Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
thats what we did with astra, using a agat seeker and some ideas initially from matra530 chassis before redesigning into the current leaner chassis losing the midbody fins.
akash took off from SA6.
akash took off from SA6.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
That's more of an INSAS type approach, where we pick and choose best from all systems we already have. A lot different then cloning/buying an existing system to leapfrog existing capabilities, although easier said then done.Singha wrote:thats what we did with astra, using a agat seeker and some ideas initially from matra530 chassis before redesigning into the current leaner chassis losing the midbody fins.
akash took off from SA6.
I am not even sure why we suddenly started a love affair for ASRAAM, what's wrong with R-73, or Python etc etc, or even asking for an AAM development while R-73 stockpiles are still air-worthy.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Let me guess as an arm chair critic here.
1) R73 seeker is pretty old and countermeasures have been developed, software and hardware , electronics needs a serious upgrade.
2) Python 5 has too many control surfaces. Israelis probably mix and match with Aim9x and the IAF probably had a look and want to go with a missile which uses the same seeker as the Aim9x but with a body with lesser control surfaces. Asraam is probably less manvourable but longer range than python 5.
1) R73 seeker is pretty old and countermeasures have been developed, software and hardware , electronics needs a serious upgrade.
2) Python 5 has too many control surfaces. Israelis probably mix and match with Aim9x and the IAF probably had a look and want to go with a missile which uses the same seeker as the Aim9x but with a body with lesser control surfaces. Asraam is probably less manvourable but longer range than python 5.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
I think there were issues in integrating P5 with LCA...excess vibration as the speeds approached M1. I guess the manufacturer did not extend sufficient help in resolving this and IAF thought better to go with a missile with equal capabilities but with less complexity.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
ASRAAM has lower weight , FPA seeker , high agility specially off bore sight due to use to tvc and as long as energy remains it is very agile , LOAL/LOBL capability.
The lower weight is a big advantage if you have to carry on over head wing pylon of Jags and outer pylon of Tejas , Python had integration issue with Tejas flutter issue which could not be solved.
The lower weight is a big advantage if you have to carry on over head wing pylon of Jags and outer pylon of Tejas , Python had integration issue with Tejas flutter issue which could not be solved.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
But this ASRAAM deal may be intended for fleet wide replacement, probably a standard SRAAM for next 3 decades. That’s a huge deal.
Basically it “may” replace MICA IR, R-73, and R-60. MICA is a recent purchase, not sure if R-60 is still in use.
After Astra why take a step back and screw ourself on such a large scale?
Basically it “may” replace MICA IR, R-73, and R-60. MICA is a recent purchase, not sure if R-60 is still in use.
After Astra why take a step back and screw ourself on such a large scale?
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Astra is a BVRAAM. Asraam is a SRAAM. We don't have any SRAAM under development. It should not impact any DRDO programs.Sid wrote:But this ASRAAM deal may be intended for fleet wide replacement, probably a standard SRAAM for next 3 decades. That’s a huge deal.
Basically it “may” replace MICA IR, R-73, and R-60. MICA is a recent purchase, not sure if R-60 is still in use.
After Astra why take a step back and screw ourself on such a large scale?
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
I expect we will go for both Aim-132 and Python.
Like we will have every BVR under the sun..
"Fleet wide" news would be to play off Rafael and MDBA.
Like we will have every BVR under the sun..
"Fleet wide" news would be to play off Rafael and MDBA.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
All this speculation about asraam induction is just speculation and nothing else. Both Mig 29 and su 30 are essentially twinned with R-73 including off boresight and hmcs capabilities. I doubt any other missile can even leverage both mig 29 and su-30 capabilities including thrust vectoring and cobra maneuver as well as R-73. If anyways you have to replace R-73, you do it by an advanced version of R 73.
Only a pencil pusher can suggest something like this. Does asraam even has any combat experience to speak off?
Only a pencil pusher can suggest something like this. Does asraam even has any combat experience to speak off?
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Darshhan, you are mistaken about several points. Please read this to understand the ASRAAM better.
http://www.ausairpower.net/API-ASRAAM-Analysis.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/API-ASRAAM-Analysis.html
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
There is no questioning the quality of ASRAAM. But, this is a windfall for MBDA. Whole of IAF fleet would mean a few thousand of these missiles.We are speaking of billions of dollars worth of missiles.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
I guess the shifting of MBDA ASRAAM manufacturing in India will be part of Rafale offsets. So the windfall is just a part of a big picture...
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
They wont replace the entire fleet with ASRAAM but keep a mix of ASRAAM , Python 4/5 , R-73 ,MICA ...They are just broadening the WVR/BVR weapon that an aircraft can carry which is helpful if you want to deploy your aircraft at multiple bases.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
do we have any python4/5? so far I have not heard of anything but the derby (earlier for sea harriers and now for the upg Jags with el2052).
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Python V's have definitely been Test fired a few times as part of the Spyder air defence system, Python IV was intergrated with the Sea Harrier fleet, there has been official mention by ADA about trying to integrate Python V at Aero India but unofficial news from livefest that Python V failed flutter tests.
Here is an ADA Document from 2016 which talks about Python 5 as CCM
https://www.ada.gov.in/images/Annual%20 ... 015-16.pdf
Here is an ADA Document from 2016 which talks about Python 5 as CCM
https://www.ada.gov.in/images/Annual%20 ... 015-16.pdf
Tejas Fighter FOC System development for integrating additional weapons package for FOC and further envelope expansion (High AOA and Nz) has been initiated. Derby Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile and Python-5 Close Combat Missile (CCM) were integrated on Tejas aircraft. Carriage trials were conducted with the missile. One Derby BVR missile was fired in the unguided mode, successfully over the sea at an altitude of 30000 ft & 0.8 mach to study separation and plume characteristics. Python-5 CCM was not fired as vibrations were experienced at 0.9 mach. Analysis of test results is in progress. Integration of Air to Air Fuel Refuelling system on Tejas aircraft is in progress. Advanced autopilot modes have been designed and are planned to be flighttested. Novel auto recovery modes like Automatic Low Speed Recovery and Disorientation Recovery Mode will also be flight tested towards attaining Carefree Maneuvering capability.
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 109
- Joined: 14 Dec 2010 23:17
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Equally importantin the Livefist article, I feel, is the mention that India is exploring the acquisition of the Brimstone. While it talks about it only for the Hawk, it is something I would love to see being employed with the Tejas and Jags, which would be tasked with most of the CAS and BAI missions, and for which the missile is particularly suited.
Though we have the homegrown SANT in the pipeline, which does pretty much the same job, its induction could be many years away.
Though we have the homegrown SANT in the pipeline, which does pretty much the same job, its induction could be many years away.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
How difficult is it going to be to integrate the ASRAAM with the multiple different Helmet mounted sights in use in the IAF? DASH on Tejas, the Russian one (Shchel-3UM?) in the Mig-29 and Su-30., Thales Topsight in M2k, etc. I guess, since we are probably getting the MICA-IR with the M2k upgrade, we won't be integrating the ASRAAM in the M2k fleet.Karan M wrote:Darshhan, you are mistaken about several points. Please read this to understand the ASRAAM better.
http://www.ausairpower.net/API-ASRAAM-Analysis.html
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Austin Good points on differences in control between the two missiles.
I think if several thousand short range are procured local production will happen.
I think if several thousand short range are procured local production will happen.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Some time it appears to me that the users of the Indian armed forces are a people just like us on the BRF. Just as we all have our biases regarding different weapons for specific circumstances. So do the users. The only difference is that the users have a say in actually getting the MOD to pay for the purchase. While we at the BRF don't have the pull to compell the MOD.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Plus they have trained and used these missiles in real life and maintained them.Pratyush wrote:Some time it appears to me that the users of the Indian armed forces are a people just like us on the BRF. Just as we all have our biases regarding different weapons for specific circumstances. So do the users. The only difference is that the users have a say in actually getting the MOD to pay for the purchase. While we at the BRF don't have the pull to compell the MOD.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
It is going to be tough for PLAAF to figure out which missile is coming up their pipes and whether to fling out chaff or flare or pilot
Entire world of missiles is there with IAF. As long as they can maintain fighting stocks, more Power to them. Will be a nightmare to provision counter measures
Entire world of missiles is there with IAF. As long as they can maintain fighting stocks, more Power to them. Will be a nightmare to provision counter measures
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
hnair wrote:It is going to be tough for PLAAF to figure out which missile is coming up their pipes and whether to fling out chaff or flare or pilot
s
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
2000 km range missile test scheduled from ITR on Feb 12/14 ,
https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1093448706345512961
https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1093448706345512961
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 6100583424
DRDO testfires #Helina successfully. Another test likely today.
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 4057
- Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
numbers sir numbers..when it comes to AF, they can throw numbers like us. That's why astra needs to be opertionalized fast and in huge numbers.hnair wrote:It is going to be tough for PLAAF to figure out which missile is coming up their pipes and whether to fling out chaff or flare or pilot
Entire world of missiles is there with IAF. As long as they can maintain fighting stocks, more Power to them. Will be a nightmare to provision counter measures
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
No idea where you are going with this, because that was not what I am talking about. I am talking about challenges a PLAAF ESM will face from myriad AAMs in IAF inventory, before an ECM or IRCM solution is reached.ArjunPandit wrote: numbers sir numbers..when it comes to AF, they can throw numbers like us. That's why astra needs to be opertionalized fast and in huge numbers.
As for your point, If you have 10000 missiles of same type, which will all droop down off an intercept trajectory when hit by successful countermeasures, word will go back to base on what need to be done as a CM. So Astra in huge numbers that can be CMed is not the answer. Astra with differing sensors that can be rapidly reprogrammed might be. But “huge numbers” work against such repurposing during war time.
So on so forth...
-
- BRFite
- Posts: 872
- Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
BREAKING: New Indian missile tech breaks cover — @DRDO_India tests solid-fuel ducted ramjet (SFDR) propelled system from Odisha coast. Will be applied in new air-to-air missile system.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/109 ... 73665?s=19
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/109 ... 73665?s=19
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 4057
- Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
one striking thing about SFDR is the time it took to develop. Dont think actual work has been done in more than 3-4 years when either of ramana/jays/indranil posted the launcher rail. Even the Last test (partially successful as per manu pubby) was in last may onlyashishvikas wrote:BREAKING: New Indian missile tech breaks cover — @DRDO_India tests solid-fuel ducted ramjet (SFDR) propelled system from Odisha coast. Will be applied in new air-to-air missile system.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/109 ... 73665?s=19
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 4057
- Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
hate to do this on the day sfdr has been successfully tested, but still
US in talks with India over missile defence collaboration: Pentagon
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 897167.cms
Another fishing hook to check where india is
US in talks with India over missile defence collaboration: Pentagon
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 897167.cms
Another fishing hook to check where india is
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Mashallah, second test.
Few more test and MDBA will find that since Mirage was sold to Israel, makes it an "major non-NATO French ally" and providing overnight compatibility of EL 2032/2052 radar with Meteor.
Of course Su30 should not be a problem as well, given WW1 & WW2 alliance between France & Russia.
Few more test and MDBA will find that since Mirage was sold to Israel, makes it an "major non-NATO French ally" and providing overnight compatibility of EL 2032/2052 radar with Meteor.
Of course Su30 should not be a problem as well, given WW1 & WW2 alliance between France & Russia.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Inshallah!!!...couldn't stop laughingnam wrote:Mashallah, second test.
Few more test and MDBA will find that since Mirage was sold to Israel, makes it an "major non-NATO French ally" and providing overnight compatibility of EL 2032/2052 radar with Meteor.
Of course Su30 should not be a problem as well, given WW1 & WW2 alliance between France & Russia.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
hahahahaha....too good !!nam wrote:Mashallah, second test.
Few more test and MDBA will find that since Mirage was sold to Israel, makes it an "major non-NATO French ally" and providing overnight compatibility of EL 2032/2052 radar with Meteor.
Of course Su30 should not be a problem as well, given WW1 & WW2 alliance between France & Russia.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
I can live with Meteor for now since we are still another 5-10 years for A2A missile to reach testing phasenam wrote:Mashallah, second test.
Few more test and MDBA will find that since Mirage was sold to Israel, makes it an "major non-NATO French ally" and providing overnight compatibility of EL 2032/2052 radar with Meteor.
Of course Su30 should not be a problem as well, given WW1 & WW2 alliance between France & Russia.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
AS happy as I am with this tests, I am not sure if the ramjet was employed or not.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Nozzle less Booster test . Created conditions for ramjet. Ramjet was not tested.Indranil wrote:AS happy as I am with this tests, I am not sure if the ramjet was employed or not.
Big stepping stone.
The press release specifically say "paves the way for long range air to air missile."
Edit: Saurav jha says sustainer tested as well. So may have to wait for more details.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
On the SFDR
India Successfully Tests Supersonic Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet Propelled Missile
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/0 ... d-missile/
India Successfully Tests Supersonic Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet Propelled Missile
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/0 ... d-missile/
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
Same thought here. Official PIB report indicates the tests wer not meant to validate the ramjet motor. But that doesnt mean they were not fired. Its only logical to fire the ramjet once validation of the internal booster is completed. A preliminary test when you have nothing to lose.Indranil wrote:AS happy as I am with this tests, I am not sure if the ramjet was employed or not.
DDR article indicates the ramjet motor was fired at M3 speed sustained. But DRDO Annual Report mentioned speed of 2.3-2.5M for the missile. We may have to wait a bit to get clear idea.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1093886707970101248 ---> All that India needs is a good AESA seeker for the yet-to-be-named solid fuel ducted ramjet missile that was tested earlier today, and all this consternation about whether the Meteor BVRAAM can be integrated with an Israeli-origin radar on the Tejas will become moot.
Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018
High resolution image of the test from PIB