Small Arms Thread

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 01 Mar 2019 17:44

souravB wrote:Twitter Source

Giving impetus to #MakeInIndia
in defence.

Now, AK-203 Assault Rifles will be made in India by a joint venture between Russia’s Kalashnikov Concern and Ordnance Factory Board.
just leaving it out here for people who reined me in for expecting too much.
I concede I overestimated the capability of our babus to future gaze. I have egg on my face.

I share in your sorrow....
If I say I feel like crying people will assume it is tears of joy because it is videsh AK!!
Horrendous decision...
Kiss the off drdo CQB goodbye!!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2019 23:13

Russian-Indian JV to produce 750 thousand AK 203 for Indian security officials - Rosoboronexport
03/03/2019 14:35:28

http://militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=503226

Moscow. March, 3rd. INTERFAX - Moscow and Delhi will manufacture 750 thousand Kalashnikov assault rifles (AK 203) in a joint venture in India, said Rosoboroneksport general director Alexander Mikheev.

"The production of 750 thousand automatons was coordinated, mostly from Indian components. Nobody could offer such depth of localization with such large volumes of India, and it is unlikely to be able to do it in the near future. The capacity of the plant allows you to fully equip the personnel of the security forces of India", stated A.Mikheev, whose words resulted on Sunday in the press service of the company.

On Sunday, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi opened a factory for the production of Kalashnikov assault rifles in the latest, “two hundred” series in the Indian city of Corva, Uttar Pradesh.

Rosoboroneksport reported that the founders of the joint venture Indo-Russian Rifles Private Limited were the management of artillery factories (Ordnance Factory Board, OFB, India) and Rosoboronexport and Kalashnikov Concern members of the Rostec state corporation.

The general director of Rosoboronexport announced that, if necessary, the parties could agree on an increase in production volumes and an upgrade for the production of promising models.

“India is the first country to start producing the“ 200th ”series of Kalashnikov brand machines. We sincerely congratulate our Indian colleagues, residents of the state of Uttar Pradesh, with a significant event that underlines the high level of trust and the status of an undeniable strategic partnership between Russia and India in the field of defense and security ", - noted A.Mikheev.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2019 08:56

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 248283.cms

our media comparing INSAS with AK203

why suddenly so much publicity now? I can see it.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 04 Mar 2019 10:22

Folks something to ponder about is should we really consider designing assault rifles in India, isn’t license production good enough, this argument however doesn’t hold good for anything beyond mortars or Rocket launchers because the ARs are almost a commodity product in world markets

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Mar 2019 11:27

We should design assault rifles, so far we have been followers, unless we start designing stuff we can never really catch up. For that we must allow private sector in. Something which will give us lot of strategic independence. PSU type red tape will never allow innovation.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Mar 2019 11:31

SaiK wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 248283.cms

our media comparing INSAS with AK203

why suddenly so much publicity now? I can see it.

Saar,
I wish that could be considered a meaningful comparison.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Mar 2019 11:33

Aditya_V wrote:We should design assault rifles, so far we have been followers, unless we start designing stuff we can never really catch up. For that we must allow private sector in. Something which will give us lot of strategic independence. PSU type red tape will never allow innovation.

Saar,
Can you elaborate what you mean by design aspect?

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 04 Mar 2019 12:03

Well another moronic article on ET.
Skipping it would be a better option but I suggest that for comic relief you can do a quick read.
https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 251026.cms

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 04 Mar 2019 12:09

I think the time is ripe to start working on cased telescope ammunition and related weaponry.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Mar 2019 12:13

ks_sachin wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:We should design assault rifles, so far we have been followers, unless we start designing stuff we can never really catch up. For that we must allow private sector in. Something which will give us lot of strategic independence. PSU type red tape will never allow innovation.
Saar,
Can you elaborate what you mean by design aspect?

Something we design and have a control of all components, so that we can keep evolving on how to make better small arms

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Mar 2019 16:47

Aditya_V wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: Saar,
Can you elaborate what you mean by design aspect?
Something we design and have a control of all components, so that we can keep evolving on how to make better small arms

Nobel idea but it is putting the cart before the horse.
Until the army decides what caliber it wants to fight with nothing can be done..because this influences the design choices..

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 04 Mar 2019 16:48

suryag wrote:Folks something to ponder about is should we really consider designing assault rifles in India, isn’t license production good enough, this argument however doesn’t hold good for anything beyond mortars or Rocket launchers because the ARs are almost a commodity product in world markets

The short answer is No. Buy a design and produce it, Hell yes.
The best course of action is to take the route of UAE IMO. The exact way they did it through Caracal.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 06 Mar 2019 16:19

http://forceindia.net/modi-inaugurates- ... e-ak-203s/

An effective range of 400 metre at 100 per cent accuracy gives them a unique edge over older series of rifles, and as compared to INSAS, AK-203 is lighter and shorter. The 200-series rifles can be equipped with quick-detachable tactical sound suppressors, besides, the gun holds NATO-grade ammunition of 7.62 mm.

Does that means it can fire 7.62x51 rounds ? Wasn't that AK-308 ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Mar 2019 16:34

It is 7.62x38 for AK-203 , that is what the IA/MOD had asked for ......For NATO class 7.62x51 there is separate deal with US

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Mar 2019 18:04

Let it be AK308. Modern 7.62 NATO rifle with good optics is going to inflict a world of pain in 250-400 meter engagement range.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Mar 2019 18:30

IT depends on what Indian Army asked for if they asked for 7.62x39 they got that, if they want a NATO caliber then they will get that

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Mar 2019 18:41

I guess the contract covers both. AKM isn't going away anytime soon and CAPF are unlikely to make a shift to 7.62 NATO.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 06 Mar 2019 19:26

AFAIK the intent is to purchase 3.2L rifles in 7.62NATO. 72k has been ordered as emergency and the RFI for the rest of 2.5L would be released soon as MII. AK308 will compete in that. New OFB 7.62NATO rifle after clearing trials may also participate.
I can understand CAPFs using AKs but what I do not understand is IA's insistence on using AKs for CT forces. Same or better effect vs 7.62x39 could be had with using 5gm bullet in 5.56NATO cartridge.
FTR, I was really hoping they were making AK308 in the factory, and we could eventually do away with 7.62x39 caliber altogether.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 06 Mar 2019 19:29

Thakur_B, Austin, Army asked for 8 lakhs 7.62 Nato rifle. OFB Ichapore designed a rifle and they hope to make 1.86 lakhs unit of it and rest will be through global tender. Here is a 2017 video of one of the prototype from Ichapore.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 368819.cms

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 06 Mar 2019 19:32

Shooting the new OFB 7.62x51 mm / .308 AR

Sorry if posted earlier.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 06 Mar 2019 20:00

Snehashis wrote:Thakur_B, Austin, Army asked for 8 lakhs 7.62 Nato rifle. OFB Ichapore designed a rifle and they hope to make 1.86 lakhs unit of it and rest will be through global tender.
--snip--

IA couldn't get this number for money and backtracked. Hence this convoluted procedure. It would've been better though.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 06 Mar 2019 21:32

Folks:

Many of us are disappointed that indigenous designs are not being selected for INSAS replacement. I, for one, was rooting for the INSAS Mk1C (?) as it had cleared all the trials over several months, and all improvements asked by the army had been made. When the order seemed to be imminent, the army, during the army commanders' conference, declared that the IA will be going to the 7.62 caliber. That put paid to the INSAS Mk1C.

I was then rooting for the 7.62 AK clone developed by Ishapore. The army tried that one, and did not select it.

Now, we have to swallow the reality that the army, for some reason, did not want any DRDO/ OFB designs as replacements for the INSAS. Right or wrong, the decision has been made, and we have to learn to live with it. There is no use crying over spilt milk. We need to move forward and now discuss the IA Small Arms on this thread in light of this decision.

I, for one, am relieved that at last (after so many years of proposals, trials and cancellations) a decision has been made, and the IA will get new rifles.

As far as the license production of AK is concerned, the army gets the comfort of reliability and ruggedness of the Kalashnikov that they apparently love, and the politicians get off the hook by giving the OFB a piece of the pie.

For the 'frontline' rifle, it will likely be a western 7.62x51 to be made in India by a private sector entity. But that decision will have to wait till after the elections.

JMHO

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 06 Mar 2019 22:07

BTW there is also a 7.62 machine gun for x0,000 numbers left, which no doubt the OFB gun will get ignored.

isubodh · Post by **isubodh** » 06 Mar 2019 22:54

Kakkaji wrote: Now, we have to swallow the reality that the army, for some reason, did not want any DRDO/ OFB designs as replacements for the INSAS. Right or wrong, the decision has been made, and we have to learn to live with it. There is no use crying over spilt milk. We need to move forward and now discuss the IA Small Arms on this thread in light of this decision.

I believe DRDO should focus on something that we cannot ask someone to produce in India. There are enough big stuff like turbo engines, laser weapons, mirv, missiles for DRDO to concentrate on. It should work on stuff that private sector cannot pick and is required 10-20 years down the lane.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Mar 2019 23:39

Kakkaji wrote:....
As far as the license production of AK is concerned, the army gets the comfort of reliability and ruggedness of the Kalashnikov that they apparently love, and the politicians get off the hook by giving the OFB a piece of the pie.

F....HO

And with a state owned Russian firm the decision will not be challanged

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 07 Mar 2019 00:51

souravB wrote:AFAIK the intent is to purchase 3.2L rifles in 7.62NATO. 72k has been ordered as emergency and the RFI for the rest of 2.5L would be released soon as MII. AK308 will compete in that. New OFB 7.62NATO rifle after clearing trials may also participate.
I can understand CAPFs using AKs but what I do not understand is IA's insistence on using AKs for CT forces. Same or better effect vs 7.62x39 could be had with using 5gm bullet in 5.56NATO cartridge.
FTR, I was really hoping they were making AK308 in the factory, and we could eventually do away with 7.62x39 caliber altogether.

Sir,
AK was because of probs with Insas and exp in Lanka.
Remember there was a huge amount of funding issues when RR was set up. What better way to give the CT troops effective weapons than to get cheap as chips AK from the eastern block. We imported many from Romania.
No science other than money at that time.
No science other than myopia and a lack science now.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 07 Mar 2019 01:34

Sachin sir, one can be hopeful as 5.56 carbine production get localised for IA with MII, we'll be moving away from AKs in the Army and the surplus AKs made in this factory will be fielded by CAPFs and Police forces.
There will be a huge demand for better rifles in the havaldar ranks of state police who still use 303s and stick.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 07 Mar 2019 17:59

souravB wrote:Sachin sir, one can be hopeful as 5.56 carbine production get localised for IA with MII, we'll be moving away from AKs in the Army and the surplus AKs made in this factory will be fielded by CAPFs and Police forces.
There will be a huge demand for better rifles in the havaldar ranks of state police who still use 303s and stick.

Hope u are right. If you are then a bottle of single malt your way.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 08 Mar 2019 03:59

Here the VC talks about AK203 production from 4:00 minute onwards. Seems like they are planning it to be the mainstay of IA.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 09 Mar 2019 04:40

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Mar 2019 11:50

souravB wrote:Here the VC talks about AK203 production from 4:00 minute onwards. Seems like they are planning it to be the mainstay of IA.

10I is 10 Days Intense War ....Is what they are anticipating with war in Pakistan ? Is this the same for Army and AF

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Mar 2019 12:02

Austin, please read the posts on BRF. First aim is 10(i), then 40 (i), all-in-all.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 05:06

These have been awaiting orders for a while now. Good.

The project for acquiring new hand grenades is required for the replacement of the existing HE-36 grenades manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Board. The multi-mode grenades have been developed by the DRDO and a production agency has been selected to manufacture them in large numbers. Hand grenades are among the few critical weapons that soldiers need in the time of war as they can be used to cause heavy damage to enemy positions or bunkers apart from taking out their soldiers.

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/68427900.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 05:15

There have been orders before, 2010.
https://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100722/main6.htm

An order has been placed with the Ordnance Factory Board for supplying one million hand grenades to the Army. Known as Shivalik, these would replace the existing M-36 HE grenades, the original version of which dates back to the Second World War. Developed by DRDO’s Chandigarh-based Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory, the new grenade overcomes the safety hazards posed by the existing grenades. The M-36, according to the DRDO, has a severe reliability problem due to its flawed fusing system and uneven fragmenting pattern, making it unsafe even for the thrower.

Shivalik uses a modular plastic body and pre-formed cylindrical mild steel fragments for uniform distribution of fragments to overcome these deficiencies. Additional features have been incorporated into the fuse’s arming mechanism to ensure greater safety during storage, transportation and airdropping. Fragmentation distribution can also be controlled for use in offensive or defensive roles by attachment of a fragmentation sleeve. The use of plastic has also resulted in reduction of the grenade’s overall weight. Unlike earlier grenades, it can be para-dropped if urgent re-supplies are needed and can function in temperatures ranging from minus 20 to 55°C.

Besides the Shivalik, the Army has also approved bulk production of the add-on 40 mm under-barrel grenade launcher (UBGL) that is attached to rifles for increasing their firepower. The UBGL, which can be mounted on the INSAS as well as AK-47 rifles, was developed keeping in view the global trend in technology for small arms from the concept of point-target capability to area-target capability. Capable of night-firing, it fills the gap between the maximum range achieved by a hand grenade and the minimum range of a mortar while giving better accuracy than both.

Another unique weapon under development by the DRDO is the “chill grenade”, which uses extract of Bhut Jolokia, certified as the world’s hottest chilli and is native to the northeast. Part of a range of equipment being developed by the DRDO for counter-insurgency and internal security operations, the chilli-grenade is non-toxic and non-lethal and functions like tear-gas used by the security forces. Its pungent fumes can smoke out terrorists or hostile elements from hideouts.

Looks like Shivalik or another variant. The TBRL was supposed to have been making it itself.

Huge numbers required (2011), suggests orders of 25% of the total requirement.

CHANDIGARH: The Army is all set to enhance fire power of infantry by shifting from vintage hand grenade to the advanced, multi-mode grenade (MMG). The induction of these indigenous grenades would save the country Rs 200 crore every year.

The Army has placed an order of 18 lakh grenades against its actual requirement of 80 lakh to replace the existing M36 grenades.

As the grenade has been developed by Terminal Ballistic Research Laboratory (TBRL), a laboratory of Defence Research and Development Organization ( DRDO), located in the foothills of Shivalik mountains near Chandigarh, it has been named as Shivalik.

The most characteristic feature of Shivalik grenade is that it doesn't explode until the safety pin is removed unlike the existing vintage grenade, which may go off accidentally.

Talking to TOI, TBRL director Dr Manjit Singh said that in the first phase, an order of 10 lakh Shivalik grenades was placed by the Army.

The grenade would be made at the ordinance factory Khamaria in Jabalpur, Madhya Pradesh. Singh also said that not just the Army, TBRL has also been receiving orders from the Navy and paramilitary forces for Shivalik.

Giving further details, senior scientist with TBRL Pravendra Kumar said, "It is multi mode -- can be used for offensive as well as defensive purpose. During offensive, it is used at the final stage of assault by the troops from a distance of around 50 m from the line of enemy defence. During defensive mode, the grenade is used against the enemy troops in the open as a shield.

The grenade has three basic modules - fuze, body and launcher tube. The different modules can be assembled or dissembled with ease. It is possible to prime and unprime the grenade any number of times without affecting its efficiency.

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

And this report suggests TBRL itself made the grenades.

But then OFB got the tech.
http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/gr/25.htm

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 16 Mar 2019 05:21

Is this order going to go to the OFB, or is DRDO ready to share technology with a private company for production?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 05:43

I hope its the latter. Hopefully, Solar Industries which received TOT from the TBRL.
https://solargroup.com/wp-content/uploa ... /MMHG1.pdf

OFB had issues absorbing MMG tech (no surprise) and it was under modification in 2010-11. The orders above placed in 2010-11 were on "hold" (the 10 Lakh order, only 35,000 were produced, 18 Lakh order is a mistaken report) as Army wanted a time delay of 3.5 to 4.5 seconds on throwing the grenade, whereas the fuze was averaging 2-5 seconds in practice.

So the TBRL was looking for private partners to continue the project & MODs stance was that the limited time envisaged by the IA was not feasible either (implying then imports probably had similar performance). So, in essence, this 10 Lakh unit order is likely the older one dusted off and put back on the shelf.

Meanwhile OFB continued tinkering with the M36 design detonator, coming up with.

Detonator 36m Grenade 4 Sec Delay

So where are we today?

The Solar Industry PDF clearly indicates 3.5 - 4.5 seconds, indicating that the issues were likely resolved.

So lets go back to what DRDO states as of 2017.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfo ... 17_WEB.pdf

TBRL has developed a multi-mode hand grenade as a potential replacement of 36 M grenade. It uses preformed cylindrical mild steel fragments to achieve uniform distribution. After successful development of multi-mode hand grenade,ToT has been done with OFB and private industry. Production has been established in the premises of private sector ToT holder and 2000 nos. have been produced for user’s trials. DRDO internal trials from the production lot has been completed, which meets all GSQR requirements.

................

Time delay 3 sec and arming delay of 0.5 sec provides additional safety to the thrower

Hence the renewed 10 Lakh unit order & my bet is it is Solar Industries, hence the lack of any "who makes it information" in the news report so our great OFB unions dont throw a fit.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 05:48

This would be a 80 Lakh order if it meets user requirements in full. Keep an eye out for repeat orders.
Our ammo needs alone can run a central european economy for several years, just saying...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Mar 2019 05:54

Most likely the new contract is for the sleeve and plastic body.
The explosive filling will be in an OFB factory. Both are not feasible in private sector.
Liability is too high.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Mar 2019 06:01

ramana wrote:Most likely the new contract is foe the sleeve and plastic body.
The explosive filling will be in an OFB factory. Both are not feasible in private sector.
Liability is too high.

Ramana sir you would be surprised. PEL and Solar both handle explosives in a huge way.

https://solargroup.com/defence/#home (INVAR warhead, Konkurs Warhead, Akash sustainer, Pinaka propellant/rocket, MMG, RDX/TNT/HMX etc)

Annual report 2017-18.
https://solargroup.com/wp-content/uploa ... 037941.pdf
Page 9

Defence Explosives & Ammunition High Energy Material (HMX, RDX etc.) Composite Propellants for Pinaka, Akash, Brahmos etc Filling of Ammunitions and Fuzes Rockets and Warheads for Missiles

As far as our Defence division is concerned, we continue to infuse funds to create state of art capabilities particularly in the production of High Energy Materials, Ammunitions, Rockets, Propulsion Systems and War heads among others. Currently we have an order book of H255 Crores. Our sales in FY-18 were less than our expectations due to delay in the process of validation and testing which takes substantially long time. However we are confident of achieving much higher sales in the coming years. The Country has largely been dependent on Imports for Ammunition. It is my firm conviction that with the state of art infrastructure built by us along with the expertise and knowledge gained by us in the manufacture of High Energy Materials and Ammunition, we can contribute substantially to meet the requirement of our Armed Forces

Order book at end of FY18-19 stands at 430 crores. I think MOF and MOD should really look towards pvt sector to make up for MOD in a sustained way, with consistent orders.

Premier solid propellants (LRSAM, MRSAM, Akash, Astra) etc.
http://www.pelgel.com

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Mar 2019 06:11

KaranM

So the Army wants 3.5 to 4.5 sec delay. This works out to 3 +/- 0.5 sec.
The fuse achieved 2 to 5 sec. This works out to 3.5 +/- 1.5 sec.
So what's going on? Both nominal and tolerance band are being shifted.
Was Army out of loop when the grenade was being developed?
How could such a big difference crop up in requirements?
Or is this another match fixing by the procurement gang?
Reason is there is a German grenade developed in mid 70s that's has similar requirements. Plastic body with nocked wire sleeve for fragments.
I don't know it's fuze time delay.
I bet it's TBRL numbers.

Thanks for the private sector military explosives makers.