Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Feb 2019 00:10

New Armoured Vehicles thread started with excellent reference info below.

Thanks to BRF Members --> Ramana and ParGha for all their help.

Mods: Please update list below, as and when a new milestone is reached or updates need to be added. Thank You.

Last Page of Previous Thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7051&start=1800

Last Page of Previous Thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6844&start=3520

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History of the Indian Army Armoured Corps

The formal history of the Indian Army Armoured Corps dates to 1941 and is nearly 80 years old. Prior to 1941, the unit was known as the Indian Armoured Corps and was part of the British Empire's Indian Army. The Corps celebrates May 01st as its Raising Day. The Indian Armoured Corps Centre & School is in Ahmednagar, Maharashtra.

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Armoured Corps Organization

There are a total of 67 Armoured Regiments in the Indian Army Armoured Corps. The distribution of tanks in an Armoured Regiment are ---> Operational Tanks + Training Tanks (fully operational during war) + Tanks for Mechanical & Attrition Reserves.

Indian Armoured Regiments are organized along this basis ---> Troop >>> Squadron >>> Regiment. Above that, everything is a combined-arms formation. Only special purpose squadrons (currently only the Presidential Bodyguard Cavalry on operational duties) have a Patrol under a Troop; they are usually jeep/truck/dismounted sub-units on deep recce missions (for example, as Pathfinders).

In an armoured tank regiment ---> a troop has 4 tanks, a squadron has 3 troops + 2 tanks @ Squadron HQ (14 tanks), a regiment has 3 Squadrons + 3 tanks @ Regimental HQ (45 tanks). Therefore, as per a general rule of thumb, there is a total of 45 tanks per armoured regiment. The Indian Army switched to this format in the 1980s for greater battlefield autonomy.

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Armoured Corps Strength

Main Battle Tanks
• Arjun Mk1: 124
• Arjun Mk1A: 118 (on order)
• Arjun Mk2: Unspecified
• T-72M1: 2,410
• T-90M: 1,330
• T-90S: 310

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History of the Mechanised Infantry Regiment

Ahmednagar is also home to the Mechanised Infantry Regimental Centre. The unit was raised in 1979 and the motto of the Regiment is Valour & Faith. Her war cry is Bolo Bharat Mata Ki Jai (Victory to Mother India).

The regimental insignia is a rifle bayonet mounted on a BMP-1, depicting the infantry and mechanised facets of the Regiment.

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Mechanised Infantry Regiment Organization

There are 27 battalions of the Mechanised Infantry Regiment, all with the BMP-1 and BMP-2 Infantry Combat Vehicles and the BTR-60 and BTR-70 Armoured Personnel Carriers.

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Mechanised Infantry Strength

Infantry Combat Vehicles
• BMP-2: 2,500

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Feb 2019 00:13

I will be adding more to this. Give me some time. Mods, please add to list - as you see fit - as it is not complete. All strength numbers are from wiki chacha. So please amend/advise if you have more up-to-date info.

The first post in this thread is only for reference based on open source information. I do not need to say this, but I will for the sake of clarity - no classified information please. Nobody cares, other than the enemy.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 20 Feb 2019 01:06

Rakesh ji, can you throw some light on where the BMP-2 fits in an Armoured Regiment? Are there recce troops within an Armd Reg? Or do they operate purely in Mechanized Infantry Regiment, who are then attached to an Armd Reg?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 20 Feb 2019 02:13

Based on what i recall from an old OrBat diagram of an Armoured Regiment/cavalry regiment, the recce squadrons are either BRDM or the tanks themselves. BMP's are strictly with Mech Inf regiment.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 20 Feb 2019 02:57

Just curious
Where is the Arjun thread please Saar

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Feb 2019 03:03

Moved to Trash Can. Please see the link in the first post. Please continue discussion of any armoured vehicle (including Arjun) in this thread.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Feb 2019 04:23

Bala Vignesh wrote:Based on what i recall from an old OrBat diagram of an Armoured Regiment/cavalry regiment, the recce squadrons are either BRDM or the tanks themselves. BMP's are strictly with Mech Inf regiment.

And the Brigade of the Guards as they have become mechanized.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Feb 2019 04:28

atreya wrote:Rakesh ji, can you throw some light on where the BMP-2 fits in an Armoured Regiment? Are there recce troops within an Armd Reg? Or do they operate purely in Mechanized Infantry Regiment, who are then attached to an Armd Reg?

Atreya, that is my fault. I am afraid I may have caused confusion.

As Bala Saar has pointed out....BMP-2s are strictly with the Mechanised Infantry and do NOT fit in an Armoured Regiment.

I have made the change in the first post. Please take a look.

With regards to your other questions, ParGha Sir or someone else more knowledgeable than me is best suited to answer them.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Feb 2019 04:39

Thread renamed to Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion to include the Armoured Corps and the Mechanised Infantry Regiment.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 20 Feb 2019 04:52

Thank you sir
Aligned

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Feb 2019 06:41

Mech Inf can be part of a Armd Bde and also not part of an Armd Bde.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 20 Feb 2019 07:42

As per the aforementioned diagram, an armored brigade invariably consists of at least 1 Mech Inf battalion. The number can go up 2 in some conditions. But invariably there will be an element of Mech Inf in all higher Armoured formations.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Feb 2019 08:30

Admiral ---

The Brigade of the Guards have also become mechanised.

So in effect the mechanised infantry strength is Mech Inf Regt plus the Brigade of the Guards.

mody · Post by **mody** » 22 Feb 2019 15:44

With the Arjun MK1A now cleared for production, I hope DRDO is working on improving the desi FSAPDS rounds.
There has been no news on this front for a while.

Maybe Rohitvats might have some info on this.

krishGo · Post by **krishGo** » 28 Feb 2019 03:03

From Aero India 19 - Check from 6:20 in the video

BEML is developing a new 1500 hp engine to power "the main battle tank"

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Feb 2019 04:26

mody wrote:With the Arjun MK1A now cleared for production, I hope DRDO is working on improving the desi FSAPDS rounds.
There has been no news on this front for a while.

Maybe Rohitvats might have some info on this.

Mk2 (FSAPDS) has cleared trials, for both 120mm and 125mm. Further improvement is in progress.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 28 Feb 2019 23:49

The effects of a Israeli laser guided steel penetrating phosphorous filled hand held rocket

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5cg57z9100

Quite spectacular very detremental to enemys war fighting physcic

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Mar 2019 05:40

Eric Leiderman wrote:The effects of a Israeli laser guided steel penetrating phosphorous filled hand held rocket

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5cg57z9100

Quite spectacular very detremental to enemys war fighting physcic

Pretty sure that's an old British test.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 01 Mar 2019 11:00

It is supposedly happened in Syria

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Mar 2019 16:13

Eric Leiderman wrote:It is supposedly happened in Syria

no it didn't.
this video was uploaded a year before the one you have book marked.

and the target tank was un-manned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-9G1R8wO5w

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 01 Apr 2019 13:06

Army Orders 352 Arjun MKII
https://twitter.com/elmihiro/status/111 ... 91520?s=12

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 01 Apr 2019 13:41

parshuram wrote:Army Orders 352 Arjun MKII
https://twitter.com/elmihiro/status/111 ... 91520?s=12

April Fools ??? or for real ??

-M

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 01 Apr 2019 13:48

that was april fool tweet,
and image was of something else as well

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 02 Apr 2019 03:17

Khalsa wrote:
Eric Leiderman wrote:The effects of a Israeli laser guided steel penetrating phosphorous filled hand held rocket

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5cg57z9100

Quite spectacular very detremental to enemys war fighting physcic
Pretty sure that's an old British test.

No, it´s a Swedish BILL 2 ATGM missile agianst a Strv81 (Brittish-made Centurion) during a live fire drill in the early/midst-90s. I know because I was one of the first to post it on youtube some 25 years ago...

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 09 Apr 2019 01:16

India’s Cabinet Committee on Security approves procurement of 464 T-90MS tanks.

India's Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has approved the INR134.48 billion (USD1.93 billion) procurement of 464 Russian-made T-90MS main battle tanks (MBTs) for the Indian Army (IA).

Official sources told Jane's that the move by the CCS, which convened in early April and is headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, is the penultimate step in the process of acquiring the MBTs and will be followed by the signing of a contract between India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) and Russia's arms export agency, Rosoboronexport, during the next few months.

The MoD's Defence Acquisition Council approved the procurement of the tanks in November 2016.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Apr 2019 02:11

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1114872634066345984 ----> OF Medak is also working on what it will offer as an entry in the Indian Army's Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) competition. They intend to have their prototype ready by December 2019. Fabrication work on the same is currently underway.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1114885113026732032 ---> The Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) design from Ordnance Factory Medak will have an unmanned turret and an active protection system. Importantly, its hull will have composite armour, with the expectation of better protection at a lower than otherwise weight penalty.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1114888471913459714 ---> Ordnance Factory Medak is also working on equipping MPVs with drones that can be carried and launched by the vehicle to increase situational awareness.. Work on 'see through armour' is also underway.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1114889605046661120 ---> To understand what 'See Through Armour' is take a look at this video on Elbit's IronVision.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Apr 2019 02:12

Does anyone know what this upgrade entails?

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1114871697159516165 ---> Ordnance Factory Medak says that it has achieved 98% indigenous content levels (by value) in the production of BMP-2/2K Infantry Combat Vehicles (ICV). Enclosing an image of an upgraded BMP-2 ICV from OF Medak.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1115112483704930304 ----> Here's another picture of the upgraded BMP-2 from Ordnance Factory Medak, with all the new bells and whistles installed and clearly visible.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1115116230334078976 ---> The new bells and whistles have come from Bharat Electronics Limited.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1115140192162045953 ---> The significance of these Indian upgrade packages for old Soviet/Russian equipment goes beyond the issue of keeping the Indian military contemporary. These same packages are offered to Indian allies such as Vietnam, etc. and can increase New Delhi's influence.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1115128514015981568 ---> In 2018, the Indian Army received the first units of 100 percent indigenized versions of the following:

1. V92S2 engine that powers the T-90 Bhisma Tank

2. V-46-6 engine that powers the T-72 Ajeya Tank

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1115125863979184129 ---> The good part about India's Russian origin armoured pool is that the diesel engines powering these beasts have now been indigenized in terms of components.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 09 Apr 2019 02:19

Vips wrote:India’s Cabinet Committee on Security approves procurement of 464 T-90MS tanks.

Interesting. What is the role of a T-90 in today's (post-Syria) battlespace? Can they survive in a space infested with TGMs and attack helicopters, not to mention air-launched guided weapons? I was thinking of the Ukraine Ukbapzi experience too. The other side is: do infantry still do any good dug into trenches, instead of shoot-n-scoot with ATGMs?

400+ sounds like chai in RYK. Or a picnic through Muzzafarabad Parking Lot.

gpurewal · Post by **gpurewal** » 09 Apr 2019 02:37

UlanBatori wrote:
Vips wrote:India’s Cabinet Committee on Security approves procurement of 464 T-90MS tanks.
Interesting. What is the role of a T-90 in today's (post-Syria) battlespace? Can they survive in a space infested with TGMs and attack helicopters, not to mention air-launched guided weapons? I was thinking of the Ukraine Ukbapzi experience too. The other side is: do infantry still do any good dug into trenches, instead of shoot-n-scoot with ATGMs?

400+ sounds like chai in RYK. Or a picnic through Muzzafarabad Parking Lot.

The predecessor thread(s) stated the the T-90MS was for the securing Chinese Border (Himalaya's?). Guess they are light enough to be deployed in the mountains and be used in the Tibetan plains should the need arise.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2019 14:18

UlanBatori wrote:
Vips wrote:India’s Cabinet Committee on Security approves procurement of 464 T-90MS tanks.
Interesting. What is the role of a T-90 in today's (post-Syria) battlespace? Can they survive in a space infested with TGMs and attack helicopters, not to mention air-launched guided weapons? I was thinking of the Ukraine Ukbapzi experience too. The other side is: do infantry still do any good dug into trenches, instead of shoot-n-scoot with ATGMs?

400+ sounds like chai in RYK. Or a picnic through Muzzafarabad Parking Lot.

That is the Eternal Dilemma for all Tank walas since ATGM and Chopper were invented Tanks verus ATGM verus Attack Chopper.

What syria thought was if you have a better strategy tactically and over all and air superiority then you can minimise the damage even in the presense of ATGMS and Lane to Lane Urban combat.

If you have bad fighting strategy then even advantage of air power you will loose even with Advanced Weapons like Yemen Conflict has shown with Western Tanks like Lecrec , Abrams , modern APC deployed by Saudi , UAE etc they were still defeated by those Yemeni Ground Jihadis using 2nd generation weapon.

Plus tactically you need APS on all tanks much like you need RWR/MAWS on all aircraft on battle theater other comforts like AC , APU and NBC protection is needed as well.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 09 Apr 2019 17:20

Himalayas application minimizes danger from Attack Helicopters: they can barely fly there. But in the desert that is a huge thing. OTOH in Himalayas ATGM is a huge menace: ppl sitting on mountainsides have the advantage.

My wonder at the Himalayan application is how they get the engines to perform well enough to push these behemoths up and down at such altitudes. Otherwise they are good mobile shelters+fortresses. Those Syrian/Russian cages seem to work decently against ATGMs (but add still more weight). But beyond that, "T-90" todin may be a very different animal from long ago, with all the bells&whistles you mentioned. Engine power is still the decider there. I guess tanks with caterpillar tread is a great way to get a huge artillery barrage arranged on a ridge, IF the air menace can be controlled.

Have you heard about a gizmo that you drop by parachute - has microphones to pick up engine noise, and then starts rocket engines to power itself towards those - Reach Out & Touch Someone. I know it was considered for use/ used in Afghanistan. If a passing plane drops 100 of those, it's all over for a tank division.

VikramA · Post by **VikramA** » 09 Apr 2019 20:15

RT reporting CCS cleared 464 T-90MS tanks for IA

India greenlights purchase of more Russian T-90 battle tanks – Moscow
https://www.rt.com/news/455949-india-russia-t90-tanks/

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2019 03:05

IBG, Pakistan counter.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_ ... video.html

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 10 Apr 2019 03:15

Maybe one should re-start the Cold Start thread with mobile "ASATs" rendering the Pak missile threat to the Matrubhoomi moot. Short-range missiles are still a problem on the way to RYK; otherwise clear paths to Free Balochistan and Free Pakhtoonistan seem to be well within reach.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2019 03:18

SRBMs will be handled by:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

Boost to Army's air power; to get medium range missile by 2020

The MRSAM system will be capable of shooting down enemy ballistic missiles, aircraft, helicopters, drones, surveillance aircraft and AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control Systems) aircraft, the official said on condition of anonymity as he is not authorised to speak to the media.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 10 Apr 2019 03:29

said on condition of anonymity as he is not authorised to speak to the media.

The Holy Mantra that makes all UBCN reports 400% re-lie-able neuj (just kidding)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2019 03:32

Nobody in India is authorized to speak to the media, so they speak to the media. We are like this wonlee.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Apr 2019 04:09

UlanBatori wrote:Maybe one should re-start the Cold Start thread with mobile "ASATs" rendering the Pak missile threat to the Matrubhoomi moot. Short-range missiles are still a problem on the way to RYK; otherwise clear paths to Free Balochistan and Free Pakhtoonistan seem to be well within reach.

Which missiles? All they carry is flowers. Sadly dried as India stole their water.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Apr 2019 04:41

https://twitter.com/defencealerts/statu ... 3467748352 ---> Defence-tech start-up Big Bang Boom Solutions has bagged a Rs 1.5 crore grant for winning the 'See Through Armor' challenge by the Ministry of Defence under iDEX. The win also entitles the start-up to a chance to co-develop the solution along with the Indian Army.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Apr 2019 18:14

With the latest purchase of 464 T-90 MS tanks, the total number of T-90 tanks will go beyond 2,000 (2,104 to be precise). If my memory serves me right, we had about the same number of T-72 in service with the army. To this, you can add few hundred T-55 which are likely to be in service with Corps of Engineers.

I remember reading an article by Lt General Panag once which talked about IA looking for 97 armored regiments and 70 Mechanized Infantry Battalions. With 4,000+ T-90, T-72 CIA and Arjun, I think we're in the range of 69-70 Armored Regiments. BTW, from an old article by Ajai Shukla, we know that IA was looking at 58 tanks per Arjun Regiment - 45 active and balance 13 tanks in reserve.

If you do the math, one realizes that IA maintains almost 20 regiment worth tanks in reserve! That's equivalent to 6+ independent armored brigades or 03 armored divisions.

Pakistan Army on the other hand inflates the number of armored regiments and armored brigades by having not only slightly smaller armored regiments but very low reserves and much smaller armored brigades.

There is considerable scope for rationalization of our armored holdings.