Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

[brar_w]

so we are proceeding to our own avengard. this would be a good RV for 1-warhead missiles like A4 and A5.

Avengard is a Hypersonic glider, sort of skipping on the upper atmosphere at M25-30 speed. HSTDV is a powered hypersonic flight vehicle, a Scramjet. It will be flying at M6 or so. Hypersonic glider is relatively easier tech, India should be able to put together a prototype within 3yrs and operationalize one within a decade if the Political leadership wants to. Scramjet tech is much more complex.

I wouldn't call the hypersonic glider an "easier tech". It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish with each weapon type and what your requirements are for performance. The US for example has spent about a decade trying to develop a significantly more maneuverable (compared to a baseline/historic performance) and capable HGV and as the challenges, failures and lessons learned with falcon showed there is a lot of invention required to get that right. Even they with decades of hyperosonic experimentation and data, are hedging with a much simpler Sandia swerve based BGV and putting it into service before DARPA's more ambitious BGVs are put through their paces and put into service around early to middle of the next decade. I don't think anyone intimately familiar with the HTV-2 and the X-51 would call the former "easier" than the latter. Scramjet ignitions and even positive acceleration has been achieved but I guess the challenges there are are around size, weight, performance and having seekers and guidance that can function at sustained high mach cruise phases. Some of these require serious work and probably explains why scramjets, which have achieved significant technology milestones in Russia and US over the last couple of decades have yet to show up as an operational system. But very different challenges, especially when you are trying to develop tactical BGV's that have to still maintain non ballistic trajectory for >50% of their mission range. You can have a scramjet program and WS with much simpler requirements and a HGV program that absolutely tests the limits of your MatSci and Vice Versa. It all depends what your design goals are.

[Singha]

I am all for HGV also, as the depressed trajectories and sine curve paths will be good to complicate the attack tracks of BMD interceptors.

[Singha]

why is isro playing with scramjets which are sub orbital and need air to work?

https://www.isro.gov.in/launchers/isro% ... ght-tested

the drdo scramjet is laying the groundwork for brahmos3.

i am not sure where this gent fits in . there are some claims that Yasen already has it

[Zynda]

Vishu Som is reporting that HSTDV did not manage to light up after separation from Agni-1 and the outcomes of the test were not as expected.

[disha]

Just to be clear, is this scramjet from DRDO totally distinct from what ISRO tested in August/2016? With separate teams, designs et al?

Yes. ISRO is aiming for TSTO and will require scramjet propulsion. DRDO is aiming for post-Brahmos hypersonic missile, its applications are many including an Anti-ballistic or even anti-cruise missile. Only similarity between them is "holding the flame in cyclone" and the speeds at which they operate.

---

It is interesting that US/Russia/China talk about a MTCR in Hypersonic regime, but only India has fielded a supersonic cruise missile and is going to field one ALSCM from its front line fighters. Sounds like me and my younger cousins discussing strategies on how not to share the bat or ball or wicket with the older cousins who had taken the entire cricketing kit out to the field!

[disha]

Vishu Som is reporting that HSTDV did not manage to light up after separation from Agni-1 and the outcomes of the test were not as expected.

Follow Hemant Kumar Raut and not Vishnu Som.

[brar_w]

It is interesting that US/Russia/China talk about a MTCR in Hypersonic regime, but only India has fielded a supersonic cruise missile and is going to field one ALSCM from its front line fighters. Sounds like me and my younger cousins discussing strategies on how not to share the bat or ball or wicket with the older cousins who had taken the entire cricketing kit out to the field!

Both Russia and China field supersonic cruise missiles. The USAF will light up Lockheed and Raytheon's Hypersonic cruise missile designs (both scramjet) later this year and will pick a cruise missile design to pursue into service after that. I think the bureaucratic talk is more about capability though and not who fields what, when and why. Many nations that currently do not have a supersonic cruise missile can very easily put on into service if it was deemed essential, and yet others, like Japan, can incrementally build capability and increase performance of the ones they have. Hypersonic cruise missiles are a bit trickier but again probably within the grasp of 3-4 nations at least given a wide enough timeframe. It is probably in India's interests to rapidly develop the capability and then also join the call for control and restrictions and prevent Russia, China and others from proliferating the tech in the region.

[Zynda]

Now Shiv Aroor on Livefist twitter feed is also saying that today's HSTDV test was not a success.

No, India's first test of a hypersonic air vehicle was not a success -- but flight testing an advanced capability system is fraught with risk. Our full report on gains, scenarios and what comes next

[Indranil]

I would have been surprised if they would have succeeded in their first try. We are now investigating the boundary of man's current knowledge.

[nash]

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) Today launched a Technology Demonstrator Vehicle to prove a number of critical technologies for futuristic missions from Dr Abdul Kalam Island off the coast of Odisha.



The missile was successfully launched at 1127 Hours. Various radars, telemetry stations and electro optical tracking sensors tracked the vehicle through its course. The data has been collected and will be analysed to validate the critical technologies.

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleseDetail.aspx?PRID=1574035

It say launch was successful, not much.

[nam]

The fact that we are now flight testing HSTDV, means atleast basic technical hurdles have been crossed and there is political approval (and funding).

So now all we have to do is increase the pace of testing, while our babus do their usual thing. Delaying discussion over chai biscoot..

[JayS]

The fact that we are now flight testing HSTDV, means atleast basic technical hurdles have been crossed and there is political approval (and funding).

So now all we have to do is increase the pace of testing, while our babus do their usual thing. Delaying discussion over chai biscoot..

Can't really say we have crossed the basic tech hurdles. Only when we have flight tested we can see if we have done so. We (not just India but everyone) are still at least 2 decades away from a proper and robust enough Scramjet technology, I would say.

[disha]

Both Russia and China field supersonic cruise missiles. The USAF will light up Lockheed and Raytheon's Hypersonic cruise missile designs (both scramjet) later this year and will pick a cruise missile design to pursue into service after that.

I take back on Russia. I forgot that they have the P-800 Oniks fielded.

As for China., Unless I see visible demonstration from China, I do not think they have a viable supersonic cruise missile of their own. Of course blusters like below does not mean anything:

Guangdong Hongda Blasting Company is a mining company based in Guangzhou, the capital of South China’s Guangdong Province. The company produces both blasting and military equipment. According to open source information, the company has not designed and manufactured missiles prior to the HD-1. Total company investment into the HD-1 program has been $188 million, according to Hongda.

Chinese military analysts have already touted the HD-1 as superior to the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, a joint venture between India’s Defense Research Development Organization and Russian rocket design bureau NPO Mashinostroyeniya. “The BrahMos missile is a more expensive, less useful supersonic cruise missile developed by India and Russia,” Wei Dongxu told the Global Times on October 16. “Pakistan and Middle Eastern countries are likely to show interest given the weapon’s potential to break anti-missile systems at supersonic speeds,” he added.

---

Hypersonic cruise missiles are a bit trickier but again probably within the grasp of 3-4 nations at least given a wide enough timeframe. It is probably in India's interests to rapidly develop the capability and then also join the call for control and restrictions and prevent Russia, China and others from proliferating the tech in the region.

My point was and is that the reason India is included in MTCR is because India is very very advanced in missile technology. Including Hypersonic tech. Hence all this talk about Hypersonic MTCR with China on board is just hot gas.

Of course, that does not mean India needs to be complacent. India has to continue forward and field Hypersonic missiles with large stand off distances. China either has to catch up and if it proliferates to Bakistan, it will be the one at the receiving end and left behind.

[disha]

Now Shiv Aroor on Livefist twitter feed is also saying that today's HSTDV test was not a success.

No, India's first test of a hypersonic air vehicle was not a success -- but flight testing an advanced capability system is fraught with risk. Our full report on gains, scenarios and what comes next

It might be a test for sustained fire in the belly vs. sustained fire in the rear for supersonic regimes. Having a sustained fire in belly for say 200 seconds itself will be a major major goal!

[shaun]

Might be DDM

While the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) claimed it was a success, defence sources said that the Agni-I ballistic carrier vehicle on which the HSTDV was to receive its altitude boost didn’t complete the mission. This is likely due to the weight issue, sources said, adding that this is just first of the many tests that are planned.

[Sid]

Might be DDM

While the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) claimed it was a success, defence sources said that the Agni-I ballistic carrier vehicle on which the HSTDV was to receive its altitude boost didn’t complete the mission. This is likely due to the weight issue, sources said, adding that this is just first of the many tests that are planned.

Very nice, so it was not some scale model of HSTDV which was tested. Waiting to see some pics.

[nits]

Now Shiv Aroor on Livefist twitter feed is also saying that today's HSTDV test was not a success.

No, India's first test of a hypersonic air vehicle was not a success -- but flight testing an advanced capability system is fraught with risk. Our full report on gains, scenarios and what comes next

All part of game; reveal some; hide some

[tsarkar]

The press release gives indication of how the test went.

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleseDetail.aspx?PRID=1572701

All the mission objectives have been met.

means test completely successful

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleseDetail.aspx?PRID=1574035

The missile was successfully launched

means the launch process was successful but rest of the test parameters were not met.

Given scramjet engines are the edge of technology and given the relatively meager budget and number of scientists working on the project, it was highly unlikely the first test would meet all mission objectives. Lets wait for our baby to grow up. No one becomes an opening batsman the day they open their eyes.

[JayS]

Avengard is a Hypersonic glider, sort of skipping on the upper atmosphere at M25-30 speed. HSTDV is a powered hypersonic flight vehicle, a Scramjet. It will be flying at M6 or so. Hypersonic glider is relatively easier tech, India should be able to put together a prototype within 3yrs and operationalize one within a decade if the Political leadership wants to. Scramjet tech is much more complex.

I wouldn't call the hypersonic glider an "easier tech". It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish with each weapon type and what your requirements are for performance. The US for example has spent about a decade trying to develop a significantly more maneuverable (compared to a baseline/historic performance) and capable HGV and as the challenges, failures and lessons learned with falcon showed there is a lot of invention required to get that right. Even they with decades of hyperosonic experimentation and data, are hedging with a much simpler Sandia swerve based BGV and putting it into service before DARPA's more ambitious BGVs are put through their paces and put into service around early to middle of the next decade. I don't think anyone intimately familiar with the HTV-2 and the X-51 would call the former "easier" than the latter. Scramjet ignitions and even positive acceleration has been achieved but I guess the challenges there are are around size, weight, performance and having seekers and guidance that can function at sustained high mach cruise phases. Some of these require serious work and probably explains why scramjets, which have achieved significant technology milestones in Russia and US over the last couple of decades have yet to show up as an operational system. But very different challenges, especially when you are trying to develop tactical BGV's that have to still maintain non ballistic trajectory for >50% of their mission range. You can have a scramjet program and WS with much simpler requirements and a HGV program that absolutely tests the limits of your MatSci and Vice Versa. It all depends what your design goals are.

Brar Sahab, one can complicate any fairly advanced tech enough to make it more complex than some other similar technologies. Unless we specify what exact capabilities we are talking about, its probably not much fruitful to discuss things. I totally agree when you say

It all depends what your design goals are.

Perhaps the things I have in my mind are not same as the things you mentioned about US programs. I don't expect India to be able to field superior oe even equivalent Hypersonic Gliders than what US can even in 2x the time. Nor can India do the same for Scramjets. But, only given current Indian ambitions which are regional in nature and capabilities (current and eminent in upcoming future), I feel we can have a decent working Hypersonic Glider missile in about a decades time if the project is executed in Mission mode. While Scramjet would take at least 2 decades for similar maturity. I also know that it will not happen because even though we have seen GOI waking up to some critical things such as space warfare and working on Mission Critical mode on programs like ASAT, I still don't have enough confidence that the Hypersonic technology will get required boost in near future.

[Singha]

tsarkar sir, the grapevine is the Agni1 booster did not reach the desired height and altitude so was terminated or ran out of steam and crashed. hence the hypersonic payload was not activated and fell into the sea. I hope we have some explosive attached that is triggered by water immersion to prevent enemy midget subs sniffing around the sea floor.

[srin]

https://theprint.in/defence/wiser-after-balakot-india-orders-missiles-worth-700-million-from-russia/249553/

After the Balakot strike and the dogfight with the Pakistani air force in February, India is looking to increase its stockpile of missiles with the Modi government ordering weaponry worth about $700 million for the Indian Air Force from Russia.

These include air-to-air missiles with an extended range as well air-to-surface missiles, ThePrint has learnt.

Highly placed sources said close to 300 short-range air-to-air missiles, the R-73, and 400 medium-range air-to-air guided missiles, the RVV-AE, also known as the R-77, have been ordered.

The R-77 is the Russian counterpart to the US medium-range AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. The American make was unsuccessfully used by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to target Indian Su-30 MKIs on 27 February, a day after the IAF strikes on Balakot.

These missiles are designed to arm the Russian-made MiG and Sukhoi aircraft.

The order, meant to boost the IAF’s capability, also includes a radar-busting missile, the X-31, said the sources.

Russia, India eye longer range missiles

Sources said Russia has also offered to help India for future orders with missiles with ranges longer than the ones it currently possesses.

According to Russian Tactical Missiles Corporation, the developer and producer of most of the Russian air-to-air missiles, the R-73’s range is 30 km. The range of its latest version, the RVV-MD, is 40 km.

It’s the same case with the R-77, which can hit targets at a distance of up to 80 km, while its latest version, the RVV-SD, can go up to 110 km.

Russia is currently offering its partners globally the short-range air-to-air RVV-MD missiles, medium-range air-to-air RVV-SD missiles, long-range air-to-air RVV-BD missiles, and medium-range air-to-air RVV-AE (R-77) missiles.

Integrating other missiles — for instance, the Israeli Derby air-to-air missiles — with the Su-30 will require permission from Russia, said the sources.

“Russia and India can jointly implement the programme of modernisation of the IAF’s air-to-air missiles. All the requirements of the Air Force can be discussed and met. The work could start as soon as possible once the formal request is made,” added the sources.

[Arun.prabhu]

That's too bad. BVR missiles once again proved to be miserable failures in the post Ballot fracas. We should be investing in short range missiles, much better ECM, and any number of other things that will help us close with the enemy for a decisive engagement.

[Singha]

to close to 20km against a continuous stream of amraams is tough unless you are a ELO fighter like f22.
needs very strong jamming platform like growla i expect.
it also gives pakis the luxury of firing amraams and then running away gleefully even as we start the chase.

for scare tactics, Mig31BM armed with RVVBD and its huge ERAM at 70,000 feet and Mach2.5 would be good...immune from amraams and able to look down, shoot down.

[tsarkar]

tsarkar sir, the grapevine is the Agni1 booster did not reach the desired height and altitude so was terminated or ran out of steam and crashed. hence the hypersonic payload was not activated and fell into the sea. I hope we have some explosive attached that is triggered by water immersion to prevent enemy midget subs sniffing around the sea floor.

Typically the impact with water at those speeds breaks down any rocket+spacecraft into small pieces. If the booster malfunctioned then in all probability a failsafe explosive charge was activated to prevent it from going outside NOTAM area.

For recovery we do have HUGIN UUVs and DSRVs

[Zynda]

So it seems like we are ordering the same R-77 (not even R-77-SD which RuAF uses) or is it DDM @ work? Any ideas why IAF is not considering SD variant?

[Indranil]

I have learned to believe anything about a prospective order only when it is placed. There is our procurement system and then their is DDM. Too many unreliablities.

[nam]

So it seems like we are ordering the same R-77 (not even R-77-SD which RuAF uses) or is it DDM @ work? Any ideas why IAF is not considering SD variant?

May be because the SD version was not test on Su30 or SOP laid out for newer version? These are ops requirement. You dont induct untested kit in to ops.

[Aditya_V]

We might have a lot of flying time of our existing Inventory so they may need replacement. It also shows there is no alarm or disappointment with R-77 with the IAF as some Defence journos claim. PAF just sprayed Amraam's hoping for a H&D kill. I hope the Americans stop using the term SLAMMER now that the PAF had at least 6 misses with AMRAAM that day. Or atleast comment of the poor PAF tactics.

Another point given the amount of flying time both AF's did post Balakot, a lot of missiles including PAF AMRAAM's and Sidewinders would have finished thier operational life, is PAF placing a replacement order or thier F-16's will have now have to make do with lesser no of missiles, and those 2006 missiles will require major maintence from American supplier to remain operational, not easy to do when Paki rupee has hit 153 to the dollar.

[nam]

PAF got Aim120 along with their F16 from Jordan. So there will be indirect supplies from US through Turkey & Jordan.

Irrespective of the source, PAF will have a big bill.

Which is why we need to send our jet near LoC/IB on a regular basis to make Pak use their jets and BVR. A "non-war" attrition war.

[Aditya_V]

Initially downed F-16 was thought to be ex Jordanian but later IAF sources said it was the 1 of the 6 Block 52, F-16D twin seater not any of the upgraded F 16A/B which went down. US has control on transfer of its weapons and munitions, they want some control on these process and dont want the Pakis to ship a few to Chinese for close examination which we will refurbished by Jordanian stocks. US agreed to sell Pakis the Ex Jordanian F-16's since Pakis could not pay full price for new build F-16's

[SandeepR]

One question. Can the HSTDV not be released from an aircraft at an test altitude?

[abhik]

We have over 400 platforms that can launch R-77, so this order is not really huge (around 1 missile per fighter).

[JayS]

One question. Can the HSTDV not be released from an aircraft at an test altitude?

Which aircraft flies at 32km altitude..??

What can be done is, it can be taken at say to 40000ft underslung and then the booster attached to the Scramjet takes it as high and as fast as needed for the test. But we need large aircraft like B52 to do that. Americans often do the testing using this approach. May be one of the retired Tu142 could have been taken over by DRDO and used for such testing..? I don't know. Or perhaps we rig one of our C17 for such capability..? But putting it on A1 booster doesn't seem too bad a way either, for a low tempo of tests. Maintaining specialized aircraft with such launch capability may prove less cost effective actually.

[tsarkar]

The new missile order was for MiG-29UPG fleet that has completed its upgrade. The older 9.12 was enabled to fire R-27 & R-60 and post upgrade the new missiles were enabled and thereafter ordered. Ofcourse missiles procured for Su-30 & MiG-21 Bison can be used in the interim.

The MD/SD/BD missiles are WIP and as usual Russia wants India to fund their development while they sell everywhere else.

[Zynda]

Tsarkar, thanks for clarifying the status of R-77 variants...Russians made it seem like its operational. Anyways, Astra & SDFR are the future...

[Gyan]

The new missile order was for MiG-29UPG fleet that has completed its upgrade. The older 9.12 was enabled to fire R-27 & R-60 and post upgrade the new missiles were enabled and thereafter ordered. Ofcourse missiles procured for Su-30 & MiG-21 Bison can be used in the interim.

The MD/SD/BD missiles are WIP and as usual Russia wants India to fund their development while they sell everywhere else.

It seems odd to order missiles "after" upgrade is complete. It should have been ordered along with the deal of upgrade or shortly after like Mirage 2000 and Mica. Though present deal can be a follow on batch also.

We have around 400-450 IAF & Navy aircraft capable of firing R77s. This, We should have inventory of anything from 2500 to 5000 R77s but there has been no news about such procurement in recent past except this news of 400 R77 procurement.

[Aditya_V]

It would be reasonable that some of the missiles in our inventory have had their operational life exhausted and these are a replacement

[Indranil]

One question. Can the HSTDV not be released from an aircraft at an test altitude?

Which aircraft flies at 32km altitude..??

What can be done is, it can be taken at say to 40000ft underslung and then the booster attached to the Scramjet takes it as high and as fast as needed for the test. But we need large aircraft like B52 to do that. Americans often do the testing using this approach. May be one of the retired Tu142 could have been taken over by DRDO and used for such testing..? I don't know. Or perhaps we rig one of our C17 for such capability..? But putting it on A1 booster doesn't seem too bad a way either, for a low tempo of tests. Maintaining specialized aircraft with such launch capability may prove less cost effective actually.

The article is 6 mtrs long, about 1 ton in weight. It needs to be boosted from <1 M to 4-5 M (and as you said to 30 km). That would need at least a 1.5 ton booster (and that is a very conservative estimate). So, this is heavier than the Brahmos.

The Agni booster is much more simpler and cheaper. The work on that integration has been going on for a couple of years.

[Singha]

the B52 can only take the object upto 10km high and speed of 800kmph. so even the US hypersonics will need a jettisonable solid fuel booster to reach the height and speed to try the scramjet engine. we dont have B52 so thats not an option. they can get away with a smaller booster.

in the good old days the B52 used to drop launch the X1, X15 types ... neil armstrong used to fly the x15 like that.

[JTull]

India Begins User Trials of Russian Air-to-Air Missiles, Destroys UK-Made Drone in Drill

In the first indication that Russian missiles are being used by India's primary warplanes, including the Su-30MKI and Mirage 2000, the Indian Air Force has started user trials of next generation air-to-air missiles manufactured by Vympel, a subsidiary of Russia's consolidated JSC Tactical Missiles Corporation.

New Delhi (Sputnik): The Indian Air Force (IAF) began user trials of extended-range, Russian-made air-to-air missiles on Wednesday. On the first day, the IAF test fired the air-to-air missile from a Sukhoi-30 MKI combat aircraft; it destroyed a UK-made Banshee drone off the coast of Odisha.

It was reported earlier that the IAF had asked to be able to immediately purchase the air-to-air missiles and guided missiles after the mid-February escalation along the western border.

The nation's stockpile dipped due to an increased number of combat air patrol missions along the border with Pakistan, involving its main fighters, such as the Su-30MKI, MiG-29, and Mirage 2000.

It is believed that the missiles that it has been testing at the eastern base are RVV-MD short-range missiles, RVV-SD medium-range missiles, and RVV-BD beyond visual range missiles - the next generation of Vympel’s air-to-air missiles.

Vympel is the manufacturer of the R-73 air-to-air missile, which was used by IAF pilot Abhinandan Varthaman to shoot down a Pakistan Air Force F-16 on 27 February when the two countries engaged in an aerial clash.

The RVV-BD missile weighs 500-kg and features a 60-kg warhead. During the endgame, it is capable of 8g manoeuvring, flying at Mach 6. The RVV-MD is ab export version of the R-74, which has increased anti-jamming protection, including optical jamming.

Earlier, it was reported that the Indian Air Force intended to replace the Su-30 MKI's current close combat missile — the Russian-built Vympel R-73 — with the European ASRAAM heat-seeking close combat air-to-air missile in phases.