Small Arms Thread

chola
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby chola » 14 Feb 2019 15:27

darshhan wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:I feel like crying.....


Are these tears of joy?


Tears of joy over the complete papering over of our small arms industry? Going to the AK-103 and 7.62 will erase whatever legacy we had from the INSAS endeavor.

Was INSAS so bad that we cannot improve or rechamber in a second generation? My god, even for rifles we must go gora it seems.

Firearms had been around for centuries and the standard firing mechanism had pretty much been the same for the past 100 years. I REFUSE to believe that a phoren rifle (unlike a ship or aircraft) can be that much better than anything domestic.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby gaurav.p » 14 Feb 2019 15:48

chola wrote:Tears of joy over the complete papering over of our small arms industry? Going to the AK-103 and 7.62 will erase whatever legacy we had from the INSAS endeavor.

Was INSAS so bad that we cannot improve or rechamber in a second generation? My god, even for rifles we must go gora it seems.

Firearms had been around for centuries and the standard firing mechanism had pretty much been the same for the past 100 years. I REFUSE to believe that a phoren rifle (unlike a ship or aircraft) can be that much better than anything domestic.


+108! The gora label and the bias for indian products seeps through. OFB is already a lost cause in the eyes of the armed forces. So, going for partnership is the last salvaging that can bring peace compared to complete import.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bart S » 14 Feb 2019 15:50

How is 7.62x39 even a choice for regular infantry (or anything other than CI ops and perhaps central police/paramilitary forces)?

The round is really inaccurate over anything but short distances and reduces the volume of ammunition that an individual infantry man can carry, and the Russians themselves moved away from using it decades ago.

This is mind boggling to say the least, and with 7 lakh of them we will be stuck with them for a while.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bart S » 14 Feb 2019 16:01

chola wrote:Firearms had been around for centuries and the standard firing mechanism had pretty much been the same for the past 100 years. I REFUSE to believe that a phoren rifle (unlike a ship or aircraft) can be that much better than anything domestic.


Problem in this specific case (small arms) is not domestic industry but OFB. Since successive govts including the current one seem to be inclined to appease OFB rather than revamp/reform/privatize it or at least give private players a fair shot at the market, we are reduced to operating at the level of whatever that socialist hellhole can manage.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 14 Feb 2019 16:10


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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Feb 2019 16:13

gaurav.p wrote:
chola wrote:Tears of joy over the complete papering over of our small arms industry? Going to the AK-103 and 7.62 will erase whatever legacy we had from the INSAS endeavor.

Was INSAS so bad that we cannot improve or rechamber in a second generation? My god, even for rifles we must go gora it seems.

Firearms had been around for centuries and the standard firing mechanism had pretty much been the same for the past 100 years. I REFUSE to believe that a phoren rifle (unlike a ship or aircraft) can be that much better than anything domestic.


+108! The gora label and the bias for indian products seeps through. OFB is already a lost cause in the eyes of the armed forces. So, going for partnership is the last salvaging that can bring peace compared to complete import.

Good god..
Have you guys actually read my posts in this thread or are you generally in the habit of speaking before thinking..
I won’t dignify your posts with a response.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby chola » 14 Feb 2019 16:16

Bart S wrote:
chola wrote:Firearms had been around for centuries and the standard firing mechanism had pretty much been the same for the past 100 years. I REFUSE to believe that a phoren rifle (unlike a ship or aircraft) can be that much better than anything domestic.


Problem in this specific case (small arms) is not domestic industry but OFB. Since successive govts including the current one seem to be inclined to appease OFB rather than revamp/reform/privatize it or at least give private players a fair shot at the market, we are reduced to operating at the level of whatever that socialist hellhole can manage.


Understood. But it is the same with the PSUs in our ship and aircraft manufacturing industry. Whether private or government, it is our industry.

You are right though. We need to reform and bring in the private sector. The treasure going to Russia or whatever phoren actor, though, should be used to revamp OFB or to entice and create a private sector entry.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 14 Feb 2019 16:52

Bart S wrote:How is 7.62x39 even a choice for regular infantry (or anything other than CI ops and perhaps central police/paramilitary forces)?

The round is really inaccurate over anything but short distances and reduces the volume of ammunition that an individual infantry man can carry, and the Russians themselves moved away from using it decades ago.

This is mind boggling to say the least, and with 7 lakh of them we will be stuck with them for a while.


Point is Indian Army is really comfortable with AK platform and will always welcome it. None of the Army guys I have spoken to has anything negative to say about it. As far as range is concerned isn't Indian Army fighting LOC skirmishes with the very same AK. If AK is sufficient there, it should be sufficient for most of the conventional operations. Plus even AK platform has seen substantial evolution since 1947.

As far as individual carriage of ammunition is concerned, the saving grace is that with 7.62x51 caliber cartridge, you could carry even less.Plus Indian Army is not the spray and Pray kind rather it emphasizes aim and shoot.

Although more than AK, I like PKM machine gun concept.

As far as Insas is concerned, it has been mostly reduced to ceremonial, training and Guard duties. Although most of the soldiers that I have spoken too are not critical about its performance, contrary to the disparaging reports written about in media. Sure the workmanship is awful and some flaws might be present but soldiers are by and large ok with it. It is also accurate.

So the only conclusion I can derive from its gradual sidelining is that IA does not deem its caliber ok for current and future conflicts.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bart S » 14 Feb 2019 17:03

darshhan wrote:
Bart S wrote:How is 7.62x39 even a choice for regular infantry (or anything other than CI ops and perhaps central police/paramilitary forces)?

The round is really inaccurate over anything but short distances and reduces the volume of ammunition that an individual infantry man can carry, and the Russians themselves moved away from using it decades ago.

This is mind boggling to say the least, and with 7 lakh of them we will be stuck with them for a while.


Point is Indian Army is really comfortable with AK platform and will always welcome it. None of the Army guys I have spoken to has anything negative to say about it. As far as range is concerned isn't Indian Army fighting LOC skirmishes with the very same AK. If AK is sufficient there, it should be sufficient for most of the conventional operations. Plus even AK platform has seen substantial evolution since 1947.

As far as individual carriage of ammunition is concerned, the saving grace is that with 7.62x51 caliber cartridge, you could carry even less.Plus Indian Army is not the spray and Pray kind rather it emphasizes aim and shoot.

Although more than AK, I like PKM machine gun concept.


Yes, the PKM is superb. The AK series themselves themselves have strong merits.

My issue is with adopting 7.62x39 - they could just as easily have gone for the AK 101 which is the same gun chambered to fire the standard NATO round. If the ballistic characteristics of the gun are not great over distances that might apply to conventional infantry battles, it also limits the future utility if/when good quality sights etc are more commonly available to all infantry soldiers in the future.

I don't think we can read too much into the LOC skirmishes because there is a wide mix of ranges and guns that apply there. The CI troops and paramilitary seem to be happy with it, and that makes sense because of its reliability even under less than careful usage and the stopping power of the ammo at short ranges. But even there a mix of guns is used and the latest purchase of the Sigs seem to be for RR requirement as well.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 14 Feb 2019 18:44

Bart S wrote:
darshhan wrote:
Point is Indian Army is really comfortable with AK platform and will always welcome it. None of the Army guys I have spoken to has anything negative to say about it. As far as range is concerned isn't Indian Army fighting LOC skirmishes with the very same AK. If AK is sufficient there, it should be sufficient for most of the conventional operations. Plus even AK platform has seen substantial evolution since 1947.

As far as individual carriage of ammunition is concerned, the saving grace is that with 7.62x51 caliber cartridge, you could carry even less.Plus Indian Army is not the spray and Pray kind rather it emphasizes aim and shoot.

Although more than AK, I like PKM machine gun concept.


Yes, the PKM is superb. The AK series themselves themselves have strong merits.

My issue is with adopting 7.62x39 - they could just as easily have gone for the AK 101 which is the same gun chambered to fire the standard NATO round. If the ballistic characteristics of the gun are not great over distances that might apply to conventional infantry battles, it also limits the future utility if/when good quality sights etc are more commonly available to all infantry soldiers in the future.

I don't think we can read too much into the LOC skirmishes because there is a wide mix of ranges and guns that apply there. The CI troops and paramilitary seem to be happy with it, and that makes sense because of its reliability even under less than careful usage and the stopping power of the ammo at short ranges. But even there a mix of guns is used and the latest purchase of the Sigs seem to be for RR requirement as well.


Bart, That is the point. IA does not think NATO 5.56 round is good enough for current and future conflicts. And why just IA. Even NATO armies themselves are not convinced of 5.56 round anymore.

If they wanted 5.56, they could have simply gone for some version of upgraded INSAS that is. Trust me for all the negative reports about Insas, it is not that bad.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 14 Feb 2019 19:46

I would wait a few days/week for official confirmation of the type of rifle that is going to be manufactured in the plant. No official sources named AK103/203 yet.
Only confirmation we have is it will be based on AK103. That could be 203/308/even 15.
I will lose my faith in IA Top brass if it is 203 (yes I know! I am still green!), cz I am not very fond of vanilla AKs and do not think any respectable land force should use it from 2018.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby abhik » 14 Feb 2019 19:48

Austin wrote:More Details on AK deal by Sandeep

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 6395367424


Good find, the government (past and present) are not trying to appease the OFB "unions" (as people constantly rant here), rather they are trying to appease the voters in their constituents.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 15 Feb 2019 00:53

souravB wrote:I would wait a few days/week for official confirmation of the type of rifle that is going to be manufactured in the plant. No official sources named AK103/203 yet.
Only confirmation we have is it will be based on AK103. That could be 203/308/even 15.
I will lose my faith in IA Top brass if it is 203 (yes I know! I am still green!), cz I am not very fond of vanilla AKs and do not think any respectable land force should use it from 2018.

No it is not going to be AK 308. I haven't seen AK308 mentioned anywhere but on this thread. There was also a news report specifically mentioning that these rifles are not he Ak-12/15 which are more sophisticated and different from the vanilla Ak-103/203 in significant ways. Sometimes, we can take the media reports at face value. Like in this case.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby nachiket » 15 Feb 2019 00:57

I don't think the IA even tried to see if the INSAS could be re-chambered for 7.62x39mm and how long it would take for the DRDO to come up with a 7.62x39mm version of the INSAS. They went from asking for a multi-caliber weapons (the procurement for which went nowhere thanks to the GSQR which no weapon could meet) to suddenly deciding that they would re-arm the entire infantry arm with AKs.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sivab » 15 Feb 2019 01:23

https://ria.ru/20190124/1549790346.html

Concern Director Vladimir Dmitriev, in an interview with RIA Novosti and the newspaper Kommersant, spoke about the implementation of the state defense order in 2018, new developments in the interests of the military, the first export contract for the supply of AK-12, the search for new partners to replace the lost American small arms market, and also about assets that "Kalashnikov" acquired.

...

How are things with your joint venture with the Indian Ordnance Factory Board?
- Literally in the last days of 2018, our specialists once again went to Delhi for negotiations. I personally met representatives from the Indian side, Rostec, Rosoboronexport and FSMTC, we are really discussing the potential production of a Kalashnikov assault rifle in India. By the end of January 2019, we must formulate the main parameters of this plant. It should be understood that the Indians are already producing a product that they have mastered on their own; we are, in fact, invited first of all in order to improve the quality.

They all sit on your old Kalash.
- In the process of negotiations, we explained that over the past 50 years, the Kalashnikov assault rifle, to put it mildly, has changed, we also have new modifications, more interesting, and, most likely, we will come to the conclusion that we will change the product that has been put troops. This will not be the AK of the 100th series, it will be similar to the AK-203, that is, a much more technically advanced product. As far as we know, this suits the Ministry of Defense, and the production side is also ready, it will be somewhat more expensive, but, in my opinion, this is the case when the price is justified.


Seems OFB invited Klashnikov to improve quality of indian made AK, but they are trying to sell Ak-203 changes at higher cost. They probably succeeded.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2019 05:07

nachiket wrote:I don't think the IA even tried to see if the INSAS could be re-chambered for 7.62x39mm and how long it would take for the DRDO to come up with a 7.62x39mm version of the INSAS. They went from asking for a multi-caliber weapons (the procurement for which went nowhere thanks to the GSQR which no weapon could meet) to suddenly deciding that they would re-arm the entire infantry arm with AKs.


I know its frutrating but the logic appears to be this.
Facts:
- INSAS 5.56 round not good enough. Need to kill the enemy dead.
- RR battalions use AK 47 and it shows its adequate.
- NATO 7.62 mm. Not going to go back for the Army as its overkill and logistics issues.
- Can't rely on DRDO/OFB combine as their products are research projects.

Way forward
- Buy the 72k SIG rifles in NATO cartridge for counter terror ops. Kills them dead.
- Buy 650K AK derivative for rest of the troops.
In essence the army gets to phase out all of INSAS.
Now what does this do to the INSAS based LMG?
Will they go back to NATO cartridge LMG?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Feb 2019 06:24

Raman Sig is 7.62 Nato

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Katare » 15 Feb 2019 06:25

As per the standing committee of Parliament on defense report. New design of Insas 5.56 met all GSQR but army abruptly changed the requirement to 7.62. Not enough time for OFB to design a product.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2019 06:58

Katare wrote:As per the standing committee of Parliament on defense report. New design of Insas 5.56 met all GSQR but army abruptly changed the requirement to 7.62. Not enough time for OFB to design a product.



I know but Army realized 5.56mm is not enough for their threats.
Really should find out how the 5.56 was sold to them in first place in the early 1980s.
Yes commonality with the LMG , more ammo all that.

if I was in charge of Systems studies I would have a study on Kargil on how many rounds were fired to kill a NLI soldier and what was the effectiveness of the INSA system rifle and LMG.
Unfortunately we don't have access to the Army journals which they read for themselves.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 15 Feb 2019 09:55

A gent who is ex service informed 7.62×51mm has too much of recoil for a regular soldier to carry and 5.56 is less effective with BP widely available , 7.62x39 is a compromise between the too.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Feb 2019 09:58

Austin wrote:A gent who is ex service informed 7.62×51mm has too much of recoil for a regular soldier to carry and 5.56 is less effective with BP widely available , 7.62x39 is a compromise between the too.


5.56 is actually more effective against body armour due to higher velocity. In fact proliferation of body armour is what prompted Warpac shift to 5.45 as well.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Austin » 15 Feb 2019 10:02

Thakur_B wrote:
Austin wrote:A gent who is ex service informed 7.62×51mm has too much of recoil for a regular soldier to carry and 5.56 is less effective with BP widely available , 7.62x39 is a compromise between the too.


5.56 is actually more effective against body armour due to higher velocity. In fact proliferation of body armour is what prompted Warpac shift to 5.45 as well.


May be you are right , I am just stating what was told to me.

In the end it boils down to IA experience they must have fought with all caliber and different weapons across the service , some one mentioned AK is what the army has least complain about if one want to put it this way , So they are simply buying a better AK.

Some other armies in west might have different experience and might settle for 5.56 or other caliber

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 15 Feb 2019 11:19

Bart S wrote:

My issue is with adopting 7.62x39 - they could just as easily have gone for the AK 101 which is the same gun chambered to fire the standard NATO round. If the ballistic characteristics of the gun are not great over distances that might apply to conventional infantry battles, it also limits the future utility if/when good quality sights etc are more commonly available to all infantry soldiers in the future.
.


Bart ji, Ak101 had reliability issues. Ak208 is the improved 5.56 NATO weapon which has been launched alongside AK308.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Katare » 16 Feb 2019 03:11

ramana wrote:
Katare wrote:As per the standing committee of Parliament on defense report. New design of Insas 5.56 met all GSQR but army abruptly changed the requirement to 7.62. Not enough time for OFB to design a product.



I know but Army realized 5.56mm is not enough for their threats.
Really should find out how the 5.56 was sold to them in first place in the early 1980s.
Yes commonality with the LMG , more ammo all that.

if I was in charge of Systems studies I would have a study on Kargil on how many rounds were fired to kill a NLI soldier and what was the effectiveness of the INSA system rifle and LMG.
Unfortunately we don't have access to the Army journals which they read for themselves.


As for as i know Army wanted 5.5mm because it wounds enemy putting him out of action but also ties up multiple other enemy resources in casevac and caring for him. Brings moral down and what not.

The point I was trying to make is that army didn’t give anytime to OFB to come up with a competing solution for 7.62mm. Theykept changing requirements for a decade and than said its too late we need emergency purchase. Dore and case close. The writing on the wall is clear, we don’t want another desi product. You only get to produce to print with imported machines after foreign training.

Huge trust issues between these two organizations.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby darshhan » 16 Feb 2019 08:26

Thakur_B wrote:
Austin wrote:A gent who is ex service informed 7.62×51mm has too much of recoil for a regular soldier to carry and 5.56 is less effective with BP widely available , 7.62x39 is a compromise between the too.


5.56 is actually more effective against body armour due to higher velocity. In fact proliferation of body armour is what prompted Warpac shift to 5.45 as well.


I too have heard this but I seriously doubt it.And it is mostly Americans who make this claim. Kinetic energy of the 7.62x39 ak round is much more than 5.56 nato round. If the bullet type is same meaning whether it is standard FMJ or armor piercing steel core etc, AK 47 round will penetrate more and do more damage than 5.56.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Feb 2019 02:33

Why did the Russians move to 5.45?

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 17 Feb 2019 08:05

nachiket wrote:No it is not going to be AK 308. I haven't seen AK308 mentioned anywhere but on this thread. There was also a news report specifically mentioning that these rifles are not he Ak-12/15 which are more sophisticated and different from the vanilla Ak-103/203 in significant ways. Sometimes, we can take the media reports at face value. Like in this case.

Sir, apologies for late reply but there are int. media reports that point Russia has developed this rifle for exports esp to India. That is where the rumors come from since Russian forces do not require AKs in this caliber. Also if you see the video from 4:45 mins onwards, Onokoy is specifically saying South Asian country which release 7.62 NATO rifle tenders frequently.

There are some other tidbits of info too like Kalshnikov helping OFB to perfect its AK clones, Indian produced rifles will cost more and the rifle will be similar to AK203 and not exact AK203.
But these are all heresay right now and which why I said I'll wait for the official confirmation. Until then I'll reserve my judgement.

darshhan wrote:I too have heard this but I seriously doubt it.And it is mostly Americans who make this claim. Kinetic energy of the 7.62x39 ak round is much more than 5.56 nato round. If the bullet type is same meaning whether it is standard FMJ or armor piercing steel core etc, AK 47 round will penetrate more and do more damage than 5.56.

KE is a relative measure for a bullet tested over a fixed distance. It is proportional to both mass and velocity. It is linear in case of mass and exponential in case of velocity. Between a 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39, latter might be heavier by 1.5x but former is faster. For the standard NATO cartridge M855A1, a 5g bullet is used which by virtue of its superior velocity can have more KE than 7.62x39 at 100m and retains more for longer distances.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Neshant » 17 Feb 2019 16:40

Looks like total chaos with no program management & no long term planning.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Feb 2019 07:39

^^Hence I felt like crying...

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Thakur_B » 19 Feb 2019 11:22

Image

On a second look, this carbine looks promising. The pic is too low res to be sure, but looks like they have shifted to the upper / lower configuration like SiG 550 with amogh style charging handle and galil type rails and furniture.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Pratyush » 19 Feb 2019 12:12

The defence minister has to tell the forces no more imports.

Whatever you want release GSQR to domestic industry. Come what may all needs will be met by Indian industry.

Only then can such circus end.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby dnivas » 23 Feb 2019 02:57

^ agree completely.
[url]
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... epage=true[/url]

such a complete waste of billions of dollars.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2019 23:46


Bart S
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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bart S » 24 Feb 2019 01:31




Yes, if you are Arnold Schwarzenegger in a 80's action movie :wink:

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby manjgu » 24 Feb 2019 08:26

it said lightweight ( for a ship) weapon/arm

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby mody » 25 Feb 2019 14:51

Its really about the size of the bullets. If IA thinks that 7.62x39 is what they want, then AK series it is. There is nothing better then the AK-series for this caliber. The debate is really whether the choice of the caliber is good or not.

For the Chinese front, I would actually prefer to use the NATO 5.56 rounds. We can use the Excalibur/INSAS-MKIII for troops stationed on the LAC and the northeastern frontier, as well as the ITBP and Assam Rifles unit, not tasked with CI duties. Maybe 60-90K Excalibur can be procured.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ks_sachin » 25 Feb 2019 15:13

mody wrote:Its really about the size of the bullets. If IA thinks that 7.62x39 is what they want, then AK series it is. There is nothing better then the AK-series for this caliber. The debate is really whether the choice of the caliber is good or not.

For the Chinese front, I would actually prefer to use the NATO 5.56 rounds. We can use the Excalibur/INSAS-MKIII for troops stationed on the LAC and the northeastern frontier, as well as the ITBP and Assam Rifles unit, not tasked with CI duties. Maybe 60-90K Excalibur can be procured.

Sirji
This is what we have been saying in this thread.
Even in the western sector away from the CI grid 5.56 is good.
Let AK be issued to CI involved troops Inc RR.
At at a section level give 7.62 NATO as a DMR x 2 with rest of section on 5.56 NATO in reg inf bn.
Specialist sniper weapons and anti material weapons are held like MMG.
Now BRF has to take the lead with the same enthu as shown to missiles or the LCA or Arjun.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby souravB » 28 Feb 2019 21:25

Twitter Source

Giving impetus to #MakeInIndia
in defence.

Now, AK-203 Assault Rifles will be made in India by a joint venture between Russia’s Kalashnikov Concern and Ordnance Factory Board.

just leaving it out here for people who reined me in for expecting too much.
I concede I overestimated the capability of our babus to future gaze. I have egg on my face.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 28 Feb 2019 21:41

souravB wrote:Twitter Source

Giving impetus to #MakeInIndia
in defence.

Now, AK-203 Assault Rifles will be made in India by a joint venture between Russia’s Kalashnikov Concern and Ordnance Factory Board.

just leaving it out here for people who reined me in for expecting too much.
I concede I overestimated the capability of our babus to future gaze. I have egg on my face.


And the poor chaps at Ishapore can throw their hard work into the bin :roll: :roll: :roll: . But heck this Govt has done well so lets forget the little bugs and focus on the larger picture.

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Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jaysimha » 01 Mar 2019 17:38

repost.
Last edited by jaysimha on 01 Mar 2019 17:50, edited 1 time in total.


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