Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Austin » 09 Apr 2019 18:35

Hi Lo Trajectory.

Seems DRDO has already tested LACM variant of Brahmos to 450 km , 2 years back .........so a higher speed M 4.5 variant will certainly give it a 550 km plus range

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 08--2.html

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 09 Apr 2019 18:50

This will permit shots on peshawar sargogha quetta and jacobabad where the paki f16 force is based well behind the front

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 09 Apr 2019 20:04

negi wrote:Brahmos is a pretty beefy missile no point doing this 300-400 and then 500 extensions, slap on it a thick booster that still keep it ship deployable and extract a range of around 1500 km where initial phase remains ballistic and we lob it at high altitude and it dives into the ramjet phase . It's a better way to package the missile where the same missile without booster stage works for 300-400 km range and with a solid booster can engage targets at 1000 km or above range . If a system has to be deployed in numbers it should be robust and economically viable. We have enough prowess with SRBs .

Looks like missile making can be like make you own style pizza.

Beg to ask how the aluminium body Brohmos survive atmosphere reentry àfter the bellistic flight?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 09 Apr 2019 20:13

Austin wrote:It is clear now that the range increase to 500 + km is being achieved via increase in speed from M 2.8 to 4.5

So a roughly 40 % increase in speed should translate to 40 % increase in range from 400 to 550 km ?

The higher speed Brohmos will have better ISP compared to the M2.8 ?

Brahmos always had longer range, but to circumvent 4 letter shittybitty (mtcr) the advertised range was made complient, with nod nod wink wink.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 09 Apr 2019 21:04

perhaps the famous VLS plug of Lada class will be inserted to store more fuel :)

thats the only way I see it happen unless its a engine change or the previous range was just a SW limiter show . a ramjet has anyway no moving parts, so its not like some better compressors or hot section materials will make a play unlike fighter engines.

a air breathing mach4.5 is approaching the low end of scramjet territory

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudeepj » 09 Apr 2019 21:36

Austin wrote:Hi Lo Trajectory.

Seems DRDO has already tested LACM variant of Brahmos to 450 km , 2 years back .........so a higher speed M 4.5 variant will certainly give it a 550 km plus range

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 08--2.html


How was the extended range achieved.. report says this:

“The strike range was enhanced only with better internal systems including fuel management. There was no change in other dimensions,” informed an official associated with the project.


To me it looks like they reduced the speed somewhat, and added more light weight internal components. May be some fuel proportioning to shift the CG and make the missile more aerodynamic? Only gyanis know.. Rest of us can guess. :-)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby negi » 09 Apr 2019 23:44

Haridas wrote:Looks like missile making can be like make you own style pizza.
Beg to ask how the aluminium body Brohmos survive atmosphere reentry àfter the bellistic flight?

Pizza making is also an art not many can make a good one , anyways what is harder way to extend range ; by making an exotic engine or go ballistic for initial phase of the trajectory ? Citing Aluminium body as a constraint is like putting cart before the horse , my point was simple i.e. by making a Mach ~3 missile go say Mach 4-5 will get you only so much benefit as against making same Mach ~3 missile go over 1k KM and effort required to achieve the two is significantly different we have capability to achieve the latter , going ballistic in initial phase and allowing missile to mostly follow a high to lo path in end phase also allows you to carry a heavier warhead , classic case in point is air launched Brahmos carries a ~300 kg warhead and land launched one ~200 kg. Let's not kid ourselves it is not a cheap missile and that's why Russians initially fielded it in anti shipping role for warships are a priced kill , using such exotic missile to lob 200 kg warhead on land within ~300 km will allow you to strike only so many prized targets that are exposed (remember Brahmos does not leverage top attack profile in end game for the speed will be compromised and prized land targets will mostly be bunkers that are recessed ). I never said that hypersonic Brahmos was bad , all I was saying is it's already a big missile for the amount of warhead it carries and it's range (it's niche i.e. better suited for Ashm role) and most importantly unlike Russia our adversaries do not have capability to defeat it , however imho if we could extend it's range beyond 1k km we would be talking a completely different game , idea to slap on a first stage SRB was to simply get there easily and without adding complexity , for an argument's sake we have air launched Brahmos it means it is already qualified to be launched from somewhere around 20-50k feet altitude , re-entry is needed in a purely ballistic trajectory and I don't wish to split hairs here for I suggested something as an idea and idea will be feasible or not depending on genuine engineering challenges , obviously I did not crunch numbers to verify what velocity will aluminium will be able to withstand , may be combination of ablative treatment in fore section and following a depressed trajectory will do the job ? Or worse critical fuselage sections that are made of aluminium will have to be replaced again none of these areas are unchartered for us , building a hypersonic engine is un-chartered territory on top of that what does it buy us ? 100-200 km additional range ? Where as going ballistic in initial phase gets you a range that brings Chinese key installations within the range now that's a game changer.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Thakur_B » 11 Apr 2019 09:28

Has there been any analysis of prospective production capacity of new missiles and munitions being developed by ARDE and other labs?

In my opinion (which are simply out of my Musharraf) the following should be the realistic production capabilities:

Astra: The initial production should be around 50 units PA till it stabilises around 200 PA in 4-5 years. Expected orders in the range of ~1200 units. Main limitations in ramping up production numbers: seeker production, new type of propellant different from other missiles, actuators, GPS/INS systems.

SAAW: Initial production up to 50 units PA, max production upto 300 units PA. Overqll numbers ~ 300. Main limitations: GPS/INS systems.

Nag: max 100 units PA and expected to remain low in numbers for several years. Overall orders ~1000. Prohibitively expensive seekers and lack of Indian FPA. Budgetary constraints and low orders will plague production.

Man portable Nag: same limitations as Nag. Overall orders ~3000. I do not see production ever in the scale required.

Garuda / Garuthma : Initial production numbers of ~200 PA, may get scaled up to ~ 800 PA. Overall requirements of ~10000 units. This will become our mainstay and probably the first smart munition to attain scale of production.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 11 Apr 2019 10:58

Guys a nube sawal.

Does anyone have a definitive picture of Garuda / guruthama missile. A Google search shows a whole lot of different missile types that I know to be not Garuda.

Please help.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Austin » 11 Apr 2019 12:19

Just a question here if any one can answer.

Why does Brahmos now need 300 kg warhead to do its job considering its KE is 7x times more compared to a subsonic missile much less a glide bomb.

Now we have seen video of of GBU-39 which is unpowered glide bomb with Warhead between 16 and 64 kg depend on variant. But we have seen it does considerable damage even to Hardened PEN.

Can we reduce Warhead from 300 kg to like 50 or 100kg and replace it with more fuel to give longer legs.

Considering its 7x Kinetic Energy and Zero CEP it can still do considerable damage to any target ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby RKumar » 11 Apr 2019 13:17

Austin sir, my guess we will fire either only for high value targets or in panic to low value targets, in both cases we want to ensure it does its job properly with zero leftover of the missile and target. So it is better not to reduce the taste of masalas for more servings :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby MeshaVishwas » 12 Apr 2019 10:59

IAF to get Astra Air-to-Air Missiles by end of 2019

https://idrw.org/iaf-to-get-astra-air-to-air-missiles-by-end-of-2019/
Unreliable source

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 12 Apr 2019 20:37

negi wrote:Pizza making is also an art not many can make a good one , anyways what is harder way to extend range ; by making an exotic engine or go ballistic for initial phase of the trajectory ? Citing Aluminium body as a constraint is like putting cart before the horse , my point was simple i.e. by making a Mach ~3 missile go say Mach 4-5 will get you only so much benefit as against making same Mach ~3 missile go over 1k KM and effort required to achieve the two is significantly different we have capability to achieve the latter , going ballistic in initial phase and allowing missile to mostly follow a high to lo path in end phase also allows you to carry a heavier warhead , classic case in point is air launched Brahmos carries a ~300 kg warhead and land launched one ~200 kg. Let's not kid ourselves it is not a cheap missile and that's why Russians initially fielded it in anti shipping role for warships are a priced kill , using such exotic missile to lob 200 kg warhead on land within ~300 km will allow you to strike only so many prized targets that are exposed (remember Brahmos does not leverage top attack profile in end game for the speed will be compromised and prized land targets will mostly be bunkers that are recessed ). I never said that hypersonic Brahmos was bad , all I was saying is it's already a big missile for the amount of warhead it carries and it's range (it's niche i.e. better suited for Ashm role) and most importantly unlike Russia our adversaries do not have capability to defeat it , however imho if we could extend it's range beyond 1k km we would be talking a completely different game , idea to slap on a first stage SRB was to simply get there easily and without adding complexity , for an argument's sake we have air launched Brahmos it means it is already qualified to be launched from somewhere around 20-50k feet altitude , re-entry is needed in a purely ballistic trajectory and I don't wish to split hairs here for I suggested something as an idea and idea will be feasible or not depending on genuine engineering challenges , obviously I did not crunch numbers to verify what velocity will aluminium will be able to withstand , may be combination of ablative treatment in fore section and following a depressed trajectory will do the job ? Or worse critical fuselage sections that are made of aluminium will have to be replaced again none of these areas are unchartered for us , building a hypersonic engine is un-chartered territory on top of that what does it buy us ? 100-200 km additional range ? Where as going ballistic in initial phase gets you a range that brings Chinese key installations within the range now that's a game changer.

The idea seems more like flight of fancy to slap a SRB on Brahmos to increase its range. As hakim Shiv used to say if my aunt had penis she will be my uncle.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 12 Apr 2019 20:54

Austin wrote:Just a question here if any one can answer.

Why does Brahmos now need 300 kg warhead to do its job considering its KE is 7x times more compared to a subsonic missile much less a glide bomb.

Now we have seen video of of GBU-39 which is unpowered glide bomb with Warhead between 16 and 64 kg depend on variant. But we have seen it does considerable damage even to Hardened PEN.

Can we reduce Warhead from 300 kg to like 50 or 100kg and replace it with more fuel to give longer legs.

Considering its 7x Kinetic Energy and Zero CEP it can still do considerable damage to any target ?

Warhead is needed to increase overall blast radius against ground based target and when used against ships the larger blast radius could spread shrapnel out further and damage the ships equipment even if point defense system shoots the missile down few hundred meters away.

The ability to increase range with flight profile is nothing new most Ashm in general have 2x-3x the quoted max range primarily because of their lo-lo profile (for example Iraq was able to use Silkworm missiles at ranges over 200 km to strike land based targets). Even JSM is reported have range over 500 km in hi-hi-lo profile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Austin » 12 Apr 2019 21:30

Lets say against ship its perhaps a valid argument because a larger ship like Destroyer of over 7000 T a larger blast would help to create damage over larger area compared to a missile boat or corvette.

But against Land Target a 100 kg HE should be good enough to take out any targets when you add the 6x plus KE impact of Brahmos on the target.

Even GBU-39 or a winged glider which is slow and carry not more than 16 to 64 kg creates huge impact with almost very little KE much less than subsonic missile as they are unpowered

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 12 Apr 2019 22:53

Missile warheads and performance are modeled based on the target set that they are intended to be used against so only comparisons to its effectiveness (lethality) against that intended target set is the appropriate measure and not its comparisons to a different weapon or glide munition. What Brahmos would have to determine is the reduced effectiveness against the target set that the original weapon was designed to defeat or different targets if those have changed for future variants. If it can manage to do that within the bounds that the operators are comfortable with then they can reduce the warhead size. If not then different trades would need to be looked at. Even weapons that appear to be in the same "class" as each other can be optimized around very different user-defined target sets which then dictate their warhead size and other performance parameters. We see this dynamic play out in cruise missiles as well which have multiple intended uses (compare JSM/NSM to JASSM/LRASM for example) or even ballistic missiles like TACMS and PrSM vs Iskander for example.
Last edited by brar_w on 12 Apr 2019 23:16, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 12 Apr 2019 23:05

https://twitter.com/ArpanSantra6/status ... 7503460353 ---> First 50 Astra Mk-1 to be delivered by year end. IAF to place order of more than 500 Astra for Tejas, Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000-5 Mk-2, Rafale, Mig-29K/UPG.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby RajD » 15 Apr 2019 12:19

Alert...
Has there been a latest news on Nirbhay test, Gurus?
Anantha Krishnan just tweeted to remain on standby on updates of the test results.
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/11 ... 2466611201

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 15 Apr 2019 12:55

Hemant Kumar Rout also tweeted same.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 15 Apr 2019 13:03

ANI

Verified account

@ANI
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Today India's 1,000 km strike range sub-sonic cruise missile 'Nirbhay' was successfully test fired off the coast of Odisha.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Sagrawal » 15 Apr 2019 13:03

Babaji tweeted Nirbhaya tested successfully.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 15 Apr 2019 13:04

I hope as per previous reports this was with Manik engine

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 15 Apr 2019 13:51

Err Silence on Brf, now Nirbhay tests are like Prithvi tests.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 15 Apr 2019 14:12

Even several Chowkidars are on teetar about the Nirbhay test!

Seems like successful test to total of 600kms. It covered waypoints as low as 5m to max 2.5 km altitude

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 15 Apr 2019 14:19

Aditya_V wrote:Err Silence on Brf, now Nirbhay tests are like Prithvi tests.



Not quite, I am quite excited by this test.

Let's hope first of many.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 15 Apr 2019 14:36

Hope everything goes naarmal from now on.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Narad » 15 Apr 2019 14:43

As per news reports this was the last development trial of the missile. Maybe the missile ie ready for production.
This particular test was designed to check flight at low altitudes.

https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/india-t ... -in-april/

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 15 Apr 2019 14:43

JTull wrote:Even several Chowkidars are on teetar about the Nirbhay test!

Seems like successful test to total of 600kms. It covered waypoints as low as 5m to max 2.5 km altitude


yeah finally a low profile terrain hugging test to probably test the sensors. tara e taqbeer!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby suryag » 15 Apr 2019 14:45

naar - e - taqbeer ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby manjgu » 15 Apr 2019 14:56

no mention of test on timesofindia...etc

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sum » 15 Apr 2019 14:58

Singha wrote:ANI

Verified account

@ANI
Follow Follow @ANI
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Today India's 1,000 km strike range sub-sonic cruise missile 'Nirbhay' was successfully test fired off the coast of Odisha.

AoA!!!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 15 Apr 2019 15:05

.poof..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby a_bharat » 15 Apr 2019 15:24

Noob question: would Nirbhay be suitable for Balakot type of operation (ignoring things like escalation ladder, etc)? Cost wise, how does it compare to sending a bunch of planes as done for Balakot?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 15 Apr 2019 15:27

Once it is proved reliable, would be much better than sending Manned aircraft.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby abhijitm » 15 Apr 2019 15:56

AK phyrrrrrrrre

I am doing nagin dance

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby abhijitm » 15 Apr 2019 16:00

which engine did it use? any idea? was it manik?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sum » 15 Apr 2019 16:17

Anantha Krishnan M
@writetake

Mil scientists confirm that during today's launch the missile covered way-points as low as 5 m to max 2.5 km. (Please note this is not range.)#Nirbhay@akananth

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 15 Apr 2019 16:21

5m is sea skimming mode.....over land the thawks and kalibers we see going around seem to fly at altitude around 50-100m

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ashthor » 15 Apr 2019 16:33

Today's image
Image

NGL 06, is it test no 6?

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/11 ... 4664242176

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prabu » 15 Apr 2019 16:45

Nirbhay is a long range, all-weather missile that can be launched from multiple platforms.
1,000 km strike range sub-sonic cruise missile Nirbhay successfully test-fired :D


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