is this - http://idrw.org/indigenous-uttam-aesa-r ... as-report/ ? Thanks.

[Kakarat]

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/1006111056509325312

Brochure of LRDE AESAR from Defexpo2018 showing AESA Radar test integration with LCA Tejas

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfZrOs1UcAASkcV.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfZrQePVMAAoox5.jpg

My post was on 11 june and the article date is 13 june
I should have watermarked over the photo of Tejas with Uttam

[fanne]

A radar by itself is useless without an accompanying radar guided missile (medium and long range). Short range IR missiles are also more effective if initial cueing is done by the radar (though not critical). We have a medium range Astra that has to be integrated. That's it. Perhaps a long range Astra with the same seeker can be done fast. But dual/triple band seekers (mixture of IR/laser/Radar) is where the world is now (even IR have two bands). Now other EOM will give AA missile to integrate with our Radar. We have to develop our own. If we are serious, we should double/triple our effort in AA area and get them ready in 2-3 years to go with Uttam.

[SaiK]

I'd believe UTTAM is ready. More than enough information available, and true. We do have russkie, Israeli and french stores available to test

[Vips]

Youtube video of the in-flight refueling test by Tejas.

[Rakesh]

Cross post

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 2563232768

@writetake

So, @IAF_MCC Vice Chief AM SP Deo says the 3rd production line (or 2nd if Aircraft Div is counted out) for #Tejas, must go to a private party and not #HAL. Anything that comes quickly and money stays in the country, we are fine, he is quoted in TOI. So everyone wants a HALt!

I am late to the party, but BLOODY BEAUTIFUL!!!! Thank you so much Pankaj for posting this.

Very important statement from the IAF, because HAL needs to wake up. Now that the IAF is on board, it is the GOI that needs to be convinced as well. Open a third line at TASL and churn out Tejas. Make in India!

Video of Air Marshal S B Deo saying the above.

[Manish_P]

well turbulence is not good for testing nor one would want to suckle fuel while over any cloud formation during real ops. Unless, both the probe and drogue are intelligently seeking each other in highly turbulent environment. It can be built!

Any info on what was the camera platform ?

[SaiK]

well turbulence is not good for testing nor one would want to suckle fuel while over any cloud formation during real ops. Unless, both the probe and drogue are intelligently seeking each other in highly turbulent environment. It can be built!

Any info on what was the camera platform ?

previous page: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7630&start=2120#p2292734

[Manish_P]

^ Yay. Just what i hoped for (smoother and smoother). Jingo kush hua.. bahut kush hua!

Thanks.

[suryag]

The folks make it seem like a routine ISRO naarmal test, these guys are marvellous

[Yagnasri]

Mango question gurus: Is there any serious and timebound plan to test Tejas with Kaveri?

[Rakesh]

Mango question gurus: Is there any serious and timebound plan to test Tejas with Kaveri?

VERY MUCH SO!

Tejas flying with a certified Kaveri turbofan is the ultimate goal. It is India's penulimate hurdle.

We complete this hurdle and we will have achieved greatness! Huge lungi dance moment. It will come.

[fanne]

and the vehicle earmarked for that is PV-6

[Rakesh]

^^^ Thanks for that fanne!

-------------------------------------------

I do not know if the tweet below is extrapolating info that from an interview that Air Marshal Deo gave. But wow....24/aircraft per year is amazing.

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 9715886080 ---> A third production line for the Tejas will be prepared under private sector to bring up capacity to 24/year - Air Marshal SB Deo (Vice Chief of Indian Air Force). More details expected soon.

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 7325843456 ---> HAL is already in the process of setting up a second line that will be ready by March 2019 to take production capacity to 16/year.

[SaiK]

Mango question gurus: Is there any serious and timebound plan to test Tejas with Kaveri?

no time will be set, until we take a relook at GTRE as an org. We have other performing orgs to learn from and adapt to. Kaveri is extreme engineering, and can't be funded or done this way.

or wait for bail out from safran.

[SaiK]

Mango question gurus: Is there any serious and timebound plan to test Tejas with Kaveri?

no time will be set, until we take a relook at GTRE as an org. We have other performing orgs to learn from and adapt to. Kaveri is extreme engineering, and can't be funded or done this way.

or wait for bail out from safran.

perhaps the later is in effect:
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/ebooks ... age27.html

[Rakesh]

A good article by Anantha Krishnan M on the future direction of HAL.

R Madhavan to steer HAL amid headwinds
https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... enges.html

[Yagnasri]

Maybe a bit OT and there is a reason why I asked the question on Kaveri. Unless we have Kaveri power Tejas, we may not really have safely as the US sanctions treat will always be there. Non-availability of Kaveri may be biggest or even prove to be a fatal weakness of the Tejas program.

How safe we are on GE maintenance and how protected we are if there are future sanctions? I understand from here that GE has an excellent record on their engines but can they be used by us without GE support for an extended period of time? I mean years and years? If we are ordering GE engines in large numbers should we not order spare parts etc along with replacements required and keep them in reserve so that we are sanction-proof. Funding should be made a priority if needed for this. We may even ask for some local production of spare parts etc. Did I miss any reports on this?

[Rakesh]

No engine Yagnasri can survive for any length of time, without the required maintenance and the replacement of worn out components. So if sanctions come, we will be in a bind. It is for this very reason, that the Kaveri must fly and must be certified.

However stocking up on spares - for an extended length of time - may not work either. I believe they may have some defined shelf life. I could be completely wrong here. Someone like IR or Karan M will need to answer that.

[Khalsa]

Check out @livefist’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/103 ... 49728?s=09

Awesome!!!!!

Bloody good ... another massive step towards the FOC
Damn ...this deserves a bottle opening ceremony next weekend.

[Khalsa]

and the vehicle earmarked for that is PV-6

How do we know this ?
I am not challenge the validity ... I am pumped to hear about this. Could you tell us more ?