Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Apr 2019 16:24

BIAL has apparently reached the 33 million mark exhibiting 25% yoy growth.
design capacity of the T1ext was around 26 million iirc.
UAF has been raised by 20% to cover rapid ongoing expansion work.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3880
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 23 Apr 2019 16:53

^^^ 25% YoY. Okay not every airport will be at that level but even half of that is immense.

Companies who fail in a time like this don't deserve to survive. With this kind of organic growth the margin for error is as wide as it is ever going to get.

Unless you feed at the public till like AI, you really can't be in better times as an airline.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Apr 2019 18:38

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 910296.ece

As passenger traffic continues to grow exponentially, BIAL – operator of the BLR Airport – has undertaken a massive Rs 13,000-crore capacity expansion to cater to the long-term demands of the aviation market in India.

This includes the first-phase construction of a 255,000-square meters Terminal II, an advanced Cat-IIIB Code-F Capable Runway and landside expansion, which, once ready will give the airport a substantial capacity boost.

Until the first phase of the new terminal is ready for operations in 2021, BIAL will continue to make various technology enhancements and innovations to ease congestion and travel through the Airport seamless.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Apr 2019 18:40

the current apt only has some 15 aerobridges... rest are moved by buses slowly to parking stands. things could be much faster if all flights could dock into aerobridges as it does for better airports with long "arms" stretching out from a central security cum shop/eat area.

Image

the red earth on far side of pic is apron area infront of T2. to the right of pic the new parallel runway is coming up.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Apr 2019 18:45

Image

they have gone for a changi type leafy interior

Image

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3040
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Apr 2019 19:42

chola wrote:^^^ 25% YoY. Okay not every airport will be at that level but even half of that is immense.

Companies who fail in a time like this don't deserve to survive. With this kind of organic growth the margin for error is as wide as it is ever going to get.

Unless you feed at the public till like AI, you really can't be in better times as an airline.

exactly..oil prices are low, demand is growing, not competition like in the days of Deccan and air sahara. Then why they cant sustain? There is something very fishy going on. Perhaps their failure will open up the misdeeds like ILFS

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20568
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 23 Apr 2019 20:38

ArjunPandit wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ 25% YoY. Okay not every airport will be at that level but even half of that is immense.

Companies who fail in a time like this don't deserve to survive. With this kind of organic growth the margin for error is as wide as it is ever going to get.

Unless you feed at the public till like AI, you really can't be in better times as an airline.

exactly..oil prices are low, demand is growing, not competition like in the days of Deccan and air sahara. Then why they cant sustain? There is something very fishy going on. Perhaps their failure will open up the misdeeds like ILFS


low international oil prices do not always translate to low prices for aviation fuel on the ground in India. Different states tax aviation fuel at different rates and all these tax rates are quite high.

The high fuel prices, as well as the low ticket prices, is a double whammy for most airlines and also the pilots unions and other unions are always pushing for higher wages and perks. Almost all airline expenditure is calculated in USD so the exchange rate is crucial.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3040
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Apr 2019 21:07

but chetak sir wont are the tax rates variable or constant, like for petrol they change if prices shoot a lot else taxes should move in proportion to the base rate? am i missing out anything? Fuel prices are not exactly highest like 2008, 2011 or 2014

Image

they have endured far worse in 2008 with low travel and much higher prices. I am trying to identify what caused jet to fail. from the group here..

mmasand
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 19 May 2009 23:46

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby mmasand » 23 Apr 2019 21:49

Arjun, if you read their financial statements in the past 5-6 years, one can see a steady decline in debt servicing. Their market share significantly shrunk in the last 3-4 years as the consumer became more price elastic. A flight that sells all seats isn't necessarily profitable, the yield per pax is what makes money. As LCC's gained more slots internationally particularly the GCC, Jet started losing out and had to drop fares which meant cutting into their margins. Their employee to aircraft ratio was the highest after AI, which too had made amends in 2015 from 300:1 down to 102:1. Add to this the pricing of slots for the US and EU destinations.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20568
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 23 Apr 2019 22:32

@ArjunPandit ji

If you look at the rates for travel by bus in the UK for example, for comparable distances you are paying about 8-10 times the rates that you would pay in India.

The Volvos and Scania and the Mercedes buses that operators in India use for long distance travel are as good if not better than the buses that the UK operators use.

Granted that diesel fuel may be a tad more expensive in the UK, but still, why are the UK rates so high?? After all, these buses all give about 3-4 kmpl at best, whether here or there.

So is the case with rail travel. and air travel and while fares may not be 8-10 times the Indian prices, (they are often more) but still, they are way, way up there.

I don't give a rats about their cost of living. Just making a very basic and simplistic apple to apple comparison.

And yet, the rail, bus and other services in the UK are running at a loss more often than not, whereas, Indian long distance bus operators are usually crorepatis. Indian railways is a social enterprise and not actually run as a true blue commercial enterprise. Indian commercial air carriers cannot sustain such low fares, high taxes and still survive commercially with any degree of confidence or a stable outlook to the future.

Air travel is not a luxury but a force multiplier for the economy. Just like cell phones and cell networks add tangible points to the actual GDP and boost it by easing, facilitating and connecting commerce, industry, trade and services, a similar function is performed by airlines, rail and road networks.

Airlines should be counted and taxed as an essential service and not a luxury service meant only for the rich.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3880
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 24 Apr 2019 05:06

chetak wrote:
Air travel is not a luxury but a force multiplier for the economy. Just like cell phones and cell networks add tangible points to the actual GDP and boost it by easing, facilitating and connecting commerce, industry, trade and services, a similar function is performed by airlines, rail and road networks.

Airlines should be counted and taxed as an essential service and not a luxury service meant only for the rich.


That says it all.

I hope someone with power reads this.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23385
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Austin » 24 Apr 2019 09:51

What is the reason for having a small shark fin like thing besides the engine ? Do they have any aerodynamic function ?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D44xJEPUcAE8nc1.jpg:large

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3880
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chola » 24 Apr 2019 11:57

A trick Cheen is using to encourage use of locally made or assembled aircraft.

https://menafn.com/1098395495/China-expands-support-for-its-aviation

(MENAFN) Civil aviation authorities said China has expanded the support range of local airplane models from seven to 13, to ease industry growth and bring more benefits to passengers.

A total of 13 aircraft models, including the China-developed ARJ21-700 and MA60 and imported CRJ-900, have been added into the support range.

Passengers of these airplane models on domestic air routes do not need to pay for the civil aviation development fund, which is a government fund charged to air passengers and operators.


mmasand
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 19 May 2009 23:46

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby mmasand » 24 Apr 2019 19:05

Austin wrote:What is the reason for having a small shark fin like thing besides the engine ? Do they have any aerodynamic function ?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D44xJEPUcAE8nc1.jpg:large


That's a nacelle streak, it helps reduce turbulence and assist with lift at low speeds during take off and landing when flaps are deployed.

manish
BRFite
Posts: 846
Joined: 29 Jan 2009 16:13

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 24 Apr 2019 20:57

Singha wrote:the current apt only has some 15 aerobridges... rest are moved by buses slowly to parking stands. things could be much faster if all flights could dock into aerobridges as it does for better airports with long "arms" stretching out from a central security cum shop/eat area.

Image

the red earth on far side of pic is apron area infront of T2. to the right of pic the new parallel runway is coming up.

Regarding aerobridges, one point to note is the dislike LCCs have of them. The turnaround times at aerobridges are actually higher vs parking at a remote bay and simultaneously using both sets of exits to move pax. Moreover, you can pack 'em like sardines into 3-4 buses and send them off into the apron even as the aircraft is being cleaned and refueled, passenger experience be damned :D

Also, at many (not all) airports the charges may be higher for using aerobridges.

IndiGo for example is well known for its preference for remote bays. But passengers and airports of course like aerobridges.

True shakinaw in Desh is DEL T3 with 78 aerobridges. But you also pay a price in terms of walking distances and building size (think of capital costs, HVAC etc etc).

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 973
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 24 Apr 2019 21:02

Austin wrote:What is the reason for having a small shark fin like thing besides the engine ? Do they have any aerodynamic function ?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D44xJEPUcAE8nc1.jpg:large


Yes. Both the A-320 NEO and the Boeing 737 Max (I'm mentioning only what is used in India) have what are called the `Sharklet' & `Winglet' respectively. In conjunction with various other changes they give fuel efficiency of around 2% The new engines contribute another 10% to fuel efficiency compared to the standard B-733 and A-320. The wing design change preceded the launch of the NEO & Max engines, so the older model Boeing and Airbus also have them.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 24 Apr 2019 23:47

Deans wrote:
Austin wrote:What is the reason for having a small shark fin like thing besides the engine ? Do they have any aerodynamic function ?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D44xJEPUcAE8nc1.jpg:large


Yes. Both the A-320 NEO and the Boeing 737 Max (I'm mentioning only what is used in India) have what are called the `Sharklet' & `Winglet' respectively. In conjunction with various other changes they give fuel efficiency of around 2% The new engines contribute another 10% to fuel efficiency compared to the standard B-733 and A-320. The wing design change preceded the launch of the NEO & Max engines, so the older model Boeing and Airbus also have them.

He is referring to the nacelle strake not the winglet. Like mmasand said, it reduces turbulence over the wing during high AoA flight.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16408
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby NRao » 24 Apr 2019 23:57

Austin wrote:What is the reason for having a small shark fin like thing besides the engine ? Do they have any aerodynamic function ?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D44xJEPUcAE8nc1.jpg:large


shark fin is a strake.

WHAT ARE STRAKES?

Strakes are small blade-like devices mounted on aircraft that enhance aerodynamics by directing airflow over certain control surfaces at specific angles of attack. This not only increases overall control authority, but increases safety by preventing loss of control at lower airspeeds. Usually located on the upper surfaces of the engine’s large fan section, these devices produce bands or ribbons of smooth airflow at high angles of attack. When directed over the wing, this airflow prevents aerodynamic burble from the large engine nacelles from blanking-out the wing’s inboard leading edges during takeoff and landing.

On many wide-body jetliners such as the Boeing 777 and Airbus A380, engine strakes are located on the inboard side of the nacelles only. Strake size and location also depend on factors such as nacelle diameter, wing leading edge sweep angle, and distance from nacelle to wing. Graphic evidence of a strake’s airflow characteristics can be seen when the humidity is high enough for water vapor in these bands, ribbons, or tubes of low-pressure air to condense, forming visible proof of their functions. If you’re sitting by a window near the leading edge of the wing, it can be quite a show on takeoff or landing!

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 12872
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Suraj » 25 Apr 2019 00:00

AAI only has data up to Feb 2019 for air traffic, so far:
Annexure 3, Feb 2019
Pages 4 and 5 list total Intl + Dom traffic figures.

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 973
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 25 Apr 2019 10:10

chetak wrote:
nandakumar wrote:Other than an in flight meal and aerobridge embarkation/disembarkation (which incidentally helps an airline turn their aircrafts around faster) what is the difference between full service carriers and LCCs? My guess is around Rs 200 per passenger per flight. Jet's losses cannot be explained by this. Even if you add 50% load factor to their performance in 2017-18 and arrive at a figure of incremental costs for being a full service carrier losses exceed that.


an economy class meal can cost above 1100 -1300 Rs and a business/first class meal can easily cost more than three to five times that amount.

cabin crew eat crew meals but pilots always eat first class meals. Rember the air India jokers ordering whatever meals caught their fancy for their flight meals, even if it cost a bomb and the airline is bleeding out. They were ORDERED by their management to stop ordering fancy meals that took their fancy and to eat what is provided by the company.

We pay for such illiterate jokers to live the high life at the cost of the public exchequer.


I'm a late entrant to the Jet airways discussion. I was the Commercial head of Go Air, so have some knowledge of airline food etc.
Nandkumar is right. An airline meal costs around Rs 250. The cost is high as the meal goes through multiple agencies - Flight kitchen, Airport security etc. Pilots eat the same food as pax in LCC's, but each one has a different meal. Apart from that, the LCC's don't use global reservation systems which take a small commission on ticket sales. That said, there is nothing low cost about a LCC, its only a low fare airline. For e.g. unlike in the West, LCC's in India use the same airports and have the same airport charges.

Compared to Indigo or Go, Jet has fewer flights per day (I'm comparing only flights within India). Jet averages around 6 flights/day while indigo and Spice do 7. (Go Air at its peak did 8/ day). That straightaway reduces revenue per aircraft.
Indigo and Spice have paid less per aircraft (per seat) than Jet, so their lease cost per seat is also lower than Jet. (possibly Jet promoter gets a kickback separately ?).
Indigo, Go and Spice have a higher proportion of more fuel efficient aircraft (A320 NEO and 737 Max), giving a lower cost per seat Km.

Jet also promotes aggressively to corporates (lot of free miles from the loyalty program). It results in same fares s Indigo or Spice in economy class, but at a higher cost base.
Last edited by Deans on 25 Apr 2019 10:53, edited 1 time in total.

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 973
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 25 Apr 2019 10:37

srin wrote:I'm puzzled. In one of the fastest growing markets, why do these airlines (KF, AI and now Jet) so debt ridden and/or going out of business ? Are they selling tickets below cost to gain marketshare ?


There are structural problems with our Civil aviation, which reduce profitability.
The best run Indian airline - Indigo, is barely profitable, as long as ATF prices don't shoot up. Our fuel costs as a % of revenue are the highest in the world. Prices can't be increased because 2nd AC rail (and soon high speed railways) are competition and the price of 2nd AC is the lowest in the world - albeit for inferior quality and slower speed.

Over 40% of all flights depart from Delhi and Mumbai only. Over half are from DEL, BOM & BLR. That increases airport charges, since all 3 airports are saturated. Most airports in India can't handle night flights. Of our top 15 airports - Pune, Goa, Chandigarh, Srinagar and Bagdogra belong to the IAF/Navy, and have reduced operating hours. (similarly, Leh, Jammu, Port Blair, Vizag).

Break-even loads for the Industry in India are around 80%. That figure is reached only in June and Dec quarters. Monsoon loads rarely cross 70%.
In winter, fog related cancellations or delays reduce revenues per aircraft, because we haven't upgraded most of our airports.

Our pilot and cabin crew salaries are at international levels, though fares are much lower. I've never figured why a 10th pass girl should get a salary significantly higher than a office receptionist or restaurant worker. The industry has failed to invest in pilot training and has to therefore pay global market prices for pilots.
In general there is a lack of professional management across airlines in India, in the commercial function (Sales, Marketing, revenue, network). Unprofitable routes are not discontinued, out of sentiment, lack of analysis, or for political favors. KF for e.g. started flights to Baramati, Latur and Nanded to please certain Maharashtra politicians.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20568
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Apr 2019 10:54

Deans wrote:
chetak wrote:
an economy class meal can cost above 1100 -1300 Rs and a business/first class meal can easily cost more than three to five times that amount.

cabin crew eat crew meals but pilots always eat first class meals. Rember the air India jokers ordering whatever meals caught their fancy for their flight meals, even if it cost a bomb and the airline is bleeding out. They were ORDERED by their management to stop ordering fancy meals that took their fancy and to eat what is provided by the company.

We pay for such illiterate jokers to live the high life at the cost of the public exchequer.


I'm a late entrant to the Jet airways discussion. I was the Commercial head of Go Air, so have some knowledge of airline food etc.
Nandkumar is right. An airline meal costs around Rs 250. The cost is high as the meal goes through multiple agencies - Flight kitchen, Airport security etc. Apart from that, the LCC's don't use global reservation systems which take a small commission on ticket sales. That said, there is nothing low cost about a LCC, its only a low fare airline. For e.g. unlike in the West, LCC's in India use the same airports and have the same airport charges.

Compared to Indigo or Go, Jet has fewer flights per day (I'm comparing only flights within India). Jet averages around 6 flights/day while indigo and Spice do 7. (Go Air at its peak did 8/ day). That straightaway reduces revenue per aircraft.
Indigo and Spice have paid less per aircraft (per seat) than Jet, so their lease cost per seat is also lower than Jet. (possibly Jet promoter gets a kickback separately ?).
Indigo, Go and Spice have a higher proportion of more fuel efficient aircraft (A320 NEO and 737 Max), giving a lower cost per seat Km.

Jet also promotes aggressively to corporates (lot of free miles from the loyalty program). It results in same fares s Indigo or Spice in economy class, but at a higher cost base.



Inflight catering was a major outgo in KFA. (apart from a whole lot of other things)

At times, mallaya changed menus and upgraded menus on the basis of even one single passenger complaint, overruling all advice to the contrary. He was whimsical and in his own mind, a legendary marketer who knew best. You have no idea of some of the very fancy prices paid by KFA or some of the financial shenanigans the bleddy higher management staff got upto. It was loot and scoot when caught. KFA (I suspect, like most other companies) rarely prosecuted, in fact they never prosecuted to "avoid bad publicity). Recoveries were almost never made. Kickbacks from contractors and service providers multiplied their take home by many times their actual salaries.

Their airport lounges fed hundreds of hangers on, friends, family and friends of friends, many from other airlines who came to visit "for discussions and meetings". All accounts were simply taken at face value and written off to "customers" and (freeloaders) using the lounges.

As usual, there were commission money, outright thefts and side contracts by his "trusted" staff who used any and every opportunity to line their own pockets and live high on the hog, all at company expense, of course. Every one of the higher management thought that "King (or queen) of Good Times" meant them personally and so they took the example of their boss and behaved accordingly.

Free loading politicians, film stars, "intellectuals", models (especially models), customs and police guys, page three hangers on, all demanded and got free business class tickets and this traffic was the highest that I have seen in any airline.

I will not go into some of the darker aspects of the complex dynamics that come into play when horny management and pretty cabin staff (male and female, BTW) are thrown into the same pot.

I know one "low cost airline" promoter who benefitted to the tune of millions whenever aircraft/engines were purchased or leased or even spares purchased. (all very conveniently paid abroad). There is no anti corruption act that applies to non govt employees, no??

His pals picked up commissions for hiring and housing expat pilots and engineers as well as a monthly cut from all their salaries (for services provided!!). Catering was done by some sadak chaap outfit owned by his family.
Last edited by chetak on 25 Apr 2019 11:01, edited 1 time in total.

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 973
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 25 Apr 2019 11:00

Singha wrote:BIAL has apparently reached the 33 million mark exhibiting 25% yoy growth.
design capacity of the T1ext was around 26 million iirc.
UAF has been raised by 20% to cover rapid ongoing expansion work.


The then govt failed to anticipate the future growth from B'lore when negotiating with the consortium that built BIAL. Ideally, HAL airport should have, by now, been reopened as an airport for use by turboprops and small business jets. That is a very small proportion of BIAL traffic, but takes disproportionate runway time. A 48/72 seat ATR takes longer to get airborne and has fewer seats than a large A320 / Boeing 737.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20568
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Apr 2019 11:06

Deans wrote:
Singha wrote:BIAL has apparently reached the 33 million mark exhibiting 25% yoy growth.
design capacity of the T1ext was around 26 million iirc.
UAF has been raised by 20% to cover rapid ongoing expansion work.


The then govt failed to anticipate the future growth from B'lore when negotiating with the consortium that built BIAL. Ideally, HAL airport should have, by now, been reopened as an airport for use by turboprops and small business jets. That is a very small proportion of BIAL traffic, but takes disproportionate runway time. A 48/72 seat ATR takes longer to get airborne and has fewer seats than a large A320 / Boeing 737.


Is such an agreement even legally sustainable??

Shutting down working and expensive infrastructure just so that another player can duplicate the same, benefit handsomely and charge whatever UDF they want. As a country, we certainly cannot afford such largesse.

Doesn't the monopolies and restrictive trade practices act apply here??

It is high time that someone challenged this loopy decision. London and Paris have multiple airports and they never had such silly agreements.

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 973
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 25 Apr 2019 11:09

chetak wrote:
Inflight catering was a major outgo in KFA. (apart from a whole lot of other things)

At times, mallaya changed menus and upgraded menus on the basis of even one single passenger complaint, overruling all advice to the contrary. He was whimsical and in his own mind, a legendary marketer who knew best. You have no idea of some of the very fancy prices paid by KFA or some of the financial shenanigans the bleddy higher management staff got upto. It was loot and scoot when caught. KFA (I suspect, like most other companies) rarely prosecuted, in fact they never prosecuted to "avoid bad publicity). Recoveries were almost never made. Kickbacks from contractors and service providers multiplied their take home by many times their actual salaries.

Their airport lounges fed hundreds of hangers on, friends, family and friends of friends, many from other airlines who came to visit "for discussions and meetings". All accounts were simply taken at face value and written off to "customers" and (freeloaders) using the lounges.

As usual, there were commission money, outright thefts and side contracts by his "trusted" staff who used any and every opportunity to line their own pockets and live high on the hog, all at company expense, of course. Every one of the higher management thought that "King (or queen) of Good Times" meant them personally and so they took the example of their boss and behaved accordingly.

Free loading politicians, film stars, "intellectuals", models (especially models), customs and police guys, page three hangers on, all demanded and got free business class tickets and this traffic was the highest that I have seen in any airline.

I will not go into some of the darker aspects of the complex dynamics that come into play when horny management and pretty cabin staff (male and female, BTW) are thrown into the same pot.

I know one "low cost airline" promoter who benefitted to the tune of millions whenever aircraft/engines were purchased or leased or even spares purchased. (all very conveniently paid abroad). There is no anti corruption act that applies to non govt employees, no??

His pals picked up commissions for hiring and housing expat pilots and engineers as well as a monthly cut from all their salaries (for services provided!!). Catering was done by some sadak chaap outfit owned by his family.


Yes. I'm aware of the same things. Some of my team at Go were from KF. Airlines in India -with the exception of Indigo (at least in my time), are run as the personal fiefdoms or the promoters. There was one instance when a person was sacked for demanding sexual favours from cabin crew for confirming their employment - they have to pass an exam. Industry veterans wondered why it was only 1 person. There are also several instances where cabin crew have been promoted to positions that are way beyond their ability to understand, let alone manage.

I used to sometimes wonder if there was ANY paying passenger in our premium economy section at Go (front 2 rows). It was not even as if people demanded certain favors from the airline. A prominent politician once wanted a last minute ticket. I told his office he would have to pay full fare (which was exorbitant, as only 2 seats were then available), which he did, without any complaint.

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 973
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 25 Apr 2019 11:20

chetak wrote:
Deans wrote:
The then govt failed to anticipate the future growth from B'lore when negotiating with the consortium that built BIAL. Ideally, HAL airport should have, by now, been reopened as an airport for use by turboprops and small business jets. That is a very small proportion of BIAL traffic, but takes disproportionate runway time. A 48/72 seat ATR takes longer to get airborne and has fewer seats than a large A320 / Boeing 737.


Is such an agreement even legally sustainable??

Shutting down working and expensive infrastructure just so that another player can duplicate the same, benefit handsomely and charge whatever UDF they want. As a country, we certainly cannot afford such largesse.
Doesn't the monopolies and restrictive trade practices act apply here??

It is high time that someone challenged this loopy decision. London and Paris have multiple airports and they never had such silly agreements.


Technically, UDF amount is regulated, but when it is paid by many more passengers than projected, the developer gains.
The problem at the time I think was that AAI/ HAL were doing a terrible job of running airports and GOI had no option but to get private players to develop airports of International standards. That said, HAL airport could still have been retained, initially for all small capacity aircraft and later (like now, when capacity is a problem) as a hub for AI or anyone else who wants to pay to have flights land in the heart of the city.
After the showpiece airport was built, there were flight disruptions after barely a year because sections of the the runway were `sinking' and had to be repaired. Airlines lost but the airport was not held accountable.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20568
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Apr 2019 11:53

Deans wrote:
chetak wrote:
Inflight catering was a major outgo in KFA. (apart from a whole lot of other things)

At times, mallaya changed menus and upgraded menus on the basis of even one single passenger complaint, overruling all advice to the contrary. He was whimsical and in his own mind, a legendary marketer who knew best. You have no idea of some of the very fancy prices paid by KFA or some of the financial shenanigans the bleddy higher management staff got upto. It was loot and scoot when caught. KFA (I suspect, like most other companies) rarely prosecuted, in fact they never prosecuted to "avoid bad publicity). Recoveries were almost never made. Kickbacks from contractors and service providers multiplied their take home by many times their actual salaries.

Their airport lounges fed hundreds of hangers on, friends, family and friends of friends, many from other airlines who came to visit "for discussions and meetings". All accounts were simply taken at face value and written off to "customers" and (freeloaders) using the lounges.

As usual, there were commission money, outright thefts and side contracts by his "trusted" staff who used any and every opportunity to line their own pockets and live high on the hog, all at company expense, of course. Every one of the higher management thought that "King (or queen) of Good Times" meant them personally and so they took the example of their boss and behaved accordingly.

Free loading politicians, film stars, "intellectuals", models (especially models), customs and police guys, page three hangers on, all demanded and got free business class tickets and this traffic was the highest that I have seen in any airline.

I will not go into some of the darker aspects of the complex dynamics that come into play when horny management and pretty cabin staff (male and female, BTW) are thrown into the same pot.

I know one "low cost airline" promoter who benefitted to the tune of millions whenever aircraft/engines were purchased or leased or even spares purchased. (all very conveniently paid abroad). There is no anti corruption act that applies to non govt employees, no??

His pals picked up commissions for hiring and housing expat pilots and engineers as well as a monthly cut from all their salaries (for services provided!!). Catering was done by some sadak chaap outfit owned by his family.


Yes. I'm aware of the same things. Some of my team at Go were from KF. Airlines in India -with the exception of Indigo (at least in my time), are run as the personal fiefdoms or the promoters. There was one instance when a person was sacked for demanding sexual favours from cabin crew for confirming their employment - they have to pass an exam. Industry veterans wondered why it was only 1 person. There are also several instances where cabin crew have been promoted to positions that are way beyond their ability to understand, let alone manage.

I used to sometimes wonder if there was ANY paying passenger in our premium economy section at Go (front 2 rows). It was not even as if people demanded certain favors from the airline. A prominent politician once wanted a last minute ticket. I told his office he would have to pay full fare (which was exorbitant, as only 2 seats were then available), which he did, without any complaint.


Some of my team at Go were from KF


hope that you got out with your wallet intact and still in your pocket.

some of these guys were incredibly dextrous, financially speaking.

I have a close relative who flew for some gulf airline for a long time before she got married and quit.

She would tell us about the some of the most preposterous and asinine escapades that their airline managements got into, especially when assigning lucrative international routes to cooperative cabin crews.

I understand that it is still the practice out there.

suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3415
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby suryag » 25 Apr 2019 12:39

Chetak Ji let’s focus on how jet went down the Musharraf rather than escapades of older men and PYTs my belief is jet went the spicejet maran way of siphoning money

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20568
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Apr 2019 12:52

suryag wrote:Chetak Ji let’s focus on how jet went down the Musharraf rather than escapades of older men and PYTs my belief is jet went the spicejet maran way of siphoning money


suryag ji,

we were talking about why airlines fail.

Seems like a relevant topic to discuss though some of the hairy details may not be to everyone's liking but they are still relevant to the overall culture and practices that start to rapidly degrade, permeate and pervade a failing entity.

There are folks on the forum who know the jet story in detail but are not posting.

Perhaps you can understand why they are hesitant.

Everything may become clear in the fullness of time.

But, I see your point.

manish
BRFite
Posts: 846
Joined: 29 Jan 2009 16:13

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 25 Apr 2019 22:52

Deans wrote:
Singha wrote:BIAL has apparently reached the 33 million mark exhibiting 25% yoy growth.
design capacity of the T1ext was around 26 million iirc.
UAF has been raised by 20% to cover rapid ongoing expansion work.


The then govt failed to anticipate the future growth from B'lore when negotiating with the consortium that built BIAL. Ideally, HAL airport should have, by now, been reopened as an airport for use by turboprops and small business jets. That is a very small proportion of BIAL traffic, but takes disproportionate runway time. A 48/72 seat ATR takes longer to get airborne and has fewer seats than a large A320 / Boeing 737.

Hard to blame the planners and decision makers from the Vajpayee era who negotiated the BLR and HYD contracts which basically were conceived in an almost identical manner as far as contract terms are concerned. Although the actual signing happened under early days of UPA I, most of the work was done between 1999-2004 on these contracts.

Mind you, this was the age when the Indian economy and in particular the infrastructure segment were mere fractions of what they are today. Private participation in the economy itself was just about picking up and the government had to work pretty hard to convince people to pony up cash to build the showpiece airports that finally ended up getting built in both cities.

If memory serves right, BLR traffic back then was barely about a million/million and a half pax a year with hardly any growth prospects on the horizon. How would 2 airports be justified on such a small and anemic base? So govt offered up a 25 year time- limited exclusivity within a 150km aerial distance to give comfort to the investors that the massive investments made upfront wouldn't be at risk.

The exclusivity period runs out in 2033. If Navi Mumbai is to be taken as a reference, government can start pre-development works today to have any hopes of opening a new airport by then :rotfl:

mmasand
BRFite
Posts: 608
Joined: 19 May 2009 23:46

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby mmasand » 25 Apr 2019 22:58

So Jet 737 type rated pilots who have yet to resign, showed up to a big recruitment day for FO's hosted by SpiceJet on 23rd. Here is what transpired in their words.

Capt SPS Suri-EVP Spice says... "We are doing charity by hiring you guys! Because The Chairman Ajay Singh promised the government..." adding they don't want situation like Kingfisher where pilots were left stranded...

He even says that they actually don't need pilots, it's social service. He also says that 50 Lacs bond for first officers is mandatory because we FOs are the most fraud ppl in the aviation community.

Another hilarious thing that he says that "I am losing 50 lacs on every first officer I am hiring. If I get brand new CPL holder I'll take 25 lacs from him & get a 25 lacs bond signed from him. And can make him work for 10,000.. Yet I want to hire you"

People walked off on his face when he said that give your resignation now and take the joining letter then only he ll take the interviews!

And last but not the least!! Answering question asked by Captain on Base!! He said “Beggars are not choosers”

#SaveJetAirways #JetAirwaysCrisis #BleedYellow #ProudToBe9W


Please keep in mind these are FO's who would have flying hours between as little as 200 to 2000.

manish
BRFite
Posts: 846
Joined: 29 Jan 2009 16:13

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 25 Apr 2019 23:00

Deans wrote:
chetak wrote:
Is such an agreement even legally sustainable??

Shutting down working and expensive infrastructure just so that another player can duplicate the same, benefit handsomely and charge whatever UDF they want. As a country, we certainly cannot afford such largesse.
Doesn't the monopolies and restrictive trade practices act apply here??

It is high time that someone challenged this loopy decision. London and Paris have multiple airports and they never had such silly agreements.


Technically, UDF amount is regulated, but when it is paid by many more passengers than projected, the developer gains.
The problem at the time I think was that AAI/ HAL were doing a terrible job of running airports and GOI had no option but to get private players to develop airports of International standards. That said, HAL airport could still have been retained, initially for all small capacity aircraft and later (like now, when capacity is a problem) as a hub for AI or anyone else who wants to pay to have flights land in the heart of the city.
After the showpiece airport was built, there were flight disruptions after barely a year because sections of the the runway were `sinking' and had to be repaired. Airlines lost but the airport was not held accountable.

Deans sir, one minor correction - there's no real upside or downside to UDF revenues for the developer.

UDF is part of the so called Aero Revenue bucket per the regulator AERA and the aero revenues can be recovered only to the extent that covers the allowable return on top of the aeronautical asset base (terminal, runway etc that form the core airport infrastructure, but not the fancy Taj Bangalore hotel across the front porch that belongs to the airport company).

AERA calculates a yield per pax based on available projections which determines all tariff including UDF. If you recover more during a given 5 year 'Control Period' your tariff goes down in the next and vice versa.

For example, at DEL UDF went down to Rs 10 per pax before some legal interventions brought it back to around Rs 70. Similarly at BLR, recent UDF hike is for a short 4 month period to mop up some shortfall to fund the airport expansion.

nithish
BRFite
Posts: 428
Joined: 02 Oct 2009 02:41

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby nithish » 26 Apr 2019 04:25

Boeing says suffering $1 bn hit from 737 MAX crisis

Aviation giant Boeing has suffered a $1 billion hit to its bottom line amid the crisis over its 737 MAX aircraft, grounded worldwide after two deadly crashes, the company said Wednesday.

In its first quarterly earnings report since entering crisis mode, Boeing also withdrew its 2019 profit forecast due to continued uncertainty about when the grounded jets will return to the skies.

---

Company executives sketched out the steps needed to return the 737 MAX to service -- including a fix to the flight software system implicated in the crashes -- but offered no timetable.

Asked pointedly during a conference call with analysts for an explanation of what happened, the executives defended Boeing's design and engineering practices despite negative news exposes criticizing the company's operations and commitment to safety.

"I can tell you with confidence that we understand our aeroplane, we understand how the design was accomplished, how the certification was accomplished and we remain fully confident in the product that we put in the field," Chief Executive Dennis Muilenburg said in a conference call with analysts.

"There was no surprise, or gap or unknown here, or something that somehow slipped through a certification process."


But Muilenburg acknowledged the need to win back public trust and said the firm would enlist the help of pilots to reassure anxious customers, adding that "the bond between the passenger and the pilot is one that is critical."

The company's share price climbed following the earnings report, reflecting relief that the financial damage from the 737 MAX crisis was not worse.

Given Boeing's size, the financial hit to the company has been "modest so far," S&P Global Ratings said, but warned that the cash drain will continue until the company can resume deliveries.

---
Boeing said it is "making steady progress" on the software fix and has conducted more than 135 test flights as it works with global regulators and airlines on the system.

But as of Tuesday night, the company still had not filed a formal certification request to the US Federal Aviation Administration, a source said.

After submitting the request, the next step will be to conduct a certification flight with the US Federal Aviation Administration, and then the company will need to win approval from international regulators, Muilenburg said.

Boeing is hoping to finalize regulatory approval by the end of May for its fix and to have the planes cleared to fly in July, according to a source familiar with the situation.


arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3442
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby arshyam » 26 Apr 2019 06:44

"There was no surprise, or gap or unknown here, or something that somehow slipped through a certification process."

So, are they saying that they knew the MCAS would cause the aircraft to crash in such situations? :evil:

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 973
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Deans » 26 Apr 2019 10:48

[/quote]
Hard to blame the planners and decision makers from the Vajpayee era who negotiated the BLR and HYD contracts which basically were conceived in an almost identical manner as far as contract terms are concerned. Although the actual signing happened under early days of UPA I, most of the work was done between 1999-2004 on these contracts.

Mind you, this was the age when the Indian economy and in particular the infrastructure segment were mere fractions of what they are today. Private participation in the economy itself was just about picking up and the government had to work pretty hard to convince people to pony up cash to build the showpiece airports that finally ended up getting built in both cities.

If memory serves right, BLR traffic back then was barely about a million/million and a half pax a year with hardly any growth prospects on the horizon. How would 2 airports be justified on such a small and anemic base? So govt offered up a 25 year time- limited exclusivity within a 150km aerial distance to give comfort to the investors that the massive investments made upfront wouldn't be at risk.
[/quote]

You're quite right. Getting private players in the airport business at the time was difficult and there was hardly anyone interested.
However, there are precedents from other countries that privatised airports. I'm aware of Moscow, where 95 million pax share 4 airports, while
Delhi with 70 million, has 1 (2 terminals sharing common runways, like the 2 in Sheremetevo, Moscow I've counted as 1)

My point was that Govt could have had a clause wherein if capacity utilisation at BIAL crossed a certain level, HAL would be made available, starting with propellor based aircraft.

Your observation on UDF calculation is quite correct. Where the airport gains from surges in passenger numbers however is on store rentals and delays in adjusting UDF charges downwards. However, surges in passenger traffic do not guarantee higher profit. Retail outlets at Hyderabad airport are less profitable than B'lore (adjusted for no of pax) because the passenger flying out of B'lore typically spends more (HYD has a higher proportion of Gulf bound workers).

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Apr 2019 11:39

HAL airport resuming civilian ops is a non-starter due to impact on traffic.
the airport road is bad enough as it is, without adding a airport to it.
old timers will remember the chaos just before BIAL started.
there was grand total of 2 long and 1 short baggage belts.
cars were jammed in driveway from the entrance itself and people had to alight and move forward rolling heavy baggages.

if the roads were bigger + metro rail connectivity to terminal on a new airport road UNDERGROUND metro line then it may have been feasible but with HAL having to give up huge land for a proper new terminal and parking area - something they would loathe to do.

flying ac in and out is the least of problems. the real problems are on the ground.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Apr 2019 11:45

rather than another apt immediately with its own issues of land and cost, better to build up BIAL properly with a T3 and rapid metro links as far south as Hosur, west to Bidadi and east to Hoskote. build proper NICE roads around bluru - which has only been talked off for 15 years now.

let TN invest in a new hosur apt (current location will not work) and build it up, starting with domestic flights. KA anyway has no land upto the border.

arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3442
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby arshyam » 26 Apr 2019 14:43

Hosur is also under the 150-km limit. That's why UDAN operations are also delayed (I think they have the perms now, though, iirc).

manish
BRFite
Posts: 846
Joined: 29 Jan 2009 16:13

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby manish » 26 Apr 2019 15:12

Deans wrote:
manish wrote:Hard to blame the planners and decision makers from the Vajpayee era who negotiated the BLR and HYD contracts which basically were conceived in an almost identical manner as far as contract terms are concerned. Although the actual signing happened under early days of UPA I, most of the work was done between 1999-2004 on these contracts.

Mind you, this was the age when the Indian economy and in particular the infrastructure segment were mere fractions of what they are today. Private participation in the economy itself was just about picking up and the government had to work pretty hard to convince people to pony up cash to build the showpiece airports that finally ended up getting built in both cities.

If memory serves right, BLR traffic back then was barely about a million/million and a half pax a year with hardly any growth prospects on the horizon. How would 2 airports be justified on such a small and anemic base? So govt offered up a 25 year time- limited exclusivity within a 150km aerial distance to give comfort to the investors that the massive investments made upfront wouldn't be at risk.


You're quite right. Getting private players in the airport business at the time was difficult and there was hardly anyone interested.
However, there are precedents from other countries that privatised airports. I'm aware of Moscow, where 95 million pax share 4 airports, while
Delhi with 70 million, has 1 (2 terminals sharing common runways, like the 2 in Sheremetevo, Moscow I've counted as 1)

My point was that Govt could have had a clause wherein if capacity utilisation at BIAL crossed a certain level, HAL would be made available, starting with propellor based aircraft.

Your observation on UDF calculation is quite correct. Where the airport gains from surges in passenger numbers however is on store rentals and delays in adjusting UDF charges downwards. However, surges in passenger traffic do not guarantee higher profit. Retail outlets at Hyderabad airport are less profitable than B'lore (adjusted for no of pax) because the passenger flying out of B'lore typically spends more (HYD has a higher proportion of Gulf bound workers).

Deans Saar, valid point regarding store rentals, in fact to ensure that pax and airlines get a cut of the profits there, AERA recovers 30% of such income from the UDF calculations.

And any timing difference in UDF adjustments is taken care of while calculating tariff in subsequent period by discounting the cash flows appropriately. It's almost a zero sum game.

Also regarding DEL (and BOM) the contract allowed only a right to match the highest bidder to the existing player, there's no bar on developing a second airport, as can be seen with Navi Mumbai project.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20568
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Postby chetak » 26 Apr 2019 16:12

arshyam wrote:Hosur is also under the 150-km limit. That's why UDAN operations are also delayed (I think they have the perms now, though, iirc).


there is already a runway there that is able to accept an airbus A320.

However, it may need some upgrades and the terminal building etc.


Return to “Technology & Economic Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ravikr and 12 guests