VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 21 Mar 2019 04:30

chetak wrote:.......

the brits see you as the one that got away and more importantly, rightly or wrongly, as the sole reason for bringing their empire down.

they are going to give you nothing. Track their deeds since independence and understand clearly how they have sought to hobble you.

Now that the whiteys see you moving ahead, in spite of their best efforts, NO TECHNOLOGY of the kind you are hoping to get will ever be transferred.

you have no option but to do it on your own.

Why have all countries ganged up so purposefully to deny you technology??

We made headway in space and nuclear tech, not because of them but in spite of them.

1) Very true. And Brits used Nehru and IAF officers gullibility (Cranwell etc) and sold lemons. The damn Jaguar couldn't take off from high altitude base. And its bomb sights etc were abysmal. Note it beat the Saab Viggen and Mirage F1 to be selected as Deep Strike Aircraft!!!! If it wasn't for the Darin upgrades it was good for nothing. The ordnance usually was dud. Read the 1965 and 1971 war accounts with a critical eye. Gnats Aden guns used to jam. The plane needed expert pilots to fly it. The ships were rust tubs and it was the great IN sailors that kept them sea worthy.
2) Australia Group, London Suppliers, Wassenar, MTCR, all are clubs to keep mainly India only out.

All doors open once you already developed the technology and are ready to manufacture it in quantity.

Orange is a good student of Michael Porter theory of competition. He sees the French aviation industry as a big obstacle for US dominance in aircraft industry. So he wants to kill it. French A/C industry is a three legged stool : French air force,Indian Air Force, and some gulf countries. Its low budget industry and doesn't need many sales to keep it alive.
So the offer of US aircraft is to knock one of the legs of the French.
This also makes India dependent by reducing options.

About the Rafale don't spend so much time.

IAF wanted Mirage 2K features.
They put that in the AQSR to ensure they get what they want.
Originally wanted M2K replacement. Then folks added more to get to 126.
Think of what 126 MMRCA will do to IAF!
UPA wanted competition to appear to be fair.
The Russians, Swedes and EU got greedy and applied.
US felt why not join the gravy train as jiziya for IUCNA deal.
IAF did what they want and chose the Rafale the M2K successor in France.
The L1 etc were bokwas while UPA was negotiating to see who will give more kick backs.
And created an offset crony industry. That's what Ambani and Lootyens arms dealers are all about.
Meantime elections were held and NDA won.
The treasury was empty as AKA also stated.
MP cut the Gordian knot.
Made Defence budget is below 2% to ensure no imports.
And anyway the procurement cabal rejects everything under procedures and returns th money.
This charade was going on for ten years of UPA.
Net Defence budget was effectively that anyhow.


He even found $3B dollars parked in US by UPA and forgotten!!!
He let Tejas MK1A be the Mig-21 replacement and ordered it.
He then decoupled the Rafale 126 to the M2K replacement need for the IAF strategic requirements.
All the arms dealer crooks names are coming out via Christian Michels who was so sure he can hang out in Dubai instead of London like other crooks.
Soon the first Rafale will be delivered.
If IAF likes it and price is fright one or two more squadrons makes sense.
However if TSP collapses then not likely.
Need to strengthen the Navy.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 21 Mar 2019 05:37

Ramana saar, I feel that our procurement procedure of RFI-RFP-multi-vendor evaluation etc. which was created to avoid Bofors like scams and counteract dalals and to get us the best price, does not work well in big ticket acquisitions like MMRCA. I feel this procedure itself was the biggest culprit in the entire MMRCA fiasco. The financial bids could not be opened before the technical downselect was complete. Did nobody think about what would happen if we couldn't afford the price quoted? Or did they just not care? Especially considering the $10billion plus price tag being bandied about right from the start. It was always doomed to failure. Following regulations and procedure is well and good but in this case it left no scope for making any realistic assessment of the price of offered equipment vs our own financial capability to afford it. There has to be a feedback loop where if the price of the equipment being sought is too much for the country to afford, the technical specs need to be toned down to see if a cheaper alternative can be good enough.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 21 Mar 2019 05:58

Complex systems were once simple systems that worked.
Complexity is added by putting extra loops, building constraints, choking inflows and outflow gets to a drip.
I wish Vidur read this sentence.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Mar 2019 03:41

The Dassault Rafale, India & PM Modi: A Lucid, Cogent Explanation
by Abhijit-Iyer Mitra


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 31 Mar 2019 19:51

Do we have comparison data of Rafale's IRST vs. F35 EOTS?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 10 Apr 2019 04:17

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/11 ... 1425073152 ---> JUST IN: Supreme Court to deliver verdict on review petitions on the Rafale deal tomorrow.

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 10 Apr 2019 08:36

Only on the point “can stolen top secret govt documents be filed in the court as evidence”

But if SC decides in affirmative, which I think it’ll, mahamilabat and media will swing it as major setback for the government.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby negi » 10 Apr 2019 14:05

Milards have no work but luxury of cherry picking on high TRP issues , they will get corner plots in some gobmint layout , retire there and participate in award wapsi or candle light marches , the dumbest of the lot might get to chair a high powered committee to investigate some riot or ghotala in distant future .

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Pratyush » 10 Apr 2019 14:24

Katare wrote:Only on the point “can stolen top secret govt documents be filed in the court as evidence”

But if SC decides in affirmative, which I think it’ll, mahamilabat and media will swing it as major setback for the government.


Already have. But ultimately it will change nothing.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Paul » 10 Apr 2019 14:57

Ramana, to add to jaguar we missed lightning purchase by a whisker in 50s. The English wanted us to pay cash for them

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby rohitvats » 10 Apr 2019 16:31

Basis every account that I've read, IAF wanted Jaguar as DPSA. It was offered to IAF during initial stages of its development and procurement but IAF was not interested then. It was working on Marut. It took delivery of Jaguars a good decade after it was first offered to IAF. Also, IAF was aware of the short-comings of British and French system from day 1. That's how the indigenous development effort to improve its potential was undertaken.

Having said that, one aircraft that IAF was very very impressed with for DPSA role was the Blackbuck Buccaneer. It had phenomenal low-level, high subsonic/transonic performance with required range. But it was denied possibly because English/French were pushing for Jaguar and Buccaneer also had a nuclear role.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby CRamS » 10 Apr 2019 17:56

SC verdict rejecting govt's claim that Naxal Ram used stolen docs is a shot in the arm for Pappu. Note this Rafale BS that Pappu has been peddling is to sow seeds of confusion and doubt. So anything that can be perceived as going against ModiJi will be spun as 'see I told you so'. Already Pappu and his his gang have started the 'chowkidar chor hai' chorus citing latest SC decision. Thats all the matters. Fact that it changes nothing in terms of proving any of Pappu's bogus allegations doesn't matter. Its a propaganda 'victory' for Pappu no doubt.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 10 Apr 2019 18:13

Pappu and Pakistan are not that different when it comes to shamelessness in spreading lies and propaganda...
Sadly, lot of people in India do fall for such lies...

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish_P » 10 Apr 2019 19:32

rohitvats wrote:Having said that, one aircraft that IAF was very very impressed with for DPSA role was the Blackbuck Buccaneer. It had phenomenal low-level, high subsonic/transonic performance with required range. But it was denied possibly because English/French were pushing for Jaguar and Buccaneer also had a nuclear role.


Hate to be the nitpick-nazi Rohit sir, it was the Blackburn Buccaneer

I have heard/read a lot of gushing reviews & rather fond remembrances by ex-pilots of the Banana bomber as it was nicknamed, but few of the Big Cat. Was it something to do because the buccaneer was a more mature platform by the time the Jag was getting introduced. Also looks like the Jag was replaced by the Tornado's fairly quickly

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 10 Apr 2019 20:50

rohitvats wrote:Having said that, one aircraft that IAF was very very impressed with for DPSA role was the Blackbuck Buccaneer. It had phenomenal low-level, high subsonic/transonic performance with required range. But it was denied possibly because English/French were pushing for Jaguar and Buccaneer also had a nuclear role.


That would have been super cool to have! But I wonder about upgrade potential.

Also, I wonder how it would have been to have had the Viggen instead of the Jaguar, truly multirole IMHO.

In 1978, the United States blocked a major prospective sale to India, which would have involved selling a number of Swedish-built Viggens in addition to a licensed production agreement under which the Viggen would also have been built in India, by not issuing an export license for the RM8/JT8D engine and other American technologies used.[100][101] India later opted to procure the SEPECAT Jaguar in its place.[102] According to leaked U.S. diplomatic cables, India's interest in the Viggen was reported to be entirely due to Rajiv Gandhi's influence, and had alleged have been without any input from the Indian Air Force.[100][103] According to author Chris Smith, the Viggen had been the favoured candidate for the Indian Air Force prior to the deal being blocked by the US.[104]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_Viggen

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 10 Apr 2019 20:57

SaiK wrote:Do we have comparison data of Rafale's IRST vs. F35 EOTS?


Dassault Rafale vs F-35
https://defenseissues.net/2015/09/11/da ... e-vs-f-35/

Rafale’s primary air-to-air sensor is OSF optical sensor suite on top of the nose, and has 80/130 km detection range against subsonic targets. It consists of IRST sensor with 40 km identification range and video camera with 45-50 km identification range. In addition, it has RBE-2 radar, two fisheye IR MAWS sensors and 4 RWR sensors. MAWS and RWR sensors provide spherical coverage, and can be used to generate firing solution. It has framed canopy providing 360* horizontal and 197,7* vertical visibility, including 16* over the nose, 1,7* over the tail and 27* over the sides, with a maximum of 54* over the side visibility. RBE-2 has 120* angular coverage while RBE-2AA (AESA) has 140* angular coverage.

F-35 has a single IRST sensor (EOTS) under the nose, with 160 km detection range against low-flying targets in afterburner. It is a staring midwave (or dual-band) sensor covering low frontal sector. Additionally, its IR missile warning system (DAS) can (?) be used as IRST. This system provides spherical coverage, with a caveat that it is short-ranged when compared to full-blown IRST systems. It also has radar and RWR sensors. It has a sunk, framed canopy providing 340* horizontal and 188,5* vertical visibility, including 16* over the nose, -7,5* over the tail and 26* over the sides, with a maximum of 40* over the side visibility.

Overall, both aircraft have similar raw situational awareness. Rafale has the advantage of having air-to-air optimized IRST and 360* cockpit visibility, while F-35 may have spherical coverage with DAS providing optical feed to the pilot, assuming that helmet issues are solved. However, pilots still prefer not to use the helmet, as that way they can see with far more clarity and depth perception than what helmet allows. F-35s EOTS may be capable of detecting aircraft at 160 km from the rear, compared to 130 km detection range of OSF, but since aircraft detected was low-flying F-16 in afterburner, it is hard to estimate wether it will be able to detect aircraft from that distance at higher altitudes if it does not engage afterburner; answer is most likely no (most likely range is 50-55 km, based on factors outlined here). Its radar is also optimized for air-to-ground work.

However, data presentation is just as important as data collection when it comes to situational awareness. Rafale’s Human-Machine Interface is similar in concept to Gripen’s, being minimalistic so as to avoid potentially lethal data overload. On the other hand, F-35 presents huge quantity of information, typically in numerical form, which can easily overload the pilot. End result is that Rafale has significant advantage in situational awareness over the F-35.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 10 Apr 2019 23:08

Karan M wrote:
Also, I wonder how it would have been to have had the Viggen instead of the Jaguar, truly multirole IMHO.

It might have precluded both the Mig23 and M2k purchases later on. The Viggen had BVR capability with the PS-46 radar and Skyflash missiles plus an RWR and Ericsson jamming pod. Some serious capability for the time period.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 10 Apr 2019 23:45

Manish_P wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
Having said that, one aircraft that IAF was very very impressed with for DPSA role was the Blackbuck Buccaneer. It had phenomenal low-level, high subsonic/transonic performance with required range. But it was denied possibly because English/French were pushing for Jaguar and Buccaneer also had a nuclear role.


Hate to be the nitpick-nazi Rohit sir, it was the Blackburn Buccaneer

I have heard/read a lot of gushing reviews & rather fond remembrances by ex-pilots of the Banana bomber as it was nicknamed, but few of the Big Cat. Was it something to do because the buccaneer was a more mature platform by the time the Jag was getting introduced. Also looks like the Jag was replaced by the Tornado's fairly quickly


The Buccaneer was a more limited platform when compared to the Jaguar. I would thank our stars that we actually got the Jaguar and not the Buccaneer.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 11 Apr 2019 02:58

Pratyush wrote:
Katare wrote:Only on the point “can stolen top secret govt documents be filed in the court as evidence”

But if SC decides in affirmative, which I think it’ll, mahamilabat and media will swing it as major setback for the government.


Already have. But ultimately it will change nothing.


Everyone could see what the decision would be but still govt went with the privilege information logic. The govt needs to learn to handle the activists judiciary until it is tamed or starts to see the light itself. This is as much of a self goal as it gets.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 11 Apr 2019 03:10

Kartik is right. Vidhata was looking after India despite the turdy politicians.
Rajiv Gandhi selecting Viggen was based on how much hafta he would get. Failing this he went for Bofors.
The DARIN upgrade was awesome systems engineering by IAF led by our Abhibhushan saar.
I only wish HAl had not put monkey wrench in the Honeywell aero engine upgrade and delayed the procurement.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2019 03:40

https://twitter.com/arunjaitley/status/ ... 8446929920 ---> All that the court has today said is that even a wrongly procured document can be considered for review.

https://twitter.com/arunjaitley/status/ ... 2028857344 ---> The issue which delights the beleaguered opposition is at best 'procedural'.

https://twitter.com/arunjaitley/status/ ... 3808078848 ---> A petition seeking the review of the judgement of the Supreme Court is pending.

https://twitter.com/arunjaitley/status/ ... 0230353923 ---> The CAG has cleared the deal

https://twitter.com/arunjaitley/status/ ... 5238935552 ----> The petition challenging the Rafale decision was dismissed

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2019 03:47

First Rafale Handed Over to Qatar
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... over-qatar

By Jon Lake

The first batch of pilots trained for Qatar in November 2017 were Pakistani exchange officers.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 11 Apr 2019 04:09

So apparently Jon Lake has an article on the Qatari AF picking up their Rafales and apparently some of the first set of pilots training on the Rafale were PAF exchange pilots. :roll:
This is what happens when we depend on imports, imports, imports.
Anyhow, I hope IAF takes into account that the rough performance parameters of all their kit will be known to the Pakis.
It only matters so much. Pakis knew much about the Mirage 2000-V having received classified briefings on it. But they couldn't do diddly on Feb 27th.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2019 04:14

Karan, you should see the rhona-dhona on twitter. My oh my! :lol:

You cannot escape this. Just a fact. Take a look at all the seven aircraft in the competition;

1) F-16: Enough Said :)
2) F-18 Super Hornet: Flown by the Kuwaiti Air Force
3) Typhoon: Flown by Saudi Arabia
4) Su-35: China
5) Rafale: Qatar, as indicated above
6) MiG-35: Nobody wants this :lol:
7) Gripen E: Still in IOC mode, but I am sure the Paks will get their hands on via some rich Gulf nation

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 11 Apr 2019 04:16

Well it is still better than buying the F-16, which we are still somehow looking at for the new MRCA boondoggle. PAF has 30 plus years experience on the type and know the performance parameters inside out. Yet that didn't disqualify it. So I guess the IAF won't be too concerned about a few pakis getting trained on the Rafale.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2019 04:19

nachiket wrote:Well it is still better than buying the F-16, which we are still somehow looking at for the new MRCA boondoggle. PAF has 30 plus years experience on the type and know the performance parameters inside out. Yet that didn't disqualify it. So I guess the IAF won't be too concerned about a few pakis getting trained on the Rafale.

We could not alienate LM just because the PAF flies it. So best to let it compete and then reject it outright, just like in the first MMRCA contest.

Sometimes you need to advertise your capability in this manner. Let the Paks know, what the Rafale is capable of doing. All the more better.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Bart S » 11 Apr 2019 04:20

That is the risk that we run with AF in Arab countries employing Pakis in various capacities and buying the same imported maal that we do. Even if the French didn't train them classified info on the platforms would probably still make its way to the Pakis either directly (as in this case) or indirectly.

Having said that, I hope the GOI takes this up with the French, if they haven't already. This is the second such thing in the recent past involving the French, the last one being the submarine manual leaks.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 11 Apr 2019 04:24

Rakesh wrote:We could not alienate LM just because the PAF flies it. So best to let it compete and then reject it outright, just like in the first MMRCA contest.

LM would be happier if we don't waste their time I think. IAF could have included an additional line in the ASQR saying the platform cannot be currently in use by adversarial forces. No need to mention any specific type.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2019 04:40

Nachiket ---> How long can we hold off other nations?

Say for example if Gripen E wins the latest contest. We induct the planes and then Saab wins a contract for Gripen E at some rich Gulf nation. What do we do then?

Kuwait is taking delivery of the F-18 Super Hornet. What is the guarantee that the KuAF are not going to get some PAF pilots on exchange for F-18 conversion training?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 11 Apr 2019 04:43

No contest/vontest.
The Swedes won't be selected.

No one will make money selling to India and Pak.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2019 04:45

Ramana-ji, France and America (and many other nations) are doing it right under our nose.

France - Agosta 90B to Pakistan and Scorpene to India

US - F-16 Block 50/52 to Pakistan and desperately wanting to sell F-16 and/or F-18 to India.

Sweden - Saab Eriye to Pakistan and desperately wanting to sell Gripen E to India.

Russia - Mi-35 to Pakistan and Mi-35 to India

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 11 Apr 2019 04:46

Rakesh wrote:Nachiket ---> How long can we hold off other nations?

Say for example if Gripen E wins the latest contest. We induct the planes and then Saab wins a contract for Gripen E at some rich Gulf nation. What do we do then?

Kuwait is taking delivery of the F-18 Super Hornet. What is the guarantee that the KuAF are not going to get some PAF pilots on exchange for F-18 conversion training?

By adversarial forces, I only meant Pakistan and China. Gulf nations letting pakis evaluate their jets is different from us buying a design that Pakis have been operating since the 80's.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Apr 2019 04:50

nachiket wrote:By adversarial forces, I only meant Pakistan and China. Gulf nations letting pakis evaluate their jets is different from us buying a design that Pakis have been operating since the 80's.

Oops, my bad. I mis-understood what you meant. Sorry.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 11 Apr 2019 04:59

Rakesh wrote:Ramana-ji, France and America (and many other nations) are doing it right under our nose.

France - Agosta 90B to Pakistan and Scorpene to India

US - F-16 Block 50/52 to Pakistan and desperately wanting to sell F-16 and/or F-18 to India.

Sweden - Saab Eriye to Pakistan and desperately wanting to sell Gripen E to India.

Russia - Mi-35 to Pakistan and Mi-35 to India

Zamana badal raha hain.

France had a come to Jesus moment lately.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vivek K » 11 Apr 2019 05:52

Rakesh you forgot to add
Russia

RD 93 to Pukis and RD33 to India
Mi 17 to Pukis and to India

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 11 Apr 2019 07:11

at the most PAF would know about manouvering capability of Rafale and how to develop tactics around the capability let’s say BFM and if the use same weapon like mica or meteor its capabilities and how to train around it

But beyond that key capabiliti s like Radar EW ELINT datalink etc and iaf tactics will be unique somthing paf can’t have access to and will have to face it.

Remember It was the superior combat tactics of bison pilot that killed the F16 not that the latter was not a superior fighter in most aspects

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 11 Apr 2019 07:13

Tweet
Conversation

Aviator Anil Chopra
@Chopsyturvey
Yes Pakistanis have been closely supporting Qatari Armed forces. Even in 1985 when we were ferrying Mirage 2000s to India, the Brigadier in Doha who came to see us at the Tarmac was a Pakistani officer

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish_P » 11 Apr 2019 08:44

Kartik wrote:
The Buccaneer was a more limited platform when compared to the Jaguar. I would thank our stars that we actually got the Jaguar and not the Buccaneer.


And then our SDRE engineers/aviators actually went ahead and fixed a couple of the big cats faults, making it an even better platform! Maybe that's what hurt the ego of the stiff upper lippers. That and it being a part French project.

Austin
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 11 Apr 2019 09:48

It would have been better to buy the Migrage F-1 me thinks ......Jags in IAF service faced many issues post induction and still have issues with its engine derating in hot climate

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby negi » 11 Apr 2019 10:07

We hardly bought a platform on pure merit , our acquisitions on our end were mostly influenced by whom we were courting at that time , there was a phase when we bought mostly British stuff latter sold us whatever was nearing end of it's life , then we got closer to Russians and we got some love due to geopolitical reasons and now we wish to buy EU/American.


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