Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2019 04:11

At least two more Mk1 squadrons please! :)

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1098842425504583680 ---> Yes, I was there when FOC was officially granted to the Tejas. It was one of the happiest moments of my life. But now is the time, to consolidate on the threshold that has been crossed. Build things in numbers, just don't be content with piecemeal production.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby titash » 23 Feb 2019 04:56

pralay wrote:
Rishi_Tri wrote:Tracking The Tejas: The Design Evolution Of An Indian Fighter Part-I
By Indranil Roy & Nilesh Rane - February 22, 2019
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/

Beautiful article, it was joy to read it.


Indranil & JayS (== Nilesh?), fantastic work.

Great analysis, a well told story, and one that deserves to be shared widely.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 05:04

Kakarat,

Please see the article I posted above.

EL/M-2052 + Israeli SPJ ---> Mk1A
Uttam (and probably a DARE solution IMO) ----> Mk1 replacing the EL/M-2032 Hybrid & as there is no jammer presently.
So a 40 unit order will be there.

Now, why is Uttam not directly being chosen for MK1A? Because there is no time.

Radar installation & testing is a very involved and arduous affair because they will now have to package the radar into the LCA (even if it is designed for it) and check the performance of the software & hardware at much higher speeds and G tolerances. There may be HW failures. The S/W may need tweaking (especially A2G modes).
Then there will the interface with OAC which will need to be checked against weaponization.

All in all, 2 years after installation on a fighter is a very aggressive schedule.

From the HAL perspective, they hate any changes, not even a small screw can be changed until & unless it is done well ahead in time.
So they want a proven system right off the shelf, and zero last moment changes.

MK1A is due, what 2022? So that means they want to spend all the time in fixing/tweaking an available system which is already flying on the DARIN-3 and get it to perform well enough for IAF requirements.

As long as Uttam goes into production, we need not worry.

Lets look at what one requires for an overall solution for a WCS (aka Weapons Control System:
Sensors - Radar & IRST -Uttam & Dual wave IRST for Su-30 upgrade
Mission & weapon computer: Huge experience, including the OAC on the LCA Mk1
Navigation: RCIs RLG-INS has now been cleared for production & expect a LCA/AF specific version soon; Combined GPS/GLONASS/IRNSS receivers will also be easily integrated.
Weapons interface modules: Already on LCA to interface with different systems
Indian made weapons: Astra Mk1/Mk2, Garuda, Garuthma, SAAW, NGARM, SANT, Nirbhay Air Launched, Rudra M-2/M-3
ESM/ECM suite to work well the RF sensor: Tarang has been fixed on the LCA Mk1 per latest Parliamentary report & the D-29, DARIN-3, Su-30 HBJammers are all being developed in parallel.
Visual data processing and display: Several firms with flight qualified gear using commercial AMLCDs, including SAMTEL.

So since a complete package is emerging, you will see the IAF push to retrofit the Uttam and variants on even the MiG-29 as part of a 2nd MLU. I would even presume, some of our Su-30s may see an Indian AESA fit.

Right now, lets take a look at what's happening with the LRDE radar scene beyond Uttam.

The LRDE has 2x AWACS programs & a MPA program to continue to work on airborne radars. It now has access to a bizjet testbed to fly out its FCRs. It has 2 sites where it can do a lot of heavy lifting regarding ground testing. The hardware part has been tackled via MPR, LLTR wherein we didnt take any tech assistance regarding how to handle the signal processing or any of the complex RF side stuff. Which leaves one more crucial thing, the all-important TRMs which need to be mass manufactured to drive costs down & get experience.

Again, this is happening via three programs. QRSAM, ADFCR aka Atulya and an unnamed program, which I believe likely exists and will use X-Band TRMs.

This, along with DRDO's efforts to operationalize GaN modules mean the power density & packaging side will keep pace with software tweaks, and hence a range of radars based off of Uttam may be available for the next tranche of fighter upgrades.

So things aren't bleak by all means. Significant progress but without the glowing PR that western programs get in trade journals.

Apart from DDR, I can't really cite any desi-media with half a brain or continued interest in the topic.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 05:06

Rakesh wrote:At least two more Mk1 squadrons please! :)

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1098842425504583680 ---> Yes, I was there when FOC was officially granted to the Tejas. It was one of the happiest moments of my life. But now is the time, to consolidate on the threshold that has been crossed. Build things in numbers, just don't be content with piecemeal production.


I agree, put a jammer on it, and its perfectly fine,RWR issue has been fixed anyhow. DCAS also notes in Parliamentary submission that its possible anyhow. For upgrade later, add the Uttam. Get all to FOC standard.
80 Mk1 + 80 Mk1A + 200 Mk2 = 360 LCA

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2019 07:21

Improved, Tejas Mark 1A to fly by 2022, if contracted this year
https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/02 ... -2022.html
Friday, 22 February 2019

“We are expanding our capacity to 16 Tejas per year. By the time the Tejas Mark 1A goes into production, our capacity will increase to 24 at least. That is how we intend to deliver the entire order for 83 Mark 1A in three-four years”, explained HAL’s design director, Arup Chatterjee.


Meanwhile, the Defence R&D Organisation’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is working on giving the Tejas the remaining three capabilities required for final operational certification. These include expanding the envelope of its “beyond visual range” missile, giving it mid-air refuelling capability by night, and of carrying out “windmill relight” if its engine switches off during flight.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 07:24

Rakesh, did you see this? After all the FUD this guy did about the Meteor, now he sweetly notes,
An area of conflict in the Tejas Mark 1A is the IAF’s wish to integrate the Meteor air-to-air missile into the fighter. The Meteor’s vendor, MBDA, has made it clear it would not integrate their prime missile with an Israeli radar, which has been chosen for the Tejas Mark 1A. But HAL says the IAF has not formally opted for the Meteor.

“The IAF has not included the Meteor as a firm requirement. Weapons come under the category of ‘customer furnished equipment’. If they provide us with the Meteor missile, we will see how it can be integrated with the Tejas,” said Chatterjee.


Joker.

Meanwhile, the Defence R&D Organisation’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is working on giving the Tejas the remaining three capabilities required for final operational certification. These include expanding the envelope of its “beyond visual range” missile, giving it mid-air refuelling capability by night, and of carrying out “windmill relight” if its engine switches off during flight.


Expanding the envelope, implies it has to be fired in different parts of the Tejas envelope OR I-Derby-ER.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Cybaru » 23 Feb 2019 07:36

Rishi_Tri wrote:BREAKING: The article is here. Very very detailed. I am still reading, digesting. Of course all rights of the authors, publishers.

Tracking The Tejas: The Design Evolution Of An Indian Fighter Part-I

By Indranil Roy & Nilesh Rane - February 22, 2019

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/


WOW! Lots of details. Thank you Indranil and JayS!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 23 Feb 2019 08:57

IR and Nilesh

No family at home tonight.
It is raining and winter is setting in.
So I shall..
Crack open a Glenlivet...
Put on the fire...
Ensconce myself in the wicker
With the dog at my feet
Enjoy without interruption
The fruits of your collaborative rumination...

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Manish_P » 23 Feb 2019 10:20

Rishi_Tri wrote:BREAKING: The article is here. Very very detailed. I am still reading, digesting. Of course all rights of the authors, publishers.

Tracking The Tejas: The Design Evolution Of An Indian Fighter Part-I

By Indranil Roy & Nilesh Rane - February 22, 2019

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/


Very Nice. Thanks.

^ Sachin ji - woah such smooth flowing poetry on the spur :shock: :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Singha » 23 Feb 2019 10:22

superb sirs. oozing with the kind of knalege that regular aviation mags like AFM or AI never get into.
loved the images esp the nose chine thing.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby ashishvikas » 23 Feb 2019 10:43

Rishi_Tri wrote:BREAKING: The article is here. Very very detailed. I am still reading, digesting. Of course all rights of the authors, publishers.

Tracking The Tejas: The Design Evolution Of An Indian Fighter Part-I

By Indranil Roy & Nilesh Rane - February 22, 2019

http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/


Thank you JayS and Indranil.

Rakesh Sir - It needs to be bookmarked in page 1.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby suryag » 23 Feb 2019 11:44

Sir minor nitpick feet to feat

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 23 Feb 2019 11:55

Karan M wrote:Superb article Jay and Indranil.

Thankfully, I missed it earlier. I had a lot of work stuff earlier and this would have completely distracted me. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I wish you guys had covered the avionics & other aspects as well, but lets not gild the lily. Now wheres part 2. :mrgreen:

I agree with that assessment. Felt that even while writing the article. But, I will fault you for that. There are very few who could have written a better article on that than you. I remember asking you to write about it earlier.

It’s not too late. You should write one about the eyes and nose of Tejas. I will help you in whatever way you need.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Vivek K » 23 Feb 2019 11:56

Superb article! Portrays Tejas in the right light! Thank you.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2019 12:01

Karan M wrote:Superb article Jay and Indranil.

Thankfully, I missed it earlier. I had a lot of work stuff earlier and this would have completely distracted me. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I wish you guys had covered the avionics & other aspects as well, but lets not gild the lily. Now wheres part 2. :mrgreen:


Saar, you should be the one writting that part. :D

This was suppose to be a quick small article about Mk2. Should have come out before AI started. But unfortunately it couldn't. May be you should get onboard for a more comprehensive article on entire program.


PS: Just saw IR's post above.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 23 Feb 2019 12:08

Thank you, fellow jingoes.

Also, a big thank you to Saurav Jha. His heart is exactly where ours are: desi man, desi arms supporter. I have admired two qualities in him (which have become rare among desi defense reporting circles): integrity and journalistic ethics.

If I write again, it will again be for Saurav.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 23 Feb 2019 12:09

Kakarat wrote:But by using Uttam on MkIA we can mature it to a better level for MkII and AMCA


And what exactly was the point of the Mk1A? to get it into service as soon as possible, by keeping the development, flight testing and certification schedule as tight as possible. Adding a risk like an in-development radar that has not yet flown on a fighter, and definitely requires a lot of work to be done before going into production, will be foolhardy if you're the Project Manager responsible for the Mk1A's timelines.

The Uttam has a bright future, there is no doubt about that..and with 40 Mk1's that can be retrofitted with it, plus 200 MWF Tejas Mk2, there is a long production run ahead of it, provided it meets the IAF's expectations. But there is no reason to introduce such a risk into such an important program as the Mk1A.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 23 Feb 2019 12:32

Kartik wrote:
Kakarat wrote:But by using Uttam on MkIA we can mature it to a better level for MkII and AMCA


And what exactly was the point of the Mk1A? to get it into service as soon as possible, by keeping the development, flight testing and certification schedule as tight as possible. Adding a risk like an in-development radar that has not yet flown on a fighter, and definitely requires a lot of work to be done before going into production, will be foolhardy if you're the Project Manager responsible for the Mk1A's timelines.
...

Karan M wrote:Kakarat,

Please see the article I posted above.

EL/M-2052 + Israeli SPJ ---> Mk1A
Uttam (and probably a DARE solution IMO) ----> Mk1 replacing the EL/M-2032 Hybrid & as there is no jammer presently.
So a 40 unit order will be there.
...


My point is not to add a untested and under developed radar to Tejas MkIA.
From Defexpo 18 to Aeroindia 19 Uttam has come a long way, At defexpo according to the scientist i discussed with Uttam was waiting for test aircraft and at Aeroindia It has completed initial testing on executive aircraft and is integrated on LSP-2 for testing on fighter envelope. MkIA is 3 years away from contract signing which its self couple of months away according to HAL. Development can be completed before the radar is required for integration on MkIA if a little more effort is put on it as results of whatever tests were done has been positive. There is not much time available between MkIA and MkII rollouts and a product cannot be matured without putting it on operational use

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kartik » 23 Feb 2019 13:27

Kakarat wrote:I dont see a idle production line but only 8 per year production till MkIA, it it is ready by 2023


HAL has announced that the 16 FOC single seaters will be delivered in FY 2019-2020, so where is the question of 8 per year production till Mk1A?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby JayS » 23 Feb 2019 14:15

while talking about MK1A, we should keep one thing in mind that MK1A does not have any airframe changes from MK1 and its production need not wait for "first flight" or certification. We are truly moving into concurrent engineering mode now. This is very similar to how Rafales are being produced but the FOC of Indian rafales will come only in 2022. Production will continue while DA gets the Flight testing done.

Basically, given MoD gives firm orders and IAF take the deliveries, HAL can seemlessly continue manufacturing till 300 or whatever the final number will be in total for LCA/MWF project.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 23 Feb 2019 14:29

Kartik wrote:
Kakarat wrote:I dont see a idle production line but only 8 per year production till MkIA, it it is ready by 2023


HAL has announced that the 16 FOC single seaters will be delivered in FY 2019-2020, so where is the question of 8 per year production till Mk1A?


This is just a speculation as no company would want a idle line and HAL's statement of MkIA rollout only after 3 years from contract signing
I would love to be wrong on this and see more and more tejas joining asap, I would also love to see more orders for MkI/MkIA since MkII is a MWF and not a LCA anymore

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 16:46

Kakarat, I agree with you that Uttam has come a long way and we all hope that it will be ready double quick. However, there is no guarantee that it will be, while IAF/HAL want certainty, hence the push for an already developed and ready radar. The compressed time frame for Mk2 demands the same. They have no time to account for any hitch in Uttam.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kakarat » 23 Feb 2019 17:36

From the position of the canards on the MkII i dont think there will be a two seater trainer for the MkII in that case shouldn't the IAF order at least 40 more MkI trainers?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Khalsa » 23 Feb 2019 17:55

ks_sachin wrote:IR and Nilesh

No family at home tonight.
It is raining and winter is setting in.
So I shall..
Crack open a Glenlivet...
Put on the fire...
Ensconce myself in the wicker
With the dog at my feet
Enjoy without interruption
The fruits of your collaborative rumination...


Here Here

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Prasad » 23 Feb 2019 18:47

Indranil wrote:
Karan M wrote:Superb article Jay and Indranil.

Thankfully, I missed it earlier. I had a lot of work stuff earlier and this would have completely distracted me. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I wish you guys had covered the avionics & other aspects as well, but lets not gild the lily. Now wheres part 2. :mrgreen:

I agree with that assessment. Felt that even while writing the article. But, I will fault you for that. There are very few who could have written a better article on that than you. I remember asking you to write about it earlier.

It’s not too late. You should write one about the eyes and nose of Tejas. I will help you in whatever way you need.

+1. On radars too :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2019 20:21

Khalsa wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:IR and Nilesh

No family at home tonight.
It is raining and winter is setting in.
So I shall..
Crack open a Glenlivet...
Put on the fire...
Ensconce myself in the wicker
With the dog at my feet
Enjoy without interruption
The fruits of your collaborative rumination...


Here Here

Waah!! Amazing! Glenlivet Single Malt Saar? :mrgreen: Can I come too?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2019 20:22

ashishvikas wrote:Rakesh Sir - It needs to be bookmarked in page 1.

Excellent idea. I will link. And do not call me Sir :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2019 22:25

Indranil wrote:Thank you, fellow jingoes.

Also, a big thank you to Saurav Jha. His heart is exactly where ours are: desi man, desi arms supporter. I have admired two qualities in him (which have become rare among desi defense reporting circles): integrity and journalistic ethics.

If I write again, it will again be for Saurav.

keep a pinch of salt for being a BRFite. To err is human. Just saying.

---

re: vibration on gun firing/ wondered if it is all about the joints.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2019 00:56

tsarkar wrote:The dates are not correct.

IOC-I 10 Jan 2011 http://pibmumbai.gov.in/scripts/detail. ... 2013PR2385
17 January 2015 first Series Production aircraft were handed over to IAF
There is nothing called clearance.
20-2-2019 can be considered the official FOC date though CEMILAC had given approval on 28-12-2018

I have made the change. Please check and let me know.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2019 00:57

Rakesh wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Rakesh Sir - It needs to be bookmarked in page 1.

Excellent idea. I will link. And do not call me Sir :)

Ashish, added in Page 1 of Tejas Mk1 thread...RIGHT NEAR THE TOP, where it should be. Please check.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2019 04:50

Up to the top, where Tejas belongs :)


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