Indian ASAT Test

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Singha
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 21:56

didnt she tongue lash them in AI2019 in a surprise outburst that left many shocked ?

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby srin » 07 Apr 2019 22:09

One brochuritis pooch: the SM-3 that the Unkil used to do their ASAT for their Burnt Frost test weighs around 1.5t. Whereas our ASAT was 19t.

Is it that the Unkil has some djinn technology - composite casing etc etc
Or
Is it that their ASAT is pretty limited for low altitude interceptions and can't handle 1000km+ that PDV Mk2 can ?

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2019 22:20

the sm3 block IIA the fat 21" diameter model that is JV of raytheon and mitsubishi claims per this chart to be 600km capable.
the other variants are 200-300km
their anti ICBM play is here https://missilethreat.csis.org/defsys/gbi/
its bigger than our asat missile 21tons , 16m, 1.28m dia

Image

one can always keep gold plating with higher divert thrusters, a onboard x-band or mmw-radar, multiple wide angle IIR sensors, ability to discriminate decoys ..... beyond a point its like those 5 camera on cellphones and 48 MP selfie cams....its just NREGA type jobs to keep the defence contractors fed and happy. a good lot of US projects are gold plating already great or good enough stuff via never ending rolling updates.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby disha » 08 Apr 2019 00:36

Rakesh wrote:The Official DRDO Video of the Anti-Satellite Missile Test - Mission Shakti



Anybody dhoti shivering in -ve g's and gaslighting SDRE comparing tech like ASAT with neighbor on the the NE should pause and ponder over the following points:

1. How many times have you openly seen images or videos of ASATs of other countries? Grainy images do not count. Images behind fences do not count.

2. How many times there is deep discussion of the launch of test capability and its target? In fact the very target is shown in terminal stage?

3. How many times there is test video of the convergent/divergent motors of the HTK? It appears to be unique to Indian ASAT.

Put it this way, until the neighbor on the NE shows images, all we can say is that theirs is an iffy proposition. Interestingly one should read up on the issues US faced on developing the missile stages for its operation Burnt Frost.

*I do not know how to link the above to the first page on this thread. But it should be linked as a must watch!

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 01:00

Singha wrote:didnt she tongue lash them in AI2019 in a surprise outburst that left many shocked ?


Didn't tongue lash them, asked them to be more public with their achievements so everyone "knew what they were doing". That has some cons as well. Will give import dalals an even better look into what's available w/them beyond leaks from Delhi. So, great pep talk, but DRDO needs to have a process in place to reveal stuff but with adequate safeguards.

Karan & others,
Remember back in Feb, RM said DRDO needs to talk more?


Yes, but I hope that's done with a lot of consistency, and people dedicated to the task.

Frankly, DESIDOC, which is supposed to be DRDO's part time publication and PR wing is an absolute disgrace. They don't promote the organization well at all. And are mostly seat warmers who release magazines that could be surpassed in visuals, information presentation, by a bunch of 12th class kids with editing software. Its absolutely shameful because even as DRDO's scientists slave over such world-class tech., and their users appreciate it, DESIDOC does NOTHING to promote the organization or even show it optimally. Just look at the websites.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby syam » 08 Apr 2019 01:14

Our vintage presentation skills are boon to us in disguise. Just imagine doing some high quality pr stuff. Whole world would have taken us very seriously.

IMO this type of under presentation has certain charm. Nothing too fancy, but works excellent. Like those unassuming yogis.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 02:11

Their "vintage presentation skills" end up casting the efforts of the real doers on the R&D side in the worst possible light. Even the DRDO brochures published at Aero India or elsewhere are nowhere to be found on the website. They could have been available in PDF form. The videos they display in these forums could be re-used. What does Desidoc do with all this? Nothing.

One veteran whom I was corresponding with, was under the impression no DRDO product was in service in the specific area he was writing about. Reason being, he spent hours looking for data and could not find anything. So he assumed they were eating all the money, doing nothing but time wasting. All because the Desidoc guys could not even get anyone to update a website.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby sanjaykumar » 08 Apr 2019 02:15

Karan M wrote:
SriKumar wrote:Agree about the real need to release deep technical details in public. The impact video shows very clearly all the course changes made in the last one second prior to impact. A NOTAM was issued prior to the test, and so all eyes would have been pointed to that location anyway. I have to believe, though, that release of video would have had clearance at the highest levels. It came out many days after the test.


There are many details given in official GOI literature, including CAG reports which have had to be sanitized and even when done so, are not sufficient. Impact video and details released can lead to the development of counter measures.

I can only surmise that the need to establish credible interception, and prevent FUD from the likes of the FP/Diplomat article by vested interests, forced the need for this extraordinary level of disclosure. And given it has occurred, the operational system will have further capabilities in play, to counter any disadvantages (ie countermeasure development) gained from the release of this one video.



Yes all one can state with some confidence is that DRDO has developed some more advanced technology that they have not revealed, perhaps non-kinetic kill mechanisms EMP pulse, DEW, lasers etc.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby sudeepj » 08 Apr 2019 02:28

hnair wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/strategic_front/status/1114523893383847936 ---> During missile assembly.

Image



Cannister behind! 8)


That's an A5 cannister.. It says A 5 in devnagari right below bharat.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Amber G. » 08 Apr 2019 02:42

UlanBatori wrote:Try actually throwing a ball straight up. It stops at the top and comes back down into your hands ...

Hey UB, I have a challenge for you,. See if you can answer the following *simple* question in straight forward manner -- without resorting to insults and other irrelevant comments.

If one "threw" a "ball" straight up with 1 km/second speed from Mumbai will it: (Okay the ball is rather fast)
a) land back exactly into "your hand" (the place where the ball was thrown)? If not how far away in which direction will it will land?
b) How high will it go?
c) at the "top" will the speed be zero? if not how much? (wrt to person on the ground in Mumbai)



This is NOT a trick question. Assume no air-resistance. Assume one can throw the ball at Mach-3 ityadi - (just a thought experiment.) Assume any standard/sensible value(s) for physical constants like g ityadi.. ityadi.. And all positions, velocity etc are wrt to the person on the ground.

So my challenge is can you answer this in next 24 hours. It normally requires only a few minutes math or logical thinking.
PLEASE NO insults and NO irrelevant rambling - Just the answers.

I ask this question, because, if you are able (or even interested to learn ) to answer this, I think you would be able to understand the basics.

Others : Please wait at least 24 hours before discussing this.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Amber G. » 08 Apr 2019 02:46

UlanBatori wrote: No it sadly does not [help], Amberji.

Fine, sorry I can't waste more time to help you understand. Meanwhile please keep words like "cra*" and rudeness away. No need for that.

End of this unsolicited "discussion" please, it is embarrassing to have to explain such things to people with such vast claimed credentials, in public

Fine. But you may continue. As they said “It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt”.
(Frankly, no disrespect, but the stuff you posted is beyond idiotic (physics-wise) but hey, go ahead it is just what I think, you have a large fan base here, keep posting.)

No, I did not have the privilege of graduating from the same institution as your kind self AFAIK

Fine, I have no intention of mentioning any emails which we may or may not have engaged in so fine. I graduated from IIT Kanpur in late 60's.
Physics 101 grade IIRC was 50/100, the minimum to pass on "merit"
.
Fine. Mine was (in all exams of math and physics) 100/100 (it is sort of easy - all you have to do is to answer problems correctly)

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby sudeepj » 08 Apr 2019 02:49

arun wrote:
sudeepj wrote:As fun as it is for the jingo side of me, I wish the DRDO had not done such a detailed press conference. Showing the last minute kkv maneuvering, using technical descriptor words that can leak information about the guidance algorithms makes me feel uneasy.


Karan M wrote:Yes, I agree. The problem with DRDO is that lack of GOI support during the UPA era, when UPA used pliable journos like Coupta to target DRDO and push for imports, made it start giving out overtly detailed information in an effort to establish its credibility.


I take a contrary view. DRDO and the NSA, represented by DRDO Chairman Sathees Reddy and Deputy NSA Pankaj Saran are no neophytes with an incredible lack of self awareness of what is in the best interests of my country, India. If they have deemed fit to disclose some details about the ASAT Tests, it is good enough for me as a Resident Tax Paying Indian National to accept the information without second guessing the merits/demerits of disclosure of that information, as to do so would smack of poor taste.


Scientists are scientists.. They are not well versed in op sec. It used to be the same in the west, scientific establishments used to leak like a sieve to communists before some military types stepped in and tightened things up. How do you think ussr caught up so fast with the West in science and tech.

No other power has shown such images as drdo has. The Chinese didn't even announce their test, if I remember correctly. From the images shown, you can calculate the fov of the iir sensor, the guidance algorithm of the kkv, and can device counter measures.

This is the result of the constant doubting and even attacks that our scientists and pity are exposed to. Show us the proof of this.. Show us u r capable of doing that. We would do well to remember the old saying.. An elephants walk is not disturbed by dogs barking.

Perhaps there is another purpose in showing these images and we will find out in the coming days.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 03:02

Sudeep sadly true. The non stop attacks on DRDO have forced them to be more open with info.

Also, the one big issue in doing counter measures, even apart from the fact the DRDO ops weapon will have more changes for sure, is the weight penalty. For a 75kg payload sat for example, every kg wasted in carrying some kind of MAWS and then any extra chaff/flares etc, is wasted payload, which means the satellite sent up has a payload which performs that much worse.

We are imposing a cost even so, and of course all the Chinese sats already up there have no countermeasures to this system, and are anyhow vulnerable. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby brar_w » 08 Apr 2019 03:51

Singha wrote:the sm3 block IIA the fat 21" diameter model that is JV of raytheon and mitsubishi claims per this chart to be 600km capable.
the other variants are 200-300km
their anti ICBM play is here https://missilethreat.csis.org/defsys/gbi/


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=2341238#p2341238

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby nachiket » 08 Apr 2019 04:03

UlanBatori and AmberG, please stop responding to each other in this thread. Your fight is threatening to derail this thread. Put each other on the ignore list if you want and then continue engaging with others.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Amber G. » 08 Apr 2019 04:21

nachiket wrote:UlanBatori and AmberG, please stop responding to each other in this thread. Your fight is threatening to derail this thread. Put each other on the ignore list if you want and then continue engaging with others.


Agreed.

Folks - Unless the the question is directly addressed to me, or continuing/clarifying some old but *important* point, I am going back in lurker mode.

Sorry, UB was on already on my "ignore list" but somehow this slip occurred .. should have known better after Physics dhaga derailment.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Tanaji » 08 Apr 2019 04:54

AmberG,

Could you please provide your explanation of the physics behind ASATs as you disagree with UB?

TIA.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Apr 2019 07:33

Hey nachiketji, as mentioned clearly before, I have absolutely no interest in responding to or commenting on shrill OT nonsense, so kindly look elsewhere for the noise-sources. There is no lack of K-6 ball-throwing / orbital dynamics lessons on the web for anyone interested.
No interest in discussing tech detail of the particular gizmo either, as I have explained privately to ramana last week or so. Brarji and Dileepji and Singhaji can detail those, so can negi and Sridhar and ramana. More power to them.

All I have done in this thread is to try and explain some things to my own satisfaction.

My interest is why the Prime Minister of India chose the dramatic mode of announcement - and why the ASAT test was at that particular time.

Hope someone is interested in discussing that very important point for its military/strategic significance. It can be answered by reading the official DRDO releases with a clear brain and some memory.

- Was there a similar announcement when the BMD was first demonstrated?
- When the GSLV with Indian cryo engine first performed flawlessly?


Surely there was pride and the scientists and managers were called for congratulations and commendations, but the dramatic announcement keeping the whole nation on the verge of panic about nuclear war or stock market crash?

So we look carefully at what exactly was demonstrated. There is the answer to "Why Are They Giving Out All These Details?"

The message was to Pakis, and it was clearly that there is an existing BMD infrastructure, so don't even think of trying anything. Please guide me to where there is any announcement of the Paki IRBM test (they closed airspace citing an imminent test just before the ASAT announcement so they were heading for major chest-thumping along the Ghauri-Ghaznavi lines).

Instead of critiquing GOI wisdom in giving out "sensitive" info (half of which may be deliberately tweaked for all I know) perhaps people should think about the real message being conveyed.

Now add this tidbit: It is fairly well known that Dovalji was in fairly frequent contact with head of ISI during the past few weeks, to tell them about the birds bees and flying pigs in clear terms. I have a feeling that the ISI guy's bombast (no pun intended) about the IRBM was deflated by the message about the ASAT test.

- The revelation of the relative velocity, whose significance is what I was trying to explain, has a very clear message about capability to respond.
- The dissing of the previous "only IRBM-hitting capability" is much scarier.
- The 1000 km number also has some serious significance.
- And the revelation of the very fast maneuvering at terminal stage is most revealing of all.

These are what I tried to explain in simple terms.

It is a very carefully nuanced message, and I hope Pakis have good scientists explaining it to their netaship. I am sure Parveen Hoodbhuoy can figure it out.

BTW, has there been any response or comment from Cheen other than some inconsequential grumble? That should complete the picture. It's not about them (though it does draw a red line about future relations with them). Modi would not have gone on TV if it had been aimed at Cheen, no such dramatics warranted there.

Then please go on to read my points in prior post: what is the implication for TSP?
- F-16 shown to be inferior in 1-1 combat to Indian planes, even the old ones.
- Ability of PAF to penetrate even 1 km across LOC is not just doubtful, it is dismally remote.
- Accuracy of PAF standoff weapons seems to be all bogus, and it looks like their weapon-suppliers fixed it that way.

So that leaves them with nuclear weapon threats to make: Modi/DRDO now showed that:
- IRBMs already rendered obsolete by existing BMD infra.
- Now all Paki missiles shown to be covered by mobile ASAT infrastructure. I hope there is war-footing production and deployment of these.

Meanwhile India can attack at will inside, and hit targets with deadly accuracy.

If I were Paki my full attention would be focused on what blow is going to fall next: the submarine leg of their strategic triad is in for the next blow.

Are there already mobile ASAT launchers all along the coasts? How can they know? That truck shown by DRDO looked like a production version, doesn't it? Not a patched-up one-off prototype.

Given all these, if you were the Paki-In-Charge of defending the Yellow Sea or Eye Bee around Longewala, u just realized that u r a sitting pig. No nuke cover, no air cover, no missile cover, cheen not going to help, no UN ceasefire.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Apr 2019 07:53

Question to me is whether TSP will try a "Use 'em or lose 'em" soosai attack with missiles before the ABM/ ASAT infrastructure becomes impenetrable. This is a grave danger because 2 years from now their nuke/non-nuke/missile triad will be totally impotent.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 08:02

The S-400s will also add another layer of redundancy to the Indian BMD network with their high-mobility setup.

I doubt TSP will try a "use them or lose them" attack because because of things like this.
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/181412 ... -in-Lahore

LAHORE: Former chief of army staff General Raheel Sharif has been allotted 868 kanals and 10 marlas of land (about 90 acres) on Bedian Road Lahore, and not just 482 kanals, through the Border Area Committee, reliable sources have disclosed.

The total value of the allotted land is estimated at around Rs1.35 billion. Sources said that Raheel Sharif has been allotted 50 acres of land under his prerogative as a four-star general, and another 40 acres as the chief of army staff. The land is situated in Mauza Rukh Bathant, located along western side of BRB Canal, adjacent to Mauza Heear.

A property dealer told The News that after development the worth of this land would be about Rs2.5 billion. Another property dealer, however, said the worth of the land after development would be over Rs4 billion.


That's INR 700 - INR 2800 Crores of property. Now add up all the similar allotments to the Crore Commanders and assorted chamchas.

Will these Crore Commanders ever give that up by risking (shudder) an Indian nuclear attack?

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 08:04

I think any Indian counter strike should have all these nice lands clearly marked out as a high-priority target for some of our wayward Agnis or Prithvis etc.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby hnair » 08 Apr 2019 08:07

sudeepj wrote:That's an A5 cannister.. It says A 5 in devnagari right below bharat.


Dont know where you are going with this? I just loved the messaging with a big tube behind the current celebrity

Karan M, remember how khan certified each and every chinese advancement as "yeah, that actually happened" since 1970s? Including how some xyz panja-gon jernail saying "cheen did that difficult head-on ASAT collision" etc in 2006 etc. I used to wonder why cheen does not let out more official footage, when even Kim of NKorea shows his successes in a much better fashion to the world. It is not just that "kim needs the publicity for his govt, while PLA dont", because both are dependent on their strongman image in frnt of their own people. Answer has to be that they have a tacit agreement with Panja-gon to certify their achievements (and even semi-failures as wins), after showing the khanlanders a private presentation of the tests. Failures are asked to be suppressed. Once a while, some khanlander will think "this makes no sense" and leaks out a failure of some cheen tests. But very rare.

The average chinese people is enamored by western media and accolades and seem to trust the word of west. Same as quite a few Indians. So what better than to push back into China, these ceritified successes via western news outlets? The result is a double-win for PLA, since they dont have to show anything about any failures and their own claims in state media is corroborated.

So I would take this nice video about the presentation as a pro-active effort by DRDO: we dont wait for khan or anyone to certify our wins.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Apr 2019 08:17

In fact I think a nice, no-collateral-damage Spicing should be conducted on some of these crore-kamandu properties - just to hammer home the message of noodity. The rising smoke will be an inspiring sight to many Pakis. I think entire Karachi waterfront is owned by the PA jarnails.
A couple of mansions in LaHore could also be fricassed as a demo.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Apr 2019 08:25

Just as I thought. GoogleMullah shows no sign of any Paki IRBM test. I am sure there was one announced just b4 the ASAT news came out (somewhere on the Balakot / Mig-21 thread where ppl were monitoring NOTAMs), so it must have been delayed/cancelled. Message got through loud and clear to the dlagons running that mijjile test, they may have been recalled in disgust by Eleven. It would have been like putting up a 2017 calendar in April 2019.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Austin » 08 Apr 2019 10:35

DRDO Chairman's Full Press Conferene On Mission Shakti- India's First Anti Satellite Test


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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Austin » 08 Apr 2019 10:36

India will be the 3rd country in world after US . China to intercept satellite via HTK to a alt of 1000 km

Even Russia, Europe dont have such capability till date

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Prasad » 08 Apr 2019 11:31

Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:didnt she tongue lash them in AI2019 in a surprise outburst that left many shocked ?


Didn't tongue lash them, asked them to be more public with their achievements so everyone "knew what they were doing". That has some cons as well. Will give import dalals an even better look into what's available w/them beyond leaks from Delhi. So, great pep talk, but DRDO needs to have a process in place to reveal stuff but with adequate safeguards.

Karan & others,
Remember back in Feb, RM said DRDO needs to talk more?


Yes, but I hope that's done with a lot of consistency, and people dedicated to the task.

Frankly, DESIDOC, which is supposed to be DRDO's part time publication and PR wing is an absolute disgrace. They don't promote the organization well at all. And are mostly seat warmers who release magazines that could be surpassed in visuals, information presentation, by a bunch of 12th class kids with editing software. Its absolutely shameful because even as DRDO's scientists slave over such world-class tech., and their users appreciate it, DESIDOC does NOTHING to promote the organization or even show it optimally. Just look at the websites.


Karan, it was a tongue lashing. Most present saw it as that too but also acknowledged that she was right, grudgingly. I also heard that given all the restrictions on scientists from talking about their work, how to achieve this?

It shouldn't be up to these people who work on these projects to do that. It is for the higher ups to understand the game and do proper PR. Not the typical govt style PRO style functioning. This needs money and intent do it right and an institutional mechanism so that it doesn't vaporise as soon as that one good person retires. Anyway, OT for this thread.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Apr 2019 17:11

NASA has a big PR dept. USAF much more reticent, and all "configuration pics" shown are AFAIK "sanitized" and "cleared for public release". Artists' conceptions basically, except for carefully constructed Shows etc. The idea is to make ppl ****THINK**** they are getting the intricate detailed scoop where they can bring their vast expertise to bear, so that they can guffaw at lunchtime. That's why the Officers' Lunch Place is called a "Mess": result of seeing published Expert Anal-e-sys while stuffing with macaroni-cheese.
Same in Ulan Bator except it is horse-meat and yak-meat kebab here.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 17:24

Prasad wrote:Karan, it was a tongue lashing. Most present saw it as that too but also acknowledged that she was right, grudgingly. I also heard that given all the restrictions on scientists from talking about their work, how to achieve this?

It shouldn't be up to these people who work on these projects to do that. It is for the higher ups to understand the game and do proper PR. Not the typical govt style PRO style functioning. This needs money and intent do it right and an institutional mechanism so that it doesn't vaporise as soon as that one good person retires. Anyway, OT for this thread.


I saw a video of her making those remarks or similar ones at the conference, but defer to those who were there. But the problem as you say remains. If she is upset that they wont talk about what they do and wants them to turn the other way, it comes with far greater risks. Until and unless this is managed professionally.

I still believe India should not have revealed its BMD program till the nth moment, or even after it was inducted. Only services and select GOI guys needed to know. We would have had such an advantage. But Couptas and Pandits ran a propaganda campaign (and let's not forget their sidekicks at the time like Aroor) and VKS went public with the program, concerned in part it would be quietly cancelled. And we lost the first mover advantage. Otherwise, Paks entire blackmail strategy may have been hurt hard, because despite picking up humint about our plans, the scale would have been unknown to them.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Apr 2019 17:33

Karan Sir, I remember the 1st test came out of the blue in December 2006, media was going hammer and tongs and wanted to shut down DRDO, people like Suresh Kalmadi who had in the past tried to shut Down LCA Tejas had significant power, the PDV test came out of now where and some hyberbole on waste of taxpayer money evaporated overnight.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby kit » 08 Apr 2019 19:38

Karan M wrote:The S-400s will also add another layer of redundancy to the Indian BMD network with their high-mobility setup.

I doubt TSP will try a "use them or lose them" attack because because of things like this.
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/181412 ... -in-Lahore

That's INR 700 - INR 2800 Crores of property. Now add up all the similar allotments to the Crore Commanders and assorted chamchas.

Will these Crore Commanders ever give that up by risking (shudder) an Indian nuclear attack?


That Sir., is why the pakis have "full spectrum" deterrence :mrgreen: .. all enough they believe to protect their kanals :((

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Prasad » 08 Apr 2019 20:20

In fact her comments point to a deeper problem. No point putting it out there. If you're ever in blr & want to join a bunch of unimportant people for a glass of something cold, you know how to get in touch with, we could talk about it.

sudeepj
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby sudeepj » 08 Apr 2019 21:21

hnair wrote:
sudeepj wrote:That's an A5 cannister.. It says A 5 in devnagari right below bharat.


Dont know where you are going with this? I just loved the messaging with a big tube behind the current celebrity

...


Not going anywhere, it does read A 5, which is supposed to be a much larger missile than the ASAT. That is all.

hnair wrote:So I would take this nice video about the presentation as a pro-active effort by DRDO: we dont wait for khan or anyone to certify our wins.


That is certainly one perspective. Its very informative and as a Jingo, fun to watch.

Vips
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Vips » 09 Apr 2019 01:55

India’s ASAT test is wake-up call for norms of behavior in space.

The real angst of the weed smoking Brian Weeden is now clear:

There have been some attempts in international fora to discuss destabilizing actions in the space domain, but they have been limited in scope and results. The UN Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space agreed in June to 21 guidelines for the long-term sustainability of outer space, but these were broadly conceived and worded and very specifically were not intended to provide guidance on ASAT development, testing or usage. There were discussions in Geneva over the last year of a UN-supported Group of Governmental Experts (GGE), which included the United States, Russia, China and India among others that attempted to create a report on the on further practical measures for the prevention of an arms race in outer space. The GGE finished last month without reaching consensus and so there is no clear multilateral path to a solution at this time.

A big obstacle to progress is that there is a fundamental difference in approach toward space security and stability between the U.S. and its allies on the one hand and Russia, China, India, and most of the rest of the world on the other. The U.S. and its allies argue for the need to regulate/modify behavior on orbit, pointing out that due to the dual-use nature of space technology, it does not make sense to try to limit hardware. By contrast, Russia, China, and India argue for a more classic arms control approach that focuses on banning technology or hardware in space and excludes ground-based ASAT weapons.

The good news is that more countries than ever are concerned about this issue and engaged in trying to develop solutions. Recognizing that the actions of one can negatively affect the ability of all to use space, irresponsible actions have become the business of all space users, not just those states who may have the technical capacity to hold an ASAT test. Ironically, Mission Shakti may also mean India is more willing to now consider some sort of ASAT test ban that may help break the deadlock, although the international community should also consider whether it’s appropriate to reward India for their behavior with some sort of special status.


The heartburn is apparent here that India has barged into an exclusive club. He is also behaving as if a NPT like body for Space testing is already in place and as if its membership is already locked out.

sahay
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby sahay » 09 Apr 2019 02:04

He is welcome to get everyone else to enforce a moratorium on testing while India doesn't. There is no way that a test ban on ASATs can be effective without Indian approval.

UlanBatori
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Apr 2019 02:08

This from Trumpistan that has unilaterally walked out of all arms control agreements including the one on Space weapons? :rotfl:
I missed the WHOTUS jhapad to NASA. Could some kind person pls find and post it?

P.S. Since Raygun Reagan and Tom Clancy days there has been US capability to shoot down LEO sats. F-15 zooming to 100K feet was supposed to be the on-demand anywhere-in-the-world capability and the Orbital Systems Pegasus was IIRC developed specifically for that. Where were the "norms of behavior" then I wonder..

sahay
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby sahay » 09 Apr 2019 02:12

https://www.news18.com/news/india/under ... 91479.html

In a letter to ISRO Chairman K Sivan, NASA Administrator James Bridenstine said: "based on the guidance received from the White House", he looks forward to continuing to work with ISRO on a host of issues including human space flights.

"Recently, we sent you a letter indicating a suspension of activities under the NASA-ISRO Human Space Flight Working Group," he wrote.
From the April 4 letter, it appears that after the White House weighing in, the cooperation remains intact.

Cain Marko
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Cain Marko » 09 Apr 2019 02:39

UlanBatori wrote:The message was to Pakis, and it was clearly that there is an existing BMD infrastructure, so don't even think of trying anything.

Pleej to phorgive impertinent question but why not just conduct an ABM test then? Message would be a lot clearer no?

It is a very carefully nuanced message, and I hope Pakis have good scientists explaining it to their netaship. I am sure Parveen Hoodbhuoy can figure it out.

Pakis and nuance? Good scientists? To expect TSP establishment to understand that this was an underhanded way of showing ABM capability to castrate their mijjile seems convoluted.

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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Cain Marko » 09 Apr 2019 03:06

Amber G. wrote:
nachiket wrote:UlanBatori and AmberG, please stop responding to each other in this thread. Your fight is threatening to derail this thread. Put each other on the ignore list if you want and then continue engaging with others.


Agreed.

Folks - Unless the the question is directly addressed to me, or continuing/clarifying some old but *important* point, I am going back in lurker mode.

Sorry, UB was on already on my "ignore list" but somehow this slip occurred .. should have known better after Physics dhaga derailment.

Amberji, can you please explain in plainspeak if the ASAT test was more or less challenging than a BMD test? I ask because:

a) I was always under the impression that the latter is more difficult considering the possibility of maneuvering reentry vehicles but am not sure anymore
b) I want to understand the reasoning behind the hoopla created by Namo before announcing the result. Seemed to me that the standard format response via a PTI release could have done the trick. Was it some veiled message (that I surely didn't catch) or was it purely political showbaazi?

Indranil
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Re: Indian ASAT Test

Postby Indranil » 09 Apr 2019 04:42

I agree with Dr. Reddy that this kind of test cannot be hidden. So a press release would have been great. There was showmanship by Modi, no doubt. But give it to him. Elections are upon us. Other leaders have done worse.


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