Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 03 Feb 2019 10:04

The air-conditioned trains under the RRTS project are designed to travel at a speed of 180kmph and will be available at a frequency of 5-10 minutes. They will have priority seating for people with special needs, besides exclusive coach for women.

Of the eight identified corridors to connect various NCR towns, three have been prioritized under phase 1 by the planning commission-appointed task force. The three corridors are Delhi-Ghaziabad-Meerut, Delhi-Gurugram-Alwar and Delhi-Sonepat-Panipat.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 03 Feb 2019 10:45

BLR seems to have been given a big namam in the budget. Just a tiny token mention of the suburban rail project in the budget speech.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Zynda » 03 Feb 2019 11:26

^^Saar, where is the budget published? I really hope that for BLR, all help is extended in getting its station expanded. IR wants to acquire existing Binny Mills land & use it for station expansion by putting up more pit lines & expanding the current electric loco maintenance depot...but I think it has been stuck in financial negotiations for eons. I guess the above move goes a long way in easing out congestion issues & also accommodating more trains originating from BLR.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Zynda » 03 Feb 2019 11:32

arshyam wrote:Though I'd personally love that, the problem is that there is no sign of upgrading speeds on this route. For the railway board, Delhi and its environs are the only ones that deserve greater speed tracks (and I am talking about measly 120/130, forget T-18 type 160/180). The max permissible speed has languished at 110 on this route for decades now (the ghat section of course is lower) and the Shatabdi expresses do not cross 105 anywhere. SR takes a cue from the RB and does not bother upgrading simple things like turnout speeds, junction crossover points like Jolarpettai (all trains spend at least 15 mins crossing this one junction, stop or no stop), and Katpadi insists on sticking with 15kmph turnouts. When such simpler efforts that could speed up existing trains aren't being attempted, what's the point of running T-18 here?

I think Shatabdi & many express trains touches 110 between BLR & MAS. But I do agree with your overall statement. No efforts are being made to improve infra to support slightly higher speeds in many of S Indian routes. Even routes which are being laid newly, I am not sure if they are designed for operations 160 Kph+...perhaps vsunder saar can answer the above.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 03 Feb 2019 12:10

Zynda wrote:^^Saar, where is the budget published? I really hope that for BLR, all help is extended in getting its station expanded.

The so-called "pink book" of various railway units are out. See the one for SWR here: http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railwa ... 15-SWR.pdf. Page 30, section 443# mentions BLR suburban rail with an allocation of ₹10 crores.

Consolidated list of all pink books: http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railwa ... 6,539,2148

Zynda wrote:IR wants to acquire existing Binny Mills land & use it for station expansion by putting up more pit lines & expanding the current electric loco maintenance depot...but I think it has been stuck in financial negotiations for eons. I guess the above move goes a long way in easing out congestion issues & also accommodating more trains originating from BLR.

I didn't look specifically for expansion at SBC, but a simple word search for KSR or Bengaluru didn't reveal any matches relevant to the station expansion.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 03 Feb 2019 12:29

Zynda wrote:I think Shatabdi & many express trains touches 110 between BLR & MAS. But I do agree with your overall statement. No efforts are being made to improve infra to support slightly higher speeds in many of S Indian routes. Even routes which are being laid newly, I am not sure if they are designed for operations 160 Kph+...perhaps vsunder saar can answer the above.

I used a GPS app in my last few trips to check the speed - 105 with a very occassional spurt toward 110. 100-105 seems to be the most comfortable speed on this route.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Zynda » 03 Feb 2019 20:12

I did the same as well...but my phone was an older one and it could be slightly inaccurate but the speeds fluctuated between 107-113 (where ever MPS was permitted) and I deduced the average MPS was 110. This was for Shatabdi & once for Lalbagh.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 03 Feb 2019 20:57

the current BLR-MAS route is not suitable for higher speed upto jolarpettai probably. after that its flattish. but the damage to timing already done.

a new BLR-MAS via kolar side would be much higher speed and that is where the future HSR/semi HSR plans are...parallel to the new expressway.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 03 Feb 2019 21:44

arshyam wrote:
Zynda wrote:^^Saar, where is the budget published? I really hope that for BLR, all help is extended in getting its station expanded.

The so-called "pink book" of various railway units are out. See the one for SWR here: http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railwa ... 15-SWR.pdf. Page 30, section 443# mentions BLR suburban rail with an allocation of ₹10 crores.

Consolidated list of all pink books: http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railwa ... 6,539,2148

Zynda wrote:IR wants to acquire existing Binny Mills land & use it for station expansion by putting up more pit lines & expanding the current electric loco maintenance depot...but I think it has been stuck in financial negotiations for eons. I guess the above move goes a long way in easing out congestion issues & also accommodating more trains originating from BLR.

I didn't look specifically for expansion at SBC, but a simple word search for KSR or Bengaluru didn't reveal any matches relevant to the station expansion.


Arshyam: I am surprised, I consider you as one of the better informed people regarding IR on this forum. Surely you know about the satellite terminal coming up in Byapannahalli. Phase 1 is due for completion next month. Here is a youtube video documenting construction of the Byapannahalli satellite terminal. There are pit lines and stabling lines here. 3 platforms by March 2019, 4 additional by 2020, 7 in all. Trains to Chennai can be started from here. Let them start premium trains for Chennai like Shatabdi from SBC.

Byappanahalli terminal videos of construction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezSY6F955DU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TitWYGkiQHE

Quadrupling of tracks between Bangalore Cantt. and Whitefield has already started with earthworks. There were LA issues with an intransigent state govt.
Picture of earthworks between Cantt and Whitefield:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4905/3143 ... 247b_b.jpg


Other works around Bangalore since NDA took over:

1. Completion of the doubling and electrification of the Bangalore-Mysore section and the end of the 15 year fiasco of shifting Tippu's armoury. Start of more services on this section. Again KTPCL was not cooperative.

2. Electrification of the single line between Bangalore and Gooty via Makalidurga completed, on Bangalore-Mumbai and Bangalore-Hyderabad routes.

3. Doubling of the above single line started. Section between Makalidurga and Hindupur to be commissioned by Jan 2019 and between Yellahanka and Makalidurga by March 2019. Do not know the status. Should be close according to videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XN1btbiw0U

4. As part of Bangalore suburban railway. Electrification of Hosur-Byapannahalli line on Bangalore-Salem route. Poles are already on. Will help the IT crowd, Carmelaram etc etc, videos show that. See the video below, 3 months ago pole foundations are being dug.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omtey0viU1U


5. Hubbali-Bangalore only 200 km left for doubling with earthworks in very advanced stages. Shortage of rails due to renewal of track etc seriously hampering projects all over India. Anyhow Tumkur-Gubbi on Bangalore-Hubbali is due to be commissioned soon, Arsikere-Karadi 36km commissioned in Dec 2018, and Chikkajajur-Tolahunse in early Jan 2019.

6. Binny Mills is operational, but only of limited value. Naganahalli/Mysuru is being developed as a terminal to decongest Mysuru-Bangalore. Pratap Simha MP announced addl. stabling lines at Asokapuram:

https://twitter.com/mepratap/status/108 ... age%3D1083

I have only singled tracks around Bangalore. Electrification is also on between Guntakal-Goa and poles have reached Koppal from Guntakal. Doubling between Guntakal and Hubli is in very last stages and also between Hubli and Londa it is done. Goa people are creating issues for LA for doubling between Londa and Mormugoa. Even then between Shivthan and Londa in KA it is finished.
Last edited by vsunder on 03 Feb 2019 22:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 03 Feb 2019 22:07

^^ Saar, I only commented on the presence of SBC's expansion (or lack of it), and the amount that has been allocated under the Bengaluru suburban network project. I am sure you remember the latter was announced with great fanfare last year with a supposed outlay of ₹17,000 crores (link). I find it hard to tie that in with the ₹10 crore allocation for this FY.

I don't disagree with any of your other points.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 03 Feb 2019 22:20

Singha wrote:the current BLR-MAS route is not suitable for higher speed upto jolarpettai probably. after that its flattish. but the damage to timing already done.

Not really. The route from KR Puram (KJM) to Bangarapet (maybe even up to Kuppam) is mostly flat and 110kmph capable. No reason this cannot be upgraded further. This is a good 90 km distance between KJM and KPN.

JTJ to MAS is a good 214 km, so plenty of scope to save time by higher speed operations. Also keep in mind that this line serves traffic to/from CBE as well as Kerala apart from BLR. So any upgrade here will benefit a lot of passengers. The irony is that the entire 67km stretch between AJJ and MAS is now quad tracked (another credit to Suresh Prabhu for pushing it through), but time savings haven't been realised. It still takes an hour to cover this stretch, which was the case when I first travelled on this route on West coast express way back in 1995. The tracks are mostly flat and straight, with a very low incline (1 in 100 or lesser ruling gradient IIRC).

The HSR as and when it comes will of course go through the Kolar-Chittoor route, which is the shortest route as the crow flies. Of course, it will be interesting to see what they do about the grades, as this route is the steepest and was thus avoided by the original rail engineers a 150 years ago.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 03 Feb 2019 23:24

arshyam wrote:^^ Saar, I only commented on the presence of SBC's expansion (or lack of it), and the amount that has been allocated under the Bengaluru suburban network project. I am sure you remember the latter was announced with great fanfare last year with a supposed outlay of ₹17,000 crores (link). I find it hard to tie that in with the ₹10 crore allocation for this FY.

I don't disagree with any of your other points.


this is exactly how UPA regime dragged on the bogibeel bridge for 20 years. huge funds needed but trickle funds allocated in rail budget every year.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Rishi_Tri » 04 Feb 2019 02:47

arshyam wrote:^^ Saar, I only commented on the presence of SBC's expansion (or lack of it), and the amount that has been allocated under the Bengaluru suburban network project. I am sure you remember the latter was announced with great fanfare last year with a supposed outlay of ₹17,000 crores (link). I find it hard to tie that in with the ₹10 crore allocation for this FY.

I don't disagree with any of your other points.


It shall be worthwhile noting that full fledged budget shall be presented in May. Judgement calls right now shall be premature.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 04 Feb 2019 19:09

Quadrupling of rail lines only exists for about 50-60kms around the major metros.
On trunk routes on the Golden quad, some routes are not even doubled and not electrified, like Chennai-Mumbai where there is a large stretch between Bhigwan and Gulbarga where about 100km is not doubled and certainly all of Bhigwan-Solapur-Gulbarga not electrified. However a tender has been issued to Tata to electrify this section in the last month and now electrification and doubling will go on together. By the end of May about 70km will be left for doubling.

CCEA had cleared many sections for third lining between Chennai and New Delhi in 2015, but the pace is slow and there is no guarantee that by 2025 the project will be complete. Funds are not forthcoming and various railway zones have different efficiencies. SCR is one of the better performing zones and they too are not on top as there is a paucity of funds. Concentrating on this North-South link let us see what we have:

New-Delhi to Mathura ( quadrupling done but not commissioned). Mathura-Agra-Jhansi, third line sanctioned by CCEA in 2015, tenders called but nothing really happening under NCR one of the worst zones in IR. Jhansi-Bina, patch tripling taking place, Jhansi-Babina was to be commissioned by now, videos show tracks linked but no OHE. Bina-Bhopal-Habibganj took 8 years but finally triple lined, 120km. Bhopal-Itarsi started in 2015, only Bhopal-Bhadbhada track linking done(30km) and maybe commissioned this year. Bhadbhada-Budni(environmental clearance and difficult terrain in Satpuras has hampered the third line). Budni-Hoshangabad-Itarsi( yard work going on in Hoshangabad), new third bridge across Narmada complete in Dec 2018, should be commissioned soon. Itarsi-Nagpur, ghat sections, tunnels etc, a 18 km section in Teegaon-Chichonda ghat section to be commissioned March 2019 by Central Railway. The more serious engineering challenge is the viaducts and tunnels between Dharakoh and Ghoradongiri in this section of Nagpur-Itarsi. Doubling and attendant tunnel construction for the second line was done in 1966, Dad helped out in that, I assume the tunnels with 1966 emblazoned on them are still there(check it out while traveling on Tamil Nadu express, Karnataka express, rajdhanis or any of the Delhi-Hyderabad trains), he was a smart cookie. All you guys Shri A.R. Raichur, M. P. Pattani your work liveth for evermore, this young generation does not know what it was like to do tunneling projects in India in early 1960's, Ramganga hydel project, Giri Bata hydel project, Dandakaranya Bolangir Kiruburu railways, DBK railway, one of the best executed projects ever in India, came under budget and on time. I would not have been where I am without your shining examples of excellence in work.
Dad's light saber bought on June 12th 1947(it says so in the inside of the leather case in dad's neat hand-writing) is with me, you know those days all jedi knights carried a light sabre(their slide rule). The original single line was done in the late 1920's.

Nagpur-Wardha should be commissioned as quadruple tracks as it carries both east-West and North-South traffic, have been hearing of this 80km section for more than a decade, nothing. Wardha-Balharshah, only a 15 km section supposed to be commisoned after 3 years of work between Sonegaon-Chitoda.

Balharshah-Kazipet, only a 20km section near Mancherial triple lined and third bridge over Godavari commissioned last year. Many collieries and NTPC thermal plants here.

Kazipet-Vijayawada 214 km only a 10km section earthworks done and minor bridges done between Kazipet and Warangal: See for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPOP-7LdtE4&app=desktop

Between Vijayawada and Gudur earthworks have started in spurts here and there, Nellore, Ongole, Bitragunta, Kavali, etc. Take your pick, get happy, sad,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM8o5rgH39I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xSPnU-3JTY

Between Gudur and Chennai-Central, quadrupling has taken place in some sections, Tiruvotiyur-Tondiarpet-MAS etc. catering mainly to Chennai suburban traffic that in the old, old days before 90% of the forum were born, me talk late 1950's went up to Gummidupoondi, now with a gazilion people in India all of India looks suburban. Now I think Chennai suburban may even go to Gudur. Don't know.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 04 Feb 2019 20:45

I mentioned DBK Railway in my post earlier. Here is a small snippet about it from the Internet:

DBK railway

The famous Kirundul- Kottavalasa (KK Line) considered the engineering marvel of the Indian Railways. The 448-km KK line, connecting Kirundul and Vizag port, was commissioned in 1967. It was built to promote exports of the Bailadila ore and mines. It rises from the sea level gradually, at 1:60 gradient, with 8 degree curve passing through 59 tunnels (total tunnel length is 14 km) along Anantagiri Ghat to reach Araku valley a distance of 105 km, at an elevation of almost 1,000 metres. The Dandakaranya-Bolangir-Kiriburu (DBK) Railway Project constructed the railway line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koraput_railway_station

http://eastcoastrailwaywaltairdivision. ... story.html

A.R.Raichur, M. P. Pattani were chief engineers and project managers of a company that executed many of these challenging projects as India emerged from colonial rule, DBK railway being one of them. Working in Bastar and Jagdalpur in the 1960's wasn't a piece of cake, even today. Dad also has the distinction of being the first of the few who introduced industrial engineering into India, coupled with his knowledge of basic engineering his skills were just what was needed. The pioneers like Thadani, IBCON etc John Moore who ran his empire from near Ballard Estates have all long gone from memory. Books mention their names. That is historical books that talk about the advent of managing engineering practices in a modern way in India.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Vi ... 481679.ece

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Vi ... 001751.ece

DBK railway had the highest BG station in India and arguably the world as we are the only country that has BG. Only now has the Kashmir railway beaten that record, what after 50 years!! Problem with these old timers, they don't talk about their exploits and take to twitter, and the younger generation does not read history to really understand anything. Now all sorts of people who design a bolt put it up on twitter, no standards.

Now back to Train-18, stone throwing, defecation on tracks, HSR, HSR, HSR a thousand times.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Supratik » 04 Feb 2019 23:57

Nagpur metro will open end Feb adding another city with metro.

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/all-hands ... f-february

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby chetak » 05 Feb 2019 00:59

watch video.


twitter

This An Engineering Marvel....Buiĺding of Bridges

https://twitter.com/MaheshJoshi_MJ/status/1092002393246453761

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Gagan » 05 Feb 2019 02:26

This is a cheeni SLJ900 Bridge Erector building a bridge.
Mahesh Joshi mistook this for India.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby chetak » 05 Feb 2019 03:27

Gagan wrote:This is a cheeni SLJ900 Bridge Erector building a bridge.
Mahesh Joshi mistook this for India.



not arguing, but he has not mentioned anything about it being Indian.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Gagan » 05 Feb 2019 05:24

Oh OK

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Kashi » 06 Feb 2019 11:52

I am surprised at the lack of discussion over the railway budget

Indian Railways Gets Rs 64,587 Crore For FY-20

Image

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby JayS » 06 Feb 2019 13:12

The freight Earnings are increasing significantly. Looks like the work done on improving the main bread and butter earning segment done since 2014 has started giving dividends.

The numbers previous to three years were 104k, 109k, 106k in reverse order. From 104k to 117k, to 129k to 143k (possibly even higher in RE later).

http://www.pib.nic.in/Pressreleaseshare ... ID=1519539

Interestingly half the total freight moved by IR is Coal.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 10 Feb 2019 00:35

Historically Central Railway or more specifically the GIP(The Great Indian Peninsular Railway) introduced operations Research and optimization techniques into India during WW2 to optimize wagon movement to aid the war effort. This was followed by Ordinance Factory, Ishapore/Ishapur and then the Imperial Bank the forerunner of the State Bank of India.
JRD Tata was also suitably impressed by the benefits and requested his friend John Moore to advise TISCO and TELCO along similar lines. John Moore started International Business Consultants (IBCON) after the war. There was a nasty fight when Fern Bedeaux the wife and widow of Charles Bedeaux who was was the first to introduce such techniques into the US (some say he was murdered by the OSS, the forerunner of the CIA) arrived in India and started Eastern Bedeaux and started legal proceedings against IBCON around 1949 for infringement of patent rights. The case was settled leaving IBCON the entire field in India.

IBCON was run from a set of elegant offices in Ballard estates, Mumbai. ACC Cements, numerous Textile Mills in North India and Mumbai, including Victor Sassoon and his empire(which was partly based in Shanghai before the war) all signed up. IBCON was headed by John Moore till 1962 when he stepped down and the board of directors became fully Indian. A number of turnkey projects were successfully completed by IBCON engineers and personnel outside India, in 1952 they were the first to execute a turnkey project in Sri Lanka, this being the first engineering project outside India carried out by Indian engineers. John Moore's "boys" also carried out projects in Myanmar, the Middle East, Iraq esp. and Malaya and Singapore. By the 1970's IBCON could not compete with the use of computers and the company started to lose ground. Exxon or Esso(as it was known in India) had by 1961 imported the first commercial computer into India. The venerable IBM 1620 at IIT Kanpur arrived a few months later.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby A Nandy » 10 Feb 2019 12:01

Train 18 arriving at Varanasi on Feb 2nd. Damn it looks good!


Feb 15th is D-Day apparently.

I wonder if they can double the number of coaches easily, given that the coaches are independently motorized. Given the perennial problems with getting tickets, capacity augmentation would soon be needed.

Platform sizes need not increase as the coaches are well connected with wide gangways already.

Also they should explore double decker designs for the same:
Image

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Rishi_Tri » 10 Feb 2019 21:03

A Nandy wrote:Train 18 arriving at Varanasi on Feb 2nd. Damn it looks good!


Feb 15th is D-Day apparently.

I wonder if they can double the number of coaches easily, given that the coaches are independently motorized. Given the perennial problems with getting tickets, capacity augmentation would soon be needed.

Platform sizes need not increase as the coaches are well connected with wide gangways already.



16 coaches... the people sitting as the train arrived were doing what? checking the brakes, suspension, traction equipment?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby suryag » 10 Feb 2019 21:11

Btw why is it’s mouth open ? I have seen that it is open on most of the trial videos

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Supratik » 10 Feb 2019 22:50

It is undergoing trials. Need to be hauled if there is a breakdown.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Supratik » 11 Feb 2019 00:34

Construction of Jiribam-Imphal railway line.

https://youtu.be/MMDPZtp4d-Y

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby suryag » 11 Feb 2019 12:58

Vsunder garu and other knowledgeable people, i tried searching for the reason behind India staying on Broad Gauge instead of Standard Gauge, couldnt find the reason, would you be able to throw some light on this ?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 11 Feb 2019 14:01

suryag wrote:Vsunder garu and other knowledgeable people, i tried searching for the reason behind India staying on Broad Gauge instead of Standard Gauge, couldnt find the reason, would you be able to throw some light on this ?


Suryagji, try going through this blog- 2ndLook. had quite a bit of the railway history.

This and a bit more. As far as I remember reading somewhere, the Indian Railway project was financed by bonds to British subjects underwritten by Indian taxes,
In the mid-1880s, various lines were built supposedly to relieve famine, though they were a remarkably inefficient way of doing so. The Bengal-Nagpur line, for example, was built with funds from the Rothschild family but the British government decided that their guaranteed profits should be paid by an extra tax on the local peasantry. Consequently, the profits accrued by the richest family on earth were being provided from a group that was certainly among the poorest. You could not make it up.
How Britain’s Colonial Railways Transformed India


... and award of contracts to various 'favoured' parties meant India ended up with 17 odd different gauges around Independence. It was case of gross mismanagement with several different companies with their own sets of rules. India was starved technologically from developing its own Railway Technology.
Racism combined with British economic interests to undermine efficiency. The railway workshops in Jamalpur in Bengal and Ajmer in Rajputana were established in 1862 to maintain the trains, but their Indian mechanics became so adept that in 1878 they started designing and building their own locomotives. Their success increasingly alarmed the British, since the Indian locomotives were just as good, and a great deal cheaper, than the British-made ones. In 1912, therefore, the British passed an act of parliament explicitly making it impossible for Indian workshops to design and manufacture locomotives. Between 1854 and 1947, India imported around 14,400 locomotives from England, and another 3,000 from Canada, the US and Germany, but made none in India after 1912. After independence, 35 years later, the old technical knowledge was so completely lost to India that the Indian Railways had to go cap-in-hand to the British to guide them on setting up a locomotive factory in India again.
The Guardian -'But what about the railways ...?' ​​The myth of Britain's gifts to India

Only post independence did Indian railways go about nationalization to consolidate and settle on a standard broad gauge.

If you have time go through this paper.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 11 Feb 2019 14:07

Ultimately it was economics, but I believe that the broad gauge had advantages in freight transport. This is the storyof teh genesis of different gauges in Indian railways:

The initial trunk lines were constructed on the standard gauge of 5 feet 6 inches, which
was wider than the standard gauge of 4 feet 8 inches employed in much of the United States
and Britain. When Indian railways were constructed, the engineering community in Britain
favored the broad gauge because it was believed to lower the cost of operating high-volume
railways (Puffert 2010). Opinions changed by the 1870s and engineers began advocating the
metre gauge (3 feet 3
¾
inches), which was cheaper to build. The GOI favored the metre
gauge for feeder lines connecting to the main trunk lines. New metre gauge systems were
also constructed such as the Rajputana Malwa system in the northwest. By 1900, the metre
gauge lines comprised 41% of the network compared to 56% on the Indian standard gauge.
In yet another break of gauge, many of the small branch lines connecting to the main network
in the twentieth century were constructed on narrow gauges (i.e., less than 3 feet).
The initial gauge choice and subsequent break of gauge generated heated debates among
the different constituent groups. While it was recognized that a break of gauge was un-
desirable in many respects, the cheaper construction costs of the metre gauge won out.
The long-term economic implications of the mixed gauge network, especially the costs of
inter-connection, are believed to have been significant, but more research is needed before a
definitive statement can be made.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby arshyam » 11 Feb 2019 14:15

The reason was simple, really. At the time of independence, BG, MG and two types of NG existed. Converting everything to SG was a waste of resources: since BG offerred more capacity, no point in deliberately going to the smaller SG, and if converting from MG, might as well go the whole distance to BG and take advantage of standardisation. I too am not clear on why BG was originally chosen for the first line from Bori Bunder to Thane - GIPR could have simply gone with what existed in England then (which had multiple gauges too, but I don't know for sure). Maybe vsunder saar could shed some light on this?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Kashi » 11 Feb 2019 15:34

I read somewhere that BG was the legacy of Dalhousie, who was the Gov-Gen when railways were first set up and he happened to be from Scotland, where BG lines were in use. Mandating the new railway lines in India be BG, ensured steady contracts and profits for his "associates" back in Scotland.

Maybe vsunderji can shed more light on this.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Feb 2019 15:43

I think it was Scotsman who deceided to use the Gauges used in Scotland which were 5 ft 8 in to India.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Singha » 11 Feb 2019 16:56

the indian railway drivers and assistants of that era were allegedly 101% Scot. some of them via anglo indian lineage continued to serve in railways until finally the next gen mostly migrated to uk/canada/aus using their english grandparents id proofs! (those days anyone purely desi did not stand much of a chance just walking in there, still does not....but at some points canada and aus must have offered free immi to "white" people of english ancestry)..this free for all destroyed the anglo indian community in india as most of the young people left.

some of the ex IR veterans settled near ranchi, we all know it http://blog.railyatri.in/mccluskieganj- ... -of-india/
i think there was one more such town, forgot its name Mcleodganj?

Image

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Mollick.R » 11 Feb 2019 18:01

Train 18's Delhi-Varanasi AC chair car ticket to cost Rs 1,850, executive class Rs 3,520

BY PTI | FEB 11, 2019, 04.10 PM IST NEW DELHI: Vande Bharat Express or Train 18's air conditioned chair car ticket would cost Rs 1,850 and the executive class fare will be Rs 3,520 for a Delhi to Varanasi trip, including the catering service charges, officials told PTI Monday.

On its return journey, the chair car ticket will cost Rs 1,795 and the executive car ticket will be priced at Rs 3,470, they said.

While the chair car fares are 1.5 times the price of Shatabdi trains running the same distance, the executive class fares are 1.4 times of first class air conditioned seating in the premium train, the official sources said. The semi-high speed train is scheduled to be flagged off by Prime Minister Narendra Modi on February 15.

The train has two classes of tickets -- executive class and chair car -- and will have differently priced meals, the sources said. While passengers travelling from New Delhi to Varanasi in the executive class will be charged Rs 399 for morning tea, breakfast and lunch, travellers in the chair car will need to pay Rs 344 for the same.

Those travelling from New Delhi to Kanpur and Prayagraj will have to pay Rs 155 and Rs 122 for executive class and chair car, respectively. From Varanasi to New Delhi, the passengers will be charged Rs 349 and Rs 288 in the executive class and chair, respectively.


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/train-18s-delhi-varanasi-ac-chair-car-ticket-to-cost-rs-1850-executive-class-rs-3520/printarticle/67943109.cms

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby rajkumar » 11 Feb 2019 22:03

[quote="Mollick.R"]Train 18's Delhi-Varanasi AC chair car ticket to cost Rs 1,850, executive class Rs 3,520

So how does this compare to DEL-VNS flight prices?

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby vsunder » 11 Feb 2019 23:09

Kashi wrote:I read somewhere that BG was the legacy of Dalhousie, who was the Gov-Gen when railways were first set up and he happened to be from Scotland, where BG lines were in use. Mandating the new railway lines in India be BG, ensured steady contracts and profits for his "associates" back in Scotland.

Maybe vsunderji can shed more light on this.


Yes, this is one of the reasons I have heard of the choice of gauge. Isambard Brunel the famous engineer built a railway with a 7ft 1/4 " gauge. Dalhousie had seen the Broad gauge in Scotland (where he was from)(in particular this railway)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundee_an ... th_Railway

and so realized that the BG was a nice compromise between the high cost but increased stability of Brunel's gauge and the standard gauge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel

Another reason I have heard is that Britain was always very scared of the Russians coming down from Afghanistan and acquiring a warm water port. This drove their Central Asian policy and meddling in Afghanistan. To prevent the Russians from using their rolling stock on IR, the British adopted a gauge different from gauges in use in Russia. Curiously the Russians themselves relied on an exact 5ft gauge to prevent continental powers like Germany which had standard gauge to use their rolling stock on Russian railways.

There is a very nice observation by a person called John Mitchell, who wrote a book that is long out of print. I have a copy of this book "The Wheels of Ind". Mitchell was appointed something akin to a DRM, on the old BNR(Bengal Nagpur Railway) now SERC at Bilaspur. He mentions getting down from his ship and boarding the train at CSTM in the early 1920's to travel to Bilaspur and being impressed with the width of his carriage which he attributes to the "foresight of the builders" which imparted "space and stability to the carriage" due to the wide gauge of 5'6".

I do not think there was one compelling reason for the choice of gauge. but a host of factors contributed to the choice. There was an engineer named Simms who was tasked with deciding what gauge to select and submit the report to Dalhousie.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby Suraj » 11 Feb 2019 23:19

Singha wrote:the indian railway drivers and assistants of that era were allegedly 101% Scot. some of them via anglo indian lineage continued to serve in railways until finally the next gen mostly migrated to uk/canada/aus using their english grandparents id proofs! (those days anyone purely desi did not stand much of a chance just walking in there, still does not...

The details are a little more specific. The critical part is the 'being born in UK' part. If you have a parent born in UK, depending on the year of birth , it gains you UK nationality, or ability to acquire it freely. I know because I fit into one of those categories, something I didn't know until I found out by accident some years ago. On the other hand, Aus did of course specifically encourage white British migration especially post WW2, aka 'Ten Pound Poms'.

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Re: Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 Feb 2019 15:54

Supratik wrote:Good. It is going to be "Vande Bharat" express "across the country".
:twisted:


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