Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Feb 2019 04:27

Naval Tejas Mk1 and Mk2

Last Page of Previous Thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7181&start=960

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) webpage on the Naval Tejas Mk1/Mk2 ---> https://www.ada.gov.in/images/Navy.htm

Acronyms:
• NP ---> Naval Prototype
• KHN-T ---> Two Seat Trainer
• KHN ---> Single Seat Fighter

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A Detailed Look At The Design Evolution Of India’s Naval-LCA Mk1 Fighter
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/10/1 ... 1-fighter/
By Indranil Roy and Nilesh Rane

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NAVAL TEJAS Mk 1

Milestones Achieved
• NP-1 (KHN-T-3001) conducted her first flight on 27 April 2012. The twin seater was piloted by Commodore JA Maolankar (Retd) and Wing Commander Malteesh Prabhu.

• NP-2 (KHN-3002) conducted her first flight on 07 February 2015. The single seater was piloted by Captain Shivnath Dahiya (retd).

• NP-1 successfully completed the first arrested landing on 13 September 2019 at INS Hansa naval air station in Goa. NP-1 was piloted by Commodore JA Maolankar (Retd) with ground assistance from Captain Shivnath Dahiya (Retd), Landing Safety Officer and Commander JD Raturi (Retd), Test Director. As per NDTV news reporter, Vishnu Som, NP-1 decelerated in about 2 seconds from 244 km/h (132 knots) to zero km/h hour by snagging the wire on the test runway with the hook attached to the jet's fuselage. In 87 metres, the jet came to a full stop. NP-1 undertook a second arrested landing, again on 13 September 2019, from INS Hansa. This time NP-1 was piloted by Captain Shivnath Dahiya (Retd).

• NP-2 successfully completed the first ski jump take-off and arrested landing, in the same flight, at INS Hansa on 29 September 2019. NP-2 took off at 1621 hours and was trapped at 1631 hours.

• NP-1 successfully completed the first night arrested landing on 12 November 2019 at 1845 hours at INS Hansa.

Production Run
Construction Number ... Serial Number ... Aircraft First Flight ... Pilot(s)
• NP-1 ... KHN-T-3001 ... 27-Apr-12 ... Commodore Jaideep Maolankar (IN) and Wing Commander Malteesh Prabhu (IAF)
• NP-2 ... KHN-3002 ... 07-Feb-15 ... Captain Shivnath Dahiya (IN)
• NP-5 ... KHN-T-30XX ... trainer variant
• NP-6 ... KHN-30XX ... fighter variant
• NP-7 ... KHN-30XX ... fighter variant

Design Specifications
• Length: 13.2 metres
• Height: 4.4 metres
• Wingspan: 8.2 metres
• Wing Area: 40 square metres
• Empty Weight: 7.5 Tons
• Maximum Take Off Weight: 13.2 Tons
• Internal Fuel: 2.5 Tons
• Engine: General Electric F404-IN20 turbofan with military thrust of 54 kN and afterburner thrust of 84 kN.

Performance
• Maximum Speed: Mach 1.4
• Service Ceiling: 50,000 feet
• G Limits: +8g / -3.5g

Photographs - Naval Tejas Mk1
Photo below is courtesy of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd ---> https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR

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NAVAL TEJAS Mk 2

Future Milestones
• First flight expected end 2023

Production Run
Construction Number ... Serial Number ... Aircraft First Flight ... Pilot(s)
• NP-3 ... KHN-30XX ... fighter variant
• NP-4 ... KHN-30XX ... fighter variant

Design Specifications
• Length: 14.6 metres
• Wingspan: 8.9 metres
• Wing Area: 44 square metres
• Maximum Take Off Weight: 17 Tons

Performance
• Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6
• Service Ceiling: 50,000 feet
• G Limits: +8g / -3g

Photographs - Naval Tejas Mk2
Photos below are courtesy of Vijainder K Thakur ---> https://twitter.com/vkthakur

Photo below is courtesy of ADG (M&C) DPR, Govt of India ---> https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 24 Feb 2019 04:32

Only one word for it - Beeeoootifulllll!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Feb 2019 04:44

It is beautiful. Can the gurus please check the specs of the Naval Tejas Mk1 in the first post?

I lifted the specs off the wiki page and I am sure it is wrong. Mods, please edit and add additional specs as you deem fit.

titash · Post by **titash** » 24 Feb 2019 05:18

Rakesh wrote:It is beautiful. Can the gurus please check the specs of the Naval Tejas Mk1 in the first post?

I lifted the specs off the wiki page and I am sure it is wrong. Mods, please edit and add additional specs as you deem fit.

Admiral-ji, great work on collating all this information and putting these 3 threads at the top.

Not sure if the vast majority of the Indian population gets a kick out of all this, but I sure do. That's why I keep coming back to BR for 20+ years.

John · Post by **John** » 24 Feb 2019 05:44

Why was irst left off?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Feb 2019 05:49

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/1099285012287873029 ----> The LCA Mk 2 design has not been wind tunnel tested. What has been wind tunnel tested is this Mk 1 model with close coupled canards. The performance gains from the canards were marginal which is why it's possible that the canards would be dropped.

Above tweet is in response to his own tweet below....

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/1099285012287873029 ---> The IAF MWF (LCA Mk2) design is less matured than the LCA Navy Mk2 design. My understanding is that the close coupled canards aren't a done deal. Their negative impact on RCS and their underwhelming aerodynamic payoff during initial wind tunnel testing cast a doubt.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Feb 2019 05:52

John wrote:Why was irst left off?

VK Thakur just affirming your question above....tweet below uses the third picture from top in this thread.

https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/1098644890647490560 ---> Note the almost frame-less canopy and the sharply sloping and short nose section of the LCA Navy Mk 2 affording excellent cockpit visibility for landing. Also, no IRST as in the IAF MWF! Indeed, a Navy thoroughbred!

chola · Post by **chola** » 24 Feb 2019 05:54

Can’t wait to post in this thread when the Naval Tejas lands and hooks on the Vikrant or Vikramaditya!

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Feb 2019 06:02

How much fuel in the naval mk2? The bulging top and sides seem to indicate a lot more fuel... would be nice if they do 3800-4200 kgs of fuel and about 4500 kgs of payload..

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Feb 2019 16:20

What about first flight for Naval Mk2 - any dates shared for that?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 24 Feb 2019 19:42

Can they de-risk the AMCA wing, where the rear of the wing is curved, by trying it out on the LCA Navy? I don't know about wing loading but drag was a concern given the engine thrust

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 25 Feb 2019 11:36

Vasu,

I do not understand.

What risk of the AMCA wing are you concerned about (and why) and how are you trying to determine and mitigate that? If it is drag, then the wing alone is not the contributor, how and where the wings are placed etc are important - Mk 2 has it placed differently and on a wider fuselage, so results would not be same. A wing tunnel model would allow for greater study and instrumentation and would also allow you to change the design without costs associated in making and fitting wings etc.

If it is manufacturing risk, then make a prototype (metal cutting, etc). If it is something else, then soe other action (e.g. prototype plane and wing)

Wing loading used to be a handy proxy for overall maneuverability: based on weight : airplane+payload (fuel+weapon) and lift area. But in newer generations, even the body, canard etc are used to generate lift, so these rough rules of thumb are not as useful.

Next as BVR starts dominating, the maneuverability becomes less significant than situational awareness, training and good performing missiles . i.e. a good radar, sensor fusion, to see and identify an enemy and other threats , engine etc to achieve high energy/high thrust/high speed where feasible, training for tactics, and good performing missiles to knock out the enemy from further away.

Maneuverability is still needed because you may wind up with WVR fight sometimes and also for some edge cases to evade enemy missiles.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 25 Feb 2019 13:54

It is beautiful except for the stabilator. Just feels like an after thought with a delta wing...

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 25 Feb 2019 14:07

I feel that the Mk2 IAF and Navy versions still have some tweaks to be made before the designs are frozen, and there's scope for the two designs to converge further. Especially w.r.t. to canards and stabilators...

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 28 Feb 2019 01:50

Aeromag show daily 1

Interview-Dr. Girish S. Deodhare Programme Director, Combat Aircraft & Director, ADA

Navy Mark-2 design has been completed and the aircraft is being realised and it should be ready in about 18 months.(July 2020)
We plan to complete Shore Based Carrier Compatibility testing on LCA Navy Mk1 this year and progress to realisation of LCA Navy Mk2 for operational deployment on the carrier. The design of the twin engine fifth generation deck based fighter has also commenced

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Feb 2019 02:29

So LCA Navy Mk2 will come before MWF.

krishGo · Post by **krishGo** » 28 Feb 2019 02:45

JTull wrote:So LCA Navy Mk2 will come before MWF.

Looks like that if we take into account that metal cutting for MWF is about to start whereas Navy Mk2 is already in (early stages of?) fabrication. Atleast the first flight of Navy Mk2 should be before that of MWF.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 28 Feb 2019 07:42

sankum wrote:Aeromag show daily 1

Interview-Dr. Girish S. Deodhare Programme Director, Combat Aircraft & Director, ADA

Navy Mark-2 design has been completed and the aircraft is being realised and it should be ready in about 18 months.(July 2020)
We plan to complete Shore Based Carrier Compatibility testing on LCA Navy Mk1 this year and progress to realisation of LCA Navy Mk2 for operational deployment on the carrier. The design of the twin engine fifth generation deck based fighter has also commenced

@Rakesh

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Feb 2019 08:05

@Sivab: Does that mean a prototype will be rolled out in July 2020 ?

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 28 Feb 2019 08:24

Rakesh wrote:@Sivab: Does that mean a prototype will be rolled out in July 2020 ?

It sounds like that is the best interpretation, since he says design has been completed. Note wording "aircraft is being realised and it should be ready in about 18 months". We also know they were working on Navy Mk2 before AF Mk2. Remember navy started the whole Mk2 thing and Cdr. Balaji was ADA chief. He must have been pushing Navy Mk2 along till Navy's cold feet during his tenure. He was very disappointed in a TV interview then and must be happy now.

Added later: See this link
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02 ... -back.html

‘We’re aiming for a first flight of the LCA Navy Mk.2 in late 2020 or early 2021. The detailed design will be complete by 2019. To save time, we’ve already ordered raw materials required,’ Balaji says.

Parrikar made this possible per the article. What a loss.

That article has lot of details. Probably add it to first post.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Feb 2019 08:38

Just a question here , Why don’t they push a standard design for navy and AF with mk2 ? If canards are good then why not have on naval variant and if rear tail is good why not have on iaf variant ?

We don’t see a Rafale or 29K with different configuration for navy and af

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Feb 2019 12:02

Austin wrote:Just a question here , Why don’t they push a standard design for navy and AF with mk2 ? If canards are good then why not have on naval variant and if rear tail is good why not have on iaf variant ?

We don’t see a Rafale or 29K with different configuration for navy and af

Could Mk2 tail plane be to compensate for weight of MLG and tail hook which are both behind the CG?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Feb 2019 12:41

N Tejas had MLG and Tail Hook but they had levcons

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Mar 2019 11:27

There is a report in the Paki forces td. a report from the Paki press that the Chins plan to transfer the Liaoning to Pak to counter the IN's carrier forces in the IOR.China is to build upto 6 CVs, most N-powered.The Liaoning iz being used mainly for trainig purposes.It makes sense for this transfer as it would obviate a PLAN CBG transiting the Malacca Straits.Instead, proxy Pak, reduced to a Chin province , will become along with the sale of 8 Yuan class AIP subs the de- facto IOR fleet of the PLAN.Costs for China isn't a problem, they're simply transferring their assets to Paki territory in a somewhat manner as the US stations hige forces in the Gulf states, except that the Pakis will be manning the assets.

Now this will coincide with thd development of Chin naval stealth birds.It's not going to happen tomorrow but at the earliest by the middle of the next decade.I seriously doubt that an SE NLCA will be a worthwhile proposition for the IN, with itsimited capability, unless my idea of leapfrogging the Mk-2 which will be an almost total redesign aerodynamically, a larger aircraft probably Gripen size or larger with canards et al, has stealth added to it in larger measure to become our LCA-S
perhaps the smallest stealth bird of all flying.
.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Mar 2019 12:33

Austin, a close coupled canard is not the same as a stabilizer.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Mar 2019 12:44

The liaoning transfer is hogwash, it will be painted with a moon and star but be fully managed by the Chinese. It is a good pretext to deploy their carrier in our waters

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Mar 2019 13:05

Austin wrote:Just a question here , Why don’t they push a standard design for navy and AF with mk2 ? If canards are good then why not have on naval variant and if rear tail is good why not have on iaf variant ?

We don’t see a Rafale or 29K with different configuration for navy and af

IMO, it purely has to do with the out of sync between the two programs. There is every indication that LCA takes precedence over NLCA and hence it doesn't get needed resources always. While MWF is a significant redesign, the mods in NLCA now we see over and above what we have known previously are more like further work to make existing design work. I still hope We may see navalised MWF in future. Currently the focus is just on to prove the design and deployment capability.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Mar 2019 16:22

Got it Jay , Indranil ... Thanks

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 01 Mar 2019 16:26

suryag wrote:The liaoning transfer is hogwash, it will be painted with a moon and star but be fully managed by the Chinese. It is a good pretext to deploy their carrier in our waters

Wrong thread! But, that'll never happen. Moon & star are enough reasons for IN to sink it. PLAN wouldn't risk it as it'd give them a bad name.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Mar 2019 17:04

Austin wrote:N Tejas had MLG and Tail Hook but they had levcons

new NLCA MK2 has Vortex flaps.

I am surprised to see no one has pointed it our so far.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 01 Mar 2019 18:10

Where? do you have a picture?

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 01 Mar 2019 18:28

Sorry if its getting repeated.. LCA NP5 in making at HAL.

Source: DFI.

As far as i understand, NP5 is LCA Navy mk2 / NLCA MK2 !!
@Rakesh,JayS,IR can confirm.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 01 Mar 2019 18:50

NP5 is NLCA mk1trainer.
NP3 and NP4 are NLCA mk2 single seater.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Mar 2019 19:09

ashishvikas wrote:Sorry if its getting repeated.. LCA NP5 in making at HAL.

Source: DFI.

As far as i understand, NP5 is LCA Navy mk2 / NLCA MK2 !!
@Rakesh,JayS,IR can confirm.

I cannot see the image.

See interview of Dr Deodhar in Aeromag posted above..? He says NLCA Mk2 prototype is under making and will be completed in 18 months.

Its been in making for a while, IIRC. ~~Its MK2. They scrapped plans for NP3/4 mid way and went for NP5/6. My memory is bit rusty.~~I think actually the progress on NLCA prototype MFG has forced ADA to continue with the existing design and they could not switch to N-MWF. Since NLCA program is being treated as TD only and given less resources and priority, it makes sense to keep changes to minimum. Dr Deodhar does say MK2 will be operationalized but it may be only be limited deployment to garner operational experience, which would feed the fine tuning of the 5th Gen TE Naval Fighter. But I could be totally wrong. Perhaps IR knows better. I actually completely forgot to ask ADA about NLCA.

What Dr Deodhar says is NLCA Mk2 will be stepping stone towards the final objective of making a Twin engine 5th Gen Naval fighter. ADA has already started working on such fighter. Its likely be modified AMCA. In this context perhaps the stabilators make more sense than canards.

PS: Just saw sankum's post.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Mar 2019 19:20

JTull wrote:Where? do you have a picture?

Last image in 1st post.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 01 Mar 2019 19:41

ashishvikas wrote:Sorry if its getting repeated.. LCA NP5 in making at HAL.

As far as i understand, NP5 is LCA Navy mk2 / NLCA MK2 !!

Sorry mate, I'm a novice in this matter, but I expect them to be on the leading edge of the wing. I don't see them on the NP5 fuselage.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 01 Mar 2019 19:43

JayS wrote:
JTull wrote:Where? do you have a picture?
Last image in 1st post.

Thanks.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 01 Mar 2019 20:17

ashishvikas wrote:Sorry if its getting repeated.. LCA NP5 in making at HAL.

Source: DFI.

As far as i understand, NP5 is LCA Navy mk2 / NLCA MK2 !!
@Rakesh,JayS,IR can confirm.

Image

https://i.imgur.com/hUitJBC_d.jpg?maxwi ... ity=medium

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Mar 2019 20:44

ashishvikas wrote:

Thanks. Looks like MK1 to me, from intake position vis-à-vis cockpit.

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 01 Mar 2019 20:55

^^ The image also seems to have the jigless assembly which the tenders were talking about? Quite interesting way of doing it.

It is part of the navy video, posted on DFI. The yellow jig rotates the whole ac.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAsw-Y6K7A watch at 10:32 onwards