ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

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Aditya_V
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Apr 2019 18:29

This seems more of long range SAM against aircraft while PDV and AAD do the anti ballistic missile work

Austin
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 01 Apr 2019 18:35

I have seen those figures before the export model displayed so far has been restricted in capabilities based on brochure of Almaz Antey.

Viktor Gumyonny is deputy commander of Russian air force and he is directly mentioning about the capabilites of new missile having outspace capability , this not some unnamed sources I am quoting

brar_w
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 01 Apr 2019 18:40

Austin wrote:I have seen those figures before the export model displayed so far has been restricted in capabilities based on brochure of Almaz Antey.

Viktor Gumyonny is deputy commander of Russian air force and he is directly mentioning about the capabilites of new missile having outspace capability.


The performance listed is that of the 40N6E and that is exactly what I wrote in my post that you quoted.

Now can the Russian missile variant intercept everything from drone flying at 10 meters above ground to a Satellite above 100 km? Perhaps, but the performance listed is of the system that India, China and Turkey are getting and the 3 articles I mentioned that cite the 380 ABT range (that is the range specified for the E variant) claim the exact same thing. The Jane's technical presentation from last year also claims the same very thing.

Aditya_V wrote:This seems more of long range SAM against aircraft while PDV and AAD do the anti ballistic missile work


Yes this is what it is, Long range SAM with point defense BMD capability. If you want longer range Area defense BMD capability (measured in XXX km coverage or more) then PDV and AAD are the solutions to go for.

Austin
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 01 Apr 2019 19:43

I doubt Jane’s or any one would know what india is getting brochure wise yes every one will quote it

But actual capability and configuration would be a military secret

Aditya in the IAF officer presentation he mentioned S-400 will also be used in ABM role ,Karan had linked it

brar_w
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 01 Apr 2019 19:46

Austin wrote:I doubt Jane’s or any one would know what india is getting brochure wise yes every one will quote it


Right and I also doubt that you would know that either. The supplier shared specifications on the E variant of the interceptor to the media. Many media organizations in Russia and abroad reported on it. That is all we have to go by.

If one wants to go into a hypothetical discussion then let us just assume that the Indian, Chinese and Turkish variants can also intercept Satellites in GEO because no one has ever denied that, and they would never admit to it because "actual capability will be secret". I would much rather stick with what is publicly known and has been shared and that is that there are two missile variants 40N6, and its export variant 40N6E. Contrary to several claims over the years that the missile was in service or just about to enter service, it did obtain the necessary approvals and entered Russian service late last year. The developer has also confirmed that China is its first export customer with its S-400 purchase, parts of which have already been delivered.

We do not even confirmation on what the variant types and mix the IAF/MOD have negotiated. If one were to make an educated guess it would be that it is likely to be a mix of 48N6-E3 and 40N6-E missiles with the former likely to be cheaper and in higher production given what we know about its development, production relative to Russia's plans of fielding the latter missile over the next decade (but that will be an informed guess and not 100% fact).

We do however have some data that has been shared by the developer of the system (and reported by Russian and Western defense outlets and media publications) on the 40N6E variant of the missile. That is all we have to go by.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1238&start=1840#p2339149

Will
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Will » 01 Apr 2019 22:09

John wrote:^ I don't think the overall order for other missiles we will be that many i believe the order is heavily skewed toward long range missiles of which russia has confirmed 650 where as with Chinese order they have confirmed 300 and for Turkey i believe it is around 100. IMO that's right thing to do since we already have MRSAM which provides similar coverage as

China
(300) 48N6/SA-10 SAM 2015 2018 (250) Part of $3 b deal for 8 S-400 SAM systems
Turkey
Turkey (125) 48N6/SA-10 SAM 2017 For S-400 SAM systems



The sale to turkey is worrying. They could supply the Pakis with a unit or two during a conflict.

brar_w
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 01 Apr 2019 22:18

Will wrote:
John wrote:^ I don't think the overall order for other missiles we will be that many i believe the order is heavily skewed toward long range missiles of which russia has confirmed 650 where as with Chinese order they have confirmed 300 and for Turkey i believe it is around 100. IMO that's right thing to do since we already have MRSAM which provides similar coverage as

China
(300) 48N6/SA-10 SAM 2015 2018 (250) Part of $3 b deal for 8 S-400 SAM systems
Turkey
Turkey (125) 48N6/SA-10 SAM 2017 For S-400 SAM systems



The sale to turkey is worrying. They could supply the Pakis with a unit or two during a conflict.


You can't just pick up and introduce a completely unrelated air-defense system and place it with a new operator on the fly. It takes Millions of $ and years of work to make the system interoperable with a particular nation's systems and then to train an air defense unit on how to employ it. I don't think your fear of Turkey doing it is justified. China is the first S-400 operator and they can do this as well if it were possible, easy or cheap to do.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2019 22:20

turkey would have to send their own operators. being a large system its tough to hide from satellites. russia would know for sure.

I would be more worried about saudis and turks transferring jdams, paveways and amraams from their stocks. much harder to track and needs no integration with F-16s atleast.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 01 Apr 2019 22:22

Singha wrote:turkey would have to send their own operators. being a large system its tough to hide from satellites. russia would know for sure.

I would be more worried about saudis and turks transferring jdams, paveways and amraams from their stocks. much harder to track and needs no integration with F-16s atleast.


That (Turkish operators participation during conflict) would tantamount to Turkey declaring war on India.

For what? Pakistan? :rotfl:

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2019 22:26

imo turkish antics are what pakistan wishes to emulate
- far richer economically
- easy access to nato weapons and strong local weapons industry
- can keep its terrorist tanzeems in north syria after fighting off US and Russian oppn - on behalf of kurds and assadists
so erodgan is having his cake and eating it. in between he also crushed a coup and arrested lot of his AF generals
- even russia could do nothing after the su24 incident - if khyber pass is strategic position, the dardenelles is even more so.
- monopoly rule since around 2003

turkey, unlike GCC can afford to rile up india because our ties are not much in any sphere. a couple of flights a day and thats it. there are hardly any indian workers, companies or students in turkey and vice versa. I see nothing from turkey in indian markets.

so no wonder PAF considers TAF their iron brother.

today HT had a article that Turkiye is MLUing all 3 of their agosta90b subs, and 1 older agosta is all they have in active service till 2020.

so ties are deep and getting deeper.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby brar_w » 01 Apr 2019 22:35

Singha wrote:
so ties are deep and getting deeper.


Strong defense forces and industry ties are one thing, willing to fight an emerging Superpower to protect those ties is a whole another level. I think that sort of behavior is much more possible from China than from Turkey.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby negi » 02 Apr 2019 01:13

Turkey wants to justify it's tag of sick man of europe ; with economy in doldrums doing business with another grade#1 bikhari on the east will simply get them closer to bankruptcy faster .

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Bart S » 02 Apr 2019 02:52

^ Also, Erdogan's grip on power seems to finally be slipping, and no doubt Unkil will leave no stone upturned to make sure they see the back of him.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/31/worl ... dogan.html

Rony
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Rony » 02 Apr 2019 03:07

During the recent air standoff, i was just checking out various forums and saw Turkis trying to be more Paki than the Paki when it comes to India. The more interesting thing i observed from those comments is that more than Islamist Turks, secular nationalist Turks are more Pro-Paki. The more secularist Turk one is, more Pro-Paki he is. One would have assumed that secularist turks would have empathy with secular India. But no. These secularists turks are vehemently against Erdogan and his Islamist's but Pro- Islamist Paki to the core when it comes to the Indian subcontinent. I have seen many secularist nationalist Turks openly advocating for turkey to send aircraft or naval vessels in aid of Paki. These secularist nationalist turks were cursing Erdogan for "failing" their "blood brother" and not doing anything. Their worldview is like "India was ruled by Turkics before whether it is Delhi Sultanate or Mughal Empire (They always refer it as 'Timurid empire'). Pakistan is the inheritor of that Turkic legacy and hence blood brother of Turkey". And many of these Turks think that Pakistan and Turkey are cooperating in nuke field secretly. JMT

Austin
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Apr 2019 09:11

The entire OPEC lead by Paki that includes even Turks are pro-Paki , Just that some are overt and others are covert about it. The Sunni Brothers of Band

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Apr 2019 09:26

Karan Check this as we operate quite a few of these meter band radar there is an upgrade option to it

https://kbradar.by/en/products/radiolok ... heniya/99/

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Katare » 03 Apr 2019 06:28

Rony wrote:During the recent air standoff, i was just checking out various forums and saw Turkis trying to be more Paki than the Paki when it comes to India. The more interesting thing i observed from those comments is that more than Islamist Turks, secular nationalist Turks are more Pro-Paki. The more secularist Turk one is, more Pro-Paki he is. One would have assumed that secularist turks would have empathy with secular India. But no. These secularists turks are vehemently against Erdogan and his Islamist's but Pro- Islamist Paki to the core when it comes to the Indian subcontinent. I have seen many secularist nationalist Turks openly advocating for turkey to send aircraft or naval vessels in aid of Paki. These secularist nationalist turks were cursing Erdogan for "failing" their "blood brother" and not doing anything. Their worldview is like "India was ruled by Turkics before whether it is Delhi Sultanate or Mughal Empire (They always refer it as 'Timurid empire'). Pakistan is the inheritor of that Turkic legacy and hence blood brother of Turkey". And many of these Turks think that Pakistan and Turkey are cooperating in nuke field secretly. JMT


Probably pakis pretending to be turks.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby kittoo » 03 Apr 2019 08:58

Katare wrote:
Rony wrote:During the recent air standoff, i was just checking out various forums and saw Turkis trying to be more Paki than the Paki when it comes to India. The more interesting thing i observed from those comments is that more than Islamist Turks, secular nationalist Turks are more Pro-Paki. The more secularist Turk one is, more Pro-Paki he is. One would have assumed that secularist turks would have empathy with secular India. But no. These secularists turks are vehemently against Erdogan and his Islamist's but Pro- Islamist Paki to the core when it comes to the Indian subcontinent. I have seen many secularist nationalist Turks openly advocating for turkey to send aircraft or naval vessels in aid of Paki. These secularist nationalist turks were cursing Erdogan for "failing" their "blood brother" and not doing anything. Their worldview is like "India was ruled by Turkics before whether it is Delhi Sultanate or Mughal Empire (They always refer it as 'Timurid empire'). Pakistan is the inheritor of that Turkic legacy and hence blood brother of Turkey". And many of these Turks think that Pakistan and Turkey are cooperating in nuke field secretly. JMT


Probably pakis pretending to be turks.


Not necessarily. Turks do have a lot of love for Pakistan. Not only is it evident online (even on Quora, where its slightly harder to fake), but also if you go to Turkey. Whrn we were there, we were asked quite a few times if we were Pakistanis. And the reaction was always disappointment when we told we were from India. We were asked a couple of times if we were from India too, but it was clear tuat Turks love Pakis.

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Apr 2019 09:11

Rony wrote:During the recent air standoff, i was just checking out various forums and saw Turkis trying to be more Paki than the Paki when it comes to India. The more interesting thing i observed from those comments is that more than Islamist Turks, secular nationalist Turks are more Pro-Paki. The more secularist Turk one is, more Pro-Paki he is. One would have assumed that secularist turks would have empathy with secular India. But no. These secularists turks are vehemently against Erdogan and his Islamist's but Pro- Islamist Paki to the core when it comes to the Indian subcontinent. I have seen many secularist nationalist Turks openly advocating for turkey to send aircraft or naval vessels in aid of Paki. These secularist nationalist turks were cursing Erdogan for "failing" their "blood brother" and not doing anything. Their worldview is like "India was ruled by Turkics before whether it is Delhi Sultanate or Mughal Empire (They always refer it as 'Timurid empire'). Pakistan is the inheritor of that Turkic legacy and hence blood brother of Turkey". And many of these Turks think that Pakistan and Turkey are cooperating in nuke field secretly. JMT


To make a very long story short, Islam (for better or worse) states that a Muslim must help another Muslim when the option is between a Muslim and a non-Muslim (assuming the situation is binary). IF the Muslims helps the non-Muslim, instead of a Muslim, he (the helper) goes to hell.

I am fairly confident that "India" knows such nuances.

habal
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby habal » 03 Apr 2019 09:35

plenty of pakistanis are wannabe turks, they even go by turkish names online, this pakistan cyber army 'regiment' of 300 blowhards has it's main job of going into chat rooms, youtube comments section and popular boards to spew filth against India or Afghanistan or Shia or anyone else that is the flavor of the season.

Kindly do not be misled by online chatter and broadbrush an entire country. Here is an actual Indian vlog in turkey.

https://youtu.be/-mwvE3LzDcM
https://youtu.be/5Faoa7pKleQ
https://youtu.be/sG4rK7pftJw
https://youtu.be/7ySv7A4xyRs

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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby MeshaVishwas » 23 Apr 2019 00:18

India completes phase one of ballistic missile defence programme, nod for missiles awaited-Snehesh Philip/CouptaJi
https://theprint.in/defence/india-completes-phase-one-of-ballistic-missile-defence-programme-nod-for-missiles-awaited/224959/
IIRC, Khan relies on IR sats for detecting the launch before SPY/Ground based Radar starts the tracking.
Do we also plan on sending up a few IR signature tracking sats for a redundant mechanism?

Karan M
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Apr 2019 21:39

https://theprint.in/defence/india-compl ... ed/224959/
Friday, 26 April, 2019

Home Defence India completes phase one of ballistic missile defence programme, nod for missiles...

Defence

India completes phase one of ballistic missile defence programme, nod for missiles awaited
Phase one of the programme will see Delhi and Mumbai being guarded against incoming ballistic missiles.
Snehesh Alex Philip Updated: 23 April, 2019 6:04 pm IST
Ballistic Missile Defence


New Delhi: In a boost to India’s deterrence capabilities, the phase one of the ambitious Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) programme has been completed and a formal nod for the deployment of active missiles is expected soon, top sources told ThePrint.

Phase one of the programme will cover Delhi and Mumbai, and guard them against incoming ballistic missiles.

“The phase one of the Ballistic Missile Defence programme has been completed. We have deployed two indigenous long-range radars as part of the programme. As and when we get an all-clear from the government, the specific missiles will be deployed,” a top source in the defence establishment told ThePrint.

Sources also said adequate arrangements have been made to ensure that missiles were produced in the required manner.

Asked by when the permission for the deployment of missiles is expected, another top source said, “soon” without getting into any time line.

‘Radars have higher range and capability’

Sources said the two radars that have been deployed are completely indigenous.

It was in the mid-2000s that India got Swordfish from Israel. The Swordfish is an active electronically scanned array (AESA) long-range tracking radar, specifically built to counter ballistic missile threat.

This radar is a derivative of the Israeli Green Pine long-range radar, which is the critical component of its arrow missile defence system. However, Swordfish uses a number of indigenous systems.

“After Swordfish, we have managed to make two indigenous radars with higher range and capability,” a defence source said.

nash
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby nash » 27 Apr 2019 00:03

“The phase one of the Ballistic Missile Defence programme has been completed. We have deployed two indigenous long-range radars as part of the programme. As and when we get an all-clear from the government, the specific missiles will be deployed,” a top source in the defence establishment told ThePrint.


This is almost 2 year back:

https://www.dnaindia.com/jaipur/report-2-state-villages-chosen-by-drdo-for-setting-up-radar-to-track-enemy-2520834

In August 2017, the government cleared the allocation of 850 hectares of land in Khoa, Alwar district and 350 hectares in Roopnagar, Pali district in Rajasthan for setting up radars to track missiles to the DRDO.


This should be LRTR and MFCR radars.I believe basic C4I is in place now after election we can see first order of AAD, and PDV later.

kit
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby kit » 27 Apr 2019 02:50

Karan M wrote:https://theprint.in/defence/india-completes-phase-one-of-ballistic-missile-defence-programme-nod-for-missiles-awaited/224959/
Friday, 26 April, 2019

Home Defence India completes phase one of ballistic missile defence programme, nod for missiles...

Defence

India completes phase one of ballistic missile defence programme, nod for missiles awaited
Phase one of the programme will see Delhi and Mumbai being guarded against incoming ballistic missiles.
Snehesh Alex Philip Updated: 23 April, 2019 6:04 pm IST
Ballistic Missile Defence


New Delhi: In a boost to India’s deterrence capabilities, the phase one of the ambitious Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) programme has been completed and a formal nod for the deployment of active missiles is expected soon, top sources told ThePrint.

Phase one of the programme will cover Delhi and Mumbai, and guard them against incoming ballistic missiles.



“After Swordfish, we have managed to make two indigenous radars with higher range and capability,” a defence source said.



any specs for these radars in the open media ??

vasu raya
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Re: ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 28 Apr 2019 19:31

Jamia team develops ultrasensitive quantum thermometer

The thermometer can measure micro Kelvin changes in temperature and has quick response time

Researchers at Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi, have developed an ultrasensitive quantum thermometer using graphene quantum dots. The thermometer can precisely measure a wide range of temperature: 27 degree C to –196 degree C. The thermometer has high sensitivity when measuring different temperatures and can measure very minute (micro Kelvin) changes in temperature.

The thermometer developed by a team led by Saikh S. Islam, Director of the Centre for Nanoscience and Nanotechnology also showed extremely quick response time of just about 300 milliseconds to register a change in temperature from 27 degree C to –196 degree C. And the time taken to return to its initial temperature value was as little as about 800 milliseconds. The results of the study were published in the journal Nanoscale Advances.

“The thermometer showed excellent repeatability with negligible variation in sensing response when tested for over 50 cycles during a one-year period. The sensor was stable and responded ultra-fast when we tested it repeatedly,” says Prof. Islam.


Can this be used in SBIRS kind of detectors?


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