China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

chola · Post by **chola** » 04 Nov 2018 09:08

^^^ The CASIC FK-119 Nuclear Delivery Capable Stealth Drone. A rare find indeed!

Some more mundane drones from the current air show:

WJ-700

Cloud Shadow

Sky Hawk (rumored to be carrier-borne UAV)

Wing Loong II (with insignia so PLAAF in service UAV)

Kengsley · Post by **Kengsley** » 04 Nov 2018 13:31

Making its first appearance at a Zhuhai Airshow is the CM 401 ground and ship launched Anti Ship ballistic missile (ASBM).

"The CM-401 missile is a new type of hypersonic anti-ship missile, using near space trajectory, and capable of high supersonic maneuverable flight and terminal maneuvering. Launched from various platforms, the system is designed mainly to rapidly and exactly attack medium-large sized targets, ship formations and port targets. It has the characteristics of multi-ballisitc trajectory, coordinated capability, high damage capability and air defence penetration."

It's mid course maneuvering and TVC remind me of the CM400AKG air launched BM from the previous Airshow and the ground launched sy 400 in service with the PLA. Would be interesting if the Chinese Navy had a non export, non MTCR regulated version of this on their destroyers.

Kengsley · Post by **Kengsley** » 04 Nov 2018 14:04

chola wrote:Wing Loong II (with insignia so PLAAF in service UAV)

Henri Khenmahn reported on satellite images of at least 8 Wing Loong IIs deployed in xinjiang province in October. This image in particular, so I guess its safe to say that it is officially in service with the PLAAF, which also operated Wing Loong I UCAVs:

Plus the Wing Loong IIs at Airshow China were transported to the site and set up by PLAAF personnel:

https://twitter.com/HenriKenhmann/statu ... 9329746944

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Nov 2018 08:33

Manish_P wrote:What is this

At the 2018 Chinese air show

what on earth is this abomination??!

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 05 Nov 2018 08:43

Looks like history lesson time at PLAAF. While testing, they might have found it to be too stealthy for their radars. But then they have not yet figured out that those little pills under F22 are Luneberg lens and it is cool to have them. No other explanation for those three mijjiles on that airframe

AGI, are you the new DavidD? if so, welcome

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Nov 2018 09:15

Kartik wrote:
Manish_P wrote:What is this

At the 2018 Chinese air show

what on earth is this abomination??!

The CASIC FK-119 Nuclear Delivery Capable Stealth Drone.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 05 Nov 2018 09:22

Why is sitting in what seems to be a parking lot?

Kengsley · Post by **Kengsley** » 05 Nov 2018 11:25

hnair wrote:Looks like history lesson time at PLAAF. While testing, they might have found it to be too stealthy for their radars. But then they have not yet figured out that those little pills under F22 are Luneberg lens and it is cool to have them. No other explanation for those three mijjiles on that airframe

AGI, are you the new DavidD? if so, welcome

The welcome is appreciated mate, but who or what is a DavidD?

Kengsley · Post by **Kengsley** » 05 Nov 2018 11:26

Kartik wrote:
Manish_P wrote:What is this

At the 2018 Chinese air show

what on earth is this abomination??!

Chinese exhibitors never place PLA roundels on any military hardware not being developed with PLA backing or not in PLA service. Even more ridiculous is that it has PLA Navy insignia as well.

I don't think that's even part of the Air-Show. Looks like a display outside a mall or something.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Nov 2018 11:31

the CM401 seems like the chinese analogue of the Kinzhal missile on Mig31.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 05 Nov 2018 11:36

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 6047552512
CH-7.

Performances of CH-7 in many areas are much better than the US-made RQ-170, and pretty close to the RQ-180. This release has made China the 2nd country to own a high-altitude long-endurance combat UAV with advanced penetration capability: chief engineer & designer of the CH UAVs

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 05 Nov 2018 11:59

brar_w wrote:Why is sitting in what seems to be a parking lot?

so that no body defaults on their parking fees.

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Nov 2018 12:21

AGI wrote:
Kartik wrote: what on earth is this abomination??!
Chinese exhibitors never place PLA roundels on any military hardware not being developed with PLA backing or not in PLA service. Even more ridiculous is that it has PLA Navy insignia as well.

I don't think that's even part of the Air-Show. Looks like a display outside a mall or something.

So you are saying this thing is already in service with PLAN.

Kengsley · Post by **Kengsley** » 05 Nov 2018 12:25

duplicate post

Kengsley · Post by **Kengsley** » 05 Nov 2018 12:29

AGI wrote:
Singha wrote:the CM401 seems like the chinese analogue of the Kinzhal missile on Mig31.
Not really...

There have been no indications thus far that the CM 401 can be air launched ala the Kinzhal. The only air launched BM ever displayed at Airshow China was the CM400AKG build by the same manufacturer. It is the air to surface missile Pakistani's were calling a "carrier killer" despite the manufacturer clearly stating that it is mainly designed to strike fixed targets:

CM400AKG is an air launched version of the SY400 in PLA service and recently sold to the Qatari's. They have the same MTCR regulated 280km range and 200kg warhead:

CM401 seems more like a surface to surface anti-ship ballistic missile capable of launching from TEl's on land and from surface combatants. By the looks of it, it seems to be based on the DF12 (PLA designation)/ CSS-X-15 (NATO designation)/M20 (export designation) tactical ballistic missile.

The range of the DF12's export variant, the M20 is 280km but its warhead is significantly larger than the SY 400/CM400AKG's, at 480kg. Its DF designation in the PLA denotes that it is operated by the 2nd Artillery Corps, which means it can be armed with tactical nuclear warheads. The M20 was also included in the Qatari SY 400 contract

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 05 Nov 2018 13:10

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 7103639553

A short video on all their UAVs. Given lack of actual footage, looks like their RQ180 clone and tilt-rotor uav aren't yet in flying state.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 05 Nov 2018 16:52

There isn't even definitive confirmation that there is even a RQ-180 program, let alone any data on its performance. This drone concept looks like the X-47B and RQ-170 had a baby.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 05 Nov 2018 17:37

Singha wrote:the CM401 seems like the chinese analogue of the Kinzhal missile on Mig31.

ALBMs are a very old concept dating back to the cold war. There have been small, medium and even large sized ALBMs proposed, some even extensively tested so I don't really see a lot of commonality between what Russia, Israel and China seem to be doing in this space. These are simply solutions and ideas that have existed for decades, now being put into production, to develop relatively cheaply,fast medium-long range strike systems. The concept will move a couple of steps ahead when Russia, China, or the US tests the first Air Launched Boost Glide System with >50% non-ballistic maneuvering flight. The US plans on doing it with the B-52 next summer but the other two nations are likely also working on their systems.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 Nov 2018 18:08

duplicate deleted

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 Nov 2018 18:09

tsarkar wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ The CASIC FK-119 Nuclear Delivery Capable Stealth Drone. A rare find indeed!
With WW2 rockets underwing

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 05 Nov 2018 18:53

I'm guessing the parking lot F119 is one of those replicas made by farmers one reads about.

AGI wrote:The welcome is appreciated mate, but who or what is a DavidD?

He is alleged to be one of the 50-centers assigned to BRF.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Nov 2018 20:07

I actually find David’s posts pretty balanced. There are some others though.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Nov 2018 20:23

he is more a knowledgeable enthusiast than a propagandist.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Nov 2018 00:08

Prodyut Das's wet dream cum true. a MiG-21 design derivative being targeted for markets that cannot even afford the JF-17.

AVIC FTC-2000G makes public debut

The AVIC Guizhou FTC-2000G has made its public debut, appearing in the static line at Airshow China in Zhuhai.

The FTC-2000G appeared amid a range of air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons, such as the SD-10 semi-active air-to-air missile (the export variant of the PL-12), the CM-102 anti-radiation missile, and various guided and non-guided bombs.

Targeted at the international market, the FTC-2000G’s appearance comes just over one month after the its maiden flight. It is based on the FTC-2000 AJT, which itself made its show debut at Zhuhai in 2016.

At its stand in 2016, AVIC displayed a model the FTC-2000G. It offers seven hard points compared with five for the baseline FTC-2000. Its maximum take-off weight is also higher at 11,000kg, compared with 9,800kg for the FTC-2000.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 06 Nov 2018 00:34

lol just kidding

Though I must say there is definitely a lack of knowledge here - doesn't stop people from making pompous proclamations dissing chinese maal.

Only a couple weeks back I found out that the chinese had built a Boeing 707 analogue in the 70/80s, didn't workout eventually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Y-10

By Zhangmingda - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.p ... d=38458678

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Nov 2018 07:18

Seems to me different design shopa ib cheen whether via internal funds or govt seed funds are producing multiple designs and protos and competing in the same segments

Eventually the govt downselects one for mass use or may not order anything in that segment. The rest die or try to find munna for exports

Its like soviet union of old with a chinese twist

Or the american majors competing on projects

We need to keep an eye on the best in each bucket. The rest are concepts and protos

Some like the giant seaplane appear like a big waste to me. Their island garrisons are well connected by coast guard and militant fishing fleets

chola · Post by **chola** » 06 Nov 2018 09:43

Kartik wrote:Prodyut Das's wet dream cum true. a MiG-21 design derivative being targeted for markets that cannot even afford the JF-17.

AVIC FTC-2000G makes public debut

MiG-21 plus R-25 turbojet. They are matched by the Iranian F-5 clone with the Owj J-85 copy. In trying to leapfrog with the LCA and Kaveri turbofan, we skipped this step of a cheap turbojet fighter entirely. We’ve assembled hundreds of MiG-21s and R-25s but we’re going to be lapped by Iran in having a fully indigenous jet with both airframe and engine built domestically.

chola · Post by **chola** » 06 Nov 2018 09:55

abhik wrote:lol just kidding

Though I must say there is definitely a lack of knowledge here - doesn't stop people from making pompous proclamations dissing chinese maal.

Only a couple weeks back I found out that the chinese had built a Boeing 707 analogue in the 70/80s, didn't workout eventually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Y-10

By Zhangmingda - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.p ... d=38458678

I posted about the Y-10 earlier in this thread. It is an incredible story. And parable with a lesson.

This was a pretty successful program by any stretch of the imagination. A large plane that can carry 150 passengers and which made 130 flights was killed off when the chini civil aviation admistration refused to buy any because it was inferior to Western products (of course.)

The local product being killed off by the firang market happened to Cheen too. So think about it. It took them forty years to reach that point again with the C919.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 06 Nov 2018 10:42

^^^ the wording is interesting "Aviation Cause" - The Politburo saw Airplane and Ship building as a critical piece of National Security and National Interest. Not a simple ROI.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Nov 2018 11:52

The first han ssn a TD came into water around 1970 another good achievement

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Nov 2018 12:05

So far the best video showing J-10B TVC performed Cobra maneuver, J-turn, Falling leaf maneuver. Video by @ChinaAvReview

https://twitter.com/dafengcao/status/10 ... 1364423682

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Nov 2018 13:30

From twitter: LETRI Air cooled AESA, shown for JF17, fundamentally for export.

https://twitter.com/RickJoe_PLART/statu ... 9914651649

I am not convinced of Air cooled business. Might be usual marketing gimmick or this thing was not really tested for combat. If it is really going in to JF17, then Chinis don't seem to be interested in giving the best tech they have to their rent boy. "Air cooled" would be cheaper and probably lighter, than the current cooling methods.

If they are using GaN, then may be, it might have reduced cooling needs. If that is the case, then it is a achievement to get a X band GaN, jet radar.

Regular AESA with air cooling method, is a downgraded AESA.

Kengsley · Post by **Kengsley** » 06 Nov 2018 13:35

Austin wrote:So far the best video showing J-10B TVC performed Cobra maneuver, J-turn, Falling leaf maneuver. Video by @ChinaAvReview

https://twitter.com/dafengcao/status/10 ... 1364423682

Chengdu Aerospace Corporation would have definately have had to improve the existing FCS on the J10C to integrate a TVC engine. Pics and video from the WS10 TVC display at the manufacturer's pavilion:

Computer generated video of how the nozzle works and actual footage of the test rig:

https://twitter.com/OedoSoldier/status/ ... 0908170241

The J20 also demonstrating its no slouch. Many tight high G turns in this long display. Much less sedate than the 2016 demo:

https://mobile.twitter.com/OedoSoldier/ ... 1377346560

Nice High res pics from that display:

Maybe we'll get to see a demo from a TVC equipped J20 at Zhuhai 2020

Kengsley · Post by **Kengsley** » 06 Nov 2018 13:51

nam wrote:From twitter: LETRI Air cooled AESA, shown for JF17, fundamentally for export.

https://twitter.com/RickJoe_PLART/statu ... 9914651649

I am not convinced of Air cooled business. Might be usual marketing gimmick or this thing was not really tested for combat. If it is really going in to JF17, then Chinis don't seem to be interested in giving the best tech they have to their rent boy. "Air cooled" would be cheaper and probably lighter, than the current cooling methods.

If they are using GaN, then may be, it might have reduced cooling needs. If that is the case, then it is a achievement to get a X band GaN, jet radar.

Regular AESA with air cooling method, is a downgraded AESA.

It is a downgraded AESA but its still an AESA. The JF17 was always meant to be a low cost export fighter to apeal to countries replacing F5's or Mig 21's. What would be the point in a 10 million dollar radar on a 25 million dollar jet?

Low cost, less maintenance needs, higher reliability, a 100%+ increase in detection range for airborne, ground and sea targets versus the original mechanical scanning array, easy upgrade....

Plus it would offer a cheap upgrade option for the mechanical scanning array equipped J10As in the PLAAF and PLAN

There are superior, high performance airborne AESAs being offered for export at Air Show China, but if you were Bangladesh, or Myanmar or Nigeria - current or future JF17 customers - what would you be interested in?

Henri Kenhmann from East Pendulum is reporting on this liquid cooled AESA from the CETC featuring side facing cheek arrays...

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Nov 2018 14:24

AGI wrote:
Low cost, less maintenance needs, higher reliability, a 100%+ increase in detection range for airborne, ground and sea targets versus the original mechanical scanning array, easy upgrade....

The buying cost yes, however other may not necessary be the case. With a deficient cooling method, the TRM modules will have much lower reliability. Increased failure rates and need for replacement.

Detection range is also dependent on your cooling method. AESA have increased power requirements compared to mechanical scanning. Nor will it achieve superior detection sensitivity.

It might be cheaper to buy, however much more expensive to maintain & use. If cost is the prime factor, these countries might as well stick with their existing radar.

It may be mitigated to some extent if GaN, which are more power efficient are used. Doesn't look like it is the case.

I will be very surprised if PAF goes for this option.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 06 Nov 2018 14:32

GaN have higher cooling requirements. Not lower.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Nov 2018 14:33

what happened to the RC400-E radar for JF17 ?

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Nov 2018 15:08

Prasad wrote:GaN have higher cooling requirements. Not lower.

For the same power rating , GaN are more power efficient ( reduced heating), hence will need lower cooling.

If for the same power rating, if GaN thermal properties are bad compared to GaAS, then no one will move towards GaN.

In the world of Power electronics, there is only one king: Power. Everything is about power management.

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Nov 2018 15:10

Singha wrote:what happened to the RC400-E radar for JF17 ?

Getting a western radar would mean getting a western BVR. Not happening as Paks have no money.

Kengsley · Post by **Kengsley** » 06 Nov 2018 15:19

nam wrote:
AGI wrote:
Low cost, less maintenance needs, higher reliability, a 100%+ increase in detection range for airborne, ground and sea targets versus the original mechanical scanning array, easy upgrade....

The buying cost yes, however other may not necessary be the case. With a deficient cooling method, the TRM modules will have much lower reliability. Increased failure rates and need for replacement.

Detection range is also dependent on your cooling method. AESA have increased power requirements compared to mechanical scanning. Nor will it achieve superior detection sensitivity.

It might be cheaper to buy, however much more expensive to maintain & use. If cost is the prime factor, these countries might as well stick with their existing radar.

It may be mitigated to some extent if GaN, which are more power efficient are used. Doesn't look like it is the case.

I will be very surprised if PAF goes for this option.

It is indisputable that a liquid cooling system will always carry a higher maintenance cost and weight penalty than an air cooling system.

This radar's manufacturer, LETRI is competing with another Chinese manufacturer, NRIET (Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology) for the integration of an AESA on block 3 JF17's. NRIET's offer, the KLJ-7A has been tested extensively on an airborne test platform since last year.

The two J-7s serving as targets in the KLJ-7A radar test (Image; CCTV-2)

You can read Henri Kenhmann's article on the KLJ-7A here:

http://www.eastpendulum.com/klj-7a-1er- ... est-en-vol

I doubt LETRI would have brought their AESA offering to market without testing the reliability or life span of their T/R modules considering the number of domestic and international competitors they are facing. Low acquisition and maintenance cost is the only edge they have.

However, the PAF has previously demonstrated selectiveness when it comes to purchasing Chinese radars. They chose the Grifo MG over the chinese offering for their F7PG's and they chose Turkey's Aselsan targeting pod over the Chinese offering for their JF17's.

Even if the PAF does not select LITRI's air cooled AESA, they could offer it to Myanmar or Nigeria for their JF17's or even FTC-2000 and L15 customers like Sudan or Zambia.