Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

chetonzz · Post by **chetonzz** » 05 Apr 2019 11:42

During net surfing i came across an interesting patch on an IAF officer...A "F-16 Fighting Falcon" style "Mig 21 Fighting fishbed"

does these patches are produced officially per mission/ squadron or as per individual's choice?

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Apr 2019 12:47

It's most probably a case of lack of creativity ; someone must have googled for patch designs and generally Massan stuff comes first must have simply lifted the concept from there.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 05 Apr 2019 12:54

Nah, I just think it's the VayuSena trolling the Ayf Sola.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Apr 2019 14:08

Rakesh wrote:The youngest MiG-21bis is 32 years old. The bis production ended at HAL in 1987. Those MiG-21 squadrons that remained as bis were probably not worth upgrading. But the question remains, why are they still flying then?

if they have airframe life left in them, they are fine to patrol the bangladesh area...?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2019 14:44

the engines of Mig21 and Mig27 is the problem area. rest of the airframe would be reasonably ok.
most of the crashes that occur in routine flying of these two types are engine problems.
and unfortunately they are 1 engined.
there have been plenty of engine issues on su30 as well but fortunately 2 engines.
maybe thats why russia does not operate any single engine fighter anymore...even frogfoot is 2 engine.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Apr 2019 14:49

Rakesh wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Short of fighter planes, IAF eyes 21 MiG-29 jets and air-defence aircraft
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news ... O_amp.html
GE Season in India. No acquisition of anything will happen till GE is over.

Well technically, nothing (AFAIK) prevents the Govt from continuing the work of the Govt which is to make such decisions, because till the next Govt comes in, current guys are in charge. Now, these kind of things will require major inspection, price negotiation etc so won't get done early. But orders for ammo, spares etc would be ongoing.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 05 Apr 2019 15:07

Rakesh wrote:The youngest MiG-21bis is 32 years old. The bis production ended at HAL in 1987. Those MiG-21 squadrons that remained as bis were probably not worth upgrading. But the question remains, why are they still flying then?

Rakesh, MiG21 had 2400 hrs of Airframe life. It was planned to be increased by 1600hrs more but the Air frame could clear Fatigue test till only 3400hrs. But based on actual utilization if the number of hours are still not reached the limit, they might have extended the life in terms of number of years, which is OK.

For Su30 MKI, it had first overhaul scheduled at 1500hrs or 10yrs whichever was early, but due to underutilization of the Airframes, it was extended to 1500hrs or 14yrs. This should give us a rough matrix to compare with for a frontline IAF fighter. By this standard we can consider 1000hrs = 10yrs roughly. I don't think IAF will in any case fly MiG21 beyond their certified life. They may rather choose to reduce utilization to prolong life in dire situation.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Apr 2019 22:14

Aditya_V wrote:There are aldready 272 (-8 attrition) Su-30 MKI + 18 more MKIs will be delivered by next year. Why 272 Aircraft will make only 12 squadrons? Each one of these Birds bring a lot of capability. I don't see more than 18 to a squadron.

Wiki still has MiG-21Bis for Squadron 21 and MiG-27ML for Squadron 22, have these Squadrons been number plated like many other squadrons?

No.21 "Ankush" squadron moved to Bison long ago. Wiki is not updated. And there are only 2 MiG-27UPG squadrons left now.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Apr 2019 22:15

negi wrote:It's most probably a case of lack of creativity ; someone must have googled for patch designs and generally Massan stuff comes first must have simply lifted the concept from there.

Not at all! The officer must have participated in an exercise with the USAF against USAF pilots flying F-16s. And they came up with that patch almost tongue in cheek.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Apr 2019 22:21

Have Proof Pakistani F-16 Shot Down, Says Air Force; Refutes US Journal Report

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/pak-f-1 ... ome-livetv

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Apr 2019 22:25

Kartik wrote:
negi wrote:It's most probably a case of lack of creativity ; someone must have googled for patch designs and generally Massan stuff comes first must have simply lifted the concept from there.
Not at all! The officer must have participated in an exercise with the USAF against USAF pilots flying F-16s. And they came up with that patch almost tongue in cheek.

Having known how things work I would go with my perception ; besides there is nothing tongue in cheek there .

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Apr 2019 22:30

Singha wrote:the engines of Mig21 and Mig27 is the problem area. rest of the airframe would be reasonably ok.
most of the crashes that occur in routine flying of these two types are engine problems.
and unfortunately they are 1 engined.
there have been plenty of engine issues on su30 as well but fortunately 2 engines.
maybe thats why russia does not operate any single engine fighter anymore...even frogfoot is 2 engine.

The airframes should be OK if not operated for prolonged periods in places like jamnagar or anywhere else near/on the coast.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Apr 2019 23:08

JayS wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The youngest MiG-21bis is 32 years old. The bis production ended at HAL in 1987. Those MiG-21 squadrons that remained as bis were probably not worth upgrading. But the question remains, why are they still flying then?
Rakesh, MiG21 had 2400 hrs of Airframe life. It was planned to be increased by 1600hrs more but the Air frame could clear Fatigue test till only 3200 or 3600hrs. (I'll put accurate numbers later, don't have the source handy). I think the life was supposed to be over by 2019. But based on actual utilization if the number of hours are still not reached the limit, they might have extended the life in terms of number of years, which is OK.

For Su30 MKI, it had first overhaul scheduled at 1500hrs or 10yrs whichever was early, but due to underutilization of the Airframes, it was extended to 1500hrs or 14yrs. This should give us a rough matrix to compare with for a frontline IAF fighter. By this standard we can consider 1000hrs = 10yrs roughly. I don't think IAF will in any case fly MiG21 beyond their certified life. They may rather choose to reduce utilization to prolong life in dire situation.

NAL did the fatigue analysis on a MiG-21bis airframe to arrive at a number by which the life could be extended.

10 year breather - MiG-21 can fly 1000 hours extra

BANGALORE: IAF can heave a sigh of relief.- the life of the MiG-21 Bis has been enhanced. ..

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Apr 2019 23:11

negi wrote:
Kartik wrote:
Not at all! The officer must have participated in an exercise with the USAF against USAF pilots flying F-16s. And they came up with that patch almost tongue in cheek.
Having known how things work I would go with my perception ; besides there is nothing tongue in cheek there .

Of course there is. F-16 Aggressor pilots wear this type of MiG-29 Fulcrum patch

Are they too plain lazy as you're implying those IAF guys are?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Apr 2019 23:14

Another MiG-29 Fulcrum patch worn by F-16 Aggressor pilots. Plain lazy as well I suppose.

link

Hello Jon !

Yes it is exactly what you said - the patch of the USAFE 527th squadron (they had an agressor role). Used when they were flying from RAF Bentwaters in the late 80s (1988-1991 I think, Meathook will probably know loads of toads more than me on this one). Notably, the only USAFE F-16 squadron ever to fly from UK soil.

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Apr 2019 00:10

all this onky supports what I said ; that is we are merely copying what someone came up with it’s not about the badge , it’s about the idea that doing this is cool or whatever . Having lived in the USA I know a bit about their culture , ours is different and I know when I see someone trying hard to fit in .

It is not too hard to analyse human behaviour while you were able to quickly google up and show how many f-16 aggressor pilots wear that badge which reads Mig-29 fulcrum , you should notice how despite being aggressor and playing a role of enemy they still stick to the same theme as far as the badge is concerned , whoever will look at this round patch with falcon and flag inside will always say the original belonged to the f-16 fighting falcon , have you seen Americans wearing badges that are lifted from Russian counterparts with name of AC replaced with theirs and justify it ? Indians are highly impressionable they like to please the gora and fit in be it those in uniform or outside .

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Apr 2019 00:57

So some MiG-21 pilot played the role of a F-16 "aggressor" in an exercise and hence they came up with some patch that showed the MiG-21 Fishbed instead of F-16 Fighting Falcon. Big deal. Patches are personal, designed by people involved in squadrons, depending on a host of factors.

And yes, there are USAF aggressor patches that also show clear influences of non NATO patches. There is nothing to do with Indians being highly impressionable. Pilots of all colors think patches are cool ( as do I) and wear or design a variety of them depending on what they see others wearing.

another USAF aggressor patch that clearly blends the Russian and USAF elements

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Apr 2019 03:37

Negi, come on, which of these patches are copied. Just look at the creativity and intricate detailing of some of these patches.

Fact is since our local industries have upgraded and supply a lot of similar stuff to the worldwide market, you will see more and more cool "desi" designs.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Apr 2019 03:39

Negi, I sent you email. Thanks.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Apr 2019 06:45

https://twitter.com/DDRNewDelhi/status/ ... 9662994432 ---> Air Marshal Diptendu Chowdhury, takes over as Senior Air Staff Officer, Western Air Command, Delhi. A Fighter Combat Leader, and known as a MiG Master, on all types of MiG-21 and flown the MiG-27, MiG-29 and Su-30.

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 2704285697 ---> New Senior Air Staff Officer, Western Air Command, New Delhi: Air Marshal Diptendu Choudhury, AVSM, VM, VSM, took over as SASO Western Air Command, Indian Air Force. The Air Marshal is a Fighter Combat Leader (FCL), a Top Gun of TACDE, and has commanded TACDE in the past.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Apr 2019 14:00

twitter

Tata is Agusta's Indian partner..the then Defence Secretray Vijay Singh approved Agusta VVIP Copter deal is now in Tata Board..and the then Joint Sec (Air) SK Sharma became CAG..MoD officials & Politicians in the deal not even questioned till date...only brokers & IAF guys caught

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 08 Apr 2019 23:34

Dear Rakshaks,

As per wikipedia, following are the fighter aircrafts of IAF

Aircraft Numbers
Mig-21 ====> 112
Mig-29 =====> 66
Su-30MKI ===> 249
Tejas ======> 16
Mirage2K ===> 41
Jaguar =====> 91
Mig-27 =====> 43

Do that numbers look right?

By 2024-25 can we expect below numbers?

Rafale =====> 36
Mig-29 =====> 66
Su-30MKI ===> 300
Tejas ======> ~ 80-100
Mirage2K ===> 41
Jaguar =====> 91
Mig-27 =====> 43 (?)

Questions:
1) Can we buy 21 Mig-29s from Russia
2) Any possibility of buying second hand Mirage-2000's?

If we can get a few more of existing fighters, we retire probably retire Mig-27 as well by 2024-25!

--Vamsee

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 00:04

We were retiring MiG27s anyhow. Along with the MiG21s.
On order are 36x Rafale, 25x Su30, 20x Tejas Mk1. Follow on orders are 83x Tejas Mk1A, confirmed but order is to be placed.
That leads to 25 Su30s, 36 Rafale, 103 Tejas to replace around 160 odd retiring MiGs. So you are maintaining current strength levels. Which around 31 ops squadrons. To get back to 42 etc, you need 21 MiG29s, 18 Su30, 110 MMRCA. So that's 8 more squadrons, taking us to 39 squadrons but in between some old Jags may retire. During this period, IAF starts its Su30 upgrade, and MWF starts flying to get ready for the IOC/FOC thing. So when the next tranche of retirals happen, Jaguars, MiG29s, Mirages, the MWF is available while AMCA is flying/ tests.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Apr 2019 00:13

Second hand M2ks are probably unworkable due to the high costs involved, despite being a long standing demand of several BRFites (myself included

). There was interest in acquiring them from Qatar at one point but it went nowhere.

But that 21 Mig-29 deal needs to happen quickly.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2019 00:30

That deal struck down on grounds of cost, and now it will cost an arm and a leg. Reality of our procurement.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2019 02:00

Aero India: Rafael Places $30 Million Order to ARC
https://www.monch.com/mpg/news/ew-c4i-c ... order.html

At a ceremony on 20 February 2019 at the 2019 Aero India defense exhibition in Bengaluru, India, Rafael Advanced Defense Systems CEO, Major General (ret.) Yoav Har-Even, presented Chief Operations Officer of Astra Rafael COMSYS PVT LTD (ARC), Brigadier Ravi Hariharan with a $30 million purchase order for the manufacture, test-before-integration, and lifecycle support management for a complete set of the BNet Software Defined Radio (SDR) system for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

This order is the first contract for ARC, the joint venture between Rafael and India’s Astra Microwave Products Ltd.

In 2017, Rafael was awarded a contract to supply BNet SDRs to the IAF. ARC will manufacture and integrate these advanced radio systems onboard IAF aircraft, allowing for the digital exchange of tactical information. As a force multiplier, the systems will enable IAF pilots to engage the enemy beyond visual range, without being detected by their on-board sensors.

Acquired by both the Brazilian and Colombian Air Forces, in Brazilian service, the BNet carries the air force’s proprietary Link-BR2 airborne V/UHF tactical handle L-band (1-2 GHz) communications datalink (TDL) to support air operations. This radio was also acquired by the Israeli Air Force.

The radio can include transmit data rates of up to 2mbps and 10mbps transmit with reception speeds of 100mbps and 500 mwgabits per second.

Speaking at the ceremony, Mr Har-Even emphasised ARC's commitment to the operational readiness of the Indian Air Force (IAF) radio network: “We at Rafael are proud of our role - not only in ARC- but also of our participation in Make in India, and our strong relationship with the vibrant talent across India’s defense industry. As we mark this important milestone, we look forward to celebrating many more milestones with Astra Microwave Products as well as with our many other partners within India.”

In 2013, as part of the 'Make in India' initiative, Rafael paired with Astra Microwave Products LTD to form ARC, looking at opportunities for indigenous production and supply of strategic electronics in the form of system and subsystems in the high technology domain of Tactical Communication Systems, Electronic Warfare and SIGINT. Located in Hyderabad, India, ARC employs roughly 200 local technical experts, and is a 49:51 shareholding in favor of Astra Microwave.

Additionally, Rafael entered into a Joint Venture with Kalyani Strategic Systems, forming KRAS – Kalyani Rafael Advanced Systems, in 2017. KRAS is able undertake the integration and testing of equipment as per Mil Standards for weapon systems used for airborne applications. This works towards developing weapon systems required by the Indian Defence Forces, as well as for export. Keeping with its commitment to 'Make in India,' the partnership is a 49:51 division in favor of the Indian partner. KRAS is expected to employ roughly 250 technical experts by the year 2023.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Apr 2019 04:58

Would be great if we can pick up 30 m2k-9 (uae) and 12 m2k-5 from qatar. Quick 42 to the stable.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 10 Apr 2019 06:17

We also need to account for attrition, especially amongst the older aircraft. Assuming we get the 21 Mig-29s, we'll have ~178 Jags, Mig-29s, and M2Ks flying until 2025. Add to that ~50 MKIs that will be >25 years old by that time. Safe to assume we'll lose atleast 1.5 squadrons there.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 10 Apr 2019 07:00

UAE maybe more amenable with improved relationship. But they cost a bomb (but hey it works). If Rus is offering 21 Mig 29, and we are fine with it, perhaps we can get some 20-40 more (cheap and effective, perhaps little less versatile than m2k)
or pick some from Ukraine boneyards

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2019 07:04

Those 21 MiG-29s are our request. From where Russia gets them, is a different issue. See:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 9-fighters

According to Russian sources, preliminary negotiations took place in January, and delivery terms are now being negotiated. It is not clear yet whether the MiGs bound for India will be freshly assembled using airframe parts from RAC MiG’s stocks or be taken from the Russian army’s storehouses and out of air and space force (VKS) units. The manufacturer is believed to still keep a few “classic” MiG-29 fuselages, but wing components need to be made from scratch. The contemporary Advanced Fulcrum family—comprising MiG-29K/KUB and MiG-29M1/M2 (MiG-35)—is far more expensive and unlikely to meet the budget. Moscow can also offer MiG-29s from the stocks of decommissioned equipment, but restoring redundant airframes with limited lifetime resources may not prove to be a cost-effective proposition.

A more likely scenario is that New Delhi will buy MiG-29SMT/UBT aircraft that are now operational with VKS. These represent the latest versions of the “classic” Fulcrum with larger fuel tanks and improved avionics and mission equipment. The VKS received 34 such aircraft in 2009 (manufactured for Algeria under a 2008 contract, but not accepted by the intended customer) and 14 in 2015/16. Russia was selling such aircraft to foreign clients at an average of $38 million, the figure close to the Indian purchase plan.

First flown in 1977 and operational since 1983, the “classic” MiG-29 had a production run of 1,600 single-seat combat jets and two-seat operational trainers. The type is now considered outdated but still surpasses many in-production fighters in its initial climb rate of 65,000 fpm (330m/sec), g-load factor of 9, and maximum Mach number of 2.35.

Meanwhile, place the order for the 83x LCA Mk1A.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Apr 2019 07:15

Sheesh, just order 50 more MKIs. Mig29s will retire in a decade and half. Another burden to carry just for 21 units for many years after that.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 10 Apr 2019 15:51

Cybaru wrote:Sheesh, just order 50 more MKIs. Mig29s will retire in a decade and half. Another burden to carry just for 21 units for many years after that.

I think a Sukhoi squadron is heavy price to pay.
Twice the air men
and price to operate per hour is way too high to fill a gap.

Get the 29s and finally replace with Mk1A or Mk2

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 10 Apr 2019 15:56

Does anyone know what missile was used to bring down the Pak drone in Rajasthan by a Su-30 after Balakot?
This was the drone which fell in Pakistan... The reason i ask is its seeker head may have been retieved by them... It will be useful to know which missile was used

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Apr 2019 15:58

Sukhoi is a heavy hitter, it is less than ideal for ORP operations etc. As pointed out it maintenance is costly , historically we have the highest propotion of heavy aircraft. Mig 29 is far cheaper to maintain, park in smaller bomb proof hangers etc.

Missile used in Drone shoot down is most probably an old R-27, IAF has kept huge stocks of these for Drone and Helicopters, even buying many as recently as 2013 from Ukraine. BRF wondered by R 27's were required when R-77's are there, now it makes sense as these can be used for Drones and Helicopter light aircraft etc.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 10 Apr 2019 16:43

Please see the hardened pen in Srinagar and Awantipur (from where MIG21 took off). Now you will understand why IAF asked for smallest/lightest LCA, because perhaps only these can fit there (someone like Gagan do a more precise measuring). Mig 29 may fit in, SU30MKI wont. We have enough SU30MKI but it cannot stop misadventure like one we had after Balakot. You need a forward placed plane, cheaper (so preemptive strike on them does not hurt much - It will happen), able to take off from higher altitude, smaller takeoff distances and very very fast. Actually Mig 21bs are the one that fits the bill (and proof is, it shot down a F-16 and thwarted preemptive PAF strike). Few Mig 29 here and there in the mix would help us.
We already have or will have 67+54 Mig 29s (120 in number, second most numerous type in IAF, we will be stocking and supporting it for a long time and in a-a, in the merge it maybe still better than LCA). Getting some another 20-60 at a lower price will only help. These then will be pulling off ORP duties on the western front).

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Apr 2019 16:49

Fanne I think you have IN Mig 29K nos as well

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Apr 2019 18:25

fanne wrote:Please see the hardened pen in Srinagar and Awantipur (from where MIG21 took off). Now you will understand why IAF asked for smallest/lightest LCA, because perhaps only these can fit there (someone like Gagan do a more precise measuring). Mig 29 may fit in, SU30MKI wont. .

isnt that cutting off the arm to suit the coat ?! ..what prevents the IAF from building bigger hardened pens ?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 10 Apr 2019 20:06

Last year I tweeted to pmo, modi, jaitley & nirmala ji :

63 Mig-35s from Russia on the condition that they take guarentee of fitting Kaveri instead of RD-33.
+
Uttam Radar

Airframes manufactured in Russia but as offsets Russia sets up Kaveri manufacturing plant in India.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 11 Apr 2019 00:41

How could Russia get Kaveri for us, when we are the designer of it? Or do you mean test and mature it for us? That is another 5-10 years project and costly, we need economical airframes and now

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Apr 2019 09:03

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/11 ... 7060180992

Negative balance of power was created in the region after the US provided 500 AMRAAMs to the Pakistani air force. This gave them BVR capability that was missing for Pakistan during the Kargil war - Air Marshal Nohwar at an Ananta seminar on Balakot

We had to take defensive measures at all times after the Balakot strike as the Pakistani air force had greater BVR missile capabilities - Air Marshal Nohwar.

PAF did not see the 'little fish' that snuck up when its fighters were concentrating on getting a bigger aircraft like the Su 30 MKI - Air Marshal Nohwar.

The R 73 fired by Wing Commander Abhinandan is the most potent close range air to air missile in the world- Air Marshal Nohwar.

The Balakot strike was not a silver bullet. There can be no silver bullet when it comes to Pak sponsored terror. Will require a patient and long term approach - former High Commissioner to Pak Sharat Sabharwal.