Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Dec 2018 09:58

https://twitter.com/AncientSubHunt/stat ... 6332294144 ---> Some more shots I came across recently...Inside INS Vikramaditya some prior to her handover to India.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Dec 2018 12:43

NAS Shibpur at Diglipur in the Andamans would be shortly commissioned as INS Kohassa in January 2019

This is the third full fledged base after INS Baaz at Campbell Bay on Great Nicobar Island overlooking the Straits of Malacca and INS Utkrosh at Port Blair.

Kohassa is the Grey Backed Sea Eagle Haliaeetus Leucogaster

Those 57+45 fighters and 22 Guardians would be put to good use beyond aircraft carriers.

Dear Maz - give me some time, suddenly got caught up in a lot of things.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Dec 2018 03:51

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... 2011038722 ----> The Submarine Arm today stands at the cusp of history, yearning to take the proverbial leap towards greater glories and momentous milestones that will enshrine terror in the heart of its adversaries. Happy Submariner's Day!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 12 Dec 2018 14:34

When are the Rajput class due to be decommissioned?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Dec 2018 21:55

first DSRV is commisioned into IN today

per this video looks like rescued people can directly drop into a hyperbaric chamber once the dsrv is lifted onto the mother ship which appears like one of our ONGC support vessels modified to this role.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1072043307025485824

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Dec 2018 22:00

doing some analysis, the SCI ship Sabarmati a offshore oil support ship has been modified to this dsrv mother ship role and looks like another unit will be on east coast

the containers house the surface control center and perhaps pumps and stuff. the crane and hyperbaric chambers and containers seem like a solution which can be fitted on stern of any suitable vessel.

SCI has other similar ships. the other one will be based in Vizag soon.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Dec 2018 05:40

ks_sachin wrote:When are the Rajput class due to be decommissioned?

The Rajput Class are still going strong, surprisingly with various upgrades - radar, weaponry (BrahMos) and propulsion (Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine). The oldest vessel (the Rajput) is 38 years and the last in the class (the Ranvijay) is 31 years. Usually IN capital vessels are around for 30+ years max. The only exception were the aircraft carriers - the Vikrant and Viraat.

I am not sure if this ever occurred though on the Rajput Class....

Modified Kaveri Engine to Propel Indian Navy Ships
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=40470

John · Post by **John** » 13 Dec 2018 06:09

That brings back memories I am surprised that news of Kaveri was almost a decade ago looks like nothing really seemed to come out of that.

wig · Post by **wig** » 13 Dec 2018 10:04

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 97594.html
a brief on the commissioning of the DSRV in Mumbai

The trials of the DSRV were successfully completed on October 15. “The DSRV (induction) is a landmark event and it marks the culmination of years of focused efforts of the Navy in acquiring niche submarine rescue capability. With these capabilities, the Indian Navy has joined the select league of navies that operate such assets,” Admiral Lanba said.
The second vehicle has already left for delivery to India and will be based at the naval base in Visakhapatnam, he said. The endeavour is to provide rescue services in the Indian Ocean region and beyond, he said, adding that the Navy can extend services to friendly nations.

and

More than 80 naval personnel have undergone training on DSRV operations and its exercises will continue in future as well, a Naval official said. The vehicle can rescue 14 people in one dive, the official said.

The Navy has also given a Rs 9,000 crore contract to the Hindustan Shipyard Limited for building two mother ships for DSRVs and deliver them by 2020, the official said.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Dec 2018 00:26

screengrab from the IN 2018 video as posted by saurabh jha - a proposal with 4-8 large caliber VLS ... comparing size of sail to that of scorpene its a large concept - 2500-3000t for sure if not more.

John · Post by **John** » 16 Dec 2018 10:22

Singha wrote:nice pic from LiveFist on twitter
unmarked pics for wallpaper psyops here https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1070665809951944704

In the series of images posted by livefist not sure how many people caught the Barak 8 uses cylindrical launchers unlike Barak-1. This confirms the mock ups displayed in various expos by IAI.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/107 ... 29600?s=21

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 17 Dec 2018 19:32

According to General Manager of Yantar shipyard, the first 11356 should be transferred to India in 3 years from the moment the propulsion system is provided to the shipyard. Second ship will follow half a year later.

Anybody has got an idea at what stage is the contract with Ukraine?

John · Post by **John** » 18 Dec 2018 02:27

Sputnik says the deal was signed last year but I have not found any other source to confirm it.

https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017081810 ... -frigates/

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 18 Dec 2018 02:47

John, the report is accurate. DAC cleared the deal in August last year. No mention of their delivery time though.

The DAC also cleared a proposal to buy two sets of gas turbines from Ukraine for two Grigorovich class ships being built in Russia for India. The go ahead was given at a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) chaired by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley, PTI said.

The gas turbines will be bought by India from Ukraine due to the ongoing tension between the two nations – Russia and Ukraine. Their cost is Rs 490 crore.

https://www.firstpost.com/india/defence ... 41995.html

Edit : Rakesh, yes fixed it.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Dec 2018 02:53

Snehasis, I think you meant to address your post to SNaik or John.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Dec 2018 07:20

While the induction of the DSRVs and sub-tenders/ support vessels is very laudable, domestic conv. sub production needs a huge boost.While Scorpenes are entering service, they're late both in delivery and tech.None of our 6 will have AIP while all PN subs will possess them, putting them at an element of disadvantage vs. PN Agostas and future Yuan AIP subs.

If our 4 U-boats are being upgraded, it should be examined whether they could be retro-fitted with a German fuel- cell AIP system, at least on two boats since the same system is used across sev.U- boat designs.If successful, we should build for " Line-1",replacing the Svorpenes at MDL, future German AIP boats with desi input ( missiles) much in the manner in which Israel has obtained its own U- boats that also carry its strat. deterrent.The two sizes of tubes makes this possible.It will enable some of the IN's conv.subs to also carry strat. missiles if need be.This would be a bonus boost to the IN's second strike capability , possessing both conv./ AIP boats and SSBNs, hugely complicating the task of the PN and PLAN in detecting and shadowing our second strike capability.

"Line-2" should be an Ru AIP conv. boat, giving us both the best of the west and east. Whether the IN will/has found the Amur class acceptable remains to be seen.Resumed production of these boats has begun, along with extra Kilos too for its Far East fleet. Russia seems to be mass producing both Amur/ Ladas (now), and Kilos especially like sausages ,at speed and low cost both for itself and for export.It was stated somewhere that it takes only 3 years to deliver a Kilo.It is remarkable how this venerable design is now entering its 4th. decade in its latest avatar...armed with the deadly 2500km range Kalibir missiles! These formidable tested missiles are also to bd carried by Russia's latest SSGNs.Now that we are members of the MTCR, there is no need to restrict our own Kilos from carrying the full versions of the Klub/ Kalibir missiles.

"Line-3" should be a class of mini-subs meant for operating in the chokepoints/ A& N theatre and also based out of our forward naval bases north of Bombay.
This is a class that csn essily be tasked for a pvt. yard is need be to add to the yards capable of sub construction.
These are proposed for the conv. sub domain.The plans for both SSNs and SSBNs must proceed as planned .

For the record, Iran is to build its own version of Kilo subs aftrr mastering its mini-sub production.Prolonged sanctions has made it more self-reliant.

John · Post by **John** » 18 Dec 2018 08:37

Russia seems to be mass producing both Amur/ Ladas (now)

They have yet to complete 2nd vessel in the class which has been stuck in production for 14 years not exactly mass production. Lada for all purposes is all but dead they are likely gonna scrap or let it linger in production limbo and move to next class. You are better off building u-209s than Kilos.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2018 08:59

3 lines of SSK is not going to be affordable or build any economy of scale.

whatever it is , we need to select one design and build 24 across 2 lines - like ddg51 ships are built in two shipyards to same design.

a stretched scorpene (with AIP and 4 UVLS for 12 nirbhay) would seem to be most modern option. Soryu would be too costly even if on table. the french can be relied on to keep spending on defence and feed DCN,Snecma,Dassault as needed. with germany you never know what their politicians will do.

Kilos and U209 the youngest are some 18 years old and oldest(u209) are 33+ years!! despite upgrades they will be reaching EOL in next decade.

u209 is too small a template to build a attack SSK on. AIP and UVLS are a must to add some teeth. kilo is a small sub posing as a large one due to double hull.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Dec 2018 11:39

Video footage of the#Russia#Indian exercises, Indra #Navy-2018.

https://twitter.com/Capt_Navy/status/10 ... 1144627201

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2018 11:48

Wrt to PN having aip , we dont need aip vs PN because their lrmp birds will not come out far off the coast as our carriers will lie in wait. So any IN sub can strike inshore and come out on battery power

They might want AIP as our lrmp will be swarming all suspected areas backed by fighters or trying a ghazi attack on vizag

We already know aip ssk us not much feasible for south and east china seas due to long transit via sunda strait and shallow 75m depth - need long loiter time of a ssn to be really effective

Thays why IN is not worried about aip and waiting until drdo tech matures than rushing to buy any aip system

chola · Post by **chola** » 18 Dec 2018 12:51

From the INDRA exercises with Russkies.

INS Satpura is at the bottom. INS Ranvir should be the third from the bottom. INS Jyoti is the tanker between them. The Shivalik frigate being 2000 tons bigger than the Rajput class destroyer.

Classification is practically meaningless these days. lol

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Dec 2018 14:11

The Shivalik is a Frigate, and the Rajput is a destroyer.
LOL
The Frigate outdoes the destroyer in all aspects !

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 18 Dec 2018 15:12

chola wrote:From the INDRA exercises with Russkies.

INS Satpura is at the bottom. INS Ranvir should be the third from the bottom. INS Jyoti is the tanker between them. The Shivalik frigate being 2000 tons bigger than the Rajput class destroyer.

Classification is practically meaningless these days. lol

INS Jyoti appears to be the second one from top. Second from bottom could be a RuN fleet tanker.

Also, the orange deck-paint of all RuN ships looks very odd.

chola · Post by **chola** » 18 Dec 2018 15:17

To be fair the Shivalik at 6200 tons is as big or bigger than some of the destroyers serving in quite a few advanced countries — Italy, SoKo, Japan, France.

Everyone is naming these big ships “frigates” these days. Look at the new frigate classes from Italy, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, etc.

chola · Post by **chola** » 18 Dec 2018 15:19

JTull wrote:
chola wrote:From the INDRA exercises with Russkies.

INS Satpura is at the bottom. INS Ranvir should be the third from the bottom. INS Jyoti is the tanker between them. The Shivalik frigate being 2000 tons bigger than the Rajput class destroyer.

Classification is practically meaningless these days. lol
INS Jyoti appears to be the second one from top. Second from bottom could be a RuN fleet tanker.

Also, the orange deck-paint of all RuN ships looks very odd.

You are right, Saar! I was lazy and assumed that the tanker between the IN ships was ours. Should have caught the orange deck!

nam · Post by **nam** » 18 Dec 2018 15:54

The P17A are also going to have MF Star just like P15A/B. Chances are next line of destroyer will be based on P17A

So for all practical purposes, we are building 7+3 destroyer. It is a better way to deal with the delays from shipyard.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2018 16:54

the russian ships are fairly old designs....70s chic.

John · Post by **John** » 18 Dec 2018 19:58

nam wrote:The P17A are also going to have MF Star just like P15A/B. Chances are next line of destroyer will be based on P17A

So for all practical purposes, we are building 7+3 destroyer. It is a better way to deal with the delays from shipyard.

Think you meant to say 7+4

. Overall size increase of P-17 can be traced back to navy's desire to incorporate more features than originally planned for, even look at P-28 they ballooned into 3,400 ton vessels and so did the cost. I hope we finalize the specs asap and focus on getting 2 Grigorovich class frigates out of GSL as quickly as possible.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2018 20:10

the deal with zorya for gas turbines is yet to be signed. now with ukraine on really bad terms with russia, they might say engine fitting and OEM manpower support (which is a must) will only be made available in India. so somehow the 2 stuck in russia, which were in "advanced stages of completion" ? would need to be lifted by ship to india and made right.

can the turbines and gearboxes be dismantled and put in by crane using the smoke shaft ?

the shipyard was saying it would take 3 years from the day zorya delivered the turbines to it - not a good sign

we should get the russians to deliver all the electronic and other systems piece by piece to india, keep in a warehouse, get the ukrainians to fit and test the engine and gearbox, complete some propulsion trials, then call in the russians to fit the electronics, test it, then get the ukrainians to return for sea trials.

I dont see them both co-existing on the same ship or shipyard.

John · Post by **John** » 18 Dec 2018 20:57

It doesn't look like GSL will be responsible for anything with first two vessels since the contracts with them only specify last 2 vessels. I believe Yantar SY will be installing the turbines as well or it is possible they are already installed but Ukraine refused to furnish key parts to complete it?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Dec 2018 10:45

This will end up taking nearly as much time and money as building P17 here, isn't it?

chola · Post by **chola** » 19 Dec 2018 12:17

abhik wrote:This will end up taking nearly as much time and money as building P17 here, isn't it?

Sounds like it. In fact, there is risk all around from building to engine procurement to payment to political risk (CAATSA.) Better to just raise the order of P17 imho.

John · Post by **John** » 19 Dec 2018 18:27

chola wrote:
abhik wrote:This will end up taking nearly as much time and money as building P17 here, isn't it?
Sounds like it. In fact, there is risk all around from building to engine procurement to payment to political risk (CAATSA.) Better to just raise the order of P17 imho.

Yes and likely more time and all said and done will cost probably more than even P-15bs. Only bright side is getting first two vessels from Russia cheap. I have heard Russia is trying to get rid of the other 3 vessels as well.

Why would it cost more? Because blue prints need to be translated, SY equipment need to be procured and most of the vessels part and electronics are Russian so they need to be imported. Already wrote a 500 million dollar check for just the design and help to Russia.

Even Russian navy considers Grigorovich outdated and built it just to mitigate the risk ( ironically Ukraine ended up dooming the vessels but RN is glad to give the vessels up) and have moved on with Gorshkov class.

IMO this is a Putin bailout Russia desperately needs $$ and GoI can do this under guise of Made in India while helping out Russia.

jpremnath · Post by **jpremnath** » 19 Dec 2018 18:33

^^ And while we bend over backwards to accommodate Russia, they happily develop their new relationship with the Pakis...Joint exercises, talks about new arms sales to the terrorstanis and even talks with Taliban against our interests!..I still haven't forgotten how they went ahead with their joint exercise with the Pakis immediately after Uri attack..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Dec 2018 21:35

The IN is happy with the Talwars ( upgraded to BMos), and having more of the type makes for easier support,ops and availability. Our yards are ( full) almost all delaying delivery of surface vessels at high escalated cost.Subs too. Acquiring almost ready vessels and opening a line here will rapidly increase numbers and allow for future weapons packed varianta on a smaller hull than a P-17A.

U-boats of a later design than the 209s for the IN.I mentioned Israeli Dolphins which carry their N-deterrent. There is no need for a giant conv. boat as some non- nuclear navies are attempting like OZ, Soko, Japan.We need both numbers of cheaper conv. boats and nuclear boats too to effectively deal with the Sino- Pak JV. AIP is essential for at least one line of conv. boats if not both.It allows extra UW endurance , giving it better survivability esp. from ASW aircraft and helos.

Ru keep building Kilos because they're v.good anx cheap.Probably around just $350M now..Not too long ago an IN Kilo got the better of a USN LA SSN in exercises.Both Amur/ Ladas and Kilos being built.Ladas may be better for Baltic waters..Moreover, no western boat can carry BMos, Klub or Kalibir.

titash · Post by **titash** » 20 Dec 2018 04:04

John wrote:
chola wrote:
Sounds like it. In fact, there is risk all around from building to engine procurement to payment to political risk (CAATSA.) Better to just raise the order of P17 imho.
Yes and likely more time and all said and done will cost probably more than even P-15bs. Only bright side is getting first two vessels from Russia cheap. I have heard Russia is trying to get rid of the other 3 vessels as well.

Why would it cost more? Because blue prints need to be translated, SY equipment need to be procured and most of the vessels part and electronics are Russian so they need to be imported. Already wrote a 500 million dollar check for just the design and help to Russia.

Even Russian navy considers Grigorovich outdated and built it just to mitigate the risk ( ironically Ukraine ended up dooming the vessels but RN is glad to give the vessels up) and have moved on with Gorshkov class.

IMO this is a Putin bailout Russia desperately needs $$ and GoI can do this under guise of Made in India while helping out Russia.

I'm actually with Phillip on this one.

Why more Talwars?
1) The IN apparently likes the boats - well armed, and with decent electronics
2) Commonality implies economies of scale for maintenance, spares procurement, etc.
3) If GSL can *manufacture* the last 2 Talwars, they can play an effective role in mid-life refits of the older ships as well as handle any upgrades without needing to send them overseas or tie up MDL/GRSE/Naval Dockyards. This is a very decent way of skillset upgradation.
4) How exactly are they outdated? The weapons and sensors are quite decent. There is no necessity for an expensive multi-function radar if you're not facing saturation strikes that can overwhelm defences. Helicopter capacity is good enough for its displacement.

In any navy, you can't have an all-gold-plated solution. It's just too expensive. A high-med-low mix is mandated and 10 Talwars are a very decent medium capability vessel when operating individually

John · Post by **John** » 20 Dec 2018 06:00

How exactly are they outdated? The weapons and sensors are quite decent. There is no necessity for an expensive multi-function radar if you're not facing saturation strikes that can overwhelm defences. Helicopter capacity is good enough for its displacement.

Don’t get me wrong these are not bad vessels but let’s call it for what it is a Putin bailout. As for drawbacks:
The vessels are quite cramped and heavily packed with weaponary ( compared with Shivalik class).
Single helo was big drawback at least for navy and one of reasons navy scaled up Shivalik class.

The vessels do not have fully enclosed mast and this great increases RCS. Considering the similar demand navy placed on P-28 and reason cost increased, weight increased and delays. I guess ASW vessels need stealth features more than front line surface combatants /s.

IMO MF Star is superior in dealing with saturation attacks and also Fregat radar is by no means cheap and we have already have domestic alternative in 3D CAR.

Carry only semi active guided Shtil missiles only 4 FCR can engage only 2 targets at a time on each sphere and FCR limits their range quite a lot. No word whether active guided missiles will be included.

The vessel doesn’t have room for larger air search radar and positiv radar capabilities are quite lacking. One of reasons IN ditched Positiv for El/M-2238 in shivalk.

titash · Post by **titash** » 20 Dec 2018 07:44

John wrote:

How exactly are they outdated? The weapons and sensors are quite decent. There is no necessity for an expensive multi-function radar if you're not facing saturation strikes that can overwhelm defences. Helicopter capacity is good enough for its displacement.
Don’t get me wrong these are not bad vessels but let’s call it for what it is a Putin bailout. As for drawbacks:
The vessels are quite cramped and heavily packed with weaponary ( compared with Shivalik class).
Single helo was big drawback at least for navy and one of reasons navy scaled up Shivalik class.

The vessels do not have fully enclosed mast and this great increases RCS. Considering the similar demand navy placed on P-28 and reason cost increased, weight increased and delays. I guess ASW vessels need stealth features more than front line surface combatants /s.

IMO MF Star is superior in dealing with saturation attacks and also Fregat radar is by no means cheap and we have already have domestic alternative in 3D CAR.

Carry only semi active guided Shtil missiles only 4 FCR can engage only 2 targets at a time on each sphere and FCR limits their range quite a lot. No word whether active guided missiles will be included.

The vessel doesn’t have room for larger air search radar and positiv radar capabilities are quite lacking. One of reasons IN ditched Positiv for El/M-2238 in shivalk.

To some degree, the P-17 Shivalik and the Talwar are completely different designs. Contrary to what the media loves to vomit out, the Shivalik is not an advanced derivative of the Krivak line. The IN's RCS studies had indicated that the tumblehome structure was stealth optimized. They passed it on to the Russians who were asked to suitable modify the Krivak superstructure, married to an all new sensor/weapons fit i.e. Top Plate + Klub + SA-N-7/12 + Kashtan/Positiv. The ship itself is a frigate sized 3000 ton Krivak hull.

The Shivalik was a clean sheet design (of 5000+ ton destroyer size, not 3000 ton frigate size) that included space for 2 helicopters and 2 powerful primary radar systems. The EL/M-2238 + Barak combo was validated on the Godavari class in the early 2000s and was brought in as a much more capable close-in air defence system than the Kashtan/Positiv...one that could be fitted to large destroyer sized vessels as a secondary anti-air capability. The EL/M-2238 also requires significant structural support and mast penetration unlike the much smaller hangar mounted Positiv. Note that the Shivaliks have exactly the same set of limitations as the Talwars i.e. 4 FCR for semi-active Shtil.

Ok...rambling post, sorry OT

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Dec 2018 14:37

Both Shivalik and Talwar class frigates are quite good in terms of Sea Keeping Capability , ASW and AD , Shivalik class has an edge in terms of SAM but the new Talkwar class IN is buying has VLS Shtil-1 with ARH capability so range would be greater than 65Km , The older one is SARH type but the rate of fire is quite good. The Navy loves the Talwar design as it has done well in tropical climate and during anti-piracy mission along the cape of horn.

Radar wise there are multiple factions besides being AESA or PESA or conventional antenna there are wave form patterns , algorithims , Frequency , bands sidelobes , outpower etc that comes into play , The IN still deploys LW-08 on newer ship for 2D Volume Search LR Radar and those of 80's design conventional antenna type but it has it own operational benefits due to it Band and Wave form pattern specially in detecting LO targets at long range.

In the end it is not about one ship or the other , Unless its a anti-piracy missile where ships are deployed in single or pairs with tankers , In operational role most ships will be deployed in dozen and likely as part of CBG and so each design be it corvette or missile boat , frigates and destroyers plus dozens of other supporting asset will compliment each other and no single asset role is any less than the others.

There is no one on one dick measuring contest in the IN navy may it it happens in PN or PLAN but every asset is equally important has a important role to play

John · Post by **John** » 20 Dec 2018 19:11

The IN still deploys LW-08 on newer ship for 2D Volume Search LR Radar and those of 80's design conventional antenna type but it has it own operational benefits due to it Band and Wave form pattern specially in detecting LO targets at long range.

Fyi would have switched over to RAN-40L (i believe we discussed the deal sadly almost a decade ago here in BR) but the fallout from Agusta bribery scandal killed it. Hopefully RAWL-03 will replace LW-08 in existing and new vessels.