MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 03 Mar 2019 23:24

UlanBatori wrote: An aside question: Why did they call a Mach 2 elegant plane, called The Pencil in Poland, a BISON? Who came up with that name? It is 90 percent of the bad press that this terrific plane gets from ungrateful Indians (I mean the public/media).

Bison = son of bis. The Mig 21 Bison is upgrade of the Mig 21 Bis

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2019 23:25

Air Marshal KK Nohwar Explains How Wg Cdr Abhinandan Shot Down PAF's F 16 Jet in Dog Fight

Ramana , UB watch , AVM KK Nohwar has nicely explained in the video on dog fight

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 03 Mar 2019 23:30

btw, RoE cannot be static once the PAF ingress happened, its not defensive any more

Here’s what happened on the day when PAF jets were chased out by IAF planes – Minute by minute details

9:52 AM – Ten F-16 jets take off from three Airbases in Pakistan, which is detected by Indian NETRA and Northern Air Command. The F-16 jets come in three groups and merge in attack formation near Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir (PoK).

9:54 AM – In order to intercept the 10 F-16 jets from Pakistan, India scrambles two MiG-21 Bisons jets and four Sukhoi MKi jets.

9: 58 AM – First alert is sounded by India to Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter jets, warning them that they are about to encroach Indian airspace and asks them to “evade”.

9: 59 AM – Second alert is sounded by India to PAF with IFAC protocols. Pakistan Air Force does not respond.

10:00 AM – Pakistan’s 10 F-16 jets violate Indian airspace in swarm merge attack formation (which is tactical in nature).

10:01 AM – A heavy surface-to-air ground artillery and a valiant fight from India’s Sukhoi and MiG fighter jets forces nine F-16 jets to deviate path. Within 1 kilometre of airspace, the nine PAF jets return to PoK.

10:02 AM - One Pakistani F-16 jet enters deep inside the Indian territory and covers nearly 3 kms to possibly destroy an oil storage at an Army Brigade HQ.

10:03 AM – One MiG 21 Bison (flown by Wing Commander Abhinandan Vardhaman) and one IAF Sukoi continue to engage the F16 in a dogfight manoeuvre called “Defensive split”. While the MiG 21 was in the front, the F-16 was in the middle and was followed by the Sukhoi. Firing from Sukoi prompted the F-16 to flee the scene using a dog fight manoeuvre caller ‘wingover’.

10:04 AM – The Sukhoi jet stays back and hovers around the oil storage at the Army Brigade HQ to protect it. Meanwhile, the MiG-21 Bison, being flown by Wg Cdr Abhinandan, chases F-16 jet out of Indian territory. While chasing the PAF jet, Abhinandan engages the F-16 in a lock-in position for his onboard R-73 air to air missile to be deployed.

{maybe for the Su-30 the option was either hot pursuit and leave the flanks open for another attempt by any sneakers at the oil storage or stay put on CAP on the asset}

It is to be noted here that Abhinandan could have returned to base at this point. However, by doing so, the missile lock-in would have disengaged (due to out of radar coverage) and he would not have been able to shoot the F-16 down. Hence, the brave pilot decided to chase it down to PoK and shoot it.

10:08 AM – IAF pilot Abhinandan engages his R73 missile that hits the F-16 and brings it down.

10:08 AM – After shooting down the PAF jet, the Wing Commander performs a highly dangerous manoeuvre called “High-g barrel roll”. The IAF pilot had to do this as he had been in the vicinity of PoK surface to air artillery and surface-to-air missile (SAM). The move requires him to vertically climb the jet at high speed and reverse its direction towards India. While he was performing the move, either a SAM or air artillery hit his plane, bringing it down.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 03 Mar 2019 23:32

Well, This attack seems like a good plan. A swarm attack, with the swarm to pull the heavy fighters down south towards Pathankot using a large swarm of mixed value fighters feigning an attack, while a pack of capable (around 8 f-16s) form the strike group. Looking at the timings given in the map, looks like an alert AWACS was able to marshall a quick motley of defenders along the LOC airspace. The main body seems to have been along Jammu where they were challenged by 4x SU30s and 2x M2000, vectored in by AWACS (Map says A50, Other reports say Netra, Who knows). The entire event seems to have taken place in about 25 minutes, but judging from take off and formation time it would be safe to say about another 10-15 minutes more. Our reaction was fairly quick, I am not sure how an air battle would have turned out for both parties. Safe to say SU-30 would have bloodied its hands. Abhi has managed to surprise all parties, taking on and taking down an F-16. Pakis don't seem to think of all the What ifs. They didnt think about the whatif at Kargil and they surely did not think 'What if Mig 21 challenges us'. They still managed to drop some bombs, which they claim intentionally missed the target due to last minute intentional withdrawal of the target (as claimed by Maj Gen Gafool).

This attack will be deeply studied for the use of swarm tactics by all parties. China esp and more so by Indians on how to thwart a more capable swarm. This will go into the training manuals for all including AWACS operators. This also shows the limitations of an IADS in such situations, where they cannot be used due to civilian traffic (at least that is what we are told) or restrictive RoE. This brings to light the perils of assuming that future air battles will largely be in the BVR space, looks like the gun will stay on planes for some more time.

There will remain many many unanswered questions regarding this event. But for now its safe to say : History has been made.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2019 23:43

i wonder how the JSF with its "manouverability is irrelevant" and reliance on "look first, shoot first" BVR oriented ansible playbook would fare in these kind of realistic ROE ? japan, soko, greece, turkiye, qatar...anybody but khan out on a bush war would have to operate in similar ROE where bvr use dicey in hot peace fights over contested borders. you can see the enemy forming up and coming from far out and take up a blocking position but weapons allowed only after they cross over briefly and start darting back.

how does the JSF compare in WVR ACM vs a late model F-16 block50/52? I am sure it has spherical maws and better countermeasures but can it climb and turn with a F-solah and land some hits of its own?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Mar 2019 00:20

Austin wrote:Air Marshal KK Nohwar Explains How Wg Cdr Abhinandan Shot Down PAF's F 16 Jet in Dog Fight
Ramana , UB watch , AVM KK Nohwar has nicely explained in the video on dog fight

Nice but empty. The Media Announcer and his sidekick are awful! The Air Marshal is nice.
I learned that NVA ground control positioned MiG-21s to present front-on aspect to F-4s (meaning very fast closing speeds). Since mijjiles don't work like that, I assume that they attacked using guns? How that is relevant here I do not know: surely modern F-16 radar (or the Paki AWACs) could see the MiG. Also, the R-73 is called all-aspect, but since the MiG was heading straight for the F-16 that has no meaning here. R-73 is mentioned as close-range which means the MiG caught up with the F-16 by sheer speed and sent the R-73 up its musharraf.

Now for the WingCdr's treatment in Terroristan:
a) So he DID have an injury to his face, eye seems hurt. Now guys, LOOK carefully at the TV performance released by Pakistan: there is no injury on left side of face, certainly not on right[/b. So that speaker is **NOT** Abhinandan. Then it makes no difference WHAT he is said to have said.
b) Air Marshal tut-tutted and nailed home the fact that the Paki Air Marshal's son is kaput, and "by his own people". Injuries inflicted on him by his own people. The other guy is also dead, apparently.
Nothing else in that video, rest is all blah-blah.
Specifically, **NOTHING*** on how the MiG came to get downed. Is India bluntly stating that the MiG was hit by an AMRAAM etc? Did not hear that. If there was a missile strike why is the WCdr not injured much worse?
So our debris-impact theory stands.
If it was Paki missile it was illegal (although arguably defensive if fired on their side of LOC). But there is no evidence that it was a missile hit. We need to hear from the WCDr on what happened. I am sure the Indian AWACs crew knows, and ground controllers know.
**************************************************************
Summing up, the Air Marshal seems to have read PeeAref.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Mar 2019 00:29

And HIYAR is confirmation, from the Most Honest and Pious of All!!

Bakistan Denies That It Downed Indian Plane
"All our mijjiles were duds!"

astal · Post by **astal** » 04 Mar 2019 01:23

Bishwa wrote:
UlanBatori wrote: An aside question: Why did they call a Mach 2 elegant plane, called The Pencil in Poland, a BISON? Who came up with that name? It is 90 percent of the bad press that this terrific plane gets from ungrateful Indians (I mean the public/media).

Bison = son of bis. The Mig 21 Bison is upgrade of the Mig 21 Bis

I think Bison is word-play on bi-sonic given that IAF also operated the tri-Sonics.

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Mar 2019 01:53

Singha wrote:i wonder how the JSF with its "manouverability is irrelevant" and reliance on "look first, shoot first" BVR oriented ansible playbook would fare in these kind of realistic ROE ? japan, soko, greece, turkiye, qatar...anybody but khan out on a bush war would have to operate in similar ROE where bvr use dicey in hot peace fights over contested borders. you can see the enemy forming up and coming from far out and take up a blocking position but weapons allowed only after they cross over briefly and start darting back.

how does the JSF compare in WVR ACM vs a late model F-16 block50/52? I am sure it has spherical maws and better countermeasures but can it climb and turn with a F-solah and land some hits of its own?

Because of JSF stealth, the opposing jet wouldn't know it is coming, however JSF would know where it's target is and can potentially move on it's blind side( probably fly under the target..). This allows it to have the first shot.

If both of them are aware of each other, then I guess it could be anyone.

However in case of Khan, they would have their usual if the enemy comes with X km, it get a Aim120. Khan always starts the war, so there is nothing like "LoC".

We tried to be the good guys by letting PAF cross the LC. Even then, once the first LGB was dropped, we should have dropped the PAF jets flying in PoK with BVR.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 04 Mar 2019 02:08

nam wrote:
Because of JSF stealth, the opposing jet wouldn't know it is coming, however JSF would know where it's target is and can potentially move on it's blind side( probably fly under the target..). This allows it to have the first shot.

If both of them are aware of each other, then I guess it could be anyone.

However in case of Khan, they would have their usual if the enemy comes with X km, it get a Aim120. Khan always starts the war, so there is nothing like "LoC".

We tried to be the good guys by letting PAF cross the LC. Even then, once the first LGB was dropped, we should have dropped the PAF jets flying in PoK with BVR.

Again the battle is being tailored for the plane and not vice versa. It seems to be a given that F-35 is not a dog fighter. with the Change is circumstances it is not a given that BVR battles are the only kind that are going to happen in the future. Note that IAF gave 2 warnings to approaching PAF as per international rules. It would be hard pressed to give such warnings without degrading stealth. So it may mean shoot first then warn, which may not be acceptable in all situations, for e.g. air interdictions

This battle is an interesting study on all these factors. There was a comment that S-400 would have preempted such a move from pakis. I am not so sure anymore. I am still not very certain how come no SAMs were fired, may be because of civil aviation, may be not. More details are needed

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Mar 2019 03:28

1. Ultimately it was speed of response, and bravery in persisting with the lock, using superior speed, is what won.
2. The others (Su-30MKI etc) flapped their wings and squawked at the Pakis but otherwise there is no evidence that they did diddly.
2. Or there should have been 9 Pakis down instead of 1.
3. "We repelled them after they had dropped their bombs" is hardly a win.
4. "They were not able to stay on station long enough to guide their bombs to target" is a semi-win, but probably happened because WCdr A. got a missile lock on the 2-seater that was pointing the lasers and forced them to do a downhill skiing exit.
5. But the bombs did land and (probably) did damage to potties etc that I am not going to ask here.
6. Were they GPS-guided, it would have been far worse.
7. There was no effective SAR possible.
8. Unless the helo crash was one - in which case you have to wonder how they had SAM terrorists stationed to anticipate helos coming low, 10 minutes out of Srinagar.
9. Remember the Mig crash(es) in 1999 as well. So things are not all so one-sided yet.
10. It could just as easily have been 2 PAF pilots happy and gloating, and 1 IAF pilot beaten to death. If they had all landed in "Kashmir Valley" with its so pro-Indian namak-haraams.
Not

, just saying maybe enough gloating.
Clearly this time ATM was not on Pakis' side. They need to ponder that carefully if there is any capability between their ears.

Manas · Post by **Manas** » 04 Mar 2019 03:35

UlanBatori wrote:
Austin wrote:A

Now for the WingCdr's treatment in Terroristan:
a) So he DID have an injury to his face, eye seems hurt. Now guys, LOOK carefully at the TV performance released by Pakistan: there is no injury on left side of face, certainly not on right[/b. So that speaker is **NOT** Abhinandan. Then it makes no difference WHAT he is said to have said.
b) Air Marshal tut-tutted and nailed home the fact that the Paki Air Marshal's son is kaput, and "by his own people". Injuries inflicted on him by his own people. The other guy is also dead, apparently.
Nothing else in that video, rest is all blah-blah.

**************************************************************
Summing up, the Air Marshal seems to have read PeeAref.

Unless i am mixing up different pictures/videos of Wing Co it seemed like the video of him while in TSP custody being "asked questions" his handle bar mustache had been trimmed and he seemed freshly/shaven cheeks. Obviously he had his full handle bar mustache when he crossed the border at Wagah.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 04 Mar 2019 03:35

Based on this outcome I feel we missed a step by not working on an improved Mig-21 - look at lower landing speeds with canards, modified air intakes, owning the design with CFD, look at mating with a western engine before starting with the LCA.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Mar 2019 03:40

Manas wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:
Unless i am mixing up different pictures/videos of Wing Co it seemed like the video of him while in TSP custody being "asked questions" his handle bar mustache had been trimmed and he seemed freshly/shaven cheeks. Obviously he had his full handle bar mustache when he crossed the border at Wagah.

Some kind person pls check into this, and post screen shot (towards the END of the "interview" they show the left side of his face) with screen shot from "Indian Pilot being arrested" where his left eye is swollen, he has two streams of blood flowing, skin is obviously lifted off his eyebrow from a cut, his hair is gray-streaked - and also photos from when he comes into Wagah, at which point there is no identify question. Need to compare these three pics to decide. There is a small chance that the Arrest video was posted laterally inverted (can that happen?) so left-right is mixed, but I can tell you, there was **NO** blemish on the right side of his face in the "Interview"

This is may be as brilliant Pakiness as the Gujranwala Referendum of 2000, when Musharraf's flunkies cheated so well that they reported him winning 143 % of the total electorate.

nam · Post by **nam** » 04 Mar 2019 03:43

We had superior kit in the battle. Jets with radars which could lock on multiple targets at once. If not for WC Abhi resolve to kick the Paks, we might have had a scenario where PAF got away with no losses after dropping the LGB.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Mar 2019 03:48

^ and my nasty take on that is the rest of the pack were too tied into the Net-Centric Warfare/System of Systems / Team Effort thinking and waited for approval that never came. There was not much thought of establishing total air superiority on the other side of the Yellow Sea.

Mind you, we had 8 planes to their 24! BUT... we had 14 brave pilots to their 48 cowards... and of course, their missiles were all duds.

Hope NaMo authorizes strike packages to take out all their missile sites and runways... then bring the planes home to sit and laugh because ..

THEIR MISSILES ARE DUDS AND THEY ARE NUKE-NUDE!!!

Ppl here just don't believe the careful research and thorough peer review done in 2002 b4 BRF authors of that time published "HAS PAKISTAN LOST ITS NUCLEAR WEAPONS?" hain? Now your generation sees it for yourselves.
Plus the clear demo that POK is REALLY Pak-OPPRESSED Kashmir - they beat their own downed Air force pilots to death!!! Have you ever heard of any other country doing that?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Mar 2019 03:55

Vivek K wrote:Based on this outcome I feel we missed a step by not working on an improved Mig-21 - look at lower landing speeds with canards, modified air intakes, owning the design with CFD, look at mating with a western engine before starting with the LCA.

You are being a Prof Prodyut Das.
I would suggest you go into your foxhole before IR or JayS or some other notable noteworthies decide to "Spice" you.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 04 Mar 2019 03:56

UB ji you are reading too much into this without full details being there. After looking at the Wingco Singam's Mig21 picture it doesnt seem he was hit by the AIM more your engine theory or ground fire, additionally, we have one more AIM120 debris which means the Pakis had fired two of them. Now for the rest of the wolf pack it is possible that Air control told them that they would walk into a trap if they chased the others and now the question of using the available BVRs could also be dictated by other conditions which we dont know right now.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 04 Mar 2019 03:56

Karan M wrote:Even unclassified data for that matter constitutes OSINT.
Let's not discuss all this now.

Yep, Nathan Ruser et. al. on OSINT:
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/mappi ... elligence/

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Mar 2019 03:58

UlanBatori wrote:^ and my nasty take on that is the rest of the pack were too tied into the Net-Centric Warfare/System of Systems / Team Effort thinking and waited for approval that never came. There was not much thought of establishing total air superiority on the other side of the Yellow Sea.

Mind you, we had 8 planes to their 24! BUT... we had 14 brave pilots to their 48 cowards... and of course, their missiles were all duds.
Hope NaMo authorizes strike packages to take out all their missile sites and runways... then bring the planes home to sit and laugh because ..

THEIR MISSILES ARE DUDS AND THEY ARE NUKE-NUDE!!!

Ppl here just don't believe the careful research and thorough peer review done in 2002 b4 BRF authors of that time published "HAS PAKISTAN LOST ITS NUCLEAR WEAPONS?" hain? Now your generation sees it for yourselves.
Plus the clear demo that POK is REALLY Pak-OPPRESSED Kashmir - they beat their own downed Air force pilots to death!!! Have you ever heard of any other country doing that?

Or may be that our rules of engagements were that engage only if PAF crosses LOC. The one that crossed got its 72 but in the process the WingCO in the process also drifted across in the process of evading the mizzile....

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Mar 2019 04:00

suryag wrote:UB ji you are reading too much into this without full details being there. After looking at the Wingco Singam's Mig21 picture it doesnt seem he was hit by the AIM more your engine theory or ground fire, additionally, we have one more AIM120 debris which means the Pakis had fired two of them. Now for the rest of the wolf pack it is possible that Air control told them that they would walk into a trap if they chased the others and now the question of using the available BVRs could also be dictated by other conditions which we dont know right now.

When you say ground fire I presume you are alluding to SAMs?

Najunamar · Post by **Najunamar** » 04 Mar 2019 04:30

Also, who was the wingmate of the killed PAF pilot? There are rumors he may have been a trainee from Jordan and the Jordan king is pressuring Pakis to stay mum on the subject..

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Mar 2019 04:48

ks_sachin wrote:
suryag wrote:UB ji you are reading too much into this without full details being there. After looking at the Wingco Singam's Mig21 picture it doesnt seem he was hit by the AIM more your engine theory or ground fire, additionally, we have one more AIM120 debris which means the Pakis had fired two of them. Now for the rest of the wolf pack it is possible that Air control told them that they would walk into a trap if they chased the others and now the question of using the available BVRs could also be dictated by other conditions which we dont know right now.
When you say ground fire I presume you are alluding to SAMs?

Why do you credit Paki GROUND FIRE of all things? I know Bakis fire into the air at weddings and get killed routinely, but would YOU be shooting up and launching missiles during a close-in dogfight, hain? Just think about it before writing these things, always crediting the enemy with superhuman abilities.

Also yes, they found a pretty continuous casing of an American Air To Air missile inside India. Tell me: what kind of missile would leave a largely intact casing where you can read even the paper sticker saying

"From the People of the United States of America, To the Goat-Buggering Terrorists of Pakistan, With Our Hard-Earned Tax Money"?

IF it actually exploded?

So this was clearly a dud. Yes, launched when inside the LOC, and it proved dud. A lesson there maybe, hain?

The facts demonstrate that the modern Paki RAPE cannot come up to the level of semi-trained monkey on dope.

Now we hear of the other lynched Paki being Son of the King of Jordan... someone else said Blackwater Mercenary. Yeah, if Momma was Pakjabi, I cannot speculate on the numerous possible Poppas, true. Probably a poor sod put in the plane to actually fly because the Son of the Air Marshal was a Wing Commander only because he was Son of the Air Marshal... Bandar?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 04 Mar 2019 04:52

ks_sachin wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Based on this outcome I feel we missed a step by not working on an improved Mig-21 - look at lower landing speeds with canards, modified air intakes, owning the design with CFD, look at mating with a western engine before starting with the LCA.
You are being a Prof Prodyut Das.
I would suggest you go into your foxhole before IR or JayS or some other notable noteworthies decide to "Spice" you.

Please be careful with unnecessary personal attacks. I request you learn some etiquette and take a course in politeness and not Lynch mob mentality. My post was wishful thinking and not anti LCA. I have been more than vocal in supporting swadeshi. In the 80s to 90s after the Marut, we should have looked at a development of the 21s locally. That is what I suggested because the IAF understands the type and has tactics for it to take on current generation aircraft. So an improved 21 could have been a good idea. Of course IAF will say that the bisons were all they wanted of the type. But keeping the local MIC post Marut would have been good.

bkswarti · Post by **bkswarti** » 04 Mar 2019 04:54

Complete noobie here (had a BR account a long time ago). I made an account just to post this video of the dogfight. Sorry if this has been posted already.

Two things: you hear two thuds. And I believe you see a pilot (or two according to the video but I don’t see it) ejecting. Not sure if this is a footage of the Mig going down or the F-16.

https://youtu.be/00l5uOX0qDg

Also. Do I see two parachutes in this video? https://youtu.be/zhOVVvoA4KI

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Mar 2019 05:15

Vivek K wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: You are being a Prof Prodyut Das.
I would suggest you go into your foxhole before IR or JayS or some other notable noteworthies decide to "Spice" you.
Please be careful with unnecessary personal attacks. I request you learn some etiquette and take a course in politeness and not Lynch mob mentality. My post was wishful thinking and not anti LCA. I have been more than vocal in supporting swadeshi. In the 80s to 90s after the Marut, we should have looked at a development of the 21s locally. That is what I suggested because the IAF understands the type and has tactics for it to take on current generation aircraft. So an improved 21 could have been a good idea. Of course IAF will say that the bisons were all they wanted of the type. But keeping the local MIC post Marut would have been good.

Personal attacks!!!
Damn, I should have put some smilies...you take yourself too seriously...

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Mar 2019 05:24

UlanBatori wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: When you say ground fire I presume you are alluding to SAMs?
Why do you credit Paki GROUND FIRE of all things? I know Bakis fire into the air at weddings and get killed routinely, but would YOU be shooting up and launching missiles during a close-in dogfight, hain? Just think about it before writing these things, always crediting the enemy with superhuman abilities.

Also yes, they found a pretty continuous casing of an American Air To Air missile inside India. Tell me: what kind of missile would leave a largely intact casing where you can read even the paper sticker saying
"From the People of the United States of America, To the Goat-Buggering Terrorists of Pakistan, With Our Hard-Earned Tax Money"?
IF it actually exploded?

So this was clearly a dud. Yes, launched when inside the LOC, and it proved dud. A lesson there maybe, hain?

The facts demonstrate that the modern Paki RAPE cannot come up to the level of semi-trained monkey on dope.
Now we hear of the other lynched Paki being Son of the King of Jordan... someone else said Blackwater Mercenary. Yeah, if Momma was Pakjabi, I cannot speculate on the numerous possible Poppas, true. Probably a poor sod put in the plane to actually fly because the Son of the Air Marshal was a Wing Commander only because he was Son of the Air Marshal... Bandar?

UlanBatori,
I am not crediting anything..Please be good to read my question in response to a post. I don't know and so cannot credit what is or is not.
Post said ground fire and I wanted to know what the poster meant by ground fire...
tsktsktskts.

disha · Post by **disha** » 04 Mar 2019 05:25

bkswarti wrote:
Two things: you hear two thuds. And I believe you see a pilot (or two according to the video but I don’t see it) ejecting. Not sure if this is a footage of the Mig going down or the F-16.

https://youtu.be/00l5uOX0qDg

That looks like the video of my model rocket launch uploaded some 20 years back.

The pops could be anything. Problem w/ such video s are that it could be anything. It does not look like video of fighter jets.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 04 Mar 2019 05:52

The word is getting out there that an F16 was shot down by a Mig 21. Watch the videos below from an American blogger based in Thailand.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2019 05:53

Austin wrote:Air Marshal KK Nohwar Explains How Wg Cdr Abhinandan Shot Down PAF's F 16 Jet in Dog Fight

Ramana , UB watch , AVM KK Nohwar has nicely explained in the video on dog fight

We need a Salute emoji in our smilie collection.

khan · Post by **khan** » 04 Mar 2019 06:07

Forgive me, but my knowledge on the ORBAT is somewhat dated and I am looking for an education here. Doesn't India have Israeli BVR Missiles - Python V or Derbey or something like that? I distinctly remember this chatter on BRF in the mid 2000's.

And wasn't one of the selling points of the MKI that it was all Indian Avionics and therefore could conceivably be mated with a wide array of weapons systems? If so, why are the MKI's still flying around with R-77's of uncertain quality?

Pathik · Post by **Pathik** » 04 Mar 2019 06:53

There are two videos on Liveleak website of the aftermath of the two PAF jets on the ground with a pilot killed and one being spoken to by the public. Not sure if this is some propaganda but looks real as I havent seen these on Indian sites. They are on probably on page 2 or 3 on Liveleak.com now, not posting links here as it could be a potentially NSFW site.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Mar 2019 07:15

Their problem is this:
1) If they produce a pilot ppl will google and find his squadron, their a/f etc. Cannot afford it to be F-16
2) If they can't produce the pilot then crash is presumed.
3)Stay tuned to see the lies they invent.

******* Other points so far *****
4) I would presume that ALL videos uploaded on Twitter at this point are fakes. If there were any real ones they would have been posted within 1 hour. 5) The one showing WCDr Abhi with blood streaking down to the left of his face (suggests his face was held down, to the left before he was allowed to stand upright) seems real enough.
6) NO SAM streaks were seen in the "dogfight" video uploaded early on. No disciplined force would fire AA guns into the air when their own planes are in close dogfight, and anyway it seems to have been way up, and way too fast for AA. So NO basis for any "ground fire" claims.

7) Re: Engine flameout claim: That Tweet was politically motivated. Think about it. A flameout due to a sudden sharp climb etc, is like skidding into a tree because you send your SUV through a curve too fast on a slick road. POSSIBLE, but not with experienced pilots such as a WCDR. He was **not** under pressure after he fired his missile: nothing more to do except return home, and no need for any sudden suicidal maneuvers. So that is also a bogus claim.
Flameout has been known to occur during gunnery/missile fire if one's intake cut across the wake or ingested casings etc. But again, VERY unlikely for a straight IR SAM firing with the Paki fleeing straight ahead.
So the only thing left is that he got hit by debris from the exploding R73 or bits of F-16 debris in the sky. Combat was too close.

Ppl are way too quick to credit claims of "One Paki fired TWO mijjiles one at each MiG, one hit, other missed" etc. The Pakis were too busy running. And "going".

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2019 07:21

Pratikji, there is also yet another video about Paki pilot being beaten to death thinking he was an Indian ( oh pakis

). So, perhaps he could be the one (weapons afsar) who actually we are thinking escaped getting killed from Abhhinandan's kill. [no actual video shown, but just a report]

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 04 Mar 2019 08:11

Glad to know that we can always rely on the NYT to write an anti-India article.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/03/worl ... china.html
After India Loses Dogfight to Pakistan, Questions Arise About Its ‘Vintage’ Military

NEW DELHI — It was an inauspicious moment for a military the United States is banking on to help keep an expanding China in check.

An Indian Air Force pilot found himself in a dogfight last week with a warplane from the Pakistani Air Force, and ended up a prisoner behind enemy lines for a brief time.

The pilot made it home in one piece, however bruised and shaken, but the plane, an aging Soviet-era MiG-21, was less lucky.

The aerial clash, the first by the South Asian rivals in nearly five decades, was a rare test for the Indian military — and it left observers a bit dumbfounded. While the challenges faced by the India’s armed forces are no secret, its loss of a plane last week to a country whose military is about half the size and receives a quarter of the funding was still telling.

India’s armed forces are in alarming shape.

If intense warfare broke out tomorrow, India could supply its troops with only 10 days of ammunition, according to government estimates. And 68 percent of the army’s equipment is so old, it is officially considered “vintage.”

“Our troops lack modern equipment, but they have to conduct 21st-century military operations,” said Gaurav Gogoi, a lawmaker and member of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defense.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2019 08:35

Please don't blindly post firangi opinion here w/ you having your write up on it. what is your take is more important here than NYT opinion. Everything is Vintage against a thermo weapon, and this can be launched either soopah paawahs. These libturd idiots can overtake your point of view in a jiffy, if you don't pay attention at these times. don't feed the libturd media right off this forum. JMT/opinion. I could be wrong, and wish to be correct if so.

bkswarti · Post by **bkswarti** » 04 Mar 2019 08:45

I dont know why people get so angry if they read an anti-India article. I honestly feel like the article makes some good points. We need to invest more in procurement of state of the art technology and our army, air force and navy are all lacking hugely when it comes to modern technology.

We should take criticism in stride and recognize we have a lot of issues and room to improve.

We need 45 Squadrons or 800 fighter planes to handle a Pak - Chin offensive at the same time. We have ~520 currently; of those 520, 160 are Mig-21 and Mig 27. So that leaves a deficit of 440 aircrafts!!! We only have 28 Tejas and 36 Rafales ordered. How're we ever going to get there.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 04 Mar 2019 08:50

The title is a flamebait and nothing else and the rest of it says nothing that we do not know or acknowledge.

In other words, if it were printed, it would be worth no more than the paper used in some countries to wipe one's backside.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 04 Mar 2019 08:58

That is another motivated farticle by NYT.Ignore and move on.
Edit: Amul being ahead of the Curve.
https://youtu.be/eKbWAq8ElyM

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2019 08:59

bkswarti, did you get my point? I am here to read your POV, and not firangies. And don't please relay the firangies and libturds. If you say it, I welcome. was that your opinion?

It riles me because, you are pointing me to read it.. is that your intention?

yes, anti-India article should get you angry.. if not, then you serve no purpose. I am not asking you to blow the fuse, but think!