MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
The buck stops with the govt. of thd day.It CAN take emergency measures and purchases like the ammo buy not too long ago.G-2-G deals are swift and sure in general.It cuts out arms dealers fishing and vested interests within the services to an extent. The manner in which Mrs.G. Sam Manekshaw and co. severed Pak into two should be our handbook., bedside reading for the CCS members.
The whole MMRCA farce could've been avoided by greater intelligent focus vy the principal stakeholder, the GOI.They believed or were apathetic about the tall tales of the ADA/ HAL about the LCA with the program sneered at by the IAF for long.
The desperate talk about buying more MIG-29s, which should've been done a decade ago highlights the general incompetrnce of our defence planners, the lack of a grand strategy for Indian security and the failure of the political.elite to give national security its due.The share of GDP for defence has never been so low.The lead time for modernising and replacing obsolete eqpt. takes years with our torturous approval process.
Knee-jerk responses is the order of the day.
The whole MMRCA farce could've been avoided by greater intelligent focus vy the principal stakeholder, the GOI.They believed or were apathetic about the tall tales of the ADA/ HAL about the LCA with the program sneered at by the IAF for long.
The desperate talk about buying more MIG-29s, which should've been done a decade ago highlights the general incompetrnce of our defence planners, the lack of a grand strategy for Indian security and the failure of the political.elite to give national security its due.The share of GDP for defence has never been so low.The lead time for modernising and replacing obsolete eqpt. takes years with our torturous approval process.
Knee-jerk responses is the order of the day.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Awesome. So the IAF knew exactly what would happen if the MRCA circus was allowed to happen and they warned the government of it. They were overruled and here we are 17 years later where they have been proved right. If the government had listened to the IAF back then, we wouldn't have wasted time and money on MRCA and would have had 7 more squadrons of capable 4th gen aircraft available to the IAF. Yet the CAG somehow thinks the government was right to refuse the IAF's pitch? I mean the results are there before everyone to see.Rakesh wrote:CAG slams NDA-1 for delaying Rafale deal, but lauds its move against IAF pitch
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 001116.cms
The IAF did not give up its bid to acquire the advanced version of Mirage jets and resubmitted its proposal, stating that other options like Rafale, Eurofighter and F-35 planes were technologically superior but costlier. The force claimed that the "excess combat capacity" of the aircraft would remain under utilized. Despite another cold shoulder, the IAF resubmitted its proposal in December 2001. With IAF now arguing that the procurement be treated as a "repeat purchase", discussions were held between Dassault Aviation, HAL, DRDO and finance ministry from April to September 2002. In its report tabled in Parliament on Wednesday, the CAG expressed strong disapproval of this delay which dragged on till January 2004, before finally being junked and the IAF being directed to begin competitive tendering. Though the CAG report did not go into possible reasons why the then government indulged the IAF, it seems possible that the victory of the armed forces in the Kargil War - and the stellar role of the air force - may have made the Vajpayee government more receptive to the arguments for the Mirage 2000-5 acquisition. "Thus, four years were spent on deciding whether to procure the aircraft on single source basis or through competitive tendering," the CAG said.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
A story that goes unreported is that an IAS babu, raised the objection, submitting that it cannot be a repeat buy, it will violate xyz and should be rebid. He felt very proud at his retirement that he stopped the mighty IAF from acquiring the Mirage 2000-5.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Who was the DM at the time? And the IAF chief? That would be an interesting footnote.I wonder whether the extras option
clause was included in the initial contract, for both M2Ks and MIG-29s.Had they been there the IAF could've simply exercised that option.The IN had an option for extra Talwars..at the same price, but babudom famously waited for the date to pass placing the order some months later! Had the extras of either type been ordered we'd have 3 to 4 sqds. in service, plus no wasted years on the MMRCA fiasco.
clause was included in the initial contract, for both M2Ks and MIG-29s.Had they been there the IAF could've simply exercised that option.The IN had an option for extra Talwars..at the same price, but babudom famously waited for the date to pass placing the order some months later! Had the extras of either type been ordered we'd have 3 to 4 sqds. in service, plus no wasted years on the MMRCA fiasco.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1097048677217120256 ---> That’s one fine MiG hoarding as you pull out of Bangalore’s airport. Nice art, UAC Russia and nice touch with ‘MiG’ in Kannada.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Perhaps the Russians are buoyed by the recent CAG report....
Russia offers India tech transfer to sweeten deal amid ongoing negotiations for large MiG-35 order
https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... g-35-order
Russia offers India tech transfer to sweeten deal amid ongoing negotiations for large MiG-35 order
https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... g-35-order
Regarding Russia’s willingness to provide technology transfers Ilya Tarasenko, Vice President of UAC, stated: "We are ready not only to supply ready-made aircraft, but also to transfer the necessary technologies and documentation to partner enterprises for the production of these fighters in India. The new model implies a transition from the system of providing scattered services and the provision of specific spare parts to the provision of standardised indicators of the final result: the level of system operability, the level of operational reliability of the material part, the total cost of ownership of the weapon system and military equipment for the customer, as well as average downtime.” He further stated that the MiG-35 had evolved to better suit the Indian Air Force’s requirements, and that the fighter has changed dramatically in order to fully comply with the requirements of the Indian Air Force. This statement came very shortly after the Indian Air Force placed an order for further MiG-29UPG fighters - seen as a temporary means of expanding its light fighter fleet in the interim until more heavy fighters could be acquired. While acquisition of the MiG-35 was already highly likely amid ongoing negations, the possibility of more favourable terms for a technology transfer from the Indian perspective make this all the more likely and could lead to a larger order for the aircraft.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 075149.cms
Lockheed unveils new F-21 fighter jet configured for India
Anyone aware what this New F-21 is all about?
Lockheed unveils new F-21 fighter jet configured for India
Anyone aware what this New F-21 is all about?
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
They just decide too use the Russian strategy of renaming old aircraft and offering them as new . It’s just a F16 with new paint and a new name. LM provides the name and they will outsource the paint job to TataAditya_V wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 075149.cms
Lockheed unveils new F-21 fighter jet configured for India
Anyone aware what this New F-21 is all about?
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
You have got to hand it to them.. they are persistent.
Lockheed Martin unveils F-21 multirole fighter specifically configured for IAF
Well apig Viper by other name is still a Viper
Lockheed Martin unveils F-21 multirole fighter specifically configured for IAF
Well a
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Well I doubt other than basic stuff anything else will get outsourced to TATA
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
We should buy it, 21>16.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Just as we bought a rebadged upgraded tincan in the late 90s and killed Arjun.
The yanks are thinking of doing the same with f 21 and mk2
The yanks are thinking of doing the same with f 21 and mk2
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Will wrote:They just decide too use the Russian strategy of renaming old aircraft and offering them as new . It’s just a F16 with new paint and a new name. LM provides the name and they will outsource the paint job to TataAditya_V wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 075149.cms
Lockheed unveils new F-21 fighter jet configured for India
Anyone aware what this New F-21 is all about?
why are they so desperate??
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
There is the 17, which is one better than the 16Lisa wrote:We should buy it, 21>16.
This is the 21, which is just one less of the 22
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Any sales to IAF means 30+ years of service ,upgrades etc etc ....
very lucrative opportunity .
very lucrative opportunity .
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
As some one said , PAF would be operating F-16 we would be operating F-16 , But 21 > 16
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
should they not keep these jobs in their own country??tushar_m wrote:Any sales to IAF means 30+ years of service ,upgrades etc etc ....
very lucrative opportunity .
why shift to India??, they were not invited or even encouraged to do so.
It is their own initiative, misinterpreting and needlessly hyping the "make in India" theme to guilt India into purchasing an ancient technology.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Austin wrote:As some one said , PAF would be operating F-16 we would be operating F-16 , But 21 > 16
and we would effectively be subsidizing, among a whole host of other things, the flagging supply chain to support paki F-16s??
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Rebranding the F-16 as the 21 is a dumb sophmoric move.
No on the MiG-35. That platform is way past its time.
Please HAL, deliver on the Tejas so these phoren temptations are moot.
No on the MiG-35. That platform is way past its time.
Please HAL, deliver on the Tejas so these phoren temptations are moot.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
21-16 = 5. Don't they have F5 already which they renamed as F20 earlier. I hope only people earning money on this are the printing people of the brochar.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
looks exactly like F-16
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
F-21? Hoping numerology will get them the deal.The MIG-21 was a great success story with hundreds built.LM hope the same lucky number will sucker the IAF into buying it!
This is the good old Hindusthan Motors marketing strategy of Amby variants.MK-1/2/3...then came the Nova.I had to send my brand new co. Nova back to the workshop to be rewelded, etc.It spent 8 months of the first yr. in thr garage and on an early trip, the headlight fell off during a light drizzle.No wonder HM used to boast that every village mechanic could repair it as it broke down so often from village to village!
The F-21 will feature a choice of cockpit seat colours, maybe a wider screen HUD, new camouflage paint pattern, and an increased speed of the ejector seat by 1 kmph.
This is the good old Hindusthan Motors marketing strategy of Amby variants.MK-1/2/3...then came the Nova.I had to send my brand new co. Nova back to the workshop to be rewelded, etc.It spent 8 months of the first yr. in thr garage and on an early trip, the headlight fell off during a light drizzle.No wonder HM used to boast that every village mechanic could repair it as it broke down so often from village to village!
The F-21 will feature a choice of cockpit seat colours, maybe a wider screen HUD, new camouflage paint pattern, and an increased speed of the ejector seat by 1 kmph.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
And there was also some visible difference in that the F5 was twin engine whereas F20 was single engine (although with much more thrust)Yagnasri wrote: Don't they have F5 already which they renamed as F20 earlier.
The F21/F16V mostly sees upgrades in the sensors/electronics
yeah just like the MiG 29 and the MiG 35"The F-21 is different inside and out," said Dr Vivek Lall, vice president of Strategy and Business Development for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics.
well the Rafale is (and looks) much different to the Mirage 2000, inside and out.
Hopefully we will have many more Rafales
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
who would know? Didnt you notice people using all sort of planes during rafale allegation scandalabhijitm wrote:looks exactly like F-16
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
searched a bit for F21. No details of any sort in written, just marketing gimmicks. Only for those with a keen eye and experience to figure out from the visuals. Here's the product card from LM site.
https://lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/ ... 20Card.pdf
Another interesting line "india's pathway to F35"
https://lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/ ... 20Card.pdf
Another interesting line "india's pathway to F35"
The F-21 has common components and learning from Lockheed Martin’s 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 and will share a common supply chain on a variety of components. Approximately half of the F-21 and F-16 supply chains are common with the F-22 and F-35.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
And here's the F-21:
Product Card from LM
Played their cards well on the Make In India route. Sounds really tempting though.
Product Card from LM
Played their cards well on the Make In India route. Sounds really tempting though.
“The F-21 provides unmatched ‘Make in India’ opportunities and strengthens India’s path to an advanced airpower future,” said in the company.
“The new [F-21] designation highlights our commitment to delivering an advanced, scalable fighter aircraft to the Indian Air Force that also provides unrivaled industrial opportunities and accelerates closer India-US cooperation on advanced technologies,” he added.
“The F-21 is different, inside and out, Vivek Lall,” vice president of Strategy and Business Development for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said in a statement.
Reuters:
It said it expected to export planes from the proposed plant in India on top of the Indian requirements for an overseas market that it estimated at $20 billion.
It said production in India would create thousands of jobs for Indian industry as well as support hundreds of U.S.-based Lockheed Martin engineering, program management and customer support positions.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Adding on what I could find and X-posting from Aero-India thread...ArjunPandit wrote:searched a bit for F21. No details of any sort in written, just marketing gimmicks. Only for those with a keen eye and experience to figure out from the visuals. Here's the product card from LM site.
https://lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/ ... 20Card.pdf
Another interesting line "india's pathway to F35"
The F-21 has common components and learning from Lockheed Martin’s 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 and will share a common supply chain on a variety of components. Approximately half of the F-21 and F-16 supply chains are common with the F-22 and F-35.
Mukesh.Kumar wrote:And here's the F-21:
Product Card from LM
Played their cards well on the Make In India route. Sounds really tempting though.“The F-21 provides unmatched ‘Make in India’ opportunities and strengthens India’s path to an advanced airpower future,” said in the company.
“The new [F-21] designation highlights our commitment to delivering an advanced, scalable fighter aircraft to the Indian Air Force that also provides unrivaled industrial opportunities and accelerates closer India-US cooperation on advanced technologies,” he added.
“The F-21 is different, inside and out, Vivek Lall,” vice president of Strategy and Business Development for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said in a statement.
Reuters:
It said it expected to export planes from the proposed plant in India on top of the Indian requirements for an overseas market that it estimated at $20 billion.
It said production in India would create thousands of jobs for Indian industry as well as support hundreds of U.S.-based Lockheed Martin engineering, program management and customer support positions.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
There was a report I was reading a while back, where it mentions some babus telling LM guys.
Pak already has F16. It is not possible to buy the same jet. You have a better chance, if name it something else...
Pak already has F16. It is not possible to buy the same jet. You have a better chance, if name it something else...
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Looks like F-16I Sufa of Israeli AF.
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Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
And here's the nice video-
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
The only thing they forgot add.. Since 21 is close to 22, than 18 or 35, it is already closer to F22.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
the need to clear out old production machinery and space to ramp up JSF activities ... so they need a sucker to buy the story.
a new edge to edge bezeless MFD covering the whole cockpit, JSF quality radar (though sadly not the aperture or sw), EPE engine, a few EW gee gaws , "better than USAF F16" , and other rah rah.
a new edge to edge bezeless MFD covering the whole cockpit, JSF quality radar (though sadly not the aperture or sw), EPE engine, a few EW gee gaws , "better than USAF F16" , and other rah rah.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Guys can we not post about solah renamed to ikees. As a contender.
If this is not a slap on the face of our procurement process then I don't know what is.
Besides which. Why not ask for f35 and have the Khan say no to it. Why keep on spending money on 4th generation jets that will be as expensive as the 5the gen plane when all costs are added up.
If this is not a slap on the face of our procurement process then I don't know what is.
Besides which. Why not ask for f35 and have the Khan say no to it. Why keep on spending money on 4th generation jets that will be as expensive as the 5the gen plane when all costs are added up.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Sounds like a re-badged F16. Do we look like such suckers?
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Waiting for a piece in by the good Karnail extolling the virtue of 21>16.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Pratyush, agree. I see no logic in having the F-18 and F-16 in a race which could have had the F-35.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
They should at least put some more marketing effort if they're trying to hoodwink the iaf and goi into buying their rusting crap
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
Latest offer from LM.Not even F-35 but F-371 Back to the future retro special.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
F-16 Blk 70 or call it F-21 should be a good buy if IAF wants to bump up Squadron Number with Good Quality Aircraft with Low Maintenance ( single engine ) and proven airframe design.
IAF can easily up the squadron to 10-12 in shortest possible time with our fast depleting squadron number. This aircraft can replace the Mig-27 , 21 and Jaguar eventually. So replacing 3 types with a single one.
Tejas will come for sure but it will take time and there is no way IAF can guarantee HAL or some private player can bump up numbers quickly in the way LM can do for IAF ......Tejas Mk2 is still on drawing board and the singnificant design change means it will take time .......unpredictibility due to unknow Test Duration as well as Production issue.
IF US transfers deep tot for F-21 with local production like MKI and even for engine and a gurantee it wont be sanctioned for what we purchase and Life Long Support in terms of spares then we can go for this.
IAF can easily up the squadron to 10-12 in shortest possible time with our fast depleting squadron number. This aircraft can replace the Mig-27 , 21 and Jaguar eventually. So replacing 3 types with a single one.
Tejas will come for sure but it will take time and there is no way IAF can guarantee HAL or some private player can bump up numbers quickly in the way LM can do for IAF ......Tejas Mk2 is still on drawing board and the singnificant design change means it will take time .......unpredictibility due to unknow Test Duration as well as Production issue.
IF US transfers deep tot for F-21 with local production like MKI and even for engine and a gurantee it wont be sanctioned for what we purchase and Life Long Support in terms of spares then we can go for this.
Re: MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III
US should not be trusted even a little. Mission critical equipment should never be US dependent. Hope policymakers realize this. US (for all right reasons) has nation first policy - if India does not align with her national interest , they wont hestiate to put sanctionsAustin wrote:F-16 Blk 70 or call it F-21 should be a good buy if IAF wants to bump up Squadron Number with Good Quality Aircraft with Low Maintenance ( single engine ) and proven airframe design.
IAF can easily up the squadron to 10-12 in shortest possible time with our fast depleting squadron number. This aircraft can replace the Mig-27 , 21 and Jaguar eventually. So replacing 3 types with a single one.
Tejas will come for sure but it will take time and there is no way IAF can guarantee HAL or some private player can bump up numbers quickly in the way LM can do for IAF ......Tejas Mk2 is still on drawing board and the singnificant design change means it will take time .......unpredictibility due to unknow Test Duration as well as Production issue.
IF US transfers deep tot for F-21 with local production like MKI and even for engine and a gurantee it wont be sanctioned for what we purchase and Life Long Support in terms of spares then we can go for this.