MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Apr 2019 02:15

I have to admit i might have understood this all wrong and underestimated the GOI.

Chances are that they expected this all along. Ref: B Raman's story about detonators and previous instances of similar "we presented the evidence but but...".

So they sounded the planks, figured out what would result if they came out with the evidence or presented it to the Khan and how it would be discredited.

Instead they kept quiet. Waited for the Laras and Al-Habibis to come out with the planted stories.

Then hit back with a pointed, surgical strike. Again, note - Re: Nirmala Ma'am's comment about "we know about the pilot" (paraphrasing). The MOD/GOI knows far more than it let out today.

That information too has been kept carefully.

This truly is hybrid war 101 and we are caught up in it. Instead of showing all your cards upfront, the GOI is reacting carefully & pointedly to attacks on its & IAF's credibility by releasing the exact amount of info. using our own resources to the optimal (multiple media sources, so one media house can't suppress it by itself as was done in the cash for votes scam, and also providing pointed info to credible folks like in the veterans community).

While mistakes have been made initially, they are doing better now.

Very interesting, given the power differential in managing a propaganda campaign, the GOI/ IAF have chosen this method to make its point and also, prevent classified capabilities from coming out.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Apr 2019 02:17

Y I Patel wrote:
ramana wrote:

You why are you politicizing this F16 matter by bringing in Modi?

Go back and edit your post.
Wow. Did not expect this for something that was intended to imply something entirely different. Nevertheless, since emotions are high, I will delete post.

As a member of long standing I am disappointed by this reaction.

YI Patel, I just read the post. To be honest, I had to read it a couple of times before I (think) I got what you meant to imply, you meant to (perhaps) imply that the Pakistani's propaganda opened up more opportunities for us.

But the way it was worded it would have led to more blue on blue for sure. It was just worded very badly to be frank.

Please do delete it.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Apr 2019 02:20

Karan M wrote:I have to admit i might have understood this all wrong and underestimated the GOI.

Good Post. +108!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Apr 2019 02:26

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1114 ... 77280.html

Big breaking @IndiaToday
#Feb27Dogfight AWCS images show presence of 11 F 16s
PAK intercepts available with Indian agencies show 2 aircraft went down with two pilots.
One was Wing Commander Abhinandan . The second identity not known as Pakistan has not revealed.
Radio Transmission intercepts from Pak #Feb2dogfight

1205 Feb 27
Ye enemy ka tabah hua hai. Jo parinde the enemy ka tha. Wo jo parnde wale hain un dono ko pakad liya.
1242 Hrs

Enemy ka jo tabah hua parinda wala hai humne pakad liya union mein le aaye. Dusre ko bhi pakad liya
Electronic signatures available to IAF clearly indicate it was F 16 that went down. Wing Commander Abhinandan engaged with F 16. Two sitting ejections conformed at locations 8-10 km away. One was Mig 21 bison of @IAF_MCC the other Pak aircraft F 16

The F16 that was visible through electronic surveillance engaged with Mig 21 bison suddenly went missing within 8 seconds. This was after it was hit by Wing Commander Abhinandan

The visual images through electronic surveillance show F 16 flew over Mirpur and the engagement took place in Subzkot opposite Rajouri and Nowshera on the Indian side. At this this point dogfight took place with Abhinandan and only F 16 were deployed. JF 17s were North of this

One of the intercepts of Feb 27, 1520 hrs identifies Wing Commander Abhinandan as the Mig 21 pilot an Pak custody. “Doosra ek zakhmi hai who military hospital mein hai” (the other one is in military hospital). Till date Pak has not said anything about this second pilot. Why?

Sources said there are also intercepts suggesting that an F 16 was shot down

naird · Post by **naird** » 06 Apr 2019 02:27

Karan M wrote:I have to admit i might have understood this all wrong and underestimated the GOI.

Chances are that they expected this all along. Ref: B Raman's story about detonators and previous instances of similar "we presented the evidence but but...".

So they sounded the planks, figured out what would result if they came out with the evidence or presented it to the Khan and how it would be discredited.

Instead they kept quiet. Waited for the Laras and Al-Habibis to come out with the planted stories.

Then hit back with a pointed, surgical strike. Again, note - Re: Nirmala Ma'am's comment about "we know about the pilot" (paraphrasing). The MOD/GOI knows far more than it let out today.

That information too has been kept carefully.

This truly is hybrid war 101 and we are caught up in it. Instead of showing all your cards upfront, the GOI is reacting carefully & pointedly to attacks on its & IAF's credibility by releasing the exact amount of info. using our own resources to the optimal (multiple media sources, so one media house can't suppress it by itself as was done in the cash for votes scam, and also providing pointed info to credible folks like in the veterans community).

While mistakes have been made initially, they are doing better now.

Very interesting, given the power differential in managing a propaganda campaign, the GOI/ IAF have chosen this method to make its point and also, prevent classified capabilities from coming out.

Was a presser done or was this off the cameras briefing? Just catching up with this break. Either way Karan it seems to me that GOI/IAF is behind in this game.
Pakis have just one thing - their false sense of bravado supported by lies. It has to crash for their awam to question them. That objective will not be achieved with show your cards then i will you mine approach.

However you were right in your assumption. Awacs was indeed monitoring situation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Apr 2019 02:28

Yogi it's very charged atmosphere.
No time or place for subtleties.
I asked to preempt bandwagoning.
Sorry to hurt you.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Apr 2019 02:31

>>>One of the intercepts of Feb 27, 1520 hrs identifies Wing Commander Abhinandan as the Mig 21 pilot an Pak custody. “Doosra ek zakhmi hai who military hospital mein hai” (the other one is in military hospital). Till date Pak has not said anything about this second pilot. Why?

So we intercepted the pilot's shootdown, but we don't know who it was? His ID was never broadcast? Our HUMINT inside Pakistan which goes so far as to tell us the exact people present in Balakot, their names, locations and where they sleep, hasn't got us this info, which will be OPEN knowledge amongst the tight-knit PAF F-16 community?

Boss, there is information. Its just being released as is "necessary". Twist and turn.

Somehow, I now think Madame Sitharaman's comment about "social media said the pilot was..." was neither inadvertent nor spur of the moment.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Apr 2019 02:41

naird wrote:Was a presser done or was this off the cameras briefing? Just catching up with this break. Either way Karan it seems to me that GOI/IAF is behind in this game.
Pakis have just one thing - their false sense of bravado supported by lies. It has to crash for their awam to question them. That objective will not be achieved with show your cards then i will you mine approach.

Please understand the situation (even I am gradually beginning to understand this). This is a high stakes card game. Don't show your cards, keep a straight face while the other side tries to call you out, figure out what you have in your hand etc, then you reveal only what is necessary and keep what is necessary in your other fist.

This was an off the record presser done with multiple media outlets. Again why off the record (see 2.a) and why multiple (so many channels report it) to reach max. audience.

Now, here's what I understand.

1. GOI has a lot of information in its hand.

2. Revealing that info early or even completely

a. Gives away classified abilities (e.g. Phalcon radar image to anyone not an amateur journalist can even provide details of what all it tracks. If you obfuscate that image, you will be called to release more by saying it was fake/useless etc). Similarly, sat or UAV or ISAR images of Balakot give away resolution, limitations of what it can and cannot see.

b. Allows people to set you up to counter that info. You release today's info, the whole Khan-Pak set up would have so much time to prepare trot out experts to claim everything was false.

3.This propaganda war does very little to convince TSP awaam. Most TSP online guys are not average supporters. They are a tiny tiny elite with access to net and who speak english. The propaganda war online is just a sideshow.

4. The key aim to still manage the propaganda is to ensure GOI/IAFs credibility in front of an international audience and domestic one as well, which is sought to be shaped by many vested interests (TSP's four fathers in BR speak, who constantly protect it and its image) and want to deter India from resorting to periodical strikes by messaging this one as an Indian defeat. It is important for India's credibility that this remain at least a controversy (even that is a win given the lopsided power differential) even if its not seen as an outright win but the domestic audience which implicitly understands colonialism, will respect GOI's point and the information it reveals.

5. In this milieu, we would be silly to tip our hand and reveal all our "evidence" as much of this is classified in nature and can even be countered by "paid for" experts who magically appear on twitter or give unsourced sound bytes to western reporters. We should ration the non classified parts and reveal it as essential to hit back at disinformation campaigns from vested interests.

6.What haven't we done well? We still haven't undertaken punitive measures against propaganda outlets like the NYT, BBC or even domestic media houses who were part of the propaganda campaign. Restricting their access to the Indian market, via their subsidiaries even would be a good step.

7. This situation is likely to persist till we build up such overwhelming capabilities across the spectrum that revealing RISAT xxx (e.g.) images don't really affect our warfighting even if the opponent gets a counter.

However you were right in your assumption. Awacs was indeed monitoring situation.

Yes.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Apr 2019 02:55

What I am most angry about is people Dhoti shivering about this.

Let's for a second assume that no paki aircraft was shot down. Even then the fact remains that the PAF attempted a large scale attack using 24 fighter aircraft armed with PGM's and an AWACS, and they were stopped by merely 8 IAF jets. None of their bombs hit the target. While the IAF's Balakot air strike went unopposed. Whether you believe the evidence IAF (and a lot of us here) presented or not makes no difference to this basic scenario. So why exactly are people in a "sky is falling" mode here?

During Kargil, we lost 2 jets and a chopper in one day, over our own territory with zero PAF involvement. That happens in a war. I was young then but from what I remember I did not see media articles claiming IAF is in crisis because of their performance etc etc. like we do now.

I'm afraid to imagine what would have happened if we had lost a jet during the Balakot strikes. I do not doubt now, that people would have been falling over themselves in the MSM and social media wailing about IAF failure, modi should resign etc. etc. When you are entering enemy territory or defending your own there will be losses. We can't simultaneously claim govt. should do something about paki terrorism and start complaining about losses when they do.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Apr 2019 03:01

Nachiket, I have begun to realize many people here and elsewhere think war is a T-20 match. They expect somebody from the military at the crease swinging away so that they (the crowd) can yell and scream in pleasure, a six, a six, a four, a four!!

No wonder actual warfighters would shake their head at such behavior or lack of perspective.

We had one poster ask the IAF to "man up" about Balakote strike!

Man up.. yes sure, lets head off to meet a fighter pilot who flew a 100 km strike into defended territory, at high subsonic, scanning between his radar, his EW, the map on his leg, the map on the display, while keeping an eye out through his NVGs for an enemy fighter sneaking up, his brain multiplexing for R/T calls from the AWACS and then carries out a PGM strike by keeping the fighter rock steady.. even as his escorts call out enemy fighters are in the vicinity and they are engaging them/pushing them back by painting them on radar and the situation may turn hostile ... and then lets tell this guy once he returns, shakes off the "G"s when he gets out of the cockpit, to "man up" because some teenaged morons in Australia or some potbellied journalists are "not convinced".

I mean, seriously? This is on BR.

I am reminded of Sandeep Unnikrishnan's loss in 26/11. The Black Cats CO, an IPS appointee thought he might need to perk up morale by giving a pep talk to the commandos. His 2IC from the ParaSF stopped him. He said, look these guys are soldiers, they are mission and task focused, they have already taken his loss in stride and this is what we do, so don't worry.

Unfortunately, the civilian junta is yet to develop similar fortitude or even understand how the propaganda game is played.

People online like that Iyerval are equally comical. A few weeks before the air strike he was busy running down Netra, because it was "Indian made". These are the guys we expect to face the Pak propaganda offensive? Desi stuff isn't "cool". With these mindset issues and lack of any real world technology awareness, how will these "defence analysts" even understand what it means to develop, qualify or even deploy technology as the IAF has painstakingly done over many many decades?

When our cricketer is on the crease, he should "look cool". This import fetish is about bragging rights. We have Phalcon, you have tiny Erieyes in the minds of some of these guys. You have F-16, we have fancy Gripen, that's "victory".

Thank goodness we didn't have mass internet at Kargil. These guys would have run through 10,000 diapers each.

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Apr 2019 03:45

Karan M wrote:Thank goodness we didn't have mass internet at Kargil. These guys would have run through 10,000 diapers each.

They did. I was on this forum and on other places (email groups/BBSes) just countering the dhoti shivering.

---

One of us have already pointed out something that needs to be pointed out again.

ANI: "IAF sources also confirmed that radio communication of Pakistan Air Force intercepted by it confirms that one of the F-16s that attacked India on Feb 27 did not return to its base"

Posters need to think through on the implications of bolded part.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Apr 2019 04:19

Karan M wrote:Nachiket, I have begun to realize many people here and elsewhere think war is a T-20 match. They expect somebody from the military at the crease swinging away so that they (the crowd) can yell and scream in pleasure, a six, a six, a four, a four!!

Thank goodness we didn't have mass internet at Kargil. These guys would have run through 10,000 diapers each.

I don't know if it is the internet and T-20 like expectations or something more.

During Kargil, we did not have mass internet and SM, but we did have 24x7 TV channels trying to deconstruct each day's battles and providing casualty reports which grew alarmingly large every day. People were worried, but I do not remember panic like I'm seeing in certain quarters now.

Go way back to 1965 and we see the situation was far more precarious. India was starving and dependent on imported wheat, pakis had qualitative (and in some cases quantitative) advantages in equipment, we lost 4 Vampires the first time we used them and IAF had to take 130 jets out of service right at the start! The offensive preceding Asal Uttar and the battle itself was a close thing and had the potential to be the 4th battle of panipat for us. Through all that people were steadfastly behind the armed forces and government and did not start questioning their ability or professionalism.

And now people collectively lose their minds after when one Mig-21 is lost. Perhaps it is because they do not accept that we are in a war like they did in 1999 or 1965. It has to be fought differently than before, but it is a war nevertheless. Pakis do not have to occupy our territory every time for it to be considered a war. We have lost more soldiers and civilians fighting terrorists in Kashmir than we did in Kargil. It was way past time that something like Balakot and Surgical strikes happened. But yes, these operations are no different than assaulting Tiger Hill or Nirmaljeet Singh Sekhon defending Srinagar against six sabres. There will be losses. Some operations might even fail completely, even though they have succeeded till now. But that is part of war. And neither the armed forces not the government needs people questioning their tactics if it happens.

You are basically making it easier for the next government to shy away from doing something like this after the next terrorist attack (and there will surely be one), with the excuse, "Look what happened last time!" instead of them being under pressure to respond.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Apr 2019 05:02

Speaking of championships in lying, check the "Understand USA" thread.

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Apr 2019 05:11

My take, people are more aware and are feeling more connected. When WingCo was shot down, people I interacted with were more concerned about how Bakis will treat him and if he will be returned safely or not. Nobody trusted Baki to do the right thing (and they did not).

The rest of the dhoti shivering is being amplified by Media and in turn in BRF we are amplifying it further creating a deafening feedback loop. Media has its own biases and interests. Any caterwauling of "show verifiable proof" should be derisively dismissed. Sometimes we become too indulgent though.

IMO, we at BRF are also getting some parts wrong about F-16 and US MIC.

It is not just about sale of F-16 to India (or for that matter F-21 made in India for India) though both are anyway useless compared to LCA Mk2. It is about the future of the American MIC itself. For the countries in the Indian sphere of influence (from ME to SEA), Mig-21 downing F-16 validates to them the training/tactics/processes/plans (the whole stack...) developed by IAF. So when India introduces its LCA Mk1A for sale to Malaysia or when Vietnam is looking to replace its odd two squadrons of Su-27 or when Thailand is looking to replace its couple of dozen F5s or Indonesia is looking to upgrade its couple of dozen Hawk squadrons., we are now talking about within SEA some 10 squadrons of fighters tested and verified professionally against a powerful adversary (F16). Just imagine the kind of shivers it is going to send and to which quarters.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 06 Apr 2019 06:11

IMO ppl need to calm down. This is an excellent opportunity to show up the liars, calmly and without mercy. But you need to be smart, patient and ruthless.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 06 Apr 2019 06:41

My take, people are more aware and are feeling more connected. When WingCo was shot down, people I interacted with were more concerned about how Bakis will treat him and if he will be returned safely or not. Nobody trusted Baki to do the right thing (and they did not).

Well the Pakistanis made an error, they released directly, or through acquiescence, the video of the airman on the ground, beaten and bleeding. From then on, this conflict was no longer clinical. The aam junta in India has a certain cynicism about any government. But here many acknowledged Abhinandan as brother. Which gave GOI the resolve to push Pakistan further, then and in the near future. I do not think GOI is done with Pakistan yet.

habal · Post by **habal** » 06 Apr 2019 06:43

firstly I doubt SD will come up with any official statement, because SD officially operates under Trump. Unofficially it can make a lot of mischief on behalf of its clients like SD's erstwhile support to ISIS, Nusra, White helmets etc under Obama admin.

behaviour of some Indians during any crisis is proof of why India was colonised by various entities for long periods of time.

As Indians we simply cannot stand united behind a single flag. There are tons of attention seekers today who wish to dissent against govt which is in a state of war just like there were dissidents back then who stabbed India in the back and conspired against their own countrymen against the british.

All arms and power is immaterial if as Indians we are not able to gather under the same page for fighting against a state that has sponsored terrorism against India for many decades.

Have all the people who died in 26/11 been forgotten, have all the hindu & liberal bengalis who died in 1971 been forgotten, have all people who died in kashmir and kargil forgotten, what about the innumerable bomb blasts and other indignities forgotten.

why do we have no value for lives of our people. Are Indian lives so cheap that there are none to avenge them.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Apr 2019 06:48

https://twitter.com/elmihiro/status/1114233142875807746 ---> Observation: It appears that very few Indian journalists are buying FP’s story on the PAF F-16 count. And what they saw at the IAF’s briefing seems to have made them even more skeptical.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 06 Apr 2019 06:54

habal wrote:why do we have no value for lives of our people. Are Indian lives so cheap that there are none to avenge them.

There are plenty to avenge them, just not many to appreciate them.

anupamd · Post by **anupamd** » 06 Apr 2019 07:28

The LF article looks more like a plant to reveal India's hand. Now it could be even our Govt. who could have done this ... In this highly charged atmosphere, no one would question and cry election ethics now when Govt is revealing more information of that day to this provocation. A real chanakyan move it would be.

Even if it is other vested interests then also the Govt wins. It has revealed just enough to keep the pot boiling. Only Gafoor bhai, the fool as he is, is ever dancing to changing tunes. Only he is not realizing the tunes are not his.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2019 07:37

Karan M wrote:Nachiket, I have begun to realize many people here and elsewhere think war is a T-20 match. They expect somebody from the military at the crease swinging away so that they (the crowd) can yell and scream in pleasure, a six, a six, a four, a four!!

this is exactly what I told another member always baying for blood and "visible results".

evil empires are seldom burned to the ground in a showpiece war, they weaken and collapse from within (with external foes giving deft pushes).

even against medium sized foes, its a long hard slog. how many good syrian lives did it take to defeat the ISIS and Nusra?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 06 Apr 2019 07:37

Featuring Kugelman who finds absolutely no need to question anything in Foreign Policy. I used to say the same thing about Pravda.

habal · Post by **habal** » 06 Apr 2019 07:46

Pakistan has tentacles embedded into democrat fake news network through huma abedin and imran awan, debbie wasserman shultz 'IT consultant' and only God knows how many creeps are still hiding out in democrat networks. These networks are used to promote radical Islamic worldview and financed by Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait funds. Very easy for ISI to tap this network that hasn't been dismantled by Trump admin because from looks of it this network will be revived later to launch wars against Eyeran and create more trouble in mid-east, they are just being kept in dormant state now. This network knows how to 'fake evidence' like the numerous gas attacks by isis was blamed on assad and 'experts' were bought in to even make it sound credible. Don't you remember hannah and her placards in Syrian war and later it was discovered that she was children of one of isis or white helmets and not a hapless refugee.

Trump cannot even shut up fake news capital cnn so very less chance of him moving against this network.

khan · Post by **khan** » 06 Apr 2019 07:57

arun wrote:
khan wrote:
I think we should take this seriously.

800% Agree.

It is more and more getting clear that the Balakot strike missed the target and that our Air Force does not have the burka of the mitigating factor like the downing of a F16 of the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan. As a Resident Tax Paying Indian National let me say bollocks to jingo ostrich style head in the sand denial and say time for the IAF to man up and undertake a study to ensure that there is no future repetition of letting our country down as was the case in this all-round fiasco so as to ensure that the next time a strike is carried out, it will be satisfactorily concluded. It is not the end of the world or an existential threat to my country India, my Airforce the IAF or the my PM Modi led NDA Government to own up to a fiasco at Balakot and its aftermath. And no, what I have said is not a plug for the Nehru Gandhi family Dynasty led Congress Party.

Plagiarising Alfred Lord Tennyson line of “Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all” to read “Tis better to have attacked and lost than never to have attacked at all”.
-------------

User warned for making comments in poor taste and with incredible lack of self awareness about warfighters, to "man up" etc and flaming fellow posters.

Km

I assume you were being sarcastic.

My point was this Foreign Policy magazine is a well known reputable outlet - which translates into establishment mouth piece.

This type of an attack on GOI credibility cannot be wished away. If GOI’s story wasn’t for morale boosting (which is perfectly legitimate in war time IMO) & GOI wants to stick with its story, and GOI wants it’s narrative to maintain any credibility, it will have to respond.

And I am happy to note that there was a good response.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 06 Apr 2019 08:16

GOI has to respond to a magazine writer sitting in Washington?

What have these intrepid newsmen found after visiting Balakot? Why the deafening silence? Where are the questions on Pakistan's delay in granting access, on their no doubt chaperoned tours?

Adjudicating the squabbles of petty nations is a time honoured part of the white privilege that comes with the being a newspaperman. Ask Neville Maxwell, the Australian who fancies himself less primitive than the Aborigine, thus qualified to pronounce on India's society (see his tract on Nagaland) and fully supportive of Australia's record with the aborigine given his deafening silence.

syam · Post by **syam** » 06 Apr 2019 08:18

Time for ct -

US administration is beyond f*cked up now. So many different factions. Each pursuing their own agenda. Pentagon issues one statement, and nasa different statement. Just think about it. This lara loshan might belong to one of these factions. This faction might not be in co-ord with pentagon/trump faction.

Trump invites indian scientists. The state department(?) doesn't give visa.

It looks like all is not well. I might be wrong. Why so many contradictions when US does something?

habal · Post by **habal** » 06 Apr 2019 08:31

It is not just Indian scientist denied visa.
If it is of any comfort.

Israel Prize winner Shamir from the Weizmann Institute, who won the 2002 Turing Prize, was unable to attend a conference in San Francisco.
Prof. Adi Shamir from Israel's Weizmann Institute of Science in Rehovot, one of the world's leading cryptographers, was denied a visa to enter the US in order to attend a professional conference in San Francisco.
https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-isra ... 1001277019

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 06 Apr 2019 08:40

Prem Kumar wrote:If the GOI wants to play the psy-ops game, all it needs to do is have Rajat Pandit say something like the following, quoting a highly placed MEA official

Slightly OT.

I recall Rajat Pandit as the LIFAFA ch****ya who wrote incessantly on how LCA Tejas was a failure right since the early 80s. Hope the GOI knows about this and is careful about handing over sensitive info to people like him.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 425322.cms
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 911632.cms

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2019 09:01

looking at MSM today morning, the laura seligman hitjob was a damp squib. nobody cares. even the India govts briefing is buried deep inside TOI.
the GOI neutered the situation with a good briefing last night....and hopefully all journos were made to sign NDAs and given a clear briefing what not to reveal.

I guess with world famous success stories like "WMD in Iraq" and "white helmets saving syria" the rep of the US MSM is below zero. even Trump says so

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 06 Apr 2019 09:25

I must admit that I am disappointed by BRF today. I posted the the following on page 51 and went on with my day yesterday, thinking no more about it; this was BRF after all so I would have been preaching to the choir only:

arshyam wrote:
esommuk wrote:The onus is on IAF to come up with concrete evidence, radar signatures etc to show involvement of F16s and subsequent shooting down of one. Posturing and creating a fog/myth does not help in the long run.
Aha, but this is what the issue is about - forcing our hand to reveal what intel we have about the F-16 going down. Radar signatures would do nicely, no? Perhaps some visuals of what our Netra/AWACS operators were seeing would also help the cause? Maybe some sat tracking pics would add icing on the cake?

Let's be clear on one thing: there is NO onus on the IAF or GoI to say anything. If they want to, they might say something at somepoint, but not in response to some random nonsense. Nirmala Sitharaman has been quite clear on that point on multiple occasions.

But what do I find today? The thread has moved forward another 5 pages! I for a moment thought there was another air skirmish and hence the thread activity, so I scan through each of the 5 pages for info, but what do I find? Discussion about the same article which was based on no credible source whose only other claim to fame was that it was written by a hitherto unknown gori mem for a gora rag. And we BRFites saw it fit to discuss that lame article over 5 pages, many posts* "putting the onus on the IAF"! Seriously, folks?

When we ourselves give so much credibility to gora nonsense, that too a single (f)article, why expect anything different from fellow countrymen and women?

* Not all posters bought the article unquestioningly, and many stalwarts fought the good fight over the past few pages, but wouldn't their energies have been better utilized on some more important issue?

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 06 Apr 2019 09:52

Trust your own armed forces.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 06 Apr 2019 10:09

For me the icing on the cake of GoI press conference was that we have the capability to intercept possibly encrypted/secured radio transmissions of our adversaries and decode it. This is great...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Apr 2019 10:15

ldev wrote:Have Proof Pakistani F-16 Shot Down, Says Air Force; Refutes US Journal Report

The Air Force said radio intercepts proved that two pilots had ejected, not just one.

Journalists were shown the radar tracks of the air battle that took place across the LoC near Jhangar, which lies between Rajouri and Nowshera.

The radar tracks recorded by airborne warning and control aircraft show the presence of an F-16 aircraft in the vicinity of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman's MiG-21 Bison. In the very next frame of the AWACS picture, eight seconds later, the symbol for the PAF F-16 aircraft is missing indicating what IAF sources say is a shootdown of the jet. IAF controllers monitoring the air battle on the AWACS aircraft were also monitoring the radio communication between pilots in the Pakistan F-16 formation. They say communication from one F-16 aircraft abruptly ended which they believe is further confirmation that one Pakistan Air Force jet did not return. However, journalists were not showcased a recording of the audio communication that was taking place on security grounds./quote]

I think this capability which we have the Americans are interested to what extent we have. I don't they are just talking about radio communication, but ability to intercept Data packets sent to and from Link 16 network and whether we have the capability using encryption keys to decipher such data.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 06 Apr 2019 10:45

i think the radio comm which was played before the journos was 'parinde neeche aa rahe hain etc ' was between ground units and not air to ground or air to air...IMHO.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 06 Apr 2019 10:52

From Vishnu Som on twitter, provides more background
https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 1645639681

1. In a briefing lasting more than an hour, senior IAF officers briefed journalists on why they insist Wing Commander Abhinandan shot down an F-16. I was there.

2. We were showcased radar tracks from IAF Phalcon aircraft. There were 2 frames we were shown. 1 had symbology of Abhi's MiG, close to a Pak F-16.

3. In the next frame, just 8 seconds later on the timeline, the track (symbol) depicting the F-16 is missing. The IAF says it was shot down.

4. Simultaneously, the IAF was monitoring the tactical communications between the PAF formation. The communications of one of these F-16s abruptly ended indicating a shoot down says the IAF.

5. The engagement took place far West (I dont know the distance) of the LoC, opposite Jhangar which lies between Rajouri and Nowshera.

6. There was a gap of about 6 kms between the parachutes of Abhi and the Pak pilot shot down.

7. The IAF concludes there was a second pilot who parachuted and was taken to a Pak military hospital.

8. There was another aircraft which crashed which wasn't a MiG-21.

9. Electronic signals and AWACS intercepts indicate and F-16 was in the area.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 06 Apr 2019 11:04

The PAFs refusal of acknowledgement indicates that it might have been the jf17 that went down, not the f16. The J17s frame is a cross(copy) between the f16/18 riding on an old engine.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Apr 2019 11:12

nvishal wrote:The PAFs refusal of acknowledgement indicates that it might have been the jf17 that went down, not the f16. The J17s frame is a cross(copy) between the f16/18 riding on an old engine.

IAF stating its a F-16 means they know its a F-16, they have enough details to know which aircraft Pilots etc... PAF is an airforce which claimed a F-86 shot down 5 Hunters in 23 seconds with guns. Over 70 years from Kashmir war to Kargil, surgical strikes they have lied.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Apr 2019 11:29

nvishal wrote:The PAFs refusal of acknowledgement indicates that it might have been the jf17 that went down, not the f16. The J17s frame is a cross(copy) between the f16/18 riding on an old engine.

Arrey Bhai, the IAF had already stated that it was an f16 that was shot down. Why are you second guessing?

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 06 Apr 2019 11:33

IB4TL

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Apr 2019 11:45

The IAF has done its job of taking the war to the enemy. Its the job of media and MEA to do the same. In this case, the U.S did something stupid by identifying themselves as the enemy via their FP farticle. That's what pressure does to you. That's what being a divided-house does to you.

So, no point in giving proof which will be met with demands of even more proof. Its like Aryan Invasion Theory nonsense. The other side lies brazenly, while we try to be purer than snow. So, here is my humble suggestion for fighting them over there. Sow seeds of Bheda & create a narrative of the lying American establishment:

1) Point out that U.S is a divided house & their own President doesn't trust their media. NORAD doesn't trust NASA. WH doesn't trust the deep state

2) U.S media has a history of lying. Example: WMD in Iraq.

3) Chastise the U.S for aiding & abetting a state sponsor of terror. Ask them why they supplied Pakis with F-16 and Amraams. Why did they lie about their weapons not being permitted to use against India. Point out that the Pentagon and U.S media lied about involvement of F-16s

4) Gently remind them that the fact that they leak information via 2-bit journalists shows that their F-16 was shot down. Otherwise Pentagon would've come out with a statement. Force their hand.

5) All the above should be used to paint the U.S as being divided & dishonest. Even more gently, remind them that there is a price to be paid for dishonesty and arming our enemy - i.e. less preferential treatment in military procurement