Should we discontinue EVMs?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2019 22:38

x-post...
IndraD wrote:Yesterday an EVM hackathon was organised in London, where a cyberhack from US (Syed Suja) was making abnormal claims of how EVMs can be tempered, and state elections along with 2014 was hacked (hence rigged) this was part organised by an unknown body called IJA UK about which even sr honchos from Indian media are unaware.
Kapil Sibbal presided over the charade. Unfortunate that now dirty war against Modi is being fought on UK soil.
Silver lining on cloud is that Delhi Police has filed a FIR on Syed Suja.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 058850.ece

and

Singha wrote:he claimed to be ex employee of ECIL (ecil has released a letter no such thing) and that his entire family was massacred by yindus and he ran away to usa in 2014. he kept his face covered and did not do any hacking but made all these statements.

he appeared on a tv screen, not in real life. probably a poorly paid ISI fellow in pindi
:rotfl:

congi social media campaign and dirty tricks dept is indeed based in london.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby disha » 22 Jan 2019 22:47

And here Mayawati joins the paper ballot (so that they can go back to old ways)

https://www.news18.com/news/politics/mayawati-demands-2019-lok-sabha-polls-to-be-held-through-ballot-papers-2010097.html

'Vote Humara, Raj Tumhara' Won't Work Anymore: Mayawati Demands Immediate Ban on EVMs

A fresh controversy has erupted with cyber expert, Syed Shuja, claiming in London the 2014 general polls along with assembly elections of various states were rigged through EVM hacking


"Cyber expert" my foot! :x

#mediapimps of course have been paid to give such "experts" as much air time as possible. And the entire CONgoon brigade in tow. This has stamp of Cambridge Analytica all over.

First Rafael. Second EVM.

Goal is to spread FUD and the worst part is that the CONgoons and stupid opposition have crossed a line that damages the very fabric of India. In their mad lust for money and power they want to damage the very nation. How pathetic.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Theeran » 22 Jan 2019 22:53

This all looks like a ploy to get more people to vote. Opposition best bet is to make up stories that govt cannot be trusted and get people out of their houses on voting day. Throw a ton of stuff out to confuse the voter and not let them hear the government's message.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Rahul M » 23 Jan 2019 00:43

Theeran wrote:This all looks like a ploy to get more people to vote. Opposition best bet is to make up stories that govt cannot be trusted and get people out of their houses on voting day. Throw a ton of stuff out to confuse the voter and not let them hear the government's message.

get people to vote ? if more people vote bjp wins by a landslide.
it's more like a)propaganda against the legit govt & b) FUD so that people sit out voteday thinking it is futile while their votebanks do the damage.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby IndraD » 23 Jan 2019 00:58

Ashish Ray organizer of the EVM event in London is an employee of National Herald.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2019 01:47

disha, Turns out Syed Shuja is a fake name. He got US asylum claiming riots in Hyderabad after 14 may 2014. And had 13 witlesses.
ECI has filed FIR on Syed Shuja and both Zero and Singhvi are under scrutiny for abetting a fraud.

Its all over Twitter.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Theeran » 23 Jan 2019 03:42

Rahul M wrote:get people to vote ? if more people vote bjp wins by a landslide.
it's more like a)propaganda against the legit govt & b) FUD so that people sit out voteday thinking it is futile while their votebanks do the damage.

Disagree. I'm betting elections will be during agni natchathiram - hottest time of the year. High voter turnout usually signals anti incumbency.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby vijayk » 23 Jan 2019 05:29

People are misjudging this EVM expose ...

Every media including firstpost/Marathi media covered it in full spreading BS allegations

The allegations they kept repeating are so that crooks can sell the lies thru whatsapp:

1. Cyber expert they keep calling him
2. Gopinath Munde was murdered because he knew EVM rigging
3. Man who investigated Munde's death Tanzil Ahmed was murdered too

same lies like Judge Loya's death and Rafale.

Immediately trash media like Hindu started publishing why Germany cancelled EVMs. Later Subhahini Hyder tweets that article and questions why we need EVMs at all since it is done in phases and take a month to complete elections and there is no advantage of instant results.

I am sure media is going to keep on spreading these lies until someone files PLC that Shah/Modi killed Munde.

very treacherous and dangerous game being played.

Cambridge Analytica is doing its job. Will people of India are smart enough to understand this game?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby disha » 23 Jan 2019 05:44

A new front has been opened and this is a civilizational war.

This is from firstpost: https://www.firstpost.com/politics/kapil-sibal-lends-london-hackathon-undeserved-gravitas-gives-bjp-opportunity-to-corner-congress-on-evms-5941181.html

Shuja’s allegation of mass EVM rigging may appear unfounded and ludicrous, but it does have a deleterious effect on Indian democracy. The space for uncertainty and distrust in India’s electoral process is created when its sanctity is put under scrutiny — albeit through outlandish charges — from foreign shores. Delegitimising of elections, or even any attempts at doing so, is a highly irresponsible act in absence of any proof, convincing or otherwise.

..

Be that as it may, Sibal’s presence at an event where unsubstantiated and fantastical allegations were levelled against India’s electoral process — conducted by a constitutional body with some degree of competence — may be tantamount to Congress shooting itself in the foot. Sensing an opportunity, the BJP is already upping the ante, and claiming the Congress is trying to create an alibi for its impending defeat. The entire tamasha also reflects poorly on the media, which gave blanket coverage and free publicity to the bizarre event without even a modicum of due diligence.


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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2019 07:40

Its deliberate move by Zero Sibbal. The Congress wants to de-legitimize the election process as they know Modi will win 2019. So they are preparing to claim rigged elections.
If the EVMs are rigged why not cancel Karnataka, MP, CG, RJ elections and club them with LS elections in April-May?

Both Sibbal and AMS are under NIA scanner

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby SriKumar » 23 Jan 2019 07:55

Congress has no locus standi on this matter of EVMs. During MMS's term, a flaw (maybe 2) were demonstrated publicly- about 7-8 years ago. It was shown on chennel TV9 (AP) and no other chennel. The person who demonstrated out the flaw was hounded, and perhaps even arrested (cannot recall now). The person in fact posted on BRF on the EVM thread which was operational then. He had some discussions with Dileep (who was the defender-inn-chief of the EVMs). INC had a chance to fix it, and I will assume that they do what is best for the country, so they did fix it and it is better now.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby souravB » 23 Jan 2019 07:57

Aside from the rona-dhona and everything, one thing we must see from this futile exercise is the importance of open voting.
I mean if we let go of the secrecy of who a person is voting 75% problems are solved, 25% will be new problems but that is a separate discussion. Isn't the support of a person be open? shouldn't that is where democracy be heading?
Print a slip with an unique id after the vote is cast and who it voted for and publish the result with each UID against the vote cast. Or better yet, publish name against who they have voted for.
Make everybody responsible to their action.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 23 Jan 2019 08:16

That is Harikrishna Prasad Vemuru. I had e-mail discussions with him during those days (first part of 2010). He was arrested in Aug. Not sure what happened after that.

I write fiction on very thin threads, but this Shuja guys thread is even thinner. Not even worth the time refuting it.

BTW, didn't Jio limited deploy in 2015?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby yensoy » 23 Jan 2019 10:20

ramana wrote:disha, Turns out Syed Shuja is a fake name. He got US asylum claiming riots in Hyderabad after 14 may 2014. And had 13 witlesses.
ECI has filed FIR on Syed Shuja and both Zero and Singhvi are under scrutiny for abetting a fraud.

Its all over Twitter.


Folks in the US who have the will, please report this fraud to USCIS and get his ass deported. He claimed asylum on fake grounds and is damaging to national interest (and for that matter American national interest) by having a free run of the west.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Zynda » 23 Jan 2019 11:30

From what I understand, USCIS scrutinizes asylum applications with a fine comb before giving approval, at least for mango man. If the above dude got asylum based on fake events, he must have had strong political backing within both US & India. I am not in US & thus can't do much about it...I do urge people to report the fraud to USCIS but I doubt anything would come out of it. But efforts should be made...

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Vikas » 23 Jan 2019 12:26

1. Has anyone really shown in actual polling booth conditions if the EVM's can be hacked ?
2. What designates someone as cyber expert if even the identity of the person is protected?
3. If 2014 elections were rigged, Why did not the whole congoon party resign enmass in 2014 itself in protest ?
4. If Mahathugbandhan wins majority in 2019, Can it be claimed that the results were rigged due to hacking of EVM. After all BJP doesn't have absolute control over hacking.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby SBajwa » 23 Jan 2019 19:29

If the EVMs have proprietary operating system and do not have a wireless or standard USB or any other bus how can a hacker get access to the hardware?

The port on EVMs are (hardware) totally proprietary and can any person see the design or buy them from any seller?

The software is proprietary and nobody has access to it?

Why isn't media asking these questions? I guess presstitutes rule!

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby IndraD » 24 Jan 2019 03:35

any chance of a dhaga on 2019 poll?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby disha » 24 Jan 2019 03:52

yensoy wrote:
Folks in the US who have the will, please report this fraud to USCIS and get his ass deported. He claimed asylum on fake grounds and is damaging to national interest (and for that matter American national interest) by having a free run of the west.


Sure. Just need "Syed Shujas" identity (foto/address/identifiable marks)., only the name will not do.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby disha » 24 Jan 2019 03:54

Zynda wrote:From what I understand, USCIS scrutinizes asylum applications with a fine comb before giving approval, at least for mango man.


No it does not.

One just go into the pile and USCIS has a target to pick from the pile and process say 'M' number of visas. The number 'M' is dependent upon where the political wind is blowing.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 07 Jul 2019 18:53

Hello folks, long time no see.

General Election 2019 is over and the dust has settled. VVPAT was used for every EVM this time, and that is a positive development, on the face of it.

However, after I got home from voting, I had a vaguely uncomfortable feeling. Thinking about my voting experience, I realized that I had seen the VVPAT slip for only about 3 seconds, while the light in the VVPAT window was on. The window seemed dark and opaque when the light was off. Probably made of 1-way glass. The voters were not shown the slip being printed, nor were voters shown the slip being cut and dropped.

This leads to the following vulnerability:
- Voter 1 comes and votes for party A. Slip gets printed and displayed to him for 3 seconds. But the slip does not get cut and drop into the box.
- Voter 2 comes and also votes for party A and gets shown the same slip.
- Voter 3 comes and votes for party B. At this time the slip is cut, and a new slip is printed for party B. This slip is displayed for 3 seconds, and is then cut and dropped.
- Before Voter 4 comes, an extra slip for party B gets printed and dropped.

Thus the box now has 1 slip for party A and 2 slips for party B, although there were 2 voters for A and 1 for B.

The flash memory on which the votes are stored will also have 1 vote for A and 2 votes for B. Therefore, if, by some chance, the slips are checked (which I think happens for 5 booths per assembly segment), there will be no discrepancy between the electronic and paper tallies.

Now, there will be objections about how a Trojan can be activated in favour of a desired candidate, given all the randomization and mock polls. We have been through that discussion many times before. One approach which I have suggested in the past, is for an agent to activate the Trojan by a secret key combination after accessing the ballot unit as an ordinary voter, during actual voting. There are other possibilities if the booth staff is compromised. We need not go through that debate again. It was these vulnerabilities that necessitated the introduction of VVPAT in the first place.

Then I wondered whether this was an issue for the EVM used in my booth, or was it an issue for all EVMs. This official video from the EC published in Oct 2018, shows that this is in fact an issue for all new VVPAT units - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtZIlxw871I

On the other hand, if you look at this video published by the EC for an older model VVPAT unit (from 3:07 to 3:37), it is clear that the light is on for the entire duration - you see the slip being printed and also being cut and dropping - https://youtu.be/Rf3UMQ72j7A?t=187

The conclusion is that the before the 2019 election, a software change was deliberately made, which introduces this vulnerability.

After having reached this conclusion, I reached out to Hariprasad, who is the MD of an embedded systems company NetIndia, and the author of a paper exposing EVM vulnerabilities. Readers may recall how he had been arrested by the Mumbai police for having worked with a "stolen" EVM. It turns out the has been speaking out about this issue on twitter at least since April 11th, which was before I voted and noticed the issue. Here is a video of an interview he gave to Tiranga TV - https://twitter.com/NewsHtn/status/1117384530162176000

As was pointed out by Hariprasad on twitter, here is the official spec regarding the VVPAT slip - "The voter can see this slip through a screened window where it stays for seven seconds, and then it automatically gets cut and falls down into a sealed drop box". See http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=161136

Now, if the slip is visible for only 3 seconds, it defeats the purpose of the slip staying in the window for 7 seconds.

It seems that the very first person to notice the vulnerability is in fact our ex-member Rahul Mehta, who has been speaking about it at least since 23rd Feb - https://www.facebook.com/mehtarahulc/po ... 4636926922 . I understand he is banned here currently? Perhaps admins may consider un-banning him, so that he can contribute to this discussion.

In my view, the very least that needs to be done is to have the light in the VVPAT window on for at least 11 seconds, from 2 seconds before the beginning of the printing process till after the slip has dropped into the box. In fact, given that LED bulbs have a long life, there is no reason why the light cannot be on for the entire 12 hours of voting. Also, the window needs to be made of transparent glass, not 1-way glass as is the case now.

And lastly, we need to find out more about the process through which this vulnerability was introduced into the design of the VVPAT units. Who in the EC / BEL / ECIL was lobbying for this??

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sachin » 08 Jul 2019 15:57

Pranav wrote:However, after I got home from voting, I had a vaguely uncomfortable feeling.

Election Commission data shows EVM-VVPAT tally was completely correct. I don't know if you read reports like these. The Election Commission with a sense of pride had informed every one that at every single instance VVPAT slip count matched the votes logged in the machine. That is 100% accuracy. The VVPAT counting process also was well thought out, and the polling agents were asked to be witnesses during the physical counting.

In KL, the VVPAT counting was taking time and by then the EVM based counting was over. When the polling agents of the losers' party knew the result they actually slithered away and did not want to wait till VVPAT counting is completed. But this was a mandatory process, and the counting officials had to send out police men to get these agents back. And they had to sign off that the counting was correct and it tallied.

People who want ballot papers to be back are just wishing for the days of the past when ballot papers were sealed and dumped in the box; just like how post men used to stamp the letters. We must also know that even VVPAT is actually delaying the voting process. So more demands, more would be the time taken to complete the voting process.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 09 Jul 2019 08:02

Sachinji,

As per Rahulji's proposed hacked algorithm, BOTH paper votes in EVM can be changed along with electronic votes, and both will be same, and both can be different from votes cast

(1) say I vote for banana

(2) Mehtaji's code will print banana, turn light on for a few seconds

(3) so I will see Banana print for a few seconds

(4) then the code will turn light off

(5) But the code will not cut banana paper slip.

(6) I leave. my friend comes to vote

(7) the glass is dark black. so he cannot see banana paper slip behind glass

(8) my friend votes for banana

(9) the code will simply turn light ON without printing anything. So my friend will also see a banana. He will NOT think that it is a banana that was printed before he came

(10) code turns light off

(11) code cuts the banana paper slip

(12) then code prints apple paper slip

So two voters came. Both voted for banana. But there is one apple paper slip and one banana slip

I am in the USA. I could not vote in this election. I am yet to see new EVM. But from videos. it is clear that EVM glass is black. I will be going to India in a few months. I will see EVM myself and check what glass is.

(PS: I have been lurking BRF since my college days and had been a follower of this thread since then. I myself implemented an EVM as a college project and never had faith in EVM since then. )

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sachin » 09 Jul 2019 10:30

kapilbishnoi wrote:(1) say I vote for banana

Assuming that Banana is the election of symbol of a candidate, can you let me know how can the hacking algorithm be included in the EVM when in India the position of symbols (in the EVM) is not uniform? The symbols are placed based on the name of the candidate (English alphabets in descending order). An EVM can hold between 2000 to 3840 votes. Which means in many booths there has to be multiple EVMs required to complete the polling.

Mehtaji's code will print banana, turn light on for a few seconds

Can you also let us know at which stage in the election process would the EVMs be hacked? The party who plans to manipulate the EVMs will have to get the hacking algorithm added to every single EVM (including spares) which would be used in every constituency. And the hacking alogorithm has to be customised for every constituency - based on the name of the party's candidate. The EVMs are also EEPROM based devices, they are not connected to any other network. The voting unit can be attached to the ballot unit, that is all.

I have been lurking BRF since my college days and had been a follower of this thread since then. I myself implemented an EVM as a college project and never had faith in EVM since then.

College projects are not the benchmark to decide on the quality of the product, sir :). The ECI had thrown an open challenge asking people to hack the EVMs, when elections are conducted using the established processes. Idiots from AAP wanted to take home the EVM and then come back after two days. In real life scenario taking home and EVM to reprogram is not going to happen, as there are multiple rounds of security arrangements (done by central & state governments). Another group of hackers came up with their own EVM device, when no such devices gets used any where by the ECI.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 09 Jul 2019 11:24

The theories has now gone from absurd to ridiculous to schizophrenic!!

It has been irrefutably shown that the EVM firmware can not be hacked or replaced. Then VVPAT is added as an extra layer. Now some cock-a-mamie scheme is brought in! Where do we end?

The glass is black for a reason. One need to protect the secrecy of the vote. It is absolutely important to make sure that only the voter sees the VVPAT.

Any further argument will be dumped into the bin along with flat earth, fake moon landing, illuminati etc.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sachin » 09 Jul 2019 15:25

Dileep wrote:It has been irrefutably shown that the EVM firmware can not be hacked or replaced. Then VVPAT is added as an extra layer. Now some cock-a-mamie scheme is brought in! Where do we end?

The fundamental question here is that; do these nay-sayers really know the Election Commission's process & procedures of conducting every aspect of an election? Perhaps they should go through (and understand) the hand book which is issued to presiding officers. It is detailed, and also clearly tells the checks and balances in place.

Perhaps, the first question to every EVM challenger should be; do you know and understand the Election Comission's procedure & guide lines on conducting the polling??.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 09 Jul 2019 23:12

It has been irrefutably shown that the EVM firmware can not be hacked or replaced.


Not outsiders, but insiders can put the vote rigging code in VVPAT. BEL would be having a small team of 20-40 coders who write firmware and also write code for ECI server which prepares files to loaded in VVPAT about 15 days before actual polling. So number of people to be managed are small -- less than 50 or even less. Vote changing code can be put by them.

Assuming that Banana is the election of symbol of a candidate, can you let me know how can the hacking algorithm be included in the EVM when in India the position of symbols (in the EVM) is not uniform?


VVPAT has to print candidate name, candidate number, party name and candidate symbol on paper and show to voter. Some 14 days to 20 days before polling, this data becomes final, and is uploaded to ECI server by Collector's staff. After that, a program written by BEL programmers (call it P) ruins on ECi servers. That program P prepares a several files that, BEL technicians in district download from ECI server and upload it in all 2000 VVPAT in that loksabha. These files have all candidate names, candidate numbers candidate symbols etc. encoded in some file format VVPAT understands. At this point, the program P in ECI server can put a password PW in one the symbol files to be favored. VVPAT code will look at all symbols JPG files and favor the symbol which has that specific password PW in it. Thus symbol to be favored can be communicated by each of 2000 EVMs in Loksabha using password PW. The BEL technicians knows nothing about it. Only programmers who wrote VVPAT code and program on ECI server need to know about it PW and this mechanism.

(my VVPAT like project, whcih I implemented in college, had similar mechanism for vote rigging. My code used to look for my date of birth and time of birth in BMP files and favor the symbol with that passcode in BMP files. I used BMP files because putting such data in BMP is easier than putting such numbers in JPG. So communicating symbol or candidate number to be favored is easy. But I could not implement vote rigging fully because paper slips and electronic votes would mismatch OR voter will see wrong slips. Now rahuji has shown a method to fool voters which becomes possible because glass is black).

------------
.

I didnt vote this time as I was in USA. Everyone does say that they saw same symbol they voted for. I asked many if they saw printing and cutting, but many wont remember and many are not sure that they saw printing and cutting !!
.
So when you voted for symbol X, I am sure you saw X. But did you see X getting printed or just saw symbol X? Unless VVPAT showed you actual printing, there way no way YOU can be sure that that X was not printed earlier in case previous voter had also voted for X. So if all you saw was X, and not printing of X, then may be, your vote got transferred to Y. (for more, pls email rahulji )

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pankajs » 09 Jul 2019 23:51

kapilbishnoi wrote:
It has been irrefutably shown that the EVM firmware can not be hacked or replaced.


Not outsiders, but insiders can put the vote rigging code in VVPAT. BEL would be having a small team of 20-40 coders who write firmware and also write code for ECI server which prepares files to loaded in VVPAT about 15 days before actual polling. So number of people to be managed are small -- less than 50 or even less. Vote changing code can be put by them.

Without knowing the process being followed and the checks and balances being used we have such complete assurance!

I too haven't looked at the complete process but I know that a mock poll is conducted in-front of all party reps to verify the integrity of the machine/software just before the machine is used in the poll. The machine has to correctly tally the votes cast during the mock poll and in-front of the reps of all parties who check the tally and certify the machine as good.



So when will the BEL engineers change the firmware/code/software?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pankajs » 10 Jul 2019 00:17

More on mock polls ... quick query on google. I am sure one can find lot of additional details on th EC website.

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2014/state ... icers.html
Conduct mock polls 1-hr before election: EC to poll officers
According to the directives, mock polling should be conducted one hour before polling and minimum 50 votes should be cast in EVMs in the presence of polling agents. Results of mock polling should also be shown to polling agents.

It has been directed to inform polling staff about this during training. At the mock poll presiding officers should get it confirmed from polling agents that indicator in front of name of candidate to whom vote is cast is lit up on pressing the button. If an EVM develops snag during mock poll, it should be replaced immediately. The Commission has clarified that mock poll process should be video-graphed at polling booths, where the facility is available.

After the mock poll has been conducted and the results signed off by reps for all parties, the machine registers are cleared and the machine is sealed under the watch of the party poll agents. Each strip, tag, etc used in the sealing process has a unique number and all are duly noted by the party reps and the machine is put into action in an hour.

So when will the rogue ECI/EIL/BEL/others engineer/programmer hack/replace the firmware/software/code of this disconnected machine?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 10 Jul 2019 06:39

The firmware is One Time Programmable. Once programmed, it can not be changed. The only way to have a different program is to replace the board.

The order of candidates will be known only after the final list is prepared. So, biasing it beforehand is impossible. The immensely resourceful Rahul Mehta proposed one of the most convoluted scheme for this, which is as theoretically possible and as easy as balancing a cone on its tip.

Machines are brought in en masse to the state and allocated randomly to the district, and then once again randomly to the constituency. So, any 'magically pre-biased' machine possibility is gone.

Machines are stored by the local babudom with involvement of the political parties. So, is there really a possibility of replacing the machines, or boards within the machines, except by Harry Potter technology?

And what am I doing here? Proving earth is round?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 10 Jul 2019 13:47

Overcoming testing and mock polls
---------------------------------------

The malicious code is put at the time of manufacturing.

And it will behave honestly till JPG with passcode comes.

Say polling is on 23-apr-2019.

The BEL technician downloads THE FILE F (that has all candidate names, their candidate numbers and their election symbols) from ECI server (or is it BEL server ?)

Then the file F is downloaded on 10-april-2019.

And then uploaded on VVPATs on 11-april-2019 or 12-apr-2019.

Then testing is done for 8 days.

Then all VVPATs are sealed on 20-apr-2019 .

Then EVMs are given to presiding officers.

EVMs are opened in booth on 23-april-2019.

So for 48 hours, there is no voting and no power.

That file F can have polling date time 23-apr-2019 8am.

So VVPAT logic will be to start rigging 2 hours after poll datetime, and that too after 100 votes.
.
(Also VVPAT has a knob, which says whether it is mock poll or real poll. But I am not sure about knob)
.
And VVPAT can also have logic --- after candidate file F comes, and if candidate JPG has passcode, then start rigging after 10 days, and only if there was no power on for past 48 hours, and after 100 votes and after 2 hours after power on.

So candidate number can be passed in via by file F downloaded from BEL server or ECI server.

datetime can be passed by same file F or implemented by delay of 10-12 days after file F comes.

Only tough hurdle is VOTER. He pressed, banana, and must see banana.

Rahuljis scheme will work by showing banana of the previous voter.

Because glass is dark black, Not only dark black, it is front side mirror and only backside see-thru.

So fooling voter taken care by logic in VVPAT put right while manufacturing and is assisted by dark black glass

PS: Dileepji . your logic for keeping glass black is wrong. because once vote paper slip falls in the bin, it is invisible to next voter anyway. so there is NO need to keep glass black that too front side mirror and only back side transparent

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dumal » 10 Jul 2019 14:00

The use of dashed lines and periods for bullet points etc., and the writing style of rapidly building up a straw-man with no or little basis, remind me of the one and only original RM!

Is kapilbishnoi really RM or is he an evil twin, (if there can be one)?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pankajs » 10 Jul 2019 14:05

^^
Yup. I have only seen a few posts of the param gyani RM but this last post with its format is very similar to what I remember. Perhaps RM has re-incarnated in a new body(handle) thus proving the yindu theory of trans-migration of soul.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pankajs » 10 Jul 2019 14:08

kapilbishnoi wrote:Overcoming testing and mock polls
---------------------------------------

The malicious code is put at the time of manufacturing.

And it will behave honestly till JPG with passcode comes.

Say polling is on 23-apr-2019.

The BEL technician downloads THE FILE F (that has all candidate names, their candidate numbers and their election symbols) from ECI server (or is it BEL server ?)

Then the file F is downloaded on 10-april-2019.

And then uploaded on VVPATs on 11-april-2019 or 12-apr-2019.

Then testing is done for 8 days.

Then all VVPATs are sealed on 20-apr-2019 .

Then EVMs are given to presiding officers.

EVMs are opened in booth on 23-april-2019.

So for 48 hours, there is no voting and no power.

That file F can have polling date time 23-apr-2019 8am.

So VVPAT logic will be to start rigging 2 hours after poll datetime, and that too after 100 votes.
.
(Also VVPAT has a knob, which says whether it is mock poll or real poll. But I am not sure about knob)
.
And VVPAT can also have logic --- after candidate file F comes, and if candidate JPG has passcode, then start rigging after 10 days, and only if there was no power on for past 48 hours, and after 100 votes and after 2 hours after power on.

So candidate number can be passed in via by file F downloaded from BEL server or ECI server.

datetime can be passed by same file F or implemented by delay of 10-12 days after file F comes.

Only tough hurdle is VOTER. He pressed, banana, and must see banana.

Rahuljis scheme will work by showing banana of the previous voter.

Because glass is dark black, Not only dark black, it is front side mirror and only backside see-thru.

So fooling voter taken care by logic in VVPAT put right while manufacturing and is assisted by dark black glass

PS: Dileepji . your logic for keeping glass black is wrong. because once vote paper slip falls in the bin, it is invisible to next voter anyway. so there is NO need to keep glass black that too front side mirror and only back side transparent

As Bogus as they come .. especially the highlighted part ... The mock poll in conducted 1 hr before the start of the poll, the unit reset and sealed right infront of the poll agents of all parties. Any technical/hardware/software fault is caught during mock poll and the unit is reject. After sealing it is impossible to tamper with the unit without the co-operation of all officials AND more importantly ALL the different party agents have to be part of the plot! Imagine doing that at all booths? :rotfl:

Truly the param pujya jagat gyani RM jee has re-incarnated.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 10 Jul 2019 17:45

Symbol loading happens at the VVPAT, independent of the Ballot unit. So, there is no means to influence the ballot unit.

There is no server involved. The candidate name is typed in at the time of loading. The symbol is selected from an existing library.

There is no knob/button on the VVPAT.

There is no real time clock in the EVM, so it will not know the elapsed time.

The earth is still round!

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 10 Jul 2019 21:56

Pankaj Ji,

I am not Rahulji. In fact, I am in the USA, and he is in India. But yes, the idea that EVM can show same paper vote twice to two voters comes from his FB posts.

I will ignore all the silly statements you made.

About passing tests before the mock poll and passing mock poll :

Collector gives EVMs to booth presiding officers 2 days to 3 days before the poll. At that time, they are sealed and the suitcase is also sealed. Collector gives strict orders to booth officers not to take out EVM out of suitcases under any circumstances before polling day at the booth. I referred to THAT as sealing in my post.

On polling day, EVM is taken out, and a mock poll of 20 to 50 votes, at least one vote per each candidate, is done in front of candidate agents and staff. And then the EVM is sealed again at around 8 am before the actual voting.

So how can tempered code pass mock poll?

EVMs have a clock inside or some time keeping mechanism. So tempered code will know exact DateTime from clock inside EVM. Or it can guess the current date using seconds passed since the moment when file F (which has candidate names, numbers, symbols) was uploaded in VVAT. That way, date if not exact time can be guessed correctly.

Now tempered code in EVM can use logic that "do vote stealing only on polling date after 10am , and also after 10 days after file F was uploaded, and that too also after 100 votes are also cast and each candidate got one vote (in mock poll, all candidates have to be given at least1 vote)". Till then, it will not transfer any votes. In fact, each candidate getting 1 vote is a good way to know that a mock poll is going on !!

In short, using clock, using the time when file F was uploaded, and using actual polling time put in file F, the EVM can guess whether the mock poll is over or not

So all tests including tests before polling day and mock poll on polling day will come accurate. And then tempering will start some 50 to 100 votes after actual voting.

Dileepjee,

If actual voting is on 23-apr-2019. all randomization at the national / state level is done before 9-apr-2019. on 10-apr-2012, a file with all candidate names symbols etc is downloaded from ECI sever by BEL staff in collector office. Then that BEL staff uploads this file in all 2000 VVPATs for that loksabha. After that randomization is within that loksabha only. So randomization will not create any problem for tempered code, which takes passcode inside JPG to decide symbol to be favored.

Clearing mock polls, intermediate tests was never a difficult problem. Only tough problem was

How to show banana to voter and print apple maybe later. And that problem got solved with the help of black glass.

So instead of accusing me of being Rahul ji, which I am not, please show how tempered code with timer logic included will fail.

And Dileepji, please google on "EVM real time clock" and you will get many articles including Wikipedia page on EVM saying that EVMs have a clock. In fact, when CU is turned on, it shows date first.

And on youtube, please see "VVPAT mock poll". And you will see that VVPAT has a knob on the back which is horizontal during the mock poll and later turned vertical (or maybe the other way). I don't know that fully, because I have seen VVPAT in videos only.

In fact, an interesting question I had since ages is -- how is a clock inside CU synched?

Most clocks go fast or slow by a few seconds per week. Say clock time is set accurately when CU was manufactured. But after five years when it is used, the clock may differ by hours or even 1-2 days. So how is clock synched? I don't have an answer. Some say that the clock is set by BEL technicians by connecting CU's port to laptop and laptop program passes commands. If so, we have an easy way of communicating the candidate number to CU. Just give the tempered program to BEL technicians. Some say that if the clock is not accurate, then CU is sent to the factory. I don't have an answer to how a clock in EVM is synched with actual time. Please post the answer if you know. Thanks in advance.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sachin » 10 Jul 2019 22:46

kapilbishnoi wrote:Collector gives EVMs to booth presiding officers 2 days to 3 days before the poll.

No. The EVMs are handed over one day before the voting day. The issuance of EVMs happen in the morning, and then the presiding officer and the entire staff required for polling are taken to their polling booths using government owned/leased vehicles (i.e not in their private vehicles). The police men on security detail for the booth generally lands up slightly before.

Now tempered code in EVM can use logic that "do vote stealing only on polling date after 10am , and also after 10 days after file F was uploaded, and that too also after 100 votes are also cast and each candidate got one vote (in mock poll, all candidates have to be given at least1 vote)".

Can you explain how the vote stealing can be arranged? As I said, the candidate list is placed in alphabetical order and that could change from constituency to another. So you cannot have an algorithm which says "after 10 am and 100 votes start transferring votes to candidate #2". That is because on one constituency the #2 position could be a CPI(M) candidate and in another areas it would be a CPI candidate ;).

So randomization will not create any problem for tempered code, which takes passcode inside JPG to decide symbol to be favored.

I assume that by JPG you meant a JPEG picture file. The EVM consists of three units; 1) the control unit - the device in which the votes gets registered 2) the ballot unit - this is the device which has the buttons against each candidates name 3) the VVPAT display - the display unit which shows the voted symbol.

Now the control unit and the ballot unit does not even have a JPG file inside it. Those devices do not require it. Even in the polling unit, the candidates name is fixed as a paper label and so is the symbol. It is not displayed electronically. So how can a JPG file placed there mysteriously change the logic? And the VVPAT machine - which may have the symbol as a .JPG file does not have any control on the "control unit". VVPAT unit is a passive unit, which just prints stuff based on directions from control unit. And the votes are always counted & tallied at the control unit.

And the entire Lok Sabha elections are conducted by officials drawn mainly from the state government service. There are state level election commissioners (who are from state's IAS cadre). The strong rooms where the EVMs are kept are guarded by central & state police forces. Now if one party has influence over every single official involved in the election process; then that party has become so "omni potent" that elections itself may not be required :).

Just give the tempered program to BEL technicians.

If life was so simple, all parties could approach BEL technicians right? They would be the most sought out group of people in the country. And how can one party also influence all the BEL technicians involved, to program every single EVM in favour of their candidates? Also there are two manufacturers for EVMs; BEL and ECI at Hyderabad.

As I said earlier - Election Commission had organised a hackathon asking techies to come and hack their machines. There were no major takers of this from any big political party. Even the Doubting Thomas Rahul Mehta did not try to prove his theories there. The perennial loser and whiner CPI(M) said they were "satisfied" with how EVMs worked. As I said AAP jokers came up with their on EVM machine and said they could hack it; EC said they need to hack the machine used by EC and that too considering that EVMs are locked up in strong rooms (AAP-ians cannot take the device home).

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 11 Jul 2019 11:34

Sachin Ji,

    after 10 am and 100 votes start
    transferring votes to candidate #2".

In my proposed scheme (i.e. Rahuji's proposed scheme), the tempering code is not BU or CU. BU is 100% honest and CU is also honest (except CU or BU will give clock DateTime to VVPAT). The manipulation is done by code in VVPAT installed at manufacturing time. The code will remain 100% honest till it gets a passcode and passcode will have symbol JPG name and also date time when vote transfer will start. Till passcode comes, work honestly.

VVPAT is not passive printer as you say. It is a full computer. It has JPG of symbols, candidate numbers and candidate names. One lok-sabha has 2000 EVM each with one VVPAT. How do all 2000 VVPAT know name and symbol for each of the 10 candidates to 50 candidates? A file F is uploaded into VVPAT by BEL technician 12 days before the actual voting. The upload happens in collector office. And where does BEL technician get that file F? BEL technician downloads the file F from BEL server. A program on BEL server makes that file F and that F goes into all 2000 VVPAT of that specific loksabha. File F for different loksabha will be different. That file F has names of candidates, their serial numbers and symbol JPG. That file can have a passcode and specify which symbol to favor and datetime when that symbol has to be favored. ]

Now, for example, candidates are "no. 7 - banana" and "no. 8 - apple"

if voter press button 7

BU sends 7 to VVPAT

VVPAT decides whether the vote should be changed
if not, VVPAT sends 7 to CU
if yes, VVPAT sends 8 to CU

The voter who presses 7 will always see banana paper slip. It can be printed after voter pressed, in which case vote stealing didn't happen. But can be banana paper slip which was printed when the PREVIOUS voter had voted. In that case, vote stealing did happen.

(Q1) So when does VVPAT get candidate number or symbol to be favored
(Ans) 12 days before the actual voting, via file F from BEL server

(Q2) How does BEL server communicate candidate number to be favored
(Ans) The file F which is downloaded from BEL server by BEL technician 12 before voting and then uploaded into VVPAT will have a passcode, and also candidate number/symbol to be favored and exact time when favoring should start. Since file F was made 12 days before actually voting in that loksabha, the program that made had all that information

(Q3) How does VVPAT get time
(Ans) EVM has a clock - may be in BU or CU or VVPAT or all three. When CU starts, it shows the date. Hence it must be having a clock or getting time from BU. It doesn't matter which of the three units has a clock, as long as one has it.

All above are easy questions which even mediocre like me had figured out way back in the year 2014 when VVPAT was used in 2-3 constituencies in Haryana.

The only part I could never figure out was "how to fool the voter's own eyes and still get VVPAT paper match with CU votes !! "

VVPAT can also know when to be honest and exactly when to behave dishonestly. Now VVPAT can still send no. 8 to CU. No problem here. But if voter voted for "no.7 banana", then VVPAT must show "no. 7 banana" paper printed. So when the paper is matched with CU, they will differ. For years, I was thinking about how paper can be changed. And Rahuji's method, assisted by dark black VVPAT glass, makes that happen. I see no technical reason to have a dark black glass. Could you give any technical reason for having dark black glass in VVPAT and not ordinary two side colorless transparent?

Other points you raised:

I will skip your congress bjp cpm aap points. Nothing to do with EVM insider manipulation. The one who manipulates EVM is bigger than the sum of all these showcases

EVM-jokathon was a joke. The allegation against EVM has always been INSIDER TEMPERING and never outsider hacking. Even in Hariprasad video, people get access to EVM, which is they first get entry and insider may be illegal. In EVM jokathon held by ECI under IIT professors did not allow people even to see internal circuit forget change code or change CPU or change motherboard. An insider can change the code. So invites didn't have the same power as insiders. So jokathon was a joke.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 11 Jul 2019 11:50

Dileepji, Sachinji, Pankaji,

Can you explain how candidate numbers, their names, and their symbols come inside VVPAT memory? Thanks in advance

I could not find any ECI manual or video on that. From what I hear, BEL technician downloads the file from BEL server and that uploads them in VVPAT 12 days before the actual voting.

VVPAT cannot have all symbols loaded at the time of manufacturing as new symbols keep coming. ECI releases new symbols every six months. And now ECI allows parties to make their own bitmaps too, to be submitted 3 months before elections start.

There are 2000 VVPATs in one loksabha. I don't think technicians can connect a keyboard to all 2000 one by one and enter names and select symbols. Time taken and human errors will be too high. Imagine a place with 50 candidate. And if this is done, then also there is NO problem in manipulation --- the custom keyboard can pass passcodes, datetime to start manipulation and candidate# to be favored, etc to VVPAT. And the keyboard can have a receiver to get that information. But I don't think BEL technicians use a keyboard to enter information in 2000 VVPATs
.
Please see if you can explain how candidate numbers, their names, and their symbols come inside VVPAT memory? Again, thanks in advance

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pankajs » 11 Jul 2019 13:30

Saars ... we are discussing with someone who sits in the US has NEVER seen the VVPAT EMV, the Indian variety, per his own admission. His familiarity with the VVPAT is via youtube videos!

Given that his gyan is via youtube, it would be fair to say that he does not understand the "interlocking" physical/procedural verification protocols that prevent the kind of manipulation that he is talking about.


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