Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Feb 2019 03:33

Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter

Photographs below are courtesy of;
1) Shiv Aroor ---> https://www.livefistdefence.com/
2) Vijainder K Thakur ---> https://twitter.com/vkthakur

Last Page of Previous Thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7636&start=1080

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) webpage on the Tejas Mk2 ---> https://www.ada.gov.in/images/mk2.htm

Thanks to BRF Members --> Indranil Roy, M_Saini, Nilesh Rane, Prasad and Sankum for their contributions.

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Milestones Achieved

• On 31 August 2022, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) cleared the project to develop the Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter. This project - which is expected to cost Rs. 6,500 crore - is for the design, development, testing and certification of the aircraft. An earlier Rs 2,500 crore was sanctioned in November 2009 for design and development to get to the CDR stage.
Source: https://tinyurl.com/3vabften

• R. Madhavan - Chief Managing Director of HAL - in an interview dated January 2022, stated that the design for the Tejas Mk2 has been frozen and some of the manufacturing activities have started.
Source: https://tinyurl.com/p4tpmje3

• Air Marshal Narmdeshwar Tiwari, the Deputy Chief of Air Staff (DCAS) of the Indian Air Force, accepted the Critical Design Review (CDR) of the Tejas Mk2 on 15 November 2021.
Source: https://tinyurl.com/2yz6trhb

Future Milestones

• Roll out of first prototype is expected in 2025 or 2026.
• First flight of the prototype is expected in 2026 or 2027.

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General Characteristics

• Length: 14.6 metres
• Height: 4.86 metres
• Wingspan: 8.5 metres
• Wing Area: 44 square metres
• Empty Weight: 7,850 kg
• Take-Off Clean Weight: 11,300 kg
• Normal Take-Off Weight: 17,500 kg
• Maximum Take-Off Weight: 18,200 kg
• Maximum Payload Capacity: 6,500 kg
• Internal Fuel: 3,388 kg
• External Fuel: 3,760 kg
• Total Fuel: 7,148 kg
• Engine: General Electric F414-INS6 turbofan (Info Sheet --> https://www.geaviation.com/propulsion/military/f414)
• Hard Points: 11

Performance Specifications

• Service Ceiling: 50,000 feet
• G Limits: +9g / -3.2g
• Maximum Speed: Mach 1.8
• Maximum Thrust: 98 kN
• Ferry Range: 3,500 km

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Articles - Tejas Mk2 MWF

Tejas Mark 2 fighter to get cabinet sanction this week
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/08/teja ... binet.html
By Ajai Shukla, 30 Aug 2022

How Tejas Mark 2 is evolving into a bigger, powerful fighter
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2021/12/how- ... -into.html
By Ajai Shukla, 30 Dec 2021

Air Force clears Tejas Mark 2 design, production begins in 2023
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2021/12/air- ... esign.html
By Ajai Shukla, 29 Dec 2021

Tracking The Tejas: How The Tejas Mk2 Design Became The Medium Weight Fighter
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... t-fighter/
By Indranil Roy and Nilesh Rane, 23 Feb 2019

Tracking The Tejas: The Design Evolution Of An Indian Fighter
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/2 ... er-part-i/
By Indranil Roy and Nilesh Rane, 22 Feb 2019

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Video - Tejas Mk2 MWF

Tejas Mk 2 interview with Project Director Dr Madhusudhana Rao
*Interview courtesy of Prasad, Delhi Defence Review --> http://delhidefencereview.com/

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Information Posters - Tejas Mk2 MWF
* Drag & Drop pictures into new browser windows for full size.

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Twitter Thread on Tejas Mk2
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1476 ... 20033.html
By Indranil Roy, 29 Dec 2021

Twitter Thread on Tejas Mk2
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1565 ... 58016.html
By Indranil Roy, 01 Sept 2022

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Feb 2019 04:48

New thread started with JayS and Indranil's excellent article to start off. Mods, please add info as you see fit. Thank You. Please also check the design specifications sub-heading if anything is wrong. I lifted that info off the Naval Tejas thread

ADA's own page on the Mk2 is wrong

Added L8r: I edited the design specifications sub-heading based on the second picture from top

chola · Post by **chola** » 24 Feb 2019 05:58

I want to look back one day at the very beginning of this thread and marvel at how far we’ve come. We are litterally at the very begining of this journey with the MWF.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Feb 2019 06:09

Q: is that how retractable refuel probe would be?

Ref:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... 2.jpg.html

(may not be part of the model perhaps)

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 24 Feb 2019 06:36

@Rakesh: Expected first flight is end of 2021 or early 2022 per ADA chief Dr Girish Deodhare. Metal cutting to start soon, 4 production standard prototypes to be built.

See video @1:25 in following tweet

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 1056533505

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 24 Feb 2019 07:14

I do not want to be the one to whine first in this very new and auspicious thread, all power to MWF. We have truly made a copy of Mirage 2000 (-9 avionics wise, which is just now entering service). But the MWF is almost performance wise very same like Mirage 2000 (a 40 year old design, ours is little more modern than that), it is a multi-role fighter just like Mirage2000, a very good bomb truck and a very decent range, but suffers from the same shortcoming that Mirage 2000 has, slightly underpowered and not a great A-A fighter (it can not convincingly win against Mig 29, maybe LCAmk1a, f-16, j-10 etc.). Can we not bake in the space (for bigger engine and airflow required for it) so that at a later date it can be up engine? (It is going to serve for another 30-40 years with IAF?)

pandyan · Post by **pandyan** » 24 Feb 2019 08:55

Wonderful article IR and JayS.

Please extend the article or a followup to cover LCA Navy Mk2.

Interesting to see two different approaches in MK2 variants...canards and stabilators

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Feb 2019 10:31

The important differences between Mirage 2000 and MWF shall be

Longer Range
Better low speed & low altitude maneuver ability
Better take off and landing run
Better radar, avionics, maaws & Spj
Better RCS

What else we need? How much difference is there between 747, 777, 380 etc?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Feb 2019 10:35

Super Articles by IR & NR.

Can I ask a layperson question:-

Are the canards of IAF MK2 big enough? Do they have adequate degrees of movement?

Same question for horizontal tail ie Stabilators of NCLA MK2?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Feb 2019 11:12

Why would you suspect otherwise? With more context, I could provide a better answer.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Feb 2019 11:16

Fanne, almost all your assumptions are mistaken, so relax.

1. Avionics wise, it will be far ahead of any Mirage 2000. There is no Mirage 2000 anywhere, which will be equivalent to a MWF, until and unless India upgrades its own Mirages with MWF derived avionics.
2. Performance wise, it will not be any slouch in A2A. Read Indranil and Jay's article. There is more to a design's performance than thrust alone. Drag, Area ruling all matter.
3. The MWF is basically a single engined Rafale, in terms of capabilities, so to speak.

fanne wrote:I do not want to be the one to whine first in this very new and auspicious thread, all power to MWF. We have truly made a copy of Mirage 2000 (-9 avionics wise, which is just now entering service). But the MWF is almost performance wise very same like Mirage 2000 (a 40 year old design, ours is little more modern than that), it is a multi-role fighter just like Mirage2000, a very good bomb truck and a very decent range, but suffers from the same shortcoming that Mirage 2000 has, slightly underpowered and not a great A-A fighter (it can not convincingly win against Mig 29, maybe LCAmk1a, f-16, j-10 etc.). Can we not bake in the space (for bigger engine and airflow required for it) so that at a later date it can be up engine? (It is going to serve for another 30-40 years with IAF?)

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 24 Feb 2019 11:26

And on top of this, there will be a progressive sensor fusion suite development which will be better than that of Rafale. Historically, 3->4Gen there are no major changes in airframes except for addons like Thrust vectoring or supercruise. It has been on the avionics, datalinks and carefree handling front which MWF will do better than the M2K.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 24 Feb 2019 11:27

Gyan wrote:Super Articles by IR & NR.

Can I ask a layperson question:-

Are the canards of IAF MK2 big enough? Do they have adequate degrees of movement?

Same question for horizontal tail ie Stabilators of NCLA MK2?

^^ engineering process extensively use CAD software(including finite element discrete interval simulation), and optimization process take much time. Then experimental vetification using wind tunnel are used verify between competing options.
I suggest to believe the designers & engineers.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 24 Feb 2019 11:33

Indranil Roy ji aur Nilesh Rane ji
All I can say is "saadhu saadhu".
Hrydaya praphullit kar diya. Bhagwaan ki krapaa bani rahey aap sab par.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2019 11:37

Fanne, Also read Pierre Sprey paper on fighter combat since WWI. Four factors are at play for scoring a kill advantage
1) The aircraft that spots it's opponent first, radar & visual
2) The aircraft that shoots first. Here BVR takes importance.
3) I forget
4) Aircraft that gets into third quadrant. Imagine the longitudinal axis and wings create the four quadrants. Here maneuverability becomes critical. The closed coupled canards help.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 24 Feb 2019 16:39

A very interesting load out on the LCA Tejas Mk2 (MWF) picture in the first post of this thread- seems to be an enlarged version of SAAW (more like a desi version of StormShadow) on the center pylon. Obviously will get more range & payload than SAAW - so can expect a 300km range with around 250-300Kg payload. A very good long range standoff munition and/or ALCM seems to be in development based on the SAAW..

Besides that a desi HSLD bomb which will become routine across all fighters, it seems if one goes by commentary from VayuShakti2019. The development seems to be highly successful..

https://twitter.com/band318/status/1099609643414970368

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Feb 2019 17:08

Rakall- first, welcome back. Long time no see.

Second, that's SCALP.. IAF has asked for it to be put on the MWF

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Feb 2019 19:46

sivab wrote:@Rakesh: Expected first flight is end of 2021 or early 2022 per ADA chief Dr Girish Deodhare. Metal cutting to start soon, 4 production standard prototypes to be built.

See video @1:25 in following tweet

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 1056533505

Saar, you rock! Thank you for that info. Did he mention anything about the first flight of the Naval Tejas Mk2? I put it as end of 2023.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Feb 2019 20:23

Please stop! So much jingo news will give each of us diabetes!!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Feb 2019 20:24

You will only get diabetes when I start distributing mithai

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Feb 2019 20:30

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 24 Feb 2019 20:44

Rakesh wrote:You will only get diabetes when I start distributing mithai

I am reporting this, You should be banned for mithai trolling

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 24 Feb 2019 20:51

Rakesh sir, what are the chances for IAF to shelve Mk1A completely and go for some more FOC to be converted to Mk1A later+MWF if MWF followed its timeline strictly. The timeline I am seeing, MWF production ready prototype is going to come sooner than Mk1A can and IAF may be tempted to produce MWF more.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 24 Feb 2019 22:12

The chances are nil, though MWF will fly between 21 to 23 very close to MkIA first flight it has to go through testing and certification before entering production. It is production standard not production ready prototype, It means it can be easily adapted for production not it can start production immediately after FF.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 24 Feb 2019 22:17

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/109 ... 73029?s=20
The LCA Mk-2 design has not been wind tunnel tested. What has been wind tunnel tested is this Mk-1 model with close coupled canards. The performance gains from the canards were marginal which is why it's possible that the canards would be dropped

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/109 ... 46561?s=20
It is true that at the moment only low speed wind tunnel tests on a 1: 10 Tejas Mk1 model with a fuselage plug & close coupled canards have been done. However, the debate revolves around the thickness of the canards, precise shape etc, not so much the canards themselves.

MWF model wind tunnel tests not done yet. Why is it being tested on mk1 model?

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 24 Feb 2019 23:12

gaurav.p wrote: MWF model wind tunnel tests not done yet. Why is it being tested on mk1 model?

Hear directly from ADA chief @1:25. Design is done, mk2 wind tunnel model shown in AI19 was tested, metal cutting soon.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 1056533505

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Feb 2019 23:17

Khare sahab,

You asked if the MLG is going to retract into the lower wing body join fairing. The answer is no for MWF and yes for NLCA MK2.

Regarding the boundary layer deposition. There is some confusion on this. Jay spoke to people who designed the inlet, and so we went with his information. The wind tunnel model is not the most up to date. For example, you can’t see the wingtip modifications on that model.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 24 Feb 2019 23:24

sivab wrote: Hear directly from ADA chief @1:25. Design is done, mk2 wind tunnel model shown in AI19 was tested, metal cutting soon.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 1056533505

The wind tunnel tests done up till now have been done on the mk1 model with canards as mentioned in the linked tweets. Since the MWF has other changes as well, testing with mk1 model with canards shouldn't suffice IMO. The wise saars will bring more clarity, I guess.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 25 Feb 2019 00:17

Indranil wrote:Khare sahab,

You asked if the MLG is going to retract into the lower wing body join fairing. The answer is no for MWF and yes for NLCA MK2.

Regarding the boundary layer deposition. There is some confusion on this. Jay spoke to people who designed the inlet, and so we went with his information. The wind tunnel model is not the most up to date. For example, you can’t see the wingtip modifications on that model.

dkhare, WT model is just some iteration among many. Its not even MK2 final config. More like Mk1 with canards IIRC. No BL spillway on top of the wing, for sure. If the designers themselves say so then I believe them rather than any model or rendering which are all representatives.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Feb 2019 00:45

Just saw VK Thakur states DRDO has not done anything about RAM etc. That too is wrong. And Sivab's link directly contradicts his claim about Mk2 model not being WT tested.

gaurav.p wrote:
https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/109 ... 73029?s=20
The LCA Mk-2 design has not been wind tunnel tested. What has been wind tunnel tested is this Mk-1 model with close coupled canards. The performance gains from the canards were marginal which is why it's possible that the canards would be dropped

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/109 ... 46561?s=20
It is true that at the moment only low speed wind tunnel tests on a 1: 10 Tejas Mk1 model with a fuselage plug & close coupled canards have been done. However, the debate revolves around the thickness of the canards, precise shape etc, not so much the canards themselves.
MWF model wind tunnel tests not done yet. Why is it being tested on mk1 model?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Feb 2019 02:46

See this from Saurav Jha....

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1099633619541274625 ---> This is with reference to early wind tunnel testing for the Tejas Mk2 MWF...

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1099633026231746561 --> It is true that at the moment only low speed wind tunnel tests on a 1: 10 Tejas Mk1 model with a fuselage plug & close coupled canards have been done. However, the debate revolves around the thickness of the canards, precise shape etc, not so much the canards themselves.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 25 Feb 2019 02:58

sivab wrote:
gaurav.p wrote: MWF model wind tunnel tests not done yet. Why is it being tested on mk1 model?
Hear directly from ADA chief @1:25. Design is done, mk2 wind tunnel model shown in AI19 was tested, metal cutting soon.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 1056533505

Dr Deodhar confirms that the decision to go for MWF taken concurrent to MK1A, that means sometime in 2014-15. I imagine it must be during those 13 or 14 meetings that Manohar Parrikar Saar conducted. Or it could be a bit later too. But not too long after that.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 25 Feb 2019 14:33

True MWF has been WT tested as said in the video amd soon going for metal cutting stage. Plus it is a production model ac so less turnaround time.

Just that displaying just the mk1 WT with canards created the confusion and not the MWF WT model. Also as it has been stated that what was displayed was one of many iterations.

nam · Post by **nam** » 25 Feb 2019 19:03

Looks like this will be MK2 cockpit( or may be MK1A as well). HAL intends to modify one of the LSP to this standard. It will very interesting.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 25 Feb 2019 20:13

I spoke with the above gent at AI. He is truly a towering personality in real life standing at prolly 6'6". A little OT, a friend of mine who was with me was asking him about Rafale vs Su-30. His opinion was that Rafale bests Su-30 in almost all areas expect small maneuverability envelope. He compared Su-30 to Esteem & Rafale to Civic in terms of tech (which is known anyways). I asked him how far along with Super 30 upgrade take it and he was like it will improve it a huge margin but in terms of TWR, it will fall short of Rafale.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Feb 2019 21:28

nam wrote:Looks like this will be MK2 cockpit( or may be MK1A as well). HAL intends to modify one of the LSP to this standard. It will very interesting.

HOLD UP!!! Roll Back the Wagon!!! Stop the Press!!!

Everyone needs to see that video posted by nam. Listen to what the pilot is saying - it will give your jingo heart amazing blood pressure!!! As cool as that video is, ***LISTEN*** to what that pilot is saying. Mother of Jupiter, Tejas is going places. And you are right, it looks like this cockpit layout will feature in the Mk2.

I am might just post this video in the first post of all three Tejas threads we have on BRF!

WOW!!!!! This mango abdul is very excited. We do not even need MMRCA 3.0

dkhare · Post by **dkhare** » 25 Feb 2019 23:06

Indranil and JayS - Thank you for your replies. Indranil, no sahab please, will resort to automatic retaliation by addressing you as Indranilji.

I also wanted to ask about the Elevon inboard actuator attachment mentioned in the drawing for the rear fuselage in the HAL RFI. I don't know if this is similar to Mk1 but was wondering if it means they are moving the actuators into the the wing fuselage blending itself? Is this a learning from the AMCA design which may have moved the actuators in a similar position and thus drastically reduced physical signature of the actuators behind the pylons? If not, did anyone hear about smaller/lighter actuators for the Mk2 behind the pylons?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Feb 2019 23:47

Rakesh, SPORT is a HAL project not ADA. Mk2 cockpit may be more conventional unless IAF asks for this change. This was the original one.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Feb 2019 23:48

However, the repositioning of the controller, swarm drones, cruise missile stuff is interesting.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Feb 2019 23:59

Thanks for that Karan. That drone and cruise missile stuff is what is most exciting. That really, really, really is amazing!!! The side controller and that type of glass cockpit is just icing on the cake. Cool if it came, but not necessary.

Just look at the spin offs from one single Light Weight Fighter program called the Tejas. This is what developing your own plane does. Doing screwdrivergiri on an OEM plane will give you squat.