MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2019 20:27

Bishwa wrote:
Karan M wrote:
But then it wont be context specific. How will the firmware know if nukes are carried or missile is on an offensive mission not a defensive one..


AMRAAM does not carry nukes ;-) And an AMRAAM outside Pakistani Airspace can be deemed offensive.

I dont have any specific evidence of this being implemented. So i will not push this line of thought after this reply.


What I mean is simple.. AMRAAMs should not be used if say a F-16 is into a mission where its carrying nukes. It simply cannot know that. Second, AMRAAMs outside Pakistani airspace = offensive? Would the Pakistanis be such idiots to buy so many F-16s then? Lets give some credit to their intelligence.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2019 20:29

Lalmohan wrote:satcom transceivers are quite large and require a lot of power, will not fit in an amraam, doubt it makes practical sense to fit it into a regular F16
the 'kill switch' is basically an unkil agent telling babuloge that 'trust us, they won't do anything, we have their golas in our amritraj like grip'
the F16's and amraams were sold to paks to placate them on our Su30 and Mig29 build up - so that they would contribute to the afghan war on unkil's behalf. this is why unkil steps in quickly to 'defuse tensions' so that there is no escalation to an air war

(corrected satnav to satcom)


Well said, just like TOW-2As were sold when we bought Kontakt-V equipped T-90s en masse!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2019 20:33

Correct. With the ISI everything is possible. They own the country on behalf of the Pakistani Army and even the PAF isn't exempt.

Aditya G wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Dear Ulan Batori.......
It isnt easy to cover up a shootdown & death. The pilots wife would have a family & social circle of her own and those interacting with them would have noticed. The pilot's child would be going to school and his classmates and their families would have noticed. Social media messages would have been there of the F-16 crash site and pilot and its impossible to censor every message even by the best of Governments.

....y.


Pakistan has successfully suppressed death of their army men including officers for years, starting with at the Kargil war.

Every year we kill scores of them at LoC. You hear about every single indian death including NCOs of army and CAPFs. How many do we know of from Pak Army?

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2019 20:42

Very very doubtful. For them to do this, would involve a complete change in what the US typically allows vis a vis its equipment. You'd have to have S-Band AEW&C provide X-Band APG-68 V(9) equivalent precision updates (in missile guidance mode, i.e. highest precision tracking) which is itself dodgy since this is a very small missile with a small dish, so it needs as much help as possible, much more than a naval SAM. Nor is the radar balance beam on the Erieye, like a typical naval radar or land based system with a huge aperture for the finest beam possible to generate the highest resolution to help the missile, next - the SAAB guys would have had to put a high power transmitter on their AWACS to allow it to stay far away (i.e. act like an AWACS) and yet guide these missiles in.

Short version, not at all likely. US would burst a capillary at the thought. They carefully monitor the manner in which their equipment is used and while we do know of the Gripen's buddy designation capability, it just feeds off of the approval the PS/05-A would have got from the US MIC to guide the missile.

More likely, the AWACS can handle Link-16 info & share that with the Paki F-16s. Useful in itself but not missile guidance.

tsarkar wrote:I have myself posted that the primary cause of our not hitting back was because of the very restricted RoE that day whereas the Pakistanis went all out for the kill using long range shots supported by Erieye AWACS. I do believe Swedish systems can transmit datalink updates to their missiles.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramdas » 22 Mar 2019 20:51

@tsarkar:

What about the possibility of a shootdown with no deaths? After all, two Paki pilots are supposed to have bailed out. What if they both survived ? Then covering up the F-16 shootdown by clearing the wreckage is easy for the Pakis.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Primus » 22 Mar 2019 20:54

habal wrote:pakistan is ruled by the army, thus there is no RoE for them.

Now coming to India. Here armed forces are ruled officialy by politicians (people's representatives), but unoficially by IAS bureaucrats manning MoD, MEA, cabinet secretaries, IAS deputed to PMO, PS to PM etc. Now for this bunch it is important to preserve their credibility to foreign embassies, for sake of Green Card holder son, daughter-in-law, dadaji, mamaji based in US.
Next WB/IMF/UN/ICJ/basel convention deputation depends upon their 'international acceptability' (trans to inaffectualness, passiveness), son studying college in massa etc.


Not sure I agree completely here. Yes, 'Babus' are loathe to get their hands dirty, but the reasons you mention are not entirely true.

This lot will never allow any alteration to RoE if they can help it. As tsarkar mentioned, any armed services personnel who violates this RoE will be punished severely to satisfy the gallery to international approvers whom this group is catering to.


Yes, this may well be the case and there is enough justification in peacetime for this, else you will have Rambos doing things that would not always be in the national interest. However, it is not to 'play to a gallery' but to maintain the civilian and elected democratic government control over the military. Else we might as well become another Bakistan.

So thus you see the dichotomy while politicians are all gung ho and 'giving go ahead for any action', nothing concrete is taking place.

Only way to remove this restriction on RoE is to hand over any operation completely to a CDS or air/army chief and that will take away any obstructions bureaucracy can pose in a taking fight back into enemy territory.


I thought that (bolded part) was the case here. Are you saying that the chain of command does NOT go like this:

PM>NSA/DM>COAS>Regional Commander>Squadron Commander>Pilot

There may be a few others in the chain, but where does the Babu come in? Are you saying the ground controller is a Babu? How does he even know what to do with all that information? I am not sure this is how it all works, but I may be wrong.

There is a lot that happened that we do not know about. I've said this elsewhere, it would not be in our interest to keep asking for details or probing this deeply. I am sure that the armed forces have really had complete (well, almost) freedom to retaliate in a fitting manner without tying their hands. There have to be general guidelines but within a broad framework they must have been given definite RoE from the top.

I think it does the brave people on the front lines a disservice to question their actions in this manner. From what you are saying, WingCo would become an aberration and no longer a daring soldier who took the fight to the enemy.

Just my opinion of course.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Y I Patel » 22 Mar 2019 20:59

Why is it that Indians of all persuasions and from all walks of life feel compelled to question, doubt, and second guess their own leaders and colleagues at all times and regardless of the situation at hand?

The Argumentative Indian is not just a stereotype. It is an archetype.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby shyamal » 22 Mar 2019 21:04

Y I Patel wrote:Why is it that Indians of all persuasions and from all walks of life feel compelled to question, doubt, and second guess their own leaders and colleagues at all times and regardless of the situation at hand?

The Argumentative Indian is not just a stereotype. It is an archetype.

+100
F16 downing is not a speculation. It s the stated position of our armed forces - who do not usually over-hype their achievements.
That should be good enough.
Unless one has actual proof that it did not happen(not possible to have unless you can physically account for all the F16s which no one in India can do) rest is all speculation. Quite harmful if done to an excess.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Y I Patel » 22 Mar 2019 21:30

There could be one of three broad reasons for the failure of AMRAAM missiles:

- PAF incompetence
- Superior IAF tactics
- USA kill switch

Solution to the first two involves improvements to PAF capability. Solution to the third involves discarding of all US supplied weapons or not using them until a fix is found, AND it also engenders deep mistrust in USA as a supplier and ally.


Your choice what you want to believe and speak of right now.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2019 21:35

Its just 2. Superior IAF tactics.

PAF isn't that incompetent. They aren't myth making heroes either but aren't clowns.

We have a lot of experience fighting against NATO AF in exercises and AMRAAM operators and have picked up tips and tricks on how to combat an active radar homing threat.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nam » 22 Mar 2019 21:39

It would be quite easy for Pak to hide any causalities for the next 2-3 months. Most of the service men may not call home during a "crisis". After 3 months, there is always the training accident excuse.

Pak had all the plans to bolster the F16 fleet. JF17 was meant for tier 2 replacement. That is why it's BVR is still not operational. 2010 onwards Pak economy was doing well and there was US doles coming as well. So they had all the plans for free F16 from US doles and some from their money.

Once the economy sank and US doles dried out, the plans dropped. Remember the last batch was not bought because US refused to pay for it.

So this US able to restrict Aim120 is all B**s**.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 22 Mar 2019 21:47

Exactly nam! Well said. This restricting AIM-120 is indeed all BS onlee.

If Ashton Carter did indeed make such a statement to Manohar Parrikar, the question arises what was the need to make such a statement? Obviously that would have been verified by our combat pilots in India and the answer would have been a resounding BS!

Apart from this un-verified statement, there have been assurances given to India that US-supplied weapons to Pakistan would not be used against India. The most recent being the 18 F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft supplied with 500 AIM-120 AMRAAMS. I wonder who in the Taliban the PAF was planning to use them against :lol:

One thing is certain - regardless of this possibly "fake" Carter-Parrikar meeting - the US is indeed an unreliable ally. Their political set up, unfortunately makes it such.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Mar 2019 21:50

^^nam it depends upon the number, obviously training casualty numbers can't be so high. That's why smashing their H&D with large casualties is important especially in a sustained manner

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Mar 2019 21:51

Are we buying an Fteen anymore? Our Philipov must be very happy at elimination of serious competition.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 22 Mar 2019 21:56

nothing short of a replay of the Mariana's Turkey Shoot over pakistan is going to please jingos here... inshallah one day!

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 22 Mar 2019 21:59

ArjunPandit wrote:Are we buying an Fteen anymore? Our Philipov must be very happy at elimination of serious competition.

The F-16 never stood a chance in the MMRCA competition. Even in its new avatar - the F-21 - chances of winning are slim.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby mmasand » 22 Mar 2019 22:06

Y I Patel wrote:Why is it that Indians of all persuasions and from all walks of life feel compelled to question, doubt, and second guess their own leaders and colleagues at all times and regardless of the situation at hand?

The Argumentative Indian is not just a stereotype. It is an archetype.


Trust deficit and an the compelling need to challenge a position. We are an opinionated bunch.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2019 22:28

Rakesh wrote:Exactly nam! Well said. This restricting AIM-120 for India's benefit is indeed all BS onlee.


Edited. ;)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Rakesh » 22 Mar 2019 22:29

Karan M wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Exactly nam! Well said. This restricting AIM-120 for India's benefit is indeed all BS onlee.


Edited. ;)

I like that :)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2019 22:32

Rakesh wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Are we buying an Fteen anymore? Our Philipov must be very happy at elimination of serious competition.

The F-16 never stood a chance in the MMRCA competition. Even in its new avatar - the F-21 - chances of winning are slim.


Even after all this if the F/A-18 E/F and F-16 have chances, we are dunces.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby yensoy » 22 Mar 2019 22:44

- F/A-18/F-21 will be a geopolitical decision, not a military one.

- We will always seek corroborating evidence. All here trust the government position regarding shoot down of the F-16. But won't we love it if there was public evidence of the downing available? As for the pilots it should be easier to flag - however there is a possibility that he/they are alive and recuperating in a military hospital because there has been no GoI statement regarding the fate of the pilot(s).

- It is absolutely clear that the Indian Armed Forces have the highest levels of credibility, and so does the GoI on matters of such gravitas (politicians speaking at a political rally is a different story altogether). This trust should never be broken. Our freedom struggle was founded on solid ethical principles, and these principles flowed into the constitution after independence. At the end of the day, that is what we have which distinguishes us from other nations.

- AMRAAM kill switch, GPS, Satcom etc don't need to be located on the AMRAAM - they use the GPS and Satcom already on the F-16 to figure out whether to go for the kill or fizzle out. I am not saying that there is a geofence, just that it is feasible.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 22 Mar 2019 23:43

Can we stop discussing the AMRAAM kill switch now? It was just a case of some US official trying to placate us with lies. Funny thing is they were telling this to Parrikar of all people, who would be the last person to be taken in by this kind of nonsense.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2019 23:49

Y I Patel wrote:Why is it that Indians of all persuasions and from all walks of life feel compelled to question, doubt, and second guess their own leaders and colleagues at all times and regardless of the situation at hand?

The Argumentative Indian is not just a stereotype. It is an archetype.



This is not 1999 during Kargil. A lot of secular educated people are left over in BRF. Its usual liberal intellectuals who question. And admin policy has encouraged retaining them here.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby mmasand » 22 Mar 2019 23:50

nachiket wrote:Can we stop discussing the AMRAAM kill switch now? It was just a case of some US official trying to placate us with lies. Funny thing is they were telling this to Parrikar of all people, who would be the last person to be taken in by this kind of nonsense.


I hope he is looking down at the hooris getting spanked instead of cajoling 72 virgins, whilst, enjoying his fenny and fish.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2019 23:51

mmasand wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:Why is it that Indians of all persuasions and from all walks of life feel compelled to question, doubt, and second guess their own leaders and colleagues at all times and regardless of the situation at hand?

The Argumentative Indian is not just a stereotype. It is an archetype.


Trust deficit and an the compelling need to challenge a position. We are an opinionated bunch.



Sorry if that is why you are here, then you/they may leave.
While I am admin will not allow such mindset here.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby VKumar » 23 Mar 2019 00:00

About F16 pilot death. Had seen a tweet from someone reportedly in London saying that the dead pilots family had confirmed to him, being a very close relative. Thereafter the tweet disappeared and no repeats.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Y I Patel » 23 Mar 2019 01:00

ramana wrote:
mmasand wrote:
Trust deficit and an the compelling need to challenge a position. We are an opinionated bunch.



Sorry if that is why you are here, then you/they may leave.
While I am admin will not allow such mindset here.

Ramana mmasand got my rhetorical question and who it was addressed to. To clarify I was referring to AM Masand’s article. Apologies if I was too elliptical.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Mar 2019 01:10

VKumar wrote:About F16 pilot death. Had seen a tweet from someone reportedly in London saying that the dead pilots family had confirmed to him, being a very close relative. Thereafter the tweet disappeared and no repeats.

Another thing is that these guys are very disciplined on the common cause. They are mindful of chatter for their own cause. Similar issue was discovered with some kashmiri leader raping girl, but the matter was buried under carpet for the sake of kashmiri cause. Need to search for it, it was running along with asifa case.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 23 Mar 2019 02:08

I am going to respond to tsarkarji. Apologies for length of post

tsarkar wrote:Dear Ulan Batori, Bishwa & others,
Air Marshal Harish Masand is a 1971 veteran with a Sabre kill over East Pakistan on the first day of war.
And Group Captain Hari Nair is the HAL Chief Test Pilot flying Dhruv, Rudra, LCH & LUH that everyone drools over on this forum. I would humbly request some respect for their point of view. Needless to say, they know their stuff.


I have the greatest respect for both. In their respective professions and as officers and gentlemen. But we are creatures of the streets of the Internet where they are both babes in the woods. On BRF, they (or whoever poses as them) is treated exactly as if they were a 4-th grader like me. So we dispose of that point right off the bat. I am happy to read factual posts "dispassionately" but not with brain turned off like a Paki AMRAAM. :mrgreen:

It isnt easy to cover up a shootdown & death. The pilots wife would have a family & social circle of her own and those interacting with them would have noticed. The pilot's child would be going to school and his classmates and their families would have noticed. Social media messages would have been there of the F-16 crash site and pilot and its impossible to censor every message even by the best of Governments.


See "babes in the woods" above and please add urself, namaskar. Our analysis of the events of that day are based on capturing and remembering the FIRST reports - b4 the Spin Doctors took over. Let me recap a few points: PLEASE REMEMBER THESE because I may get banned for my reaction at the next person to ignore these. Please be considerate to me, thanks in advance.

1. Pakistan first reported TWO Indian pilots in custody, a third being hunted. One was "in hospital with critical injuries". One was in custody, not so injured. And one was "still at large, trying to get back to his country". Can you explain this? Which other Indian planes are missing?

2. A Pakistani lawyer in London tweeted that an Air Marshal's son, a Wing Commander, was shaheed. He cited source as the family, who were his friends, in Pakistan. It appeared to be a serious post. I have not seen anyone debunk it.

3. In the weeks since, said son has not been reported alive: SURELY Pak twits would have been loud in their gloating.

4. A video surfaced, soon, but not soon enough to be scam-proof, of contrails with puffs of white (no black) smoke, along with 2 or 3 parachutes in the sky. I THINK I remember two chutes in the sky at the same time (a few seconds of altitude apart).


5. Nowhere have I seen an AAM trail coming it at a separate angle towards the plane at the end of the contrails and exploding, b4 or after a parachute opened from it. Surely the Pakis with the video cameras would have zoomed in to that immediately. So I just have not seen the events leading to the disabling of the MiG. The contrails would have stayed for several minutes. Maybe the MiG engine quit (debris ingestion) and it lost altitude, so they saw a parachute, but had no idea where that came from: the plane had dropped in one piece, rather than the explosion of the PAF plane.

I know VikramS posted that the contrails showed an AAM coming at the MiG but I did not see it. Maybe others have.
*********************************************************************************

All other twits, videos are suspect. But at the time that the above were posted, the Pakis were fully convinced that they had shot down TWO indian planes, one of them a TWO-SEATER. Su-30 was hoped for.
They IMMEDIATELY declared that they had no role in the crash of the helicopter "near Srinagar". Which made it 399% certain that it was their doing, and they knew it would be highly provocative. MAYBE the helicopter was not the intended target, but I don't believe that either. Maybe they shot at anything flying on Indian side. Miracle that the Air Asia airliner was not downed.

Maybe the 5 points above should be pinned to a "Please Read B4 Posting Theories Citing Ur Vast Experience" at the top. A similar set of facts is there for Balakot, but that is harder and more speculative.
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby A_Gupta » 23 Mar 2019 02:43

tsarkar wrote:Coming to official narrative, as a kid I had read Nirmal Jit Singh's PVC official citation mentioning that he shot down a Sabre over Srinagar and sent another back on fire. Srinagar is Indian territory and no Sabre wreckage was found in vicinity. We now know that while he took on 6 Sabres, he didnt shoot any down. His citation nowadays is suitably edited to "hit one Sabre and set another on fire". On that cloudy day with Ghumman's Gnat lost and NJS ejecting at low altitude and not surviving, and thus with no eyewitnesses, I wonder who wrote the narrative for the citation.


A reference of when the citation was edited would be useful.
Thanks!

PS: why I ask - the best I can tell, the PVC insignia was given to Nirmal Jit Singh Sekhon's widow on Republic Day, 1972; and the best I can tell is that the 1972 citation says what you wrote: "hit one Sabre and set another on fire". So I'm curious. It is highly relevant, because the implicit claim here is that the IAF is prone to misinformation and so we should not set store on what they tell us about Wg. Cdr. Abhinandan.

PPS: https://answer2pakteahouse.blogspot.com ... irmal.html
The highlight on the images below is due to the search terms

Image

Image
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 23 Mar 2019 03:17

I don't know about these citations and claims, but I do know someone who read the newspapers avidly during the wars of 1965 and 1971. The Sekhon dogfights were reported immediately in the newspapers, and the citation basically repeated what was reported then. IMO everything reported in Indian newspapers during those times citing govt. sources was essentially the truth.

There is an assertion in tsarkar's post that no sabre debris was found this side of the LOC. I don't know about that: I do know that Sabres were reported downed in the Srinagar dogfight at the time, along with what seemed like honest acknowledgement of Indian losses. Sekhon was vastly outnumbered but fought to the end. Did the newspapers get it wrong then?

What they hid was the truth that would have caused an internal conflagration: that the vast, vast majority of victims of Paki atrocities in East Pak were Hindus. Maybe the grownups knew this, maybe they didn't, but not a word came in the newspapers, including the "Blitz" report on the Jagannath Hall(?) women's hostel in Dhaka. Maybe northern people knew that Jagannath Hall would have only Hindus, but southerners did not.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 23 Mar 2019 03:21

Unlike 1971, the IAF had ground radar and AWACS data this time to give them an accurate picture of what happened.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby A_Gupta » 23 Mar 2019 03:39

Yakherder,

I found the official Jan 20 1972 citation as published in the Gazette of India. Look above, PPS to my post.

So let me understand -- yours and tsarkar's claim is that between December 14, 1971 and January 19, 1972, one or both of you read the Param Vir Chakra citation, and it said that Flying Officer Nirmal Singh Jit Sekhon shot down a Sabre, and this was edited by January 20, 1972 to "secured hits on one aircraft and set another on fire".

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 23 Mar 2019 04:21

Y I Patel wrote:Why is it that Indians of all persuasions and from all walks of life feel compelled to question, doubt, and second guess their own leaders and colleagues at all times and regardless of the situation at hand?

The Argumentative Indian is not just a stereotype. It is an archetype.


This has become a pathology almost to the point where its impossible to teach an Indian anything except that which s/he already "knows". From the most open minded people in the world, we have reached a point where ku-tark/sophistry has become a 'class marker' (now I need to wash my mouth with soap for using marxist terminology).

The answer to this 'I am only asking a question', 'I am only expressing a doubt', 'its muh right to ask a question', 'you are not open minded'.. line needs to be robust and this attitude needs to be exposed for what it is.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby fanne » 23 Mar 2019 04:28

I have a innocent ask
TSP claimed that they downed two Indian planes - We admitted one, and are not defending (or even talking) about the other. What is to talk? It did not happen.

Why is TSP everyday coming with evidence that F-16 was not shot down, some time with two missiles (R-73 and R-77), incompetently claiming that both were R-73 and since they have both, they were never fired and hence no F-16 down. Other time, they then show 4 missiles (possibly splitting the third as two missile or showing part of the head that in many case survives a successful intercept)….Why they are hopping mad to prove that F-16 wasn't shot? Chor ke dahi me tinka (we are not hopping mad that SU30MKI was not shot down).

F-16 was shot down, least because it is IAF stated position, but because it happened.

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Mar 2019 04:38

the lady doth protesteth too much... (PAF re F16)

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby sudeepj » 23 Mar 2019 04:42

tsarkar wrote:Dear Ulan Batori, Bishwa & others,

Air Marshal Harish Masand is a 1971 veteran with a Sabre kill over East Pakistan on the first day of war.

And Group Captain Hari Nair is the HAL Chief Test Pilot flying Dhruv, Rudra, LCH & LUH that everyone drools over on this forum. I would humbly request some respect for their point of view. Needless to say, they know their stuff.

...

Rest assured, our pilot's bravery and our equipment was not short on performance here. The C3 structure and leadership is at fault for not factoring the possibility of BVR shots from across the border. Hope they learn from the debacle and improve. And give people in the field full authority to act freely.


I am sure AM Masand and GC Nair saab are thorough soldiers, but are you sure they are disciplined enough to conduct information warfare? May I humbly submit, that you, and perhaps even them, perhaps all of us, are infected with this serious disease called argumentative Indian-itis.

We all know, truth is the first casualty to die in War. Even Yudhistir had to say, '.. naro va kunjaro ..' in war. Some times, you have to scare the enemies population using propaganda. Some times, you have to goad him into doing something rash. Some times, you have to reassure your own people about some goings on, to deny the enemy the propaganda advantage.

After Pearl Harbor, no pictures of dead Americans made it to the US. Appropriate reporting and opinion pieces were written to gird the nations resolve towards the required course of action. If the Americans had this disease 'argumentative Indian-itis' infecting them at the time, they would have demanded that the trrooth be told to the people.. It was their right to know in a democracy etc. etc. etc.

I personally am not convinced that this would have been the right course of action, when the conflict was going on. AM Masand, GC Nair, you, me and every one else should use their judgement to figure out if the conflict was still on and if we need to examine the Trrooth, right now...

Please note, that this is not a comment on the truth value of the statement 'Abhinandana shot down an F16', but a comment about this infectious disease called argumentative indian-itis.

UlanBatori
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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby UlanBatori » 23 Mar 2019 04:49

Simple:

Jeet lo man ko..
path kar UBCN
:mrgreen:

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby A_Gupta » 23 Mar 2019 05:21

I am pissed off because of the implication that India awards flippantly its highest honor for valor, Param Vir Chakra and edits the citation "nowadays".

Considering all that was going on in that time, to do the official investigation, interview of witnesses, etc., and come up with the official citation a little over 5 weeks (Dec 14, 71 - Jan 20, 72) is awesome.

Then I'm pissed off because this misremembered "I read the official Param Vir Chakra citation" is used to throw doubt on today's situation.

BTW, in the book "Param Vir: Our Heroes in Battle" By Major General Ian Cardozo (2003), the author is careless. In the main text he narrates "Sekhon shot down one Sabre", but elsewhere in the book, he gives the text of the PVC citation as provided above (and it is from that citation that I had the search keys to find the original).

It is true that in a situation like this:
1. media reports from random sources - always be skeptical
2. media reports based on a (not provided) official report - usually much better
3. official report - best, especially if a mis-statement in such would tarnish the honor attached to a national award

Right now, we're at best at (2.).

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Re: MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Postby nachiket » 23 Mar 2019 06:16

From AM Masand's article: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/today ... shera.html

Without taking anything away from Wing Commander Abhinandan’s bravery, and his later conduct in captivity which we all salute, it is surprising that the Air Force decided to pit MiG-21s, perhaps mixed with some Su-30s as reported, against incoming F-16s. I was in charge of the MiG-21 upgrade to Bison standards from initial evaluation of proposals in 1993 till after contract conclusion in 1996 so I know exactly what the Bison is capable of in terms of its combat capability, including avionics and weaponry. The MiG-21 Bison has also reportedly performed admirably against later generation aircraft in all international exercises it has taken part in. However, the airframe and engine of the Bison remain almost the same limiting its maneuverability and close combat capabilities against more agile aircraft like the F-16.


I have to admit when I initially saw the news of the loss of WingCo Abhinandan's Mig-21 my thoughts were somewhat similar to the bolded part. But thinking about it further, it actually makes a lot more sense. Unlike say for example during Kargil, when there was a wartime deployment of several squadrons or detachments to forward bases like Srinagar and Udhampur, this time the IAF was basically defending the airspace in J&K with what was available nearby.

WingCo Abhinandan's squadron (No. 51) is permanently deployed in Srinagar, so it would be impossible for them not to be tasked with the CAP. There is no other fighter squadron in Srinagar or Udhampur to my knowledge. The Su-30's and M2k's came from farther out, perhaps Pathankot and Ambala. AM Masand also mentions the low number of aircraft scrambled for the intercept but the situation would have been very different with a wartime forward deployment. Without it I'm not sure where the large number of defenders of more modern types like the Su-30/M2k/Mig-29 could quickly come from.

As an aside, we have only a very small number of upgraded M2ks. I am assuming the ones involved in the engagement were from among these. Because the non-upgraded M2k is at a severe disadvantage vs the F-16 in BVR. In fact I would say that the Bison with its R-77s and R-73+HMS combo might actually be better.


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