MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Apr 2019 10:31

If FP article is some kind of semi-official position on the Mig-21 vs F-16 duel then it is along expected lines.

Dont expect US to acknowledge a Kill by IAF Mig-21 against one of their start 4th gen fighter ...... Had no AMRAAM parts been found neither US nor Pakistan would acknowledge even AMRAAM was fired at IAF ......No Body No Murder concept holds true.

We need to go by our own sources , Electronic Evidence , Pilots debriefing, MOD knows about the Pilot who was downed and the more than 1 chute seen to come to conclusion about the definitive kill IAF scored.

Dont expect US or other country to piggy back our claims we like it or not

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 10:39

True but then how can we work with the US in quad and other areas? Now that the US has called IAF a bunch of liars, well I guess as a nation we will just have to suckit maybe not on BRF but seeing the Media articles- people outside BRF, IAF circles will be thinking IAF, Forces and GOI as a bunch of Liars after making the F-16 claim.

Hmmm, as a nation this is a question to ponder are we ok working with a country calling us liars?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Apr 2019 10:51

Aditya_V wrote:True but then how can we work with the US in quad and other areas? Now that the US has called IAF a bunch of liars, well I guess as a nation we will just have to suckit maybe not on BRF but seeing the Media articles- people outside BRF, IAF circles will be thinking IAF, Forces and GOI as a bunch of Liars after making the F-16 claim.

Hmmm, as a nation this is a question to ponder are we ok working with a country calling us liars?

There is nothing extra ordinary we do within quad that we dont do with any other nations bilaterally if you leave the unverified media hype aside.
As IN Chief said they are not going to come to save our arse when the time comes we will have to do it by ourself

Just maintain a working relation with US and move on , US is not there to protect India interest but their own .....F-16 is not the only one ...remember David Hadley and many others even in recent times ..... The Day India stands for its strategic interest that could be against US Interest , They will screw us royally ...Turkey is a live example of this today.

I will still wait for US official position but if FP is some kind of semi-official mouth piece of US Estb then it is along expected lines.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 10:56

I agree we cannot behave like Turkey, but US going out of the way to call IAF liars and placate Pakis means it is really sad. It was ok till they had kept silent, but now the FP article is in the AIR, the US state Department must make a stand.

In many people eyes, if iAF lied on F-16 IAF lied on Balakot. By publishing the FP article US has taken a stand, its up to GOI now make the US State Dept to take an official stand.

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 Apr 2019 11:03

khan wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/di ... qfFVZexicU-Lara Seligman
I think we should take this seriously.

800% Agree.

It is more and more getting clear that the Balakot strike missed the target and that our Air Force does not have the burka of the mitigating factor like the downing of a F16 of the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan. As a Resident Tax Paying Indian National let me say bollocks to jingo ostrich style head in the sand denial and say time for the IAF to man up and undertake a study to ensure that there is no future repetition of letting our country down as was the case in this all-round fiasco so as to ensure that the next time a strike is carried out, it will be satisfactorily concluded. It is not the end of the world or an existential threat to my country India, my Airforce the IAF or the my PM Modi led NDA Government to own up to a fiasco at Balakot and its aftermath. And no, what I have said is not a plug for the Nehru Gandhi family Dynasty led Congress Party.

Plagiarising Alfred Lord Tennyson line of “Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all” to read “Tis better to have attacked and lost than never to have attacked at all”.
-------------

User warned for making comments in poor taste and with incredible lack of self awareness about warfighters, to "man up" etc and flaming fellow posters.

Km

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 05 Apr 2019 11:12

Why should US lie? Any F16 flown by anybody can be shot down. Even Mirage flown by Israeli Ai Force have been shot down by Mig ... so has F117A by Soviet origin SAM.

The onus is on IAF to come up with concrete evidence, radar signatures etc to show involvement of F16s and subsequent shooting down of one. Posturing and creating a fog/myth does not help in the long run.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Apr 2019 11:13

ooo really...missed the target !! why the hell did PA had to keep Balakot cordoned it for 1 month if IAF missed.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Apr 2019 11:15

esommuk ... yes onus is on IAF to come up with downing of F 16. But thats only a sideshow to the real show which was IAF ingress into Pakistan and not POK... the real story is not about F 16...

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 05 Apr 2019 11:16

Yikes!
Never thought I will see so much Dhotii Shiver so quickly!
Edit: And now the Terrorists are on it.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1943995/1- ... -16/?amp=1

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 11:17

Thats what I am saying, IAF would not have made the claim of F-16 going down that too officially without concrete proof and are now being called "Liars" by the US Media.

If the GOI has any self respect they should put their energies in getting SD and Pentagon to own up to the truth now that FP has put the balloon up.

This is about IAF credibility with the Mango man.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 11:17

Prasad wrote:
Karan M wrote:Its definitely US SD with support from Lock Mart. If Boeing has any brains, they should activate their sources to get the truth out unless they are ok with losing 20 Billion dollars.
Why do you think Boeing will go against SD when it needs SD support for not just SEF but naval fighter tender also?

I think Boeing can win on the strength of its offerings, SD is more of a problem for them than help. Prevented them from helping with the LCA as well.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 11:20

This incident BTW is why I was so insistent that GOI should come out with its story, via IAFs evidence provided on the F16 shootdown asap. Instead GOI listened to some 2 clever by half babus who preached de-escalation etc, we have given evidence to US yadda yadda and is now facing this new pin prick. Time to provide the evidence and not let IAF hang out to dry. If Madame Sitharaman wants to run the MOD, she has to stand by her ppl.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 05 Apr 2019 11:20

arun wrote:It is more and more getting clear that the Balakot strike missed the target ...

In the midst of all your hai tauba, could you state your reasons for why are convinced so?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 11:28

Karan M wrote:This incident BTW is why I was so insistent that GOI should come out with its story, via IAFs evidence provided on the F16 shootdown asap. Instead GOI listened to some 2 clever by half babu(n)s who preached de-escalation etc, we have given evidence to US yadda yadda and is now facing this new pin prick. Time to provide the evidence and not let IAF hang out to dry. If Madame Sitharaman wants to run the MOD, she has to stand by her ppl.

Exactly both GOI and forces are now being called liars, they need to come out now and get the truth out and and official communication from the Sd/Pentagon, this will be collasal blunder to let this pass.

Our forces credibility takes a huge dent, the GOI cant sit idle, the FP article is being provocative. They cant get away with calling IAF liars.

If things stay as it is large % of Indian public will start doubting our forces.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 05 Apr 2019 11:30

Kashi wrote:
arun wrote:It is more and more getting clear that the Balakot strike missed the target ...
In the midst of all your hai tauba, could you state your reasons for why are convinced so?

Aussie Anal-e-sys stated very clearly with Europe sat pics(Ultra 8K resolution) that IAF forgot to account for the Hill Top, which according to "sources" are on top of a hill!
Now how did the IAF miss that you ask?
Clearly the IAF was fighting in Kargil in 99, which is at about sea level, thus they failed to account for a thing called Elevation.
#MissedBy33Meters

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2019 11:32

This is a well timed pin prick to discredit the govt with elections a week away

Raga didi naidu will be active soon one expects

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 11:37

Its Ok if a political party taking a hit but here the article is calling GOI and IAF liars, I hope our Diplomats and officials are working on getting an statement from SD or Pentagon. It would be foolish to let this just pass.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 05 Apr 2019 11:39

esommuk wrote:The onus is on IAF to come up with concrete evidence, radar signatures etc to show involvement of F16s and subsequent shooting down of one. Posturing and creating a fog/myth does not help in the long run.

Aha, but this is what the issue is about - forcing our hand to reveal what intel we have about the F-16 going down. Radar signatures would do nicely, no? Perhaps some visuals of what our Netra/AWACS operators were seeing would also help the cause? Maybe some sat tracking pics would add icing on the cake?

Let's be clear on one thing: there is NO onus on the IAF or GoI to say anything. If they want to, they might say something at somepoint, but not in response to some random nonsense. Nirmala Sitharaman has been quite clear on that point on multiple occasions.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 11:43

IAF need not give evidence but needs to get a Sd or Pentagon official comment that the article is inaccurate now that the article has come come out claiming US milatry personal have done the check.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Apr 2019 11:46

Aditya_V wrote:IAF need not give evidence but needs to get a Sd or Pentagon official comment that the article is inaccurate now that the article has come come out claiming US milatry personal have done the check.

It is not IAF responsibility to commment on every thing that comes on media if the source is unnamed.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Apr 2019 11:48

khan wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/di ... qfFVZexicU-Lara Seligman
I think we should take this seriously.

+1. Agreed. It’s funny we’re saying that US would never admit to a F-16 loss because they have a conflict of interest, but at the same time we want their SD to issue a statement to back us up.

Decide kar lo if they have a conflict of interest or not!!

ryogi · Post by **ryogi** » 05 Apr 2019 11:50

Aditya_V wrote:
Exactly both GOI and forces are now being called liars, they need to come out now and get the truth out and and official communication from the Sd/Pentagon, this will be collasal blunder to let this pass.

Our forces credibility takes a huge dent, the GOI cant sit idle, the FP article is being provocative. They cant get away with calling IAF liars.

If things stay as it is large % of Indian public will start doubting our forces.

I'm a noob here, but surprised to see old-timers here break into fits of dhoti-shivering and self-flagellation at the first sign of psy-ops. Wonder what would happen in case of a real war.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 11:50

Saar if US had kept quiet ok, but letting thier media play up a story and calling US liars is not OK.

Its not self flagellation but a question of taking things lying down

habal · Post by **habal** » 05 Apr 2019 11:52

& people were talking of closing this thread.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 05 Apr 2019 11:55

Nikhil T wrote:
khan wrote: I think we should take this seriously.
+1. Agreed. It’s funny we’re saying that US would never admit to a F-16 loss because they have a conflict of interest, but at the same time we want their SD to issue a statement to back us up. Decide kar lo if they have a conflict of interest or not!!

Why on Earth do we need the US to back us up on this?!
Will we ask the US to also vet the Election Commission of India's counting after May23?
Khan is not even a part of this.
It is our word against Terroristan's.

mridulmm · Post by **mridulmm** » 05 Apr 2019 11:57

Nikhil T wrote:
khan wrote: I think we should take this seriously.
+1. Agreed. It’s funny we’re saying that US would never admit to a F-16 loss because they have a conflict of interest, but at the same time we want their SD to issue a statement to back us up. Decide kar lo if they have a conflict of interest or not!!

Anonymous sources don't worry about credibility, official sources do. Especially if they are not certain about the kind of proof Indian gvt or IAF can disclose in future. It's not about them backing us up, or we needing any certificate from them, it's about forcing them to play their hand and see if they are bluffing or not.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 11:58

If Khan had kept quiet all Ok, now that there is an article that khan is backing up PAK, it is better to make Khan officially clarify rather than leave it at this.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 05 Apr 2019 11:59

Okay I do think that our MEA ****** up big time by asking the US to examine a possible violation of end use by Terrorists.
Hopefully lessons learnt.

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 Apr 2019 12:01

Kashi wrote:
arun wrote:It is more and more getting clear that the Balakot strike missed the target ...
In the midst of all your hai tauba, could you state your reasons for why are convinced so?

With our Air Force and our Prime Minister Narendra Modi led NDA Government borrowing heavily from the playbook of our former PM from the Nehru Gandhi family Dynasty led Congress Party and doing a Dr Manmohan Singh style Maun Vrat on backing technical proof, reliance has most unfortunately been forced to be placed on sources from non belligerent third party countries by Resident Tax Paying Indian Nationals like me. That narrative in terms of commercially available post strike Balakot Satellite Imagery and now the FP article on F16 headcount, has not supported the narrative that I would have LOVED to have heard that Balakot and its aftermath sent hundreds of Mohammadden Terrorists to Janaat to consort with raisins and that the IAF gave the Airforce of the Mohammdden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic a mitigating black eye by downing an F16.

Having written, that I remind myself, even knowing that it is not going to amount to a small mound of beans leave alone a small hill of beans, it is better to focus jingo energy in ensuring that the IAF learns from her mistakes at Balakot and aftermath and politicians make available the necessary funding for reversing the situation of a rapidly block obsolescing IAF to ensure success of the next Balakot style strike rather than dissipating jingo energy by going into denial mode and seeking to negate the reports of failure of Balakot and aftermath that have emerged.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 05 Apr 2019 12:02

MeshaVishwas wrote:Okay I do think that our MEA ****** up big time by asking the US to examine a possible violation of end use by Terrorists.
Hopefully lessons learnt.

100% agreed. It shows us as a lesser nation. Who on earth ever believed that F-16 Blk 52 jets with AMRAAMs were to defeat the airforces of Taliban and Al-Qaeda? If the MEA or GoI believed that, the joke’s on them.

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 05 Apr 2019 12:06

Until there is no clarity from DGISPR about the second pilot who was admitted in CMH, we can be certain one of their aircraft was downed.
If not they should have come up with why they issues such a statement.

Could it be part of deception strategy ?, which will possibly haunt them ?
Any chance it was JF-17 ??

this is getting as clear as mud

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 05 Apr 2019 12:06

If we continue to buy Khan defense equipment after this.... We are the biggest fools on the planet.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Apr 2019 12:13

Whatever, the prick is the stab in the back, GOI letting Sd and Pentagon to keep quiet is not the answer, they must forceful enough to get an official clarification

gaurav.p · Post by **gaurav.p** » 05 Apr 2019 12:13

don't know why everyone is shivering by just an article by unnamed sources. It is just a start, now just like many source based articles were done in India, same will be done in US until the official statement comes out. An article from US sources is more credible than official IAF/Govt?

IIRC The state dept in US also had been fanning the baki POV initially that they had the right to use the 16 as part of self defense. So I don't find it amusing to find this piece. Look baki H&D is too heavy to bear, they are driven by hate and revenge against India. If they had the aim to waste few BVR missiles in an outrageous attempt to down a sukhoi, they got 16 in return. Saving their H&D is part of deal for taliban talks. A month has already passed, repainting an old 16 from some islamic nation love isn't a tough ask.

Baki H&D is a good thing. let them cover up their battle casualties as non-state fodder. Just keep on increasing their casualties and ignore if it ever happened. They already have economy in dire situation. A tense border and the resulting economic coercion is good enough damage.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 12:16

Jeebus, stop whining. It's dismaying to see senior members stoop to claiming that IAF didnt do Balakot strikes well based on rubbish media reports. Would you have IAF surrender tactical Intel or GOI give up classified humint sources which confirmed casualty counts? Wake up. Or stop bellyaching about it.

This case is different. IAF did OSINT analysis of the wreckage, compared it to the MiG21s it had, at least that can be declassified. Stuff about the F16 pilot etc can be leaked. Declassified intel about radar signals can be leaked with details about radar capabilities scrubbed. So many things can be done.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 12:17

Aditya_V wrote:Whatever, the prick is the stab in the back, GOI letting Sd and Pentagon to keep quiet is not the answer, they must forceful enough to get an official clarification

This I agree. The SDs dislike for India is well known as is the presence of Cold War cliques. Have DT sort them out.

Will · Post by **Will** » 05 Apr 2019 12:23

Aditya_V wrote:
Karan M wrote:This incident BTW is why I was so insistent that GOI should come out with its story, via IAFs evidence provided on the F16 shootdown asap. Instead GOI listened to some 2 clever by half babu(n)s who preached de-escalation etc, we have given evidence to US yadda yadda and is now facing this new pin prick. Time to provide the evidence and not let IAF hang out to dry. If Madame Sitharaman wants to run the MOD, she has to stand by her ppl.
Exactly both GOI and forces are now being called liars, they need to come out now and get the truth out and and official communication from the Sd/Pentagon, this will be collasal blunder to let this pass.

Our forces credibility takes a huge dent, the GOI cant sit idle, the FP article is being provocative. They cant get away with calling IAF liars.

If things stay as it is large % of Indian public will start doubting our forces.

It’s the usual crap of quoting “sources”. Agree with the above that the GOI needs to come out and back the IAF by either putting out evidence or putting pressure on the US for an “official” statement . India has leverage through MMRCA 2.0. If not kick both the US planes out of the competition.

As much as one might not want to acknowledge it, India is way behind in the information war.

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Apr 2019 12:25

You always have to talk and explain more when you do less than what was required.

esommuk · Post by **esommuk** » 05 Apr 2019 12:28

Balakote was not a clandestine operation. It was owned up by GOI and an announcement made. So was the aerial skirmish over LOC. Then why this smokescreen of secrecy when it comes to owning up and proving the kill and/or F16 involvement?

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Apr 2019 12:29

As expected US will help sort out F16, if this report is true. Why are people surprised

So much for F21..F18s..