Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Chinmayanand
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Chinmayanand » 20 Mar 2019 11:53

Can Indian MBRLs shower petals & peace on paki forward airbases ?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2019 11:54

GAURAV C SAWANT
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Pak Cricket Board (PCB) pays ₹ 11 crore ($1.6 million) to @BCCI after losing case at @ICC dispute resolution Committee. PCB had sued BCCI for not playing 6 bilateral cricket series between 2015-23. PCB wanted $70 million as compensation. Lost. Ended up shelling out $2.2 million

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 20 Mar 2019 12:20

Singha wrote:yesterday was a dark night over the mendhar sector ... some good things happened. cant reveal my source.
nobody is asking u to reveal the source...only what good things happened on the dark night?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 20 Mar 2019 12:33

If FATF does not blacklist Pakis in June, what could be the ramifications/ implications??

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby dinesha » 20 Mar 2019 13:03

IAF asks for fresh ammo as Pakistan moves up F16s, takes terror camps to FATA
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 490562.cms

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2019 13:16

realistically we can get some stock of R73 and R77 from russia which surely maintains deep stocks. maybe R27 its out of production.

I dont think M550, M530 are in production anymore? the upg Mirages already have Mica.

Tejas will go frontline only from next year so no need for derby or asraam anything extra beyond what is already in pipeline.

the kind of glacial induction schedule they had planned for Astra mk1 , asraam, mica and the M2K upgrades are out of the window now.
the Mirages need to get upgraded fast and with Mica. Astra mk1 must be produced like 1000 rounds annually using whatever N shifts needed for that.
Astra mk2 must be expedited because a few platinum coated meteor isnt going to do.

and we need to atleast _now_ start on cloning the asraam and p5 as a hybrid IIR missile

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2019 13:31

I anticipate huge purchases of R-73E and RVV-AE from Russia (hopefully even RVV-SD & RVV-MD, but then IAF should have thought ahead, and as usual, probably didn't) & most importantly, I hope Astra MK1 production is now launched at a warfooting. Even 4 rounds for 250 Sukhois translates to 1000 rounds, so its essential a 2000 unit order is placed right away.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2019 13:31

Imagine Pakistan's plight. Its AMRAAMs cannot be replenished. Nor can its economy support mass purchases. Its ilon blother and lover China is already preparing the vaseline for more Pakistan demands.. and what it expects in return.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Chinmayanand » 20 Mar 2019 13:48

Holy Camel ! Babaji uvacha , 180mm mortars numbering 5000 sent across 4 places to celebrate Holi .

https://twitter.com/bababanaras/status/ ... 30240?s=19

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2019 14:01

Must make it clear to saudi and turkiye and massa there will be consequences if amraams are given

Iaf air warriors are now exposed to the real world
Of attrition of stock and need for deep magazines of local maal

A few elite gori chamri meteor or mica kuch bhi ukhaad nahi payega

Russia and massa are the two who have learnt from bitter experiences of long wars how to win these

Would not be surprised if russia has 10000 extra r77 stocked from cold war era in some cave in the urals.
They understand numbers well and the value of trusted cheaper workhorses like su24 and frogfoot

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 20 Mar 2019 14:35

Singha wrote:Must make it clear to saudi and turkiye and massa there will be consequences if amraams are given


I doubt we hold any leverage against the OPEC Ummah chief even US doesnt.

Bloggers have tracked 3 x 777 Cargo variantflown from Saudi to Pakistan and back with claims of Saudi protecting Pakistan Nuclear Asset against Indian Strike by taking it to Saudi.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 20 Mar 2019 14:39

R-73 is not a state of art WVR missile and a Gen behind Python-5 and ASRAAM in terms of seeker technology.

But as fate would have the only two kills IAF has against PAF in recent time is via R-73 now and R-60 against PN Atlantique.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby habal » 20 Mar 2019 14:49

Austin wrote:
Singha wrote:Must make it clear to saudi and turkiye and massa there will be consequences if amraams are given


I doubt we hold any leverage against the OPEC Ummah chief even US doesnt.

Bloggers have tracked 3 x 777 Cargo variantflown from Saudi to Pakistan and back with claims of Saudi protecting Pakistan Nuclear Asset against Indian Strike by taking it to Saudi.


our leverage with ummah birathers at the moment consist of imposing naval blockade on pakistan which in effect will squeeze gelf oil producers by way of higher shipping insurance premiums which will undercut their revenue bottomlines.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Shivaji » 20 Mar 2019 14:53

Mort Walker wrote:bababanaras - but even he misspelled GUJARAT.

To Create panic in the heart of the enemy, mock drill of @IAF_MCC done near IB in Gujrat last night. 6 Sukhoi MKI30 , 10 Miraj-2000 , 2 MIG-29, 2 MIG-27, 4 Jaguar roared along the IB.


Corroborated that it is Indian state of Gujarat here:

https://aajtak.intoday.in/gallery/india ... 31593.html

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby habal » 20 Mar 2019 14:55

Singha wrote:Iaf air warriors are now exposed to the real world
Of attrition of stock and need for deep magazines of local maal


Is this why the french and rest of nato flew so few sorties over syria ? why unnecesarily waste precious AAM's and shorten their shelf life.

Similarly read an article where taiwan was crying out loud for being squeezed of amraam's by unkil under china's pressure. Only 300 AIM-120 with them as of 2018, while Australia had around 450.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 20 Mar 2019 15:13

habal wrote:
Austin wrote:
I doubt we hold any leverage against the OPEC Ummah chief even US doesnt.

Bloggers have tracked 3 x 777 Cargo variantflown from Saudi to Pakistan and back with claims of Saudi protecting Pakistan Nuclear Asset against Indian Strike by taking it to Saudi.


our leverage with ummah birathers at the moment consist of imposing naval blockade on pakistan which in effect will squeeze gelf oil producers by way of higher shipping insurance premiums which will undercut their revenue bottomlines.


In theory yes a lot can be done but in practise they might cut oil to us or the Oil price will shoot up so fast that it wont be sustainable , plus expect pressure from Western countries if your blockage affects Oil prices.

Pakistan is bankrolled by Saudi and being the only over Sunni clan member with Atomic Weapon all Sunni countries will stand up for them or will be forced to do so under OPEC pressure.

The fact that they sent 3 B 777 and no one even raised an eyebrow gives you a good answer why

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2019 15:16

Austin wrote:R-73 is not a state of art WVR missile and a Gen behind Python-5 and ASRAAM in terms of seeker technology.

But as fate would have the only two kills IAF has against PAF in recent time is via R-73 now and R-60 against PN Atlantique.


Don't forget the drone kills. :lol:

The icing on the cake would be if IAF can rapidly integrate RVV-SD and RVV-MD onto the Su-30s and MiG-29s. These are the new ones in the game, and they shouldn't be too different than previous gen missiles. They should already be integrated on the Su-30SMs in Russian service as well.

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-sys ... le/rvv-sd/
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/aerospace-sys ... le/rvv-md/

Aim is to keep the IAF running. A thousand each of these missiles won't bankrupt India. And add another 2000 Astra Mk1 orders.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 20 Mar 2019 15:34

Chinmayanand wrote:Holy Camel ! Babaji uvacha , 180mm mortars numbering 5000 sent across 4 places to celebrate Holi .

https://twitter.com/bababanaras/status/ ... 30240?s=19


There is no 180 mm mortar in service in Indian Army. Our largest mortars are very few Finnish/Israeli Tampella 160 mm and Thomson Brandt 120 mm.

This kind of posts expose the knowledge or lack of it of such twitter posters.

A simple google search would have revealed this fact
Last edited by tsarkar on 20 Mar 2019 15:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2019 15:38

^^ probably he did not mean mortars at all but AMR. i dont think it will be unknown to the wider world if 5000 mortars are fired in one barrage.

a informant who cannot be identified was saying the R73 type missiles with cooled IIR seekers & glass front have a lifespan of 3 takeoff-landing cycles ?
also a "lock on" activation means some liquid nitrogen is released to cool the seeker and then its use it or lose it.
ie atleast the seeker head needs refurbishing after 3 cycles?

since electronics on civil a.c are just fine with daily takeoff cycles, what is the problem - is it seekers or the warhead & solid fuel motor grain becomes unreliable?

it also means the fabled 16 hellfire load of apache/reaper are just for show unless a war starts....hot peace they will likely cart 2 onlee to preserve life. that means apache == LCH

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Mar 2019 15:42

Singha wrote:^^ probably he did not mean mortars at all but AMR. i dont think it will be unknown to the wider world if 5000 mortars are fired in one barrage.

a informant who cannot be identified was saying the R73 type missiles with cooled IIR seekers & glass front have a lifespan of 3 takeoff-landing cycles ?
also a "lock on" activation means some liquid nitrogen is released to cool the seeker and then its use it or lose it.
ie atleast the seeker head needs refurbishing after 3 cycles?

since electronics on civil a.c are just fine with daily takeoff cycles, what is the problem - is it seekers or the warhead & solid fuel motor grain becomes unreliable?

it also means the fabled 16 hellfire load of apache/reaper are just for show unless a war starts....hot peace they will likely cart 2 onlee to preserve life. that means apache == LCH


The 3 cycles part was more true for old AIm 9B/K-13, for mordern missiles I think it is somethign like 90 hours flying time, but the part about once you start usign seeker to acquire a target is absolutely true, Thats why better to let IRST or Radar to acquire the target rather than using the Missile seeker, thats more like what needs to done using HMCS and LOAL modes.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 20 Mar 2019 16:11

Singha wrote:realistically we can get some stock of R73 and R77 from russia which surely maintains deep stocks. maybe R27 its out of production.



Russia will ask for arm and leg for urgent purchase. It has to be Astra for "no peace no war" flying. Replace some of the R77 with Astra.

Could allow us to re-use the Astra seeker, if not fired. The advantage of having a local BVR.

Lessons for IAF.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2019 16:19

^^ all very fine plan but at present no more than about 50-100 astras have been produced and BDL was gearing up to begin volume production once a bulk order is placed which has not happened yet.

so anyway if the initial thought was 1000 rounds, we need to go 5X web scale and order 5000 .... which can be produced in tranches of 1000 with technology insertion points after each 1000 instead of producing 100 and sitting on our thumbs for 4 years waiting for 20 tech features on the next 4900 which is the typical way desi systems have been inducted.

those luxuries are now gone. the game has changed. either you are ready for a fight or not ready. and this time its not drdo who the baying mobs will pelt with eggs if avoidable problems are not deftly solved.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby abhishekbit » 20 Mar 2019 16:27

tsarkar wrote:
Chinmayanand wrote:Holy Camel ! Babaji uvacha , 180mm mortars numbering 5000 sent across 4 places to celebrate Holi .

https://twitter.com/bababanaras/status/ ... 30240?s=19


There is no 180 mm mortar in service in Indian Army. Our largest mortars are very few Finnish/Israeli Tampella 160 mm and Thomson Brandt 120 mm.

This kind of posts expose the knowledge or lack of it of such twitter posters.

A simple google search would have revealed this fact


A plain Google search shows several URLs which confirm that it is being used by Indian Army.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/weapons/artillery/22-Army-Orbat.html
http://zittara.com/2017/03/12/artillary-used-by-indian-army/

A DNA article from September 2017 says " BSF targeted Pakistani positions with 150mm and 180mm mortar guns, "

https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-india-pakistan-agree-upon-ceasefire-2548899

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Mar 2019 16:32

^^ perhaps 180 should read 81mm or 120mm because these are the mortars we have.

i have never seen this S-23 180mm since the mid 80s when i started watching TV. someone older than my gen has to answer.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Mar 2019 16:46

abhishekbit wrote:
tsarkar wrote:
There is no 180 mm mortar in service in Indian Army. Our largest mortars are very few Finnish/Israeli Tampella 160 mm and Thomson Brandt 120 mm.

This kind of posts expose the knowledge or lack of it of such twitter posters.

A simple google search would have revealed this fact


A plain Google search shows several URLs which confirm that it is being used by Indian Army.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/weapons/artillery/22-Army-Orbat.html
http://zittara.com/2017/03/12/artillary-used-by-indian-army/

A DNA article from September 2017 says " BSF targeted Pakistani positions with 150mm and 180mm mortar guns, "

https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-india-pakistan-agree-upon-ceasefire-2548899



Kindly read the zittara link and do some research before posting mate. The biggest mortar we have is the 160mm designed by Tampella and then manufactured by Soltam as the M66.

The zittara piece is crap - Abbot SPG used by the Brits!!!!! 105mm SPG on a BMP chassis!!!!

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby VikasM » 20 Mar 2019 16:55

This looks credible.

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... w-4662473/


[quote]180 mm Gun S-23: This gun is the product of cold war era USSR. It is a heavy gun designed by NII-58 and later shipped off to India. There are 100 of these in service in the Indian Army right now. It is a towed artillery gun with a length of 10.48 metres. The barrel itself is 8.8 metre in length. The gun weighs a mammoth 21.45 tons. It fires not more than 1 round per minute but has an effective ran

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 20 Mar 2019 17:00

Singha wrote:^^ all very fine plan but at present no more than about 50-100 astras have been produced and BDL was gearing up to begin volume production once a bulk order is placed which has not happened yet.

so anyway if the initial thought was 1000 rounds, we need to go 5X web scale and order 5000 .... which can be produced in tranches of 1000 with technology insertion points after each 1000 instead of producing 100 and sitting on our thumbs for 4 years waiting for 20 tech features on the next 4900 which is the typical way desi systems have been inducted.

those luxuries are now gone. the game has changed. either you are ready for a fight or not ready. and this time its not drdo who the baying mobs will pelt with eggs if avoidable problems are not deftly solved.


No arguments here. Before the air strike, I was praying IAF atleast bombs an empty hut somewhere in Pakland, so that GoI comes face to face with real world issues when getting in to a fight.

Now that has happened, we are in uncharted territory, which has woken up lot of people, who have gone in to slumber post 71.

Such fist fights are required to keep us on our toes. Khan gets in to random bush war for exactly the same experience.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 20 Mar 2019 17:48

The pic with the damaged roof/parapet doesn't have any text or explanation to go with it, subsequent tweet of the ambulance refers to generic rant alongside IK's offer of olive branch, yet Kashmiris have to suffer.

^^
Good enough confirmation for UBCN. Hole in roof - nothing left beneath. Ambulance to pick up bags. I think these are clearly Balakot (or one of the other targets equally blessed) images. The horizontal devastation without blowing out the roof, is what confused ppl looking at Space images. True that roof is left, but like UBCN posted, there are Djinn mijjiles that come in through roof and then zoom around inside, frying everything. Maybe knock down brick walls while leaving concrete columns tottering but not collapsed. Everything inside fried in its own fat.
Oh! The building looks intact except for a minor hole in the roof!


Oh! Look! The wall and roof are intact on one corner and trees don't show any blast effect!
:rotfl:

We have not figured out the "four craters from bombs; trees damaged" thing yet. They seem like very small weapons if any used. Like maybe an ATGM explosion, which is why UBCN reported those as part of the evening party before dinner. OTOH those might have been shells that "cooked off" and flew out as a result of what happened inside. Those 4 happened to fall in convenient spots that could be shown off to visiting Reuters donkeys.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby khan » 20 Mar 2019 18:02

dinesha wrote:IAF asks for fresh ammo as Pakistan moves up F16s, takes terror camps to FATA
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 490562.cms


From the above article:
While the Balakot strike came as a surprise to Pakistan, which was anticipating a hit at the Jaish-e-Mohammad headquarters at Bahawalpur, intelligence inputs suggest that post the “non-military” attack, terror camps have been moved to the FATA region, to take them out of the range of Indians fighter jets operating from near the Line of Control (LoC).


I hope IAF finds a way to visit FATA, there must be many Balakots there.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 20 Mar 2019 18:25

in FATA they are too close to khan supervision...

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby habal » 20 Mar 2019 18:31

FATA is habitat of droneacharya.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nash » 20 Mar 2019 18:53

FATA is more than 200 Km from LoC and IB, it will be tough for IAF to reach that far without using stand-off weapons.

As Brahmos is yet to be inducted, other options maybe Kh-59 or other weapon in this series.

Other possibility would SF attack from Afghanistan but it would be very risky.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 20 Mar 2019 18:59

Chinmayanand wrote:Holy Camel ! Babaji uvacha , 180mm mortars numbering 5000 sent across 4 places to celebrate Holi .

https://twitter.com/bababanaras/status/ ... 30240?s=19

there's no such thing in IA AFAIK.

there's 81mm mortars and those are held by the battalions, don't need to be sent separately per se. 120 mm is the largest mortar caliber operated by IA.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Mar 2019 19:04

VikasM wrote:This looks credible.

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... w-4662473/


180 mm Gun S-23: This gun is the product of cold war era USSR. It is a heavy gun designed by NII-58 and later shipped off to India. There are 100 of these in service in the Indian Army right now. It is a towed artillery gun with a length of 10.48 metres. The barrel itself is 8.8 metre in length. The gun weighs a mammoth 21.45 tons. It fires not more than 1 round per minute but has an effective ran



WE DONT HAVE IT....
120mm and 160 mm mortars are hend by the Arty

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 20 Mar 2019 19:05

You can reach FATA by swinging around via Tibet no? I suspect cheen is completely nanga air defense wise there. Would also be a "measured" response for their UN ban shenanigans.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2019 19:51

First we need to agree for the need to spend on our MIC. Too many ivory tower leftists who pontificate " Pakistan is a long lost brother and real enemy is yindutva fundamentalism" are still infesting our corridors of power. These idiots delay everything with file notations and a grim faced Army chief then says "we will fight with what we have". He also has to explain to these geniuses that having INSAS is not enough and 155mm arty is a separate procurement. By the time Def Min intervenes and pushes files, months are lost. That's the bloody reason why from 2014 to 16, till Uri/Pathankot effects came in, files were still stuck.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby khan » 20 Mar 2019 19:54

abhik wrote:You can reach FATA by swinging around via Tibet no? I suspect cheen is completely nanga air defense wise there. Would also be a "measured" response for their UN ban shenanigans.

I don’t see why IAF can’t go in via the front door and take out anything that interferes with their right to go after terrorists.

They certainly have the capability. There will be casualties, but even more so on the Pakistani side - which they can even less afford to lose.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Kashi » 20 Mar 2019 20:01

If the Bakis place the terrorists camps in fata-cheethhra then doesn't it pose a bit of a logistics challenge for themselves?

To infiltrate into India, they'll have to travel at least 200 km, the longer time they spend on the road, the easier it gets to detect them, not to mention increases their overall expenses.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2019 20:03

https://www.livemint.com/politics/polic ... 08422.html
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... man/386092

New Delhi: In a significant decision, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has cleared the proposal to procure 10 lakh hand grenades for the Indian Army under its Make in India programme. A high-level meeting chaired by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman cleared the proposal on Wednesday afternoon.

The Rs 500 crore proposal comes shortly after the Defence Ministry cleared the acquisition of assault rifles and signed a joint venture with Russia to manufacture AK-203 rifles for the infantry units of the Indian Army. The newly manufactured hand grenades will replace the existing HE-36 grenades that have been manufactured by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

The latest addition to personal weapons of the Indian Army, these grenades have been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The grenades form a crucial weapon of the Army soldiers at the time of war as they can inflict heavy casualties to enemies by destroying enemy positions and bunkers.

Recently, the government also signed a contract worth Rs 700 crore for procurement of 70,000 Sig Sauer assault rifles with a US manufacturer. A JV has also been formed with Russia to manufacture AK-203 assault rifles. Modernisation of the armed forces is an ongoing process and assumes importance on the backdrop of the recent tensions between India and Pakistan in the aftermath of the February 14 Pulwama attack.


Glad to see procurement in full swing even before May.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 20 Mar 2019 20:15

From FATA to PoJK border, they'll need staging places and travel in groups. It still means that bahawalpur, muridke & pindi are still in range and they aint moving ISI hq to FATA or quetta.


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