MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 03 Mar 2019 10:36

1) it is also possible that the paki pilot was unconscious and could not speak converse with the villagers? 2) In the pic l , the other Mig 21 seems to turn back rather than pursue the F 16's. 3) already the Paki polity is divided over release of Wgco...Modi ji should add fuel to fire. "Humne Pak gov to chetavani de diya thi... hamare veer to wapas karo nahi to chati ka dhood pila denge. Abhi to chunti maari hai , usko wapis nahi kiya to 56 kilo ka ghoonsa denge". 4) i dont think the paki population is educated enough to understand who is a paki or indian. Its someones good luck and someones bad luck.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetak » 03 Mar 2019 10:50

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tandav » 03 Mar 2019 10:52

So far there is no independent confirmation of a F-16 shootdown. We will have to wait to see if IAF releases WC Abhinandan's and other's folks debrief. The more serious and unfortunate part is that as it stands today even though IAF has very good platforms in the air in terms of MKI, Mig 29s, M2000 its A2A missiles especially the radar guided missiles is not upto par and potentially inferior to PAF's 500 nos AIM 120C which has a 80%+ combat kill ratio. PAF is claiming that it was not the AIM 120 that brought down Abhinandan's MIG 21 but a JF-17 fired PL12/SD10 which is apparently based on R-77 itself. Which means now the IAF fights with a severe handicap of having to face combat proven American AIM-120C and potentially a rapidly improving Chinese BVR missile platform in the SD10 which showcases an emerging Chinese expertise in electronics/avionics/aerospace.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby manjgu » 03 Mar 2019 10:54

dont get suckered into PL12/SD10... pieces of metal with AIM 120c written on it usually dont fall from sky ?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 03 Mar 2019 10:55

Left unsaid is the IN around Kranchi. Thats what scared Immy.
And note the silent participation of naval officer in the conf.
Not everything is in open as it should not be.

The F16s were to attack the Brigade Ha tobavrng the deaths of Pak military's officers at Balakot.
The Mirage etc were a decoy to fly South. They did not cross LOC and the defenders were ordered not to give chase.
The F16s on other hand persisted and came 3km inside. And that's when the MiGs engaged.

There is a reason I wanted accurate timeline and location for this incident.
Wg Co Abhinandan had lock.on and fired.

Who fired the AMRAAM and at whom?
And why it broke up?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Prasad » 03 Mar 2019 10:55

Karan M wrote:
Austin wrote:Does EL 8222 have ability to jam modern AMRAAM C-5 class missile , I suppose AMRAAM will have LOJ feature built in ......is this a DRFM type jammer

Karan ?


Band coverage yes (X, Ku), techniques (classified for sure) but will employ deception, specific techniques not noise for HOJ to work...but basic issue is this, antenna are forward and aft so flank attacks by BVR missiles would still work and that's why BVR combat is all about position, position! And why internal SPJs wih 360 coverage are so prized.

To add, paf f16s do not have drfm. It was mentioned in that fmf page on the pentagon site.
Last edited by Prasad on 03 Mar 2019 11:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Baikul » 03 Mar 2019 10:59

I'm not sure that having a missile part proves our case. Having a missile part in possession is likely proof that a missile was 'involved' (fired, likely) and from an F-16. It isn't proof that an F-16 was brought down.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 11:00

tandav wrote:So far there is no independent confirmation of a F-16 shootdown.


India had an AWACS monitoring & states that a F-16 was shot down. It also operates a range of ESM aids which can assist in determining which fighter is flying and where. Its not in our best interest to tip our hand.

Who else would know? The Americans, lets say. Is it in their best interest to state they lost their premier (till F-35 arrives) fighter to a Russian one?
Or the Chinese? Would they want to take the Indian side?
The Pakistanis.. they will never admit it.

So whom exactly are we to get this independent confirmation from?

We will have to wait to see if IAF releases WC Abhinandan's and other's folks debrief. The more serious and unfortunate part is that as it stands today even though IAF has very good platforms in the air in terms of MKI, Mig 29s, M2000 its A2A missiles especially the radar guided missiles is not upto par and potentially inferior to PAF's 500 nos AIM 120C which has a 80%+ combat kill ratio. PAF is claiming that it was not the AIM 120 that brought down Abhinandan's MIG 21 but a JF-17 fired PL12/SD10 which is apparently based on R-77 itself. Which means now the IAF fights with a severe handicap of having to face combat proven American AIM-120C and potentially a rapidly improving Chinese BVR missile platform in the SD10 which showcases an emerging Chinese expertise in electronics/avionics/aerospace.


Tandav, if Indian R77s don't work, then how is "JF-17 fired PL12/SD10 which is apparently based on R-77 itself" going to be superior and how does "SD10 which showcases an emerging Chinese expertise in electronics/avionics/aerospace", matter?

My point is yes, there are accounts online which state:
1. India's original 1st batch of R77s had an issue
2. Russia started making R77s for itself only in 2016

Yet, our MiG-29s were tested with R77s, IN MiG-29s had R77s delivered.
So, you see the discrepancy, not everything will be available, or explained publicly.

Second, India also has Mica's and given some time, will also have Astra's apart from the SARH AA-10 series.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 11:01

Prasad wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Band coverage yes (X, Ku), techniques (classified for sure) but will employ deception, specific techniques not noise for HOJ to work...but basic issue is this, antenna are forward and aft so flank attacks by BVR missiles would still work and that's why BVR combat is all about position, position! And why internal SPJs wih 360 coverage are so prized.

To add, paf f16s do not have drfm. Robot mentioned in that fmf page on the pengalin site.


They did acquire DRFM jammers later.
https://www.harris.com/sites/default/fi ... asheet.pdf

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rahul M » 03 Mar 2019 11:04

manjgu wrote:1) Gurus...in the image of tracks provided by chopseyturvy... it seems there 4 F 16 on cap over Mangla Dam? i found this interesting. Did they provide 24*7 cover to the dam? or was it only for the duration of the Pak ingress mission? are they expecting we will have a crack at the dam?? 2) I think Modi can rub it into Paki by saying 'we told Pak Govt to return Wgco else there is a bigger danda on the way'. I think all talk of Nobel Prize for Immy will vanish and PA and govt will find it hard to hide their faces.

mangla is HQ I Strike Corps, TSPA.

It is logical to expect reprisal from India on a major military formation, given that they had targeted ours.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 03 Mar 2019 11:04

Tandav, We have Abhi audio of locking on F16 and firing at it.

We believe engine flame iutbwhich brought down Nachiketa happened here to. The MiGb21 shows bullet holes.

The IAF did not fire the R77 as formation was on other side of LOC.

Off course Pak will claim victory.

And people in India will believe them. We can't force you to believe IAF.

And remember our guy is safe while theirs is dead. I guess Abhi shot in the air and that pilot ejected from the sound.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Raveen » 03 Mar 2019 11:05

Baikul wrote:I'm not sure that having a missile part proves our case. Having a missile part in possession is likely proof that a missile was 'involved' (fired, likely) and from an F-16. It isn't proof that an F-16 was brought down.

No one said the missle was related to the f-16 being brought down
It just bursts the porki lie bubble of f-16s not being involved - they lied, they have no credibility

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 03 Mar 2019 11:07

Tandav you think IAF should just surrender hearing about this 500 AIM missiles?
What's your point?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 03 Mar 2019 11:11

Baikul wrote:I'm not sure that having a missile part proves our case. Having a missile part in possession is likely proof that a missile was 'involved' (fired, likely) and from an F-16. It isn't proof that an F-16 was brought down.


AIM 120C parts show F16 was used that's all. And US has issued diplomatic papers on this matter.

Who said it means F 16 was brought down
We trust our pilot who said he locked on the F 16 and fired. Usually an R 73 kg warhead warhead destroys the bogey.
But you can believe Pak propaganda.

Only request you not to be here.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 03 Mar 2019 11:17

It is best left to the pilot in combat to decide which AAM he wants to fire , Bison fired R-73 and F-16 fired AMRAAM , Could the Bison fire the R-77 or F-16 fire AIM 9L may be they could may be not.

Pilots are trained on which weapons to best use during a combat situation , Nether of us were in the cockpit to know for sure which was the best weapon to fire in that engagement , Neither of us are qualified to speak on behalf of the pilot.

Our Winco Abhinandan is 14 years experienced pilot in the IAF spent time on MKI and Bison perhaps on other types ....He would know pro and cons of every weapon that he uses and the enemy has plus the type he was dealing with i.e F-16 , Using Weapons is a more complex game then internet and brochure would tell us and how to evade an enemy weapon fired at you is equally daunting but pilots are trained for this.

What is certain is Bison got the kill via R-73 , PAF wing man got the bison via AMRAAM , 2nd AMRAAM fired on Bison Wingman managed to evade it which should be achievement in itself.
Last edited by Austin on 03 Mar 2019 11:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby krishna_krishna » 03 Mar 2019 11:21

ramana wrote:Same with the AMRAAM. Who did it fail?
Did Indian ECM defeat it?
It's a double blow to US made aircraft and weaponry.
Also what were the LGBs? Were these also US made Paveway II?


Regarding AMRAAM, here is the open source information and if we logically extend it to this incident.

"AMRAAM uses two-stage guidance when fired at long range. The aircraft passes data to the missile just before launch, giving it information about the location of the target aircraft from the launch point and its direction and speed. The missile uses this information to fly on an interception course to the target using its built-in inertial navigation system (INS). This information is generally obtained using the launching aircraft's radar, although it could come from an infra-red search and track system, from a data link from another fighter aircraft, or from an AWACS aircraft.

After launch, if the firing aircraft or surrogate continues to track the target, periodic updates—such as changes in the target's direction and speed—are sent from the launch aircraft to the missile, allowing the missile to adjust its course, via actuation of the rear fins, so that it is able to close to a self-homing distance where it will be close enough to "catch" the target aircraft in the basket (the missile's radar field of view in which it will be able to lock onto the target aircraft, unassisted by the launch aircraft).

Not all armed services using the AMRAAM have elected to purchase the mid-course update option, which limits AMRAAM's effectiveness in some scenarios"


Now here is the important piece during terminal phase :

Once the missile closes to self-homing distance, it turns on its active radar seeker and searches for the target aircraft. If the target is in or near the expected location, the missile will find it and guide itself to the target from this point. If the missile is fired at short range, within visual range (WVR) or the near BVR, it can use its active seeker just after launch, making the missile truly "fire and forget"

================================

So looks like the missile was fired near BVR/WVR range which helped missile to activate its radar seeker and lock on the mig that got hit.

The other one that did not get hit, I believe was further aways and it got lost in mid course update /massa INS were programmed to not work accurately outside certain area / we were able to jam the mid course update via Elta jammer and so missile waged off the target and destroyed itself

================================
Also what were the LGBs? Were these also US made Paveway II?

Please see the link I posted on page # 2 of this thread on weapons as part of upgrade package that was announced (bak shish to porkis) in item # 2 upgrade weapons :

"1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance"

(Again GPS guidance failed or massa must have some filter, remember during Kargil days pilots openly shared that GPS signals blinked during kargil days)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Baikul » 03 Mar 2019 11:25

ramana wrote:
Baikul wrote:I'm not sure that having a missile part proves our case. Having a missile part in possession is likely proof that a missile was 'involved' (fired, likely) and from an F-16. It isn't proof that an F-16 was brought down.


AIM 120C parts show F16 was used that's all. And US has issued diplomatic papers on this matter.

Who said it means F 16 was brought down
We trust our pilot who said he locked on the F 16 and fired. Usually an R 73 kg warhead warhead destroys the bogey.
But you can believe Pak propaganda.

Only request you not to be here.


If my making a point that attempts to adhere to the title of this thread is construed as believing Paki propaganda, may I suggest we all cool down?

But fair enough, you're the mod, I won't comment here past this.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tandav » 03 Mar 2019 11:31

manjgu wrote:dont get suckered into PL12/SD10... pieces of metal with AIM 120c written on it usually dont fall from sky ?


Explanation: PAF F-16 fired an AIM120C which narrowly missed ABhi's wingman and landed on our side. Abhi's MIG-21 was brought down by the SD10 is the story that PAF is putting out... it has an advantage in marketing JF-17+SD10 platform to export customers who are looking for F-16+AIM120C type capability.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 11:39

So wait, why should we care for or buy this story? Does the IAF say there was a JF-17 anywhere? No. Can a JF-17 fire AMRAAMs? No.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 03 Mar 2019 11:41

And all we know is Abhi's plane crashed. Flameout? AIM-9M? Gun ammo? AMRAAM? ... now you want to bring in SD-10? Why all this worry about what Pakis say?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tandav » 03 Mar 2019 11:52

I do not believe anything PAF/Pakistan says, their denial means nothing they have no credibility. I have been scouring the internet for F-16 wreckage in the hopes of finding some evidence that sticks, this I have not found as yet. I am very inclined to believe IAF but hard evidence/wreckage and Abhi's gun camera footage all fell into Pakistan, this is very dissatisfying. I am unhappy that inspite of IAF full alert and a juicy 24 aircraft package opportunity we did not swat down 5-6 PAF planes in this particular engagement and bury the PAF forever, that's the kind of dominance I expected the IAF to have. Jingo is never happy.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bharadwaj » 03 Mar 2019 12:01

The su-30s can swat down the solahs whenever they want... this has been shown in many exercises. However there are rules of engagement plus there are indications in the media that it was only the migs which were at the actual merge. The porkis and their chamchas in the western media can claim whatever they want but the IAF knows the truth- that they pasted the life blood of the PAF with a mig-21.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 03 Mar 2019 12:08

Tandav you are not listening. And you want them to fight as per your view.
They said the 22 planes did not cross LOC. No orders to shoot if they are on otherside.
2 F 16s did come 3 km.
Abhi went after one and shot it down.

Anything else is bokwas.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Zynda » 03 Mar 2019 12:20

I think per the IAF press statement, JF-17 planes were part of the package along with Mirage-3s & F-16s.

I do think that PAF cleared up major identifiable parts of the F-16 as soon as it went down. Perhaps would have "sanitized" the area wrt information, which may include, confiscating cell phones of the locals so that relevant info does not leak in to SM. So far, only there is one video of the wreckage where PAF personnels are clearing wreckage debris & one EFT can be seen which seem to belong to F-16. Is it a conclusive proof of IAF downing F-16? Perhaps not. But I do think if IAF says that F-16 was shot down, it happened. It is up to IAF to release the proof as it when chooses. Also if Abhi's 21 had gun cam recorder, that footage would be with PAF and probably will never see light of the day.

A small CT thought, it could be possible that there may be requests from LM/GOTUS not to release proof of F-16 kill.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby tandav » 03 Mar 2019 12:28

Bharadwaj wrote:The su-30s can swat down the solahs whenever they want... this has been shown in many exercises. However there are rules of engagement plus there are indications in the media that it was only the migs which were at the actual merge. The porkis and their chamchas in the western media can claim whatever they want but the IAF knows the truth- that they pasted the life blood of the PAF with a mig-21.


MKI's/Migs on CAP from 40000ft Mach 2 should have been initiated a decisive 20+ R-77 salvo / hammer blow at the offensive package RoE be damned. The moment PAF crossed 10KM no fly zone (IAF should have made it 30KM buffer due to high alert status) on their side of the LOC they had to be considered hostile and made to pay. We should have got atleast 4-5 PAF kills in this combat and not just one... couple of JF-17s couple of F-16s and throw in a Mirage for flavor. This way Pakistan would have had to hide 5 wrecks and not just 1.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby venkat_r » 03 Mar 2019 12:36

It is very important to understand the difference and credibility of IAF and Pakistani propaganda. Official word of IAF carries lot of credibility and is good for us to believe and understand what happened that day. PAF or the Pakistani side there are going to be too much misinformation and trying to tie their story to a denial. Let’s just move on and celebrate the way IAF defended the Indian airspace and countered attacked drowning the F16. PAF and Pakistani people almost link the F16 to their manhood and it is nice to see that such things getting punctured.

Tandavji, just take what comes, instead of woulda,coulda... victory however it comes is still sweet

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby pankajs » 03 Mar 2019 12:42

tandav wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:The su-30s can swat down the solahs whenever they want... this has been shown in many exercises. However there are rules of engagement plus there are indications in the media that it was only the migs which were at the actual merge. The porkis and their chamchas in the western media can claim whatever they want but the IAF knows the truth- that they pasted the life blood of the PAF with a mig-21.


MKI's/Migs on CAP from 40000ft Mach 2 should have been initiated a decisive 20+ R-77 salvo / hammer blow at the offensive package RoE be damned. The moment PAF crossed 10KM no fly zone (IAF should have made it 30KM buffer due to high alert status) on their side of the LOC they had to be considered hostile and made to pay. We should have got atleast 4-5 PAF kills in this combat and not just one... couple of JF-17s couple of F-16s and throw in a Mirage for flavor. This way Pakistan would have had to hide 5 wrecks and not just 1.

Who makes that call, the pilot on the fly on his own defying the entire decision making chain. RoE after all must have been negotiated between the two countries and must have the blessing of the Airforces, babudom and the respective political setup.

Where will it end once things like this that are often negotiated between countries start getting flouted at the execution level. Not worth.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetak » 03 Mar 2019 12:47

pankajs wrote:
tandav wrote:
MKI's/Migs on CAP from 40000ft Mach 2 should have been initiated a decisive 20+ R-77 salvo / hammer blow at the offensive package RoE be damned. The moment PAF crossed 10KM no fly zone (IAF should have made it 30KM buffer due to high alert status) on their side of the LOC they had to be considered hostile and made to pay. We should have got atleast 4-5 PAF kills in this combat and not just one... couple of JF-17s couple of F-16s and throw in a Mirage for flavor. This way Pakistan would have had to hide 5 wrecks and not just 1.

Who makes that call, the pilot on the fly on his own defying the entire decision making chain. RoE after all must have been negotiated between the two countries and must have the blessing of the Airforces, babudom and the respective political setup.

Where will it end once things like this that are often negotiated between countries start getting flouted at the execution level. Not worth.


RoE is only during normal times.

Following balakot, the normal RoE has gone out of the window.

All bets are off.

But both are careful about climbing up the escalation ladder, the pakis much more than India.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby arshyam » 03 Mar 2019 12:50

Actions based on "RoE be damned" will be tantamount to insubordination. Perhaps par for the course in PAF and other irregular orgs, but not in a disciplined force like the IAF. So let's take all this "why did the IAF not do this or that, I know better" type posts and throw it out. IAF said what happened, and that's that.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 03 Mar 2019 12:54

Fear of iaf masking approach under civil transit ac like the idfaf did is what keeps the paf awake every night now

But then commerce dictates the eastern border has to open soon in the air

And then who is going to lose sleep :mrgreen:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetak » 03 Mar 2019 12:58

looks like we have many traitors at home

article from today's paki newspaper yawn




India refuses to share proof of air strikes in Balakot



Some Indian opposition leaders have asked the government to share evidence of the strikes.

NEW DELHI: A top Indian minister said on Saturday the government would not share proof that “a very large number of militants” were killed in air strikes inside Pakistan this week, after doubts were raised there were any casualties in the attack that stoked tensions between the two countries.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 03 Mar 2019 13:01

The monkey trap oppn will walk into is trying to
Run down the strikes

And sure as hell they are bent on stepping on that ied :mrgreen:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby pankajs » 03 Mar 2019 13:10

chetak wrote:
pankajs wrote:Who makes that call, the pilot on the fly on his own defying the entire decision making chain. RoE after all must have been negotiated between the two countries and must have the blessing of the Airforces, babudom and the respective political setup.

Where will it end once things like this that are often negotiated between countries start getting flouted at the execution level. Not worth.


RoE is only during normal times.

Following balakot, the normal RoE has gone out of the window.

All bets are off.

But both are careful about climbing up the escalation ladder, the pakis much more than India.

Sorry this is a BIG misunderstanding.

Even the Balakot decision was taken at the POLITICAL level and not by some shock-jock on the spur of the moment. It was executed by the babudom and the forces. We are in normal times in that regards.

A change to the RoE HAS to come from the political setup. Any change to the established procesures/parameters have to come from up the *appropriate* level in decision chain.

All bets are NOT off NOT by a long shot. Why else are people complaining about a lack of action/follow up on the PAF raid? Some are talking of a pause [yours truly] and some of a completion of the current phase.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetak » 03 Mar 2019 13:16

arshyam wrote:Actions based on "RoE be damned" will be tantamount to insubordination. Perhaps par for the course in PAF and other irregular orgs, but not in a disciplined force like the IAF. So let's take all this "why did the IAF not do this or that, I know better" type posts and throw it out. IAF said what happened, and that's that.


Hostilities have broken out.

uncertain days ahead.

unexpected situations possible/probable.

the operational response will not even look at RoE and is situation dependent.

The MiG Bis was in hot pursuit.

RoE??

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Mar 2019 13:41

Aditya_V wrote:Ok. Another thing it highlights is due to geography. We don't have too many airbases in the extreme North whereas the PAF is mostly based out of Northern bases. Whereas in the southern sectors from Sirsa onwards we have numerous airbases whereas Pakis just have Rafiqui Jacocabad Bholari and Maripur. So PAF will always be able to throw more planes in the J&K area. That's why they always try and focus on Pathankot. We must find a way of like adding fighters at Gaggal airport etc to be bring more planes to the fight in J&K.

In the interim please we need some Akash/spyder in that area? It is it dangerous to use them for fear of fratricide?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Singha » 03 Mar 2019 13:43

Civilian planes have no iff

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby chetak » 03 Mar 2019 13:49

twitter


Posted by a US officer doing the Indian Defence Services Staff College, Wellington in a whatsapp group there

Image

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 03 Mar 2019 14:12

Early Favourite Winner of ?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Bart S » 03 Mar 2019 14:13

tandav wrote:So far there is no independent confirmation of a F-16 shootdown. We will have to wait to see if IAF releases WC Abhinandan's and other's folks debrief. The more serious and unfortunate part is that as it stands today even though IAF has very good platforms in the air in terms of MKI, Mig 29s, M2000 its A2A missiles especially the radar guided missiles is not upto par and potentially inferior to PAF's 500 nos AIM 120C which has a 80%+ combat kill ratio. PAF is claiming that it was not the AIM 120 that brought down Abhinandan's MIG 21 but a JF-17 fired PL12/SD10 which is apparently based on R-77 itself. Which means now the IAF fights with a severe handicap of having to face combat proven American AIM-120C and potentially a rapidly improving Chinese BVR missile platform in the SD10 which showcases an emerging Chinese expertise in electronics/avionics/aerospace.


LOL. Nice double standards there. IAF's statements need 'independent confirmation' (whatever that means, who will confirm it, the Pakis?) and Paki claims are to be taken at face value.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Austin » 03 Mar 2019 14:17

What kind of SAM/Radar does Pakistan have if IAF fighter intrude into 20 km arcoss LOC in some combat situation .......I recollect PA fired Mistral on chopper full of journalist when we were near IB of Kutch , Atlantique shoot out.

I think in future strike on Terrorist Targets which MEA is hard pressed to emphasis any Indo-Pak encounter would happen around 10-20 km across LOC of either side.

Strike too would be limited to stand off weapon fired perhaps at their near max range


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