Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2019 10:07

Rakesh, Don't be worried about quibbles. Important is 40 planes are being ordered.
And SU30MKI is much more capable than Mig 27 and much much more capable than Bison.
Look at the bomb load and gun capability. Include the bomb delivery accuracy.
These 40 are at least twice more capable than those.
If turn around can be managed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jan 2019 10:55

Rafale deal reminds me of the Hindi Proverb "Baghal mein bacha sheher mein dhandoora" , which means what you are searching for is right below your nose.

Rather than paying $8 billion to Dassault and buying outright a gold plated fighter that would be flown by some top jocks in the IAF before they bump up to become AVM or ACM or CAS in their career but would add little to Indian industrial ability or know how or IAF logistics standardisation which is spread so wide that Rafale will make it much more wider and thinner.

Not to mention the LCC of operating a platinum plated fighter for the 40 years of service it would see in IAF.

Spending that kind of money on MKI and Tejas program idiginising , adding AESA fleet wide , bumping the number to 50 % more than the current planned one would add more value to Indian Industrial capability and Indiginisation than any Rafale offset can provide.

Adding 600-700 Tejas in Mk1/Mk2/Mk3 and 400 MKI would give more teeth and capability and more fleet rationalisation and standardisation at 70-80 % cost that IAF spends on a gold plated fighter

They can do that with 60 -70 % of the money they are currently spending on Rafale counting on the higher side but probably less because there is a lot of sunk cost in the Tejas and MKI program and the remaining 30% money they would have lic built a Transport Aircraft here.

MOD needs to understand that the top IAF bosses are all ex fighter jock and so are the folks that write a RFP/RFI/ASQR etc their mind set is just to see some new fighter enter in to fleet even if that gives 10 % more capability then existing upgraded types , They dont care much about long term fleet rationalization plan ,logistics standardisation or how industry benefits as long as they can push their new toy in the guise of providing best option

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2019 11:31

Austin, Rafale has its uses. The M2K are old even with refurbishment. They would be special delivery.
Recall the two squadrons is SU30s that were never bought?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 18 Jan 2019 12:31

With Rafale, IAF will rule the skies above North Punjab /Sargodha which has the densest concentration of PAF airbases. Same for Siliguri corridor.

The later is non negotiable.

Rafale/Meteor is needed to fill in critical requirement which no amount of quantity of SUs can fill in.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Jan 2019 16:29

Paul wrote:With Rafale, IAF will rule the skies above North Punjab /Sargodha which has the densest concentration of PAF airbases. Same for Siliguri corridor.

The later is non negotiable.

Rafale/Meteor is needed to fill in critical requirement which no amount of quantity of SUs can fill in.

Disagree with this to an extent. Except for its LO capabilities, the Rafale would be at par with SU, rather the other way around actually, if we can get the SU kitted with the same level of sensors and data fusion. Unfortunately our law-abiding nature when it comes to ToT contracts prevents us from doing anything on this.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 18 Jan 2019 18:59

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Paul wrote:With Rafale, IAF will rule the skies above North Punjab /Sargodha which has the densest concentration of PAF airbases. Same for Siliguri corridor.

The later is non negotiable.

Rafale/Meteor is needed to fill in critical requirement which no amount of quantity of SUs can fill in.
Disagree with this to an extent. Except for its LO capabilities, the Rafale would be at par with SU, rather the other way around actually, if we can get the SU kitted with the same level of sensors and data fusion. Unfortunately our law-abiding nature when it comes to ToT contracts prevents us from doing anything on this.

That's a big if there isn't it..? Are you sure if its even possible practically speaking (of coarse theoretically possible)..? Even with Super 30 upgrade..? I am skeptical.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jan 2019 22:28

HAL to overhaul more Sukhoi-30 jets, says Union minister Bhamre

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

NASHIK: The Centre has decided to increase the overhauling of Sukhoi-30 fighter jets from 12 to 25 a year, said Union Union minister of state for defence Subash Bhamre on Thursday

The manufacture and overhaul of such fighter jets are carrieried out at the Nashik division of the state-owned Hindustan ..

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Jan 2019 01:16

JayS wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote: Disagree with this to an extent. Except for its LO capabilities, the Rafale would be at par with SU, rather the other way around actually, if we can get the SU kitted with the same level of sensors and data fusion. Unfortunately our law-abiding nature when it comes to ToT contracts prevents us from doing anything on this.
That's a big if there isn't it..? Are you sure if its even possible practically speaking (of coarse theoretically possible)..? Even with Super 30 upgrade..? I am skeptical.

i think it might be possible with indian made sensors for eg AESA radar to fit sukhoi waould theoretically have a huge number of radiating elements and range

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Jan 2019 01:18

Austin wrote:Rafale deal reminds me of the Hindi Proverb "Baghal mein bacha sheher mein dhandoora" , which means what you are searching for is right below your nose.

Rather than paying $8 billion to Dassault and buying outright a gold plated fighter that would be flown by some top jocks in the IAF before they bump up to become AVM or ACM or CAS in their career but would add little to Indian industrial ability or know how or IAF logistics standardisation which is spread so wide that Rafale will make it much more wider and thinner.

Not to mention the LCC of operating a platinum plated fighter for the 40 years of service it would see in IAF.

Spending that kind of money on MKI and Tejas program idiginising , adding AESA fleet wide , bumping the number to 50 % more than the current planned one would add more value to Indian Industrial capability and Indiginisation than any Rafale offset can provide.

Adding 600-700 Tejas in Mk1/Mk2/Mk3 and 400 MKI would give more teeth and capability and more fleet rationalisation and standardisation at 70-80 % cost that IAF spends on a gold plated fighter

They can do that with 60 -70 % of the money they are currently spending on Rafale counting on the higher side but probably less because there is a lot of sunk cost in the Tejas and MKI program and the remaining 30% money they would have lic built a Transport Aircraft here.

MOD needs to understand that the top IAF bosses are all ex fighter jock and so are the folks that write a RFP/RFI/ASQR etc their mind set is just to see some new fighter enter in to fleet even if that gives 10 % more capability then existing upgraded types , They dont care much about long term fleet rationalization plan ,logistics standardisation or how industry benefits as long as they can push their new toy in the guise of providing best option

rafale is just a necessary evil , one needs to think about operational requirements of IAF as well

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 19 Jan 2019 01:32

Austin wrote:HAL to overhaul more Sukhoi-30 jets, says Union minister Bhamre

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst
NASHIK: The Centre has decided to increase the overhauling of Sukhoi-30 fighter jets from 12 to 25 a year, said Union Union minister of state for defence Subash Bhamre on Thursday

The manufacture and overhaul of such fighter jets are carrieried out at the Nashik division of the state-owned Hindustan ..

This report mentioned 10yr/1000hrs MTBO. But previously when the first Su30 was overhauled, reports mentioned that the overhaul duration was hiked to 14yrs as IAF's utilisation have been on the lower side.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Jan 2019 11:57

Good Details on SU-30SM upgrade which mirrors MKI ....This will also be a template for SuperMKI program.

Although 30SM will get a uprated engine with 4 T more thurst but MKI wont need it coz engine thrust has never been an issue for it.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 0-flankers

Details:

Replacing the current AL-31FP with the AL-41F-1S would result in an extra thrust of four tonnes for the 38-tonne aircraft.
More powerful radar similar to Su-35 IRBIS
Now cockpit etc

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 19 Jan 2019 15:24

IAF is only planning for 8 (not 40) as per Ajit K Dubey

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/po ... 350290001/

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jan 2019 16:31

Just comparing higher after burner thrust of al41
Is not the end of deal

Its ait intake and size , weight amd fuel consumption also impact viability

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 31 Jan 2019 07:17

India asks Russia for 18 more Sukhoi-30MKI fighters to alleviate shortfall.

Rs 5,850-crore contract will boost IAF's Sukhoi-30 fleet to 290 fighters.

To alleviate the shortfall of fighter aircraft in the Indian Air Force (IAF), New Delhi, has approached Moscow for one more squadron of Sukhoi-30MKIs fighters

Reliable defence industry sources in Russia say India’s ministry of defence (MoD) wants Sukhoi to provide Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) with the raw materials and sub-systems needed to build 18 more Sukhoi-30MKIs at its Nashik facility. Production of this additional tranche can begin in 2020, when HAL Nashik completes delivery of an ongoing contract.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 31 Jan 2019 08:36

These are gap fillers so that SU30MKI lines keeps on humming. 18 additional is actually only 10 more (as we have lost 8 so far), but perhaps 1 more year of work for HAL till IAF decides should it order more or not.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 31 Jan 2019 08:48

Seems we are getting a new squadron, via hook or crook

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Jan 2019 10:15

SO when the Mig 21 Bison's and Mig 27's retire by say 2025

we should have

1) Around 280 Su 30 MKI
2) 36 Rafale plus another some from an Follow On 36 order
3) 60 Mig 29's + 50 M-2000
4) 110 Jaguars
5) 40 LCA MK1 IOC + FOC + 30 MK1A.

Plus Navy's Mig 29's plus whatever LCA they Pick up.

So tip of the spear 5th Gen aircraft and Bulk production of Tejas is what is required.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Jan 2019 11:04

So not 40, but 18 due to budgetary reasons. Unless LCA prod. is ramped up we' ll be in sh* t creek numberswise and as the saying goes," there's safety in numbers", However previous reports had the desi-built LCS cost almost as much as an MKI and NS wanted to know why.
I still think that the most cost-effective way to stem thd rot znx replace ancient MIGs is to acquire more MIG-29 UPG std. around $30-35M,or even MIG-35s which are cheaper ($40M+) bought outright/ assembled locally as 29 upgrades are being done locally, than an LCA as of now.M2K upgrades last year was a grand total of 1! HAL and the IAF had z spat over who was to pay for extra labour costs where already $50M per bird had been paid to Dassault!

Extra MKIs would fit the bill if extra Rafales are in Q, given its massive all- round performance, especially if they are BMos compliant from the OEM.Single pilot .MIG-29s better suited to replace retiring 21/27s and vastly superior to anything that Pak operates leaving the bulk of our MKIs to deal with China.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Jan 2019 11:38

Philip, a SU 30 has far larger turnaround time between sorties than an LCA, its maintenance and life cycle costs from fuel consumption etc are much higher. While capability wise a SU 30MKI is much better. Plus LCA can work in tandem with SU 30MKI and Awacs where the much smaller LCA radar cross section with its radar off can probably will be detected much later by the enemy.

We have the SU 30 in numbers, we now need the LCA Tejas in Numbers.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 31 Jan 2019 12:17

EXCLUSIVE: IAF Arming Su-30s With ASRAAMs, May Standardise Missile Across Fleet
Shiv AroorJan 31 2019

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/01 ... fleet.html

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 31 Jan 2019 12:30

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/01 ... fleet.html

In an ambitious, unprecedented move, the Indian Air Force is currently in the final stages of a move that could ruffle feathers in Russia — mating a British missile system with its Russian-origin Su-30 MKI fighters, something it has never done before. Top IAF sources tell Livefist that a pair of HAL-built Su-30 MKI jets have undergone requisite software modifications to deploy the MBDA ASRAAM heat-seeking close combat air-to-air missile. What the IAF intends to do is fully replace the Su-30 MKI’s current close combat missile — the Russian-built Vympel R-73 — with the ASRAAM in phases.

Part of a £250 million IAF contract with MBDA UK in July 2014, the ASRAAM-armed Jaguars are to be declared operationally ready this year. IAF sources said the first ASRAAM-armed Su-30s would be declared ready around the same time, and will make use of the same testing cycle.

NAL sources confirm to Livefist that flutter analysis and safety of flight tests were conducted last year. With carriage flight trials underway, guided test-firings will likely take place this summer.

On the other hand, as Livefist reported earlier this month, the IAF is looking to expand its Su-30 fleet with a proposal to build 40 more jets under license at HAL’s Nashik facility. Livefist can now confirm that the Indian government has formally requested Russia to extend the production license, a requirement before deciding on the additional numbers it will choose to build.

This means additional orders are sure, but number is not decided.

The move to attempt a standardisation of the ASRAAM across its combat aircraft fleet could be helped along by a proposal from the missile’s maker, MBDA, which has proposed to shift final assembly of the weapon system from Bolton in the United Kingdom to the facilities of India’s state-owned missile house Bharat Dynamics Ltd in Hyderabad as part of offsets obligations across contracts.

So ASRAAM integration with LCA is almost a given thing then.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Jan 2019 13:05

ashishvikas wrote:EXCLUSIVE: IAF Arming Su-30s With ASRAAMs, May Standardise Missile Across Fleet
Shiv AroorJan 31 2019

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/01 ... fleet.html

Not sure why he is making it sound so bombastic , MKI has been integrated with Israel and Indian weapon so this is part of regualar process for fleet wide availability of weapons , M2K has been integrated with R-73 and Python A2A missile

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Jan 2019 13:41

Austin wrote:M2K has been integrated with R-73 and Python A2A missile

When?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Jan 2019 13:44

Astra & I-DerbyER have been qualified on Su-30 replacing R-77 & R-27
NGARM is being qualified on Su-30 replacing Kh-31
ASRAAM replacing R-73

Indicative of Russian weapons development falling behind Western/Israeli systems.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Jan 2019 13:50

tsarkar wrote:
Austin wrote:M2K has been integrated with R-73 and Python A2A missile
When?

This was done even before Kargil when M 2000 were Integrated with Russian A2A missiles.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Jan 2019 13:52

These integration are not a replacement but a broadening of weapons available fleet wide , so that dependency on a single weapon and logistics is avoided

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Jan 2019 14:24

Aditya_V wrote:
tsarkar wrote: When?
This was done even before Kargil when M 2000 were Integrated with Russian A2A missiles.

Do you have any source? Russian weapons were never mounted on Mirage 2000. Reasons are many.

The reason Su-30 can take Indian/Western weapons is because we have the integration code of Bars. Same for LCA & Jaguar were we have integration codes for Elta 2032 & 2052 and we should be getting the codes for RBE2AA for Rafale and RDY-2 for Mirage 2000I.

We never had the integration codes for older RDM-4 or RDM-7 on Mirage 2000H

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 31 Jan 2019 14:31

Austin wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:EXCLUSIVE: IAF Arming Su-30s With ASRAAMs, May Standardise Missile Across Fleet
Shiv AroorJan 31 2019

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/01 ... fleet.html
Not sure why he is making it sound so bombastic , MKI has been integrated with Israel and Indian weapon so this is part of regualar process for fleet wide availability of weapons , M2K has been integrated with R-73 and Python A2A missile

because perhaps the bit of news that he failed to highlight or we failed to pick up is this ....

What the IAF intends to do is fully replace the Su-30 MKI’s current close combat missile — the Russian-built Vympel R-73

Is the ASRAAM better than the R-73 ?

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Jan 2019 14:36

For one ASRAAM is modern than R73. Second I believe it is longer ranged than R73, reaching near BVR .

Read somewhere it can be integrated with aircraft radar(i presume datalink for near BVR shot).

Regarding SU30 weapons, there was a comment by Israeli rep in one of the defence show, that Derby was integrated with LCA & SU30.

He was trying to sell Derby-ER, so I will wait for more confirmation.

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Jan 2019 14:39

tsarkar wrote:Astra & I-DerbyER have been qualified on Su-30 replacing R-77 & R-27

Ah, so this is the second confirmation regarding Derby-ER....

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Jan 2019 15:43

tsarkar wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:This was done even before Kargil when M 2000 were Integrated with Russian A2A missiles.
Do you have any source? Russian weapons were never mounted on Mirage 2000. Reasons are many.

The reason Su-30 can take Indian/Western weapons is because we have the integration code of Bars. Same for LCA & Jaguar were we have integration codes for Elta 2032 & 2052 and we should be getting the codes for RBE2AA for Rafale and RDY-2 for Mirage 2000I.

We never had the integration codes for older RDM-4 or RDM-7 on Mirage 2000H

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/today ... ntury.html

In an effort to simplify logistics, the IAF has successfully integrated western missiles with its Soviet designed aircraft and vice versa. Under the first such program, MiG-21s were retrofitted with a capability to launch the Magic II AAM. More recently, MiG-29s have been adapted to carry the Super-530D. Integrating Soviet missiles with the Mirage 2000s proved more of a challenge, but was overcome by the mid-1990s. Indeed Mirage 2000s on missions over Kargil in the summer of 1999 were carrying R-73 AAM. The Mirage 2000 is also capable of deploying the R-27 AAM. It is more than likely that once the R-77 enters service in quantity, it will be integrated with the Mirage 2000.e Mirage 2000.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 Jan 2019 15:51

Aditya_V wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Do you have any source? Russian weapons were never mounted on Mirage 2000. Reasons are many.

The reason Su-30 can take Indian/Western weapons is because we have the integration code of Bars. Same for LCA & Jaguar were we have integration codes for Elta 2032 & 2052 and we should be getting the codes for RBE2AA for Rafale and RDY-2 for Mirage 2000I.

We never had the integration codes for older RDM-4 or RDM-7 on Mirage 2000H
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/today ... ntury.html

In an effort to simplify logistics, the IAF has successfully integrated western missiles with its Soviet designed aircraft and vice versa. Under the first such program, MiG-21s were retrofitted with a capability to launch the Magic II AAM. More recently, MiG-29s have been adapted to carry the Super-530D. Integrating Soviet missiles with the Mirage 2000s proved more of a challenge, but was overcome by the mid-1990s. Indeed Mirage 2000s on missions over Kargil in the summer of 1999 were carrying R-73 AAM. The Mirage 2000 is also capable of deploying the R-27 AAM. It is more than likely that once the R-77 enters service in quantity, it will be integrated with the Mirage 2000.e Mirage 2000.

If Rupak is reading this, then I would request him to confirm. I never heard of or saw Mirage 2000 flying at Kargil with R-27 and R-73. They were always armed with then modern Super 530D and Magic II for all Kargil sorties.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Jan 2019 16:03

R-27 long range variant integration was tried but failed with M2K

nash · Post by **nash** » 31 Jan 2019 18:33

Seems like we might get 40 more Su-30 MKI

Shiv Aroor
‏Verified account @ShivAroor

BIG. The Indian Govt has formally asked Russia to renew HAL's license to manufacture more Su-30 MKIs fighters for the Indian Air Force. My report for @Livefist earlier this month which first reported the plans.
https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/10 ... 0170634241

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 31 Jan 2019 19:18

Given additional costs HAL incurs per MKI, wouldn't it be better if we import whatever the number from Russia directly? Also, the MKI lines can be used for Tejas.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2019 19:19

JayS wrote:https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/01 ... fleet.html

On the other hand, as Livefist reported earlier this month, the IAF is looking to expand its Su-30 fleet with a proposal to build 40 more jets under license at HAL’s Nashik facility. Livefist can now confirm that the Indian government has formally requested Russia to extend the production license, a requirement before deciding on the additional numbers it will choose to build.
This means additional orders are sure, but number is not decided.

Well said. Who knows whether it will be 8, 18, 40 or some other number.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 31 Jan 2019 20:55

I hope for 48.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2019 21:24

Can we do 8 + 18 + 40 = 66!

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 01 Feb 2019 00:21

Aditya_V wrote:SO when the Mig 21 Bison's and Mig 27's retire by say 2025

we should have

1) Around 280 Su 30 MKI
2) 36 Rafale plus another some from an Follow On 36 order
3) 60 Mig 29's + 50 M-2000
4) 110 Jaguars
5) 40 LCA MK1 IOC + FOC + 30 MK1A.

Plus Navy's Mig 29's plus whatever LCA they Pick up.

So tip of the spear 5th Gen aircraft and Bulk production of Tejas is what is required.

Plus HAWK

Plus war reserves including retired MIGS

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Feb 2019 00:35

Aditya_V wrote:1) Around 280 Su 30 MKI
2) 36 Rafale plus another some from an Follow On 36 order
3) 60 Mig 29's + 50 M-2000
4) 110 Jaguars
5) 40 LCA MK1 IOC + FOC + 30 MK1A.

Plus Navy's Mig 29's plus whatever LCA they Pick up.

So tip of the spear 5th Gen aircraft and Bulk production of Tejas is what is required.

1) 264 Su-30MKI airframes will be left by 2025, assuming no further orders are made and no further crashes occur.

2) Do not count any more Rafales beyond the present 36. For one, the CAG report is not out yet and the 2019 elections are not done either. And if the BJP loses in 2019, then all bets are off.

3) The MiG-29UPG strength is in the early 50s. The Mirage 2000 strength is around 47 - 49 airframes.

4) 110 Jaguars will not be around in 2025. Upgrade program is seriously delayed and will result in quicker retirements.

5) I agree on the 40 Mk1s. The Mk1A I have no clue on. Perhaps JayS or Indranil can advise on that.

VKumar wrote:Plus war reserves including retired MIGS

The IAF will not fly a single plane beyond her TTL (Total Technical Life). Most combat planes are retired when they have reached the end of their TTL.