Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 03 Dec 2018 13:04

The shell is neither irrelevant nor a trivial design as you are making it out to be. The shell largely determines strength and weight of the coach; modern materials (higher quality alloy steels in this case) together with a ton of CAD based design refinement ensure that every kg of metal is optimally used, not only for structural rigidity but also for crash worthiness. LHB may not exist as a company, but the shell design, along with the jigs, machinery and trained workers to assemble those very much form the backbone of Train 18.

Then as I said there is the bogie - the wheel/axle, bogie frame, springs, damping mechanism (dashpot/air suspension...), pins and braking rigs. It's highly likely that these share a lot of commonality with LHB bogies.

The couplers would also be the same, but more because couplers across the entirety of railways tend to be of one or two types for interoperability. Center buffer couplers would also be a safety feature.

Electricals for driving hotel load would be identical, except a transformer would be used to step down 25kv from pantograph (which technology also exists in IR, but sitting in the loco rather than coach).

The pantographs, 25kv distribution lines, underslung & overhead equipment including transformers, variable frequency drives and motors are themselves a big achievement, and putting it all together is truly fantastic.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Dec 2018 13:09

Not my point. My point is that the shell Is ICF's design and has nothing to it to deserve the name of a now defunct company to be used any longer.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 03 Dec 2018 13:34

180 KMPH cockpit view. Got to say, cockpit looks modern. BTW, overall train seemed stable. Next govt. must improve tracks and signalling in Shatabdi and Rajdhani routes to enable 200 KMPH.

rajkumar · Post by **rajkumar** » 03 Dec 2018 15:12

Also people are forgetting here what a major achievement Train 18 is because all LHB train coaches need a Generator car to be coupled on the train but Train 18 doesn't need a generator car. ICF coaches don't need generator cars since they are supplied electricity directly from the engine. I would really like to find out how the designers achieved this.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 03 Dec 2018 15:51

Very good point about the generator car. The old ICF coach train had 2-6 ac coaches whereas IIRC old full A/C. Rajdhani and shatabdis with ICF coaches also had a generator car since I guess the load was higher.

Dont the Old ICF coaches also have battery + dyanamos unlike LHB derived ones which warranted a generator car even for non AC coaches?

Yensoy Saar
Arent Chennai and Mumbai local train EMU from ICF and why do you say that ICF has DEMU experience and no EMU experience

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Dec 2018 16:04

Our regular engines with Talgo at 10kmph.

Talgo coaches seems to be smaller, lower to the ground. Train18 seems to be running around with much higher load and more coaches. Pretty sure the design is capable of 200k, if regular can 180 with Talgo.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 03 Dec 2018 19:02

The GM mentions there was consultancy done for the coach from european manufacturers but the production was done in India.

From various you tube videos you can see Sudanshu Mani is a very realistic, no-nonsense, kick ass performer and he has mentioned Jan/Feb 2020 as the deadline for delivery of the first Train 20 which he says will be truly world class.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2018 19:38

for train20 a corrected tender will come out soon for ToT to make aluminium shells. report said it will slip by a year to 2021.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 03 Dec 2018 20:21

rajkumar wrote:Also people are forgetting here what a major achievement Train 18 is because all LHB train coaches need a Generator car to be coupled on the train but Train 18 doesn't need a generator car. ICF coaches don't need generator cars since they are supplied electricity directly from the engine. I would really like to find out how the designers achieved this.

If you cared to read what was posted earlier

...

yensoy wrote:...Electricals for driving hotel load would be identical, except a transformer would be used to step down 25kv from pantograph (which technology also exists in IR, but sitting in the loco rather than coach).

The pantographs, 25kv distribution lines, underslung & overhead equipment including transformers, variable frequency drives and motors are themselves a big achievement, and putting it all together is truly fantastic.

Sridhar K wrote:Dont the Old ICF coaches also have battery + dyanamos unlike LHB derived ones which warranted a generator car even for non AC coaches?

Yes exactly, most ICF coaches are of the "self generating" types which means they got their electricity from a generator driven by the motion of the coach (via a somewhat inefficient drive belt system attached to the axle) that was used to charge a battery bank. But not all ICF coaches - the old Rajdhani & Shatabdi ones used a generator car.

Sridhar K wrote: Yensoy Saar
Arent Chennai and Mumbai local train EMU from ICF and why do you say that ICF has DEMU experience and no EMU experience

You are right, ICF has built EMUs including MEMUs; however the big successes/innovations of ICF have been on the DEMU front (Kashmir railway, Sri Lankan export order, etc). EMUs are being built out of multiple workshops - RCF, BHEL and ICF. ICF has also been installing Bombardier technology for the electricals.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2018 20:50

Is this rate per sq foot?

"

As per the report, the NRI octogenarian Savita Ben handed over her 11.94 hectare ancestral land in Gujarat at a price of Rs 30,234.3 to the NHRSCL that is implementing India’s first high-speed bullet train project."
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/developme ... in-project

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2018 20:52

Talgo coaches look narrower and less tall than our usual bg ?
Maybe they changed the wheel bogie for bg width but kept the shell as same

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 03 Dec 2018 21:22

Vips wrote:
From various you tube videos you can see Sudanshu Mani is a very realistic, no-nonsense, kick ass performer and he has mentioned Jan/Feb 2020 as the deadline for delivery of the first Train 20 which he says will be truly world class.

Unfortunately he is retiring per Twitter feed

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 03 Dec 2018 21:27

I hope he gets an extension or they will make him member of the railway advisory/board. It will be a pity to lose someone who has a successful track record.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 03 Dec 2018 21:56

rajkumar wrote: ICF coaches don't need generator cars since they are supplied electricity directly from the engine.

This is not true. ICF coaches (I assume you mean the older design coaches) have batteries that are charged by dynamos. They don't use (or need) hotel load from the locomotive at all. But these batteries + dynamoc equipment added to their weight, which the LHB coaches don't have.

Sridhar K wrote:Rajdhani and shatabdis with ICF coaches also had a generator car since I guess the load was higher.

This also wasn't about the load - ICF rajdhani coaches didn't have the battery + dynamo equipment and so required the generator coaches to supply power, just like the LHB coaches. Since they didn't have to cart this extra weight around, they were cleared to run at 130kmph as opposed to 110kmph for regular ICF coaches.

Sridhar K wrote:Dont the Old ICF coaches also have battery + dyanamos unlike LHB derived ones which warranted a generator car even for non AC coaches?

Exactly.

Sridhar K wrote:Yensoy Saar
Arent Chennai and Mumbai local train EMU from ICF and why do you say that ICF has DEMU experience and no EMU experience

Again, exactly. It's ICF that has the most extensive experience with EMUs on IR. All the BG local trains we see in Chennai, Mumbai (including the older DC rakes), Kolkata, Hyderabad, etc. are ICF products*. So are all the MRVC rakes in Mumbai - tech transfers via initial imports and the rest manufactured by ICF. MRVC used Siemens and Bombardier rakes in different phases, so ICF perhaps got familiar with both platforms when manufacturing them. That, and the experience in building regular passenger coaches over the decades was put to good use in case of T-18. IRFCA has a good summary about EMUs on IR (link).

*Jessop in Calcutta used to manufacture EMUs, but seems to have fallen off in the recent decades.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2018 22:05

failure of these dynamos and batteries sometimes led to power outages in ICF coaches. but mostly very reliable , albeit old fashioned.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 03 Dec 2018 22:15

For those who are interested in rail history, ICF has a small museum in Chennai, worth a visit.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Dec 2018 22:30

Karthik S wrote:
180 KMPH cockpit view. Got to say, cockpit looks modern. BTW, overall train seemed stable. Next govt. must improve tracks and signalling in Shatabdi and Rajdhani routes to enable 200 KMPH.

Great video. First time I'm seeing a cockpit video on IR where it actually looks like it's going quite fast. Nice digital display on the left (showing speed as 179 initially, dropping to 177) in addition to the analog speed dial on the right.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2018 22:31

IR has a rambling and badly upkept national rail museum in chanyakyapuri delhi near the new zealand and bhutan consulate.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2018 22:33

external view @ 180. other than dust, it looks like those fast italian trains I posted

they are blowing horn nearly continuously and hoping for best.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Dec 2018 22:36

Looks like it can do another 20-30km/h , from exterior and interior views. Very stable, no pantograph oscillation and sparking, primarily a question of track and signaling .

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2018 22:55

the nosecone back on will also further stabilize the airflow around the nose and reduce noise.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2018 23:34

teen wolf surfs russian HSR which is doing 200+ moscow to st.petersburg
must be a mix of drugs and his girlfriend calling him up
its a siemens train

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 04 Dec 2018 04:28

Yes, Sapsan is a Siemens Velaro . Karthik S has been going Allah ke naam pe Velaro de de baba on this thread for MAA-BLR route for as long as I can remember

If the Germans are offered MAA-BLR-MYS, that might run on our tracks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2018 07:13

Ugly looking piece of work vs the soothing N700 or even the tgv that run in france italy spain

Looks like a giant sand worm from frank herberts Dune book

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 04 Dec 2018 11:33

Never quite liked the N700 look myself, having seen it up close on multiple trips on Tokyo-Osaka. Superbly well run and butter smooth ride yes, but a face only a mother would love, especially the frontal view where it looks puff-cheeked. It looks better from a side on view. The E5/E6 Shinkansens were are getting for Mumbai-Ahmedabad look better. My favorite are the since discontinued 500 Series, that never found much use because they were too expensive. They were meant to replace the 300 series but due to cost, the 700 series was developed, and since then updated to the current N700 and future N700S variants.

Still, the award for ugliest looking HSR to me is the AVE Class 102 that the locals call duckface. Spanish HSR operates this, the TGV and Velaro trainsets. Best place to go for rail fans wanting to experience all three major European trainsets in one country - get a RENFE rail pass, travel between Barcelona, Madrid, Seville you'll quite likely get to travel all three like I got to. Very cheap to upgrade to first class as well - $25 per person in our case for the premium Barcelona-Mardid-Seville route.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2018 13:33

Ew the 500 series is sibling of the velaro giant worm template and the E5/E6 looks a cousin of the N700 platypus.
but the laws of physics and air drag bow to no state or ruler and are equal to all rich or poor....one has to bow to nature.

as speeds have increased the move to the bulbous flattened nose has come ... the older ones were sharp and graceful and even the original 1960s model (not in pic) is a strong and high looker like old wine

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2018 18:26

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-spee ... technology

cheen seems to have paid off and then cloned from every imaginable OEM of HSR in the world ... from canada through EU to japan, none are left out.
they spent close to 10b USD annually for 10 years between 2000-2010 on the hsr line construction , new factories, stations and trains.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 04 Dec 2018 18:56

Singha wrote:as speeds have increased the move to the bulbous flattened nose has come ... the older ones were sharp and graceful and even the original 1960s model (not in pic) is a strong and high looker like old wine

It has to do with tunnel exit noise. The duck shaped nose helps in reducing the thunder sound when Shinkansen exits a tunnel. A flattened nose train exiting a tunnel at 300 kmph sounds like a big explosion.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 04 Dec 2018 18:56

The E5/E6 designs were - as far as I can recall - not the result of conventional aerodynamic concerns . They’re all quite aerodynamic in that regard . The reason for the design is minimizing tunnel booms:
Interesting story
Yup, Japanese law requires tunnel exit noises to be restricted to 70dB.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 04 Dec 2018 19:01

Singha wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-spee ... technology

cheen seems to have paid off and then cloned from every imaginable OEM of HSR in the world ... from canada through EU to japan, none are left out.
they spent close to 10b USD annually for 10 years between 2000-2010 on the hsr line construction , new factories, stations and trains.

Lucky for them they didn't have to spend much on land acquisition

That hard work was completed in the decade after the people's revolution.

$100 billion is peanuts for an HSR system (even if only track and structures) of the extent that China has.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 04 Dec 2018 19:02

Suraj wrote:The E5/E6 designs were - as far as I can recall - not the result of conventional aerodynamic concerns . They’re all quite aerodynamic in that regard . The reason for the design is minimizing tunnel booms:
Interesting story
Yup, Japanese law requires tunnel exit noises to be restricted to 70dB.

I recall South Koreans addressing this issue by angling tunnel exits.

Instead of this:

SoKo looks like this (Couldn't find a side shot pic but this seems ok):

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 04 Dec 2018 19:07

Even better video.

Some lag (expectedly) for train to go 180 from 170. But with nose cone on (and further modifications), it should accelerate even better.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2018 19:46

interesting note in the cheen hsr wiki:

Impact on airlines
The spread of high-speed rail has forced domestic airlines in China to slash airfare and cancel regional flights.[161] The impact of high-speed rail on air travel is most acute for intercity trips under 500 km (310 mi).[161] By the spring of 2011, commercial airline service had been completely halted on previously popular routes such as Wuhan-Nanjing, Wuhan-Nanchang, Xi’an-Zhengzhou and Chengdu-Chongqing.[161] Flights on routes over 1,500 km (930 mi) are generally unaffected.[161] As of October 2013, high-speed rail was carrying twice as many passengers each month as the country’s airlines

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 04 Dec 2018 23:58

Smart of Mr Sudhanshu Mani and IR to give the public so much daily insight into Train 18 testing. They're aware there's a massive group of geeks keenly following it and lapping it all up in excitement, and they're getting plenty of useful feedback in the process. One suggestion offered on Twitter was installing side skirts underneath the coaches to better streamline them. And of course theres the nose cone, but that's probably better kept off for now - clearly the trainset is being hauled and shunted after every test ride and taking the cone on and off all the time is just going to bruise and dent it.

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 05 Dec 2018 03:05

Karthik S wrote:Even better video.
Some lag (expectedly) for train to go 180 from 170. But with nose cone on (and further modifications), it should accelerate even better.

I think IR should really cut down on the noise pollution due to the horn. It is painful to watch the video unmuted. Are these rules of continuous honking left over practices from the British era? Especially the long duration ones are annoying to say the least.

The loco pilots will probably end up having long term damage to their hearing.

Some noob questions ...
1. Why don't they have a forward looking camera and monitor in the dashboard of cockpit?
2. A lot seems to be made about signalling. In this day and age of Wireless/ RFID technology, can't the signal also be beamed directly to the cabin?
3. In this day of wireless communication, why not employ voice communication from nearest stations, gates etc. like air traffic control to communicate cautionary and other messages in addition to the signalling system.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 Dec 2018 03:36

There are established signaling standards that address requirements for HSR - the Japanese have their own standard, and multiple ETCS tiers (and the Chinese copycat CTCS tiers) address various tiers of technological gear and speeds of the trains. No need to reinvent the wheel here, just establish our own standards in line with existing ones.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 05 Dec 2018 05:54

In addition to the 500 series, E7/W7 series Kagayaki is not half-bad looking. In fact quite gorgeous.

But the designed top-speed is only 275 kmph and operational top speed 260 kmph (because of the terrain).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2018 07:21

The horn is being blown for safety due to unfenced tracks and to warn off gawkers. In mass service the vulnerable sections will be fenced etc . Speed is same as gatimaan express so just go by how it uses horn - probably for level crossings , villages and platforms

160kmph does not really need hst signaling std

We can get better throughput of trains overall with such signaling but its a major task not like building a new train as it affects the whole system. Has to be funded from the top and will take 5 years minimum

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2018 07:28

Like tejas they cannot afford deaths during testing else sickular twitterati will say its arrogant yindu fanatic rich class running roughshod over gareeb people

Gatimaan express no much horn here delhi agra jhansi

It covers 400 km in 4.5 hours incl stops so the max 160 speed would be few stretches only
Avg speed 112kmph
https://youtu.be/gifISyOXNxM

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 Dec 2018 08:12

Signaling standards are not a one tier solution . There are levels of them, with established compatibility between higher and lower tiers . Please look over the ETCS and CTCS links earlier - they describe tiers that add additional capabilities. Such an ‘ITCS’ standard means we can apply some or all of the technologies to support various speed and throughout tiers on main lines at various places as a form of rolling update process.