Small Arms Thread

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ks_sachin
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Oct 2018 16:03

nam wrote:On the topic of 7.62x51, a reliasation that our war with Paks is going to be static on the LoC. Smaller caliber is not going to cut it and IA currently is forced to provide AK even to troops on LoC, to give them the range required to target Paks on the mountains tops.

Going 7.62x51 negates the need for 2 caliber rifles. So LoC troops are going to get the Sig rifle.

So why are we going 2 calibers?
The argument around stopping power has been made for CI troops as well yet we will give RR a 5.56 caracal.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nam » 13 Oct 2018 16:06

ks_sachin wrote:
nam wrote:On the topic of 7.62x51, a reliasation that our war with Paks is going to be static on the LoC. Smaller caliber is not going to cut it and IA currently is forced to provide AK even to troops on LoC, to give them the range required to target Paks on the mountains tops.

Going 7.62x51 negates the need for 2 caliber rifles. So LoC troops are going to get the Sig rifle.

So why are we going 2 calibers?
The argument around stopping power has been made for CI troops as well yet we will give RR a 5.56 caracal.


caracal are carbine replacement. They are not replacing RR AKs.

Sig are battle rifle replacement.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Oct 2018 07:05

nam wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:So why are we going 2 calibers?
The argument around stopping power has been made for CI troops as well yet we will give RR a 5.56 caracal.


caracal are carbine replacement. They are not replacing RR AKs.

Sig are battle rifle replacement.


So caracal will replace the 9mm SMG and thhe Sig will replace the INSAS.

We have about 350 inf bns. Assuming combat component of 500 troops per bn that works out to a lot more tha than the 72000 sigs we are buying...

Senseless nonsence..

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Oct 2018 07:17

This thread rivals the flight safety thread in the level of depression it creates....

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jpremnath » 14 Oct 2018 08:43

ks_sachin wrote:This thread rivals the flight safety thread in the level of depression it creates....


The short sightedness and lack of concern for strategic implications displayed by the men leading procurement at our forces is what is most depressing.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Oct 2018 13:01

SouravB
One for you.
https://youtu.be/Ij7b1te6LHo

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Oct 2018 13:02

ParGha / ThakurB

Is the Sig going to be one per section?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Oct 2018 13:25

The last great rifle India produced.

https://youtu.be/QPzL-3LNv_k

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nam » 14 Oct 2018 14:28

ks_sachin wrote:So caracal will replace the 9mm SMG and thhe Sig will replace the INSAS.

We have about 350 inf bns. Assuming combat component of 500 troops per bn that works out to a lot more tha than the 72000 sigs we are buying...

Senseless nonsence..


Quotes by IA chief mention that frontline troops will receive imported 7.62x51 rifles under a fast track deal. He also mentions that imported rifles will be expensive to arm the entire army, so the remaining units will receive a Indian made( or i presume indian assembled) rifle.

I presume he means units on LoC and RR, when he says frontline troops. Regarding the Indian made gun, I have no idea which one will be used.

It there is a deal to locally produce Sigs, it sounds fine with me. We have a huge small arms requirement, if we consider IA and CPF units.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Oct 2018 15:24

nam wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:So caracal will replace the 9mm SMG and thhe Sig will replace the INSAS.

We have about 350 inf bns. Assuming combat component of 500 troops per bn that works out to a lot more tha than the 72000 sigs we are buying...

Senseless nonsence..


Quotes by IA chief mention that frontline troops will receive imported 7.62x51 rifles under a fast track deal. He also mentions that imported rifles will be expensive to arm the entire army, so the remaining units will receive a Indian made( or i presume indian assembled) rifle.

I presume he means units on LoC and RR, when he says frontline troops. Regarding the Indian made gun, I have no idea which one will be used.

It there is a deal to locally produce Sigs, it sounds fine with me. We have a huge small arms requirement, if we consider IA and CPF units.

Does not add up.

What does frontline mean? Troops on the front line or frontline troops?

You yourself earlier said RR will stick with AK

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nam » 14 Oct 2018 15:40

ks_sachin wrote:
nam wrote:
Quotes by IA chief mention that frontline troops will receive imported 7.62x51 rifles under a fast track deal. He also mentions that imported rifles will be expensive to arm the entire army, so the remaining units will receive a Indian made( or i presume indian assembled) rifle.

I presume he means units on LoC and RR, when he says frontline troops. Regarding the Indian made gun, I have no idea which one will be used.

It there is a deal to locally produce Sigs, it sounds fine with me. We have a huge small arms requirement, if we consider IA and CPF units.

Does not add up.

What does frontline mean? Troops on the front line or frontline troops?

You yourself earlier said RR will stick with AK


As i mention, my understanding of frontline troops is LoC & RR. Obviously once the rifles are issues, we will know which units are receiving it.

Sig is replacing Insas, not AK. If COIN troops are using Insas, i take they will be replaced with Sig.

in my earlier post, AKs are not getting replaced by caracal. I don't know if some AKs will be replaced by Sig.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 14 Oct 2018 16:09

ks_sachin wrote:SouravB
One for you.
https://youtu.be/Ij7b1te6LHo

It is the LMT DMR rifle. It is also used by NZ infantry as DMR. India also was offered a version of it with a shorter 16" barrel for the FT battle rifle tender.
It has been touted as one of the two best rifles of it's category and is pretty costly compared to the Sig.
I was actually rooting for this rifle in the tender not knowing Sig is also on the run. Nevertheless a beautiful piece of hardware. :D
nam wrote:As i mention, my understanding of frontline troops is LoC & RR. Obviously once the rifles are issues, we will know which units are receiving it.

Sig is replacing Insas, not AK. If some COIN troops are using Insas, i take they will be replaced with Sig.

I said in earlier post that AKs are not getting replaced by caracal. I don't know if some AKs will be replaced by Sig.

As per my understanding, The soldiers that are at LOC/LAC guarding our posts are the Frontline soldiers. They need to engage enemy at a much greater distance. This is where the NATO round will come in handy.
RR do not have any need for heavier round as of this moment because they are engaged in urban warfare where the heavier round is less suited to work effectively. 5.56 carbines would be preferable over AKs in that area from accuracy and bullet numbers perspective. They will continue to use AKs for the time being but expect to see more 5.56 as they make the transition.
I agree with your point in the bold but I think COIN troops are getting Carbines.
I do not have much idea how much this assessment might change after the re-structuring of IA. The Frontline and COIN troops are going to be packaged together as IBGs.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 16 Oct 2018 03:46

Here is what I have gathered from the published news reports:

Gen Rawat himself has defined the frontline troops (the ones who will receive the SiG) as 'the ones who face the enemy with the rifle as their primary weapon'. I assume that to be the infantry units facing the Chinese and Pakistanis across the LAC, IB, and the LOC.

The Caracal Carbine is to replace the Sterlings.

I think the RR units will get the AK-103 as their primary weapon, and the Caracals for CQB.

JMT

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 16 Oct 2018 09:12

nam wrote:On the topic of 7.62x51, a reliasation that our war with Paks is going to be static on the LoC. Smaller caliber is not going to cut it and IA currently is forced to provide AK even to troops on LoC, to give them the range required to target Paks on the mountains tops.

Going 7.62x51 negates the need for 2 caliber rifles. So LoC troops are going to get the Sig rifle.


AKM and range is the biggest oxymoron out there. On border, its underrated INSAS lmg with 21 inch barrel and great accuracy, most readily available mid range weapon that is used to harass and take down paki troops.
Last edited by Thakur_B on 16 Oct 2018 10:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Oct 2018 10:15

+1.
1) 7.62*51- Long Barrel, high recoil and very good stopping power- good for engagements over 150-200 meters and with scope can even hit targets 800 meters, ammunition can be shared with snipers, good for LOC, LAC, deserts and whereever long range enhancements

2) 7.62*39- shorter barrel, lesser recoil, good stopping power but bullet tends to drop, needs an expert to keep it on target more than 100 meters. Very good for short range engagements.

3) 5.56*45- Shorter barrel, light ammunition, poor stopping power, can be accurate upto 400-500 meters, but in short range engagements with suicidal jihadis lacks the critical stopping power, and can be easily outranged on LOC/LAC with 7.62*51 rifles. A case of aping USA after LTTE experience in SL jungles. I am happy if we move away from this. Our forces are never going to spray bullets with SAW type weapons.

4) 9 mm, light and but not body Armour piercing, good for extreme short range assault or self defense less than 25 meters. Can be back up weapon for snipers when the targets come too close or for drivers, officers, or when you physically reach a Sanger or machine gun nest during assault engage multiple targets. Probably the easiest weapon to use by someone who uses it part time. But you can't really engagement someone with a AK at a range greater than 20 meters, and probably lacks stopping power. See what happened to our NSG engaging Jihadis at Pathankot, they Jihadis outgunned them.

We seem to finally hit the logical 2 rifle per jawan based on deployment.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 16 Oct 2018 16:23

Aditya_V wrote:3) 5.56*45- Shorter barrel, light ammunition, poor stopping power, can be accurate upto 400-500 meters, but in short range engagements with suicidal jihadis lacks the critical stopping power, and can be easily outranged on LOC/LAC with 7.62*51 rifles. A case of aping USA after LTTE experience in SL jungles. I am happy if we move away from this. Our forces are never going to spray bullets with SAW type weapons.

Aditya_V ji, stopping power or kinetic energy of bullets depend less on weight and more on velocity. A 5.56NATO is much faster and weighing at 4.5g will have more stopping power than an 8g 7.62AK round due to sheer velocity. And then comes all the other factors to consider like recoil, accuracy, carrying capacity which gets almost double for same weight.
The AK round is reliable, due to less variation of ammunition available and if my life is on line I'd like a gun which fires every time rather than a gun which fires sometimes but accurately.
Truth be told our forces pick up AKs because
the alternative they have in Insas is going to get them killed. Nevertheless I agree with all the other points you made.
4) 9 mm, light and but not body Armour piercing, good for extreme short range assault or self defense less than 25 meters. Can be back up weapon for snipers when the targets come too close or for drivers, officers, or when you physically reach a Sanger or machine gun nest during assault engage multiple targets. Probably the easiest weapon to use by someone who uses it part time. But you can't really engagement someone with a AK at a range greater than 20 meters, and probably lacks stopping power. See what happened to our NSG engaging Jihadis at Pathankot, they Jihadis outgunned them.

we should be inducting JVPC for that role with the MINSAS round. bigger round with more penetration.
NSGs should have been using 5.56NATO caliber during that operation. Scope of using 9mm in modern day CT ops are very limited and there is no one shoe fits all solution.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Oct 2018 16:33

My bad if NSG was using 5.56, I agree one shoe does not fit all. But still those Jihadis held out out against both Garuds and NSG with 7,62*39, both of them had the 5.56- sure both lacked the combat op experience but somehow feel if we had UCAV or even sniper rifles with heat seaking camera scopes these Jihadis could have been taken out earlier.

Clearly those that attacked Pathankot were very well trained and might have come from SSG units also.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2018 23:06

I am sick and tired of our troops getting killed due to choices made by foolish battle scenarios.
The INSAS should never have made it past the design review.

India is not fighting the NATO wars.
Even NATO is not fighting NATO wars of Europe.
Having faced the Kashmir problem, the AK series should have been acquired or made in India.

Sachin, I soon expect the Paki terrorists to get BPJs of the type used by US police forces.
Not very expensive and can be bought in open markets.
This will make the 9 mm useless and again whines will start.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 17 Oct 2018 00:10

IMO we asking for a JV of production of AK-103 is comparable to buying f-16 in MMRCA. If we go to Russia for guns, we should be buying AK-15 or A-762 just off the shelf. Since Russia do not have plans to buy them in quantity before 2022, we can negotiate a good deal and maybe a JV or a Kalashnikov plant here in India.
for an estimated price of 1.5Lac per rifle(price is estimated generously but still I may be off the mark), we can have 1Lac rifle yearly for an additional cost of 1500Cr annually for 5 years. I do not think this is as huge a sum for us to spend as it is made out to be, considering it will be an 1 time thing.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Vips » 17 Oct 2018 05:31

souravB wrote: I do not think this is as huge a sum for us to spend as it is made out to be, considering it will be an 1 time thing.


Dont bet on it. In another 25 years we may have a bidding for next generation assault rifle with countries like Cameroon, Sri Lanka, Vanuatu and Yemen offering their rifles. Not so far fetched considering we are buying carbines from UAE!!!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 17 Oct 2018 07:32

We are not buying rifles from UAE. The rifles are designed by Germans, made by Americans.The owners of the company are Arabs and but that's about it. They do not value add anything. Which is the typical way of Arabs doing business.
But yes I do get your frustration of not being able to produce quality guns, but the reasons for that IMO are more social than technical.
If you notice all the countries that produce quality guns also have a pretty substantial civilian gun culture too. Arab countries do have a gun culture, so it is not a shock for me if some company there sell guns. Whereas our OFB gun designers are Sarkari Naukri Babus with an Engineering degree who have never fired a gun in Life or death situation and the sole ambition of life was to get a government job.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Oct 2018 17:26

The Sig and Caracal are basicly AR-15 designs. Except that they are piston driven rather than DI.
The Ak-103 is a kalashnikov long stroke design.
I refuse to accept that we cannot design a small arm to suit our needs.
But SouravB is right the designers of the INSAS betray their lack of practical experience quite similar to the SA80 where the firing pin was prone to break and mounts for the Susat voild break etc.
The difference is they stuck with it while we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Oct 2018 17:37

We are getting the Sig716 7.62x51 and Caracal 816 5.56x45 carbine.
In this day and age why do we need a 9mm. A Short barrel version of a 5.56 with a foldable stock should suffice.
We are not getti g the 9mm from caracal so where did that talk come from.

We keep talki g about the effe tiveness of the bullets...what about logistics?

Why this notion that an entine bn has to be equipped with 7.62x51 at loc. For range and volume why not just get a good belt fed LMG.

I fear we are getting taken in by statements about frontline troops at the LOC without really understandig how engagements happen.

Regards

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Oct 2018 17:44

ramana wrote:I am sick and tired of our troops getting killed due to choices made by foolish battle scenarios.
The INSAS should never have made it past the design review.

India is not fighting the NATO wars.
Even NATO is not fighting NATO wars of Europe.
Having faced the Kashmir problem, the AK series should have been acquired or made in India.

Sachin, I soon expect the Paki terrorists to get BPJs of the type used by US police forces.
Not very expensive and can be bought in open markets.
This will make the 9 mm useless and again whines will start.

What foolish battle scenarios Ramana? The need for a lighter weapon was because of Lanka exp.
Who is saying we are getting 9mms.

The INSAS design itself is not inherently bad.Yes it has some flaws but it was the prod quality that let it down. Remember the weapon passed IAs testing.

Have a look at the SA80 video I posted. It will show you how the Brits are still improving their SA80.

Look at the Insas 1C. See how the foregrip design has changed and also the picatinny rails. The milled receiver would also contribut to enhanced reliability. No rather that evolve it furthef we decide to go with the Caracal.

Good design is iterative.

You know the Caracal was designed by the guys who designed the HK416. The HK416 has an over gassing problem.. But surprise surprise the French are replacing the FAMAS withe the HK416!!!

This is purely a shopping trip where the actual beneficiary is going to be a dalal!!!!

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nam » 17 Oct 2018 18:15

Thakur_B wrote:
AKM and range is the biggest oxymoron out there. On border, its underrated INSAS lmg with 21 inch barrel and great accuracy, most readily available mid range weapon that is used to harass and take down paki troops.


Two different functions. Not every soldier is going to carry Insas lmg or any other mid range weapon.

Sig is suppose to be battle rifle, not comparable with Insas lmg.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Oct 2018 23:07

nam wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
AKM and range is the biggest oxymoron out there. On border, its underrated INSAS lmg with 21 inch barrel and great accuracy, most readily available mid range weapon that is used to harass and take down paki troops.


Two different functions. Not every soldier is going to carry Insas lmg or any other mid range weapon.

Sig is suppose to be battle rifle, not comparable with Insas lmg.


And Sig being a battle rifle does not give it the tactical flexibility that a good LMG gives even though it has more range. Unless it is used as a dmr with a scope etc. I think a bit has to be understood about what happens at the pickets.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nam » 18 Oct 2018 01:59

ks_sachin wrote:
And Sig being a battle rifle does not give it the tactical flexibility that a good LMG gives even though it has more range. Unless it is used as a dmr with a scope etc. I think a bit has to be understood about what happens at the pickets.


Soldiers don't always stay in the post. They patrol. They cannot patrol with all of them carrying lmg.

Even in the post, not all of them can have lmg. Every weapon has it's specific role.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 18 Oct 2018 04:04

While IA is hell bent on getting AKs to be the mainstay gun. Maybe they could look into this thing for a shot of modernization.


or another way would be to get the AK103 license, Pay Jim Fuller(the guy below) boatload of money to design a modern model from the base, let him work as a consultant to OFB and get a working rifle.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Gyan » 19 Oct 2018 01:03

MCIWS is basically a modernised HK 416.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 21 Oct 2018 21:35

Gyan wrote:MCIWS is basically a modernised HK 416.


No. MCIWS and HK 416 are worlds apart. MCIWS is closer to AR-18 derivatives. HK416 is piston driven AR-15.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 21 Oct 2018 22:57

The recently released CZ Bren 2 BR (Battle Rifle) chambered in 7.62x51

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Oct 2018 06:33

Deep upgrade kits for AKM from Bangalore based company Stumpp, Scheule and Somappa for Para SF. Handguard, dust cover, flash hider and buttstock replaced. Fixed sights replaced with pop up sights as well.

Image
Image
Image
Image

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 22 Oct 2018 10:20

abhik wrote:The recently released CZ Bren 2 BR (Battle Rifle) chambered in 7.62x51


Needs a little better recoil management system

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 22 Oct 2018 11:29

Manish_P wrote:
abhik wrote:The recently released CZ Bren 2 BR (Battle Rifle) chambered in 7.62x51


Needs a little better recoil management system


Image

I am not wrong I believe the Charging handle design on the CZ has some issues. Operating the Charging handle become an issue if Optics are positioned above the CH. A lower cranked version is now available for us Civ markets for a price.

Overall IMO a poor mans SCAR-H. Will retail for ~USD2000 vs ~USD3500 odd for a SCAR-H

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 23 Oct 2018 02:07

Thakur_B wrote:Deep upgrade kits for AKM from Bangalore based company Stumpp, Scheule and Somappa for Para SF. Handguard, dust cover, flash hider and buttstock replaced. Fixed sights replaced with pop up sights as well.

This is great. AKs with better sights gets a little more range and accuracy.
Now if they get milled lower receivers it would be perfect. Also wish for this upgrade to reach all soldiers who use AKs.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 23 Oct 2018 02:10

rkhanna wrote:
Manish_P wrote:
Needs a little better recoil management system


I am not wrong I believe the Charging handle design on the CZ has some issues. Operating the Charging handle become an issue if Optics are positioned above the CH. A lower cranked version is now available for us Civ markets for a price.

Overall IMO a poor mans SCAR-H. Will retail for ~USD2000 vs ~USD3500 odd for a SCAR-H

CZ 807 has reliability issues as found out by Pak Army during their new Infantry rifle trials. Interestingly they chose SCAR-H. :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 23 Oct 2018 08:22

They might have chosen it but have the bought it? In what numbers?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 23 Oct 2018 20:18

Manish_P wrote:They might have chosen it but have the bought it? In what numbers?

None. They do not have money. Bought some AK-103s.
Below is link to a detailed account of Rifle testing from a representative who took part in the process.
First Person narrative of Paki GSQR tests

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Manish_P » 24 Oct 2018 11:05

^ Thanks for that article. I thought i had read it earlier on some forum, not sure if it was BRF or other

These points are gold

During winter trials none of the rifles was able to consistently penetrate the plate.


Extreme Climate Test All the test weapons performed without issue except for the US weapons, all of which had the bolt catch fall out of the weapon during testing and one of which launched the muzzle break down range


Cold Test All the test weapons performed without issue except for the US weapons which would not chamber a round and did not fire a single shot.


Mud Immersion Test MKE and CZ rifles along with Serbian and Chinese AK’s were able to get one or two rounds fired before jamming. The US weapon wouldn’t even chamber a round. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue.


Sand Test The US weapon wouldn’t fire. The CZ and MKE rifle along with the Serbian and Chinese AKs were able to get one or two round fired before jamming. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue.


Mud Test Only the Chinese and Russian AK’s fired. The Chinese AK had a single jam and once cleared continued to run. The Russian Kalashnikov AK ran without issue.


Conclusion: No rifle passed all the tests without issues. The AR10-type weapon is inherently accurate especially when compared to other service rifles, but the design leaves it very susceptible to dirt and debris. Adding a piston system to the AR15/10/M4/M16 does not improve the reliability of the system in harsh environments due to design limitations.

If you operate in harsh conditions where maintenance and cleaning may not be available, and if you absolutely must have a rifle that fires every time you pull the trigger, then the Russian Kalashnikov AK is the answer. Otherwise, keep your weapon clean and don’t let it get dirty.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 24 Oct 2018 11:49

^^^ interesting but no comment on the West European Companies? HK / FN? or does the "AR-10" comment cover all of them?

from the comments section of same article - interesting points

"Very interesting read and good information. Only a few things I feel like should be mentioned. Some of the tests resulted in AKs only firing 1 or 2 rounds before shutting down where the AR10 (allegedly not a very reliable version of the AR platform) did not fire. Now before I start, I like The AK platform in all calibers and highly respect it. The sand test while great is not realistic even remotely for bad conditions, I’m not sure about the mud test, but there are numerous mud tests on YouTube where ARs are subjected to unrealistic amounts of mud and extra abuse and they fire fine, while AKs have some mixed results. All in addition to how the military has tested the platform. This doesn’t take into account how any trained operator that has a significant exposure to mud or sand, will instantly begin checking and clearing the weapon as best they can to mitigate any problems. So the question to ask is would you rather sacrifice the ballistic performance and accuracy of the weapon that won those areas knowing that most of the time it will not even remotely come close or almost never come close to the harsh conditions of the tests, as well as knowing you can take preventative and responsive measures to avoid the problems observed?"


"Evst. Palaiologos says:
July 16, 2018 at 12:23
I’ve heard lots of things about this competition, by a person who was there.
I don’t know how much is true but from the few I remember, CZ and MKEK received, lets say, premium treatment…. The reason, he told me, was that CZ war represented by the former Army Chief or something and MKEK, well MKEK was Turkish (Turkish = Muslim)
He told me that these two companies repetetly failed at test but kept going despite other companies complaining."


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