Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Jun 2019 13:36

aryaputri

what, are we racist pigs.

why can't she be a vayuputri.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 11 Jun 2019 19:37

I thought that might inflame some passions.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jun 2019 13:08

ET - will be announced at paris air show

Engine maker CFM International is poised to announce one of the world's largest jet engine orders with a deal for more than 600 engines from India's IndiGoNSE -0.65 %, industry sources said.

The French-U.S. engine maker, owned by General Electric and France's Safran, has been competing with the airline's existing engine supplier, Pratt & Whitney, to provide the power for 280 twin-engine A320-family jetliners already on order from Airbus by the Delhi-based budget carrier.

..

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/69766098.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jun 2019 13:57

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/ ... index.html

A321XLR - range to hai but toilets, high ceiling and airflow nahi. things will get rough on long haul in this dumpster.

ashbhee · Post by **ashbhee** » 18 Jun 2019 21:08

If Jet is liquidated, which is what it looks like will happen, how much money will PSU banks recover / loose? I wonder what percentage of the tax payers money will be recovered.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 19 Jun 2019 18:19

It's a plane deal: What does Jet offer in terms of saleable assets.

From the little information in the link: Jet airways owns 16 planes which are worth Rs 5000 Crores.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Jun 2019 18:00

Vips wrote:It's a plane deal: What does Jet offer in terms of saleable assets.

From the little information in the link: Jet airways owns 16 planes which are worth Rs 5000 Crores.

Seems like at least half of those are parked at BOM, having passed through there on Monday.

Najunamar · Post by **Najunamar** » 21 Jun 2019 10:55

chetak wrote:aryaputri

what, are we racist pigs.

why can't she be a vayuputri.

Arya = Respected

Putri = daughter.

Oh I get it! You were being sarcastic!!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Jun 2019 08:56

and so it goes on.

these baboo(n)s have no fear of anybody

Jitender Bhargava @JitiBhargava

Ashok Chawla, former Secretary Civil Aviation, Finance & Chairman, Competition Commission of India, when the controversial Jet-Etihad deal was given a green signal, has finally resigned as Independent Director of Jet Airways today. Details of his contribution for transparency?

1:55 AM - 18 Jun 2019

twitter

He seems to be in all the wrong places. Was Director in Yes Bank Board too.

1:58 AM - 18 Jun 2019

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 22 Jun 2019 21:07

Cutting down flight delays: India gets new centralised air traffic flow management system.

India now has a state-of-the-art “air traffic flow management - central command centre” (C-ATFM) that will help balance capacity against
demand for optimum utilisation of resources like airspace and aircraft at capacity-constrained Indian airports. Most airports in India are facing a
massive infra crunch with terminals handling much more passengers than their capacity and this system is expected to cut down on flight delays by synchronising aircraft movement with real time conditions.

India has now become the seventh country to have a centralised air traffic flow management system. This should help ease up conditions at airports with maximum infra shortage — Delhi, Mumbai and Bangalore — and other terminals like Patna and Lucknow which are fast becoming new pain points for flyers.

“The C-ATFM system integrates flight data from various subsystems like ATC Automation System, flight updates and flight update messages. The system also displays weather information along with static information about airports, airspaces and air routes. It processes the demand and capacity information and provides decision-making tools to the ATFM flow manager for collaborative decision making and to ensure regulated flow of traffic at each airport in India,” Airports Authority of India (AAI) said in a statement about the centre that was inaugurated by aviation minister Hardeep Singh Puri at Vasant Kunj, Delhi, on saturday.

“The C-ATFM system is supported by 36 Flow Management Positions (FMP) at various airports including Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai, Kolkata, Bengaluru and Hyderabad among others. Eight defence airports are also part of the ATFM network which are provided with FMPs. After successfully implementing the Air Traffic Flow Management System, India has become the seventh country after the US, Europe, Australia, South Africa, Japan, Brazil,” said the AAI statement.

AAI chairman Guruprasad Mohapatra said: “With the commissioning of the Central Command Centre of the Central Air Traffic Flow Management Complex, we have made a humble beginning today. With this facility, in the next five years, we will be comparable to what the best of the world have to offer.”

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Jun 2019 10:56

Mort Walker wrote:
Vips wrote:It's a plane deal: What does Jet offer in terms of saleable assets.

From the little information in the link: Jet airways owns 16 planes which are worth Rs 5000 Crores.
Seems like at least half of those are parked at BOM, having passed through there on Monday.

looks like some foreign lender may already and legally hold a lien on these aircraft and no Indian lender may be able to get their hands on them. Some gora court has approved this recently.

It did not take any huge IQ to move quickly and get a legal lien on these assets by Indian bankers but some joker has purposely screwed up and let someone else move first.

this is certainly not a coincidence.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 25 Jun 2019 19:18

the US Exim bank has the lien on jet's six Boeing 777 aircraft even though the bank's exposure may barely be 10 odd % (200-300 crores) of the total value of these aircraft at approx 2100 crores.

one of these 777 aircraft may currently be at Amsterdam airport.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jun 2019 20:32

this lien repo men are a cottage industry in west, just as bounty hunters in murica.

if any ac are stranded outside india you can be sure they will be way more agile than our banks

we need to take lessons from the british

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 25 Jun 2019 21:30

Singha wrote:this lien repo men are a cottage industry in west, just as bounty hunters in murica.

if any ac are stranded outside india you can be sure they will be way more agile than our banks

we need to take lessons from the british

only the one 777 is out of India.

the rest is here.

we should have moved quicker.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jun 2019 08:32

why cant the indian govt pass a ordinance that in such cases the indian lenders will have first cut of whatever is on table. UK USA probably have that already and would do it in a heartbeat to benefit their own banks if needed.

why should we be good boys and obey the judgements of rigged foreign commercial courts in such matters ?

its same dhimmi mentality that if yindu x makes a deal with yindu y, they will sign on for arbitration in LONDON for the oh so great british impartiality.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Jun 2019 08:36

almost everyone who conspired to tank Indian aviation is in the picture.

a few UP politicos and bigtime dilli honchos are all that is left to complete the picture

twitter

The unforgettable Maurya Sheraton pasta cooking session of 2007. Almost everyone in the picture is in trouble now including Sunil Bharti Mittal.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jun 2019 09:03

is that malvinder and shivinder brothers of ranbaxy/fortis fame in the back?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Jun 2019 09:04

twitter

Muscle power for flying the 737s! https://www.wsj.com/articles/physical-s ... yptr=yahoo …. In 2006, I had raised a query with JDG, DGCA about minimum height for pilots, when I found my trainee couldn't handle S/E as rudder/brake pedal unreachable. Boeing had responded that it was 5'4"

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Jun 2019 09:06

Singha wrote:is that malvinder and shivinder brothers of ranbaxy/fortis fame in the back?

looks like it.

hard to believe that all of them gathered just to eat pasta cooked by rank amateurs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2019 09:51

Second incident in two days after mangalore
Is our training not adequate to handle monsoon?

A SpiceJet flight from Bhopal to Surat overshot runway at the airport here due to heavy rainfall and wind. All the 43 passengers and four crew members are safe and they are being handled by the SpiceJet officials,” Surat airport director SK Panigrahi said.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 01 Jul 2019 18:32

Singha wrote:is that malvinder and shivinder brothers of ranbaxy/fortis fame in the back?

Ha ha reminded me of the group foto with A Roy, John dyal, Burkha and other uber BIF worthies meet up over buffet.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Jul 2019 18:49

ashbhee wrote:If Jet is liquidated, which is what it looks like will happen, how much money will PSU banks recover / loose? I wonder what percentage of the tax payers money will be recovered.

Funny - the taxpayers have no such qualms when billions are given in loan waivers to farmers - but everyone squeals when a business needs similar assistance.

And then we wonder why India's economy is not growing faster! Jail bharo for industry and vacations for farmers! Is India headed for an agrarian future?

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 01 Jul 2019 19:52

Singha wrote:Second incident in two days after mangalore
Is our training not adequate to handle monsoon?

A SpiceJet flight from Bhopal to Surat overshot runway at the airport here due to heavy rainfall and wind. All the 43 passengers and four crew members are safe and they are being handled by the SpiceJet officials,” Surat airport director SK Panigrahi said.

Mangalore, Calicut, Srinagar, and Leh are challenging and Captain only airports, Mangalore's table top runway dates back over half a decade and really needs to be moved to a flatter terrain, however no developer wants to come forward due to low traffic. Realistically one would need to see the Metar before judging why it went of a 'taxiway'.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Jul 2019 20:21

Strange - what type of aircraft are operating at these airports? Mangalore has a runway length of 7,650 ft from Google Earth. These are longer than Chicago Midway that has icy conditions at time.

Is the runway at Mangalore grooved? What type of NAVAIDs does it have?

Are there centerline taxiway lights at the airport? These help improve pilot's situational awareness. In addition, EMAS systems help to prevent damage during runway overshoots.

manish · Post by **manish** » 01 Jul 2019 21:29

mmasand wrote:
Singha wrote:Second incident in two days after mangalore
Is our training not adequate to handle monsoon?

A SpiceJet flight from Bhopal to Surat overshot runway at the airport here due to heavy rainfall and wind. All the 43 passengers and four crew members are safe and they are being handled by the SpiceJet officials,” Surat airport director SK Panigrahi said.
Mangalore, Calicut, Srinagar, and Leh are challenging and Captain only airports, Mangalore's table top runway dates back over half a decade and really needs to be moved to a flatter terrain, however no developer wants to come forward due to low traffic. Realistically one would need to see the Metar before judging why it went of a 'taxiway'.

Mangalore's terrain makes it pretty much impossible to find 'flat' spaces to build nice big airports at reasonable investments at the present level of traffic. The emergence ofa much bigger and better equipped, modern Kannur Airport close by in its major catchment is also a dampener.

The present primary runway was built quite recenty actually and has ILS at one end, with the entire airport certified to handle widebodies of upto A300-600/B767 size. Although I'm practice, the only widebodies the airport has ever seen are the occasional Haj charters.

What it needs to feel and be safer is investments into lengthening the strip and the Runway End Safety Area (RESA). It's downright criminal on the part of the state government which despite many appeals hasn't moved a muscle almost a decade after the 2010 tragedy to fix this by providing the necessary land parcel.

manish · Post by **manish** » 01 Jul 2019 21:58

Vivek K wrote:Strange - what type of aircraft are operating at these airports? Mangalore has a runway length of 7,650 ft from Google Earth. These are longer than Chicago Midway that has icy conditions at time.

Is the runway at Mangalore grooved? What type of NAVAIDs does it have?

Are there centerline taxiway lights at the airport? These help improve pilot's situational awareness. In addition, EMAS systems help to prevent damage during runway overshoots.

The airport handled around 2.25 million pax last year.

Operating types are almost entirely B737s, A320s, Q400s and ATR72s.

Airport has ILS on its primary runway at one end (CAT I think, not sure) - it's a full fledged international airport and the ATC at Mangalore has control over a fairly large airspace in the region, so I would hazard a guess that the rest of the CNS/ATM equipment also would be pretty decent.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Jul 2019 23:17

So the ILS seemed to work well though they could improve to CAT III (A, B or C) depending upon visibility issues. But since the aircraft landed ok, it probably wasn't the runway system that posed the problem. It could be that in the poor visibility, the cues for the taxiway turn were not adequate and the pilot turned off incorrectly. Therefore in pavement centerline lights could help improve the situation.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 02 Jul 2019 03:00

And we now have a SpiceJet in Jet livery overshoot 09/27 at VABB/BOM. Lots of diversions and cancellations, brace for a domino effect tomorrow.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Jul 2019 03:31

mmasand wrote:And we now have a SpiceJet in Jet livery overshoot 09/27 at VABB/BOM. Lots of diversions and cancellations, brace for a domino effect tomorrow.

I'm guessing it must have landed too far beyond the threshold. 09/27 is 12000 ft long. Much longer than necessary for a 737 even in rainy conditions.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Jul 2019 07:03

manish wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Strange - what type of aircraft are operating at these airports? Mangalore has a runway length of 7,650 ft from Google Earth. These are longer than Chicago Midway that has icy conditions at time.

Is the runway at Mangalore grooved? What type of NAVAIDs does it have?

Are there centerline taxiway lights at the airport? These help improve pilot's situational awareness. In addition, EMAS systems help to prevent damage during runway overshoots.
The airport handled around 2.25 million pax last year.

Operating types are almost entirely B737s, A320s, Q400s and ATR72s.

Airport has ILS on its primary runway at one end (CAT I think, not sure) - it's a full fledged international airport and the ATC at Mangalore has control over a fairly large airspace in the region, so I would hazard a guess that the rest of the CNS/ATM equipment also would be pretty decent.

the runway here is like like a table top with steep drop offs.

It's sometimes disconcerting for operating crews unused to regularly operating out of this airport.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Jul 2019 07:11

nachiket wrote:
mmasand wrote:And we now have a SpiceJet in Jet livery overshoot 09/27 at VABB/BOM. Lots of diversions and cancellations, brace for a domino effect tomorrow.
I'm guessing it must have landed too far beyond the threshold. 09/27 is 12000 ft long. Much longer than necessary for a 737 even in rainy conditions.

the glideslope here is non standard and that sometimes makes it uncomfortable for some crews.

Many of these macho guys don't go around as a matter of prestige.

If at any stage of the approach the crew is not comfortable, it is always best to abandon the approach and go around. This is the safest option as well as the SOP.

unfortunately, many a time, testimonials in the cockpit play a much bigger role than is usually appreciated or even warranted and this is a recipe for disaster.

manish · Post by **manish** » 02 Jul 2019 08:09

mmasand wrote:And we now have a SpiceJet in Jet livery overshoot 09/27 at VABB/BOM. Lots of diversions and cancellations, brace for a domino effect tomorrow.

SpiceJet seems to have a ridiculously high number of such incidents. Even AI Express seems better in this regard. Did they not have a similar excursion at BOM a couple of years ago that threw the entire country's aviation links out of whack for a couple of days? I also remember them totalling a Q400 3-4 years ago at Hubli, people were lucky in that incident.

May be they are just plain unlucky. May be there are larger issues at play here internal to the organisation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2019 08:32

3rd incident in 3 days

Airlines put pressure to save fuel

One engine is shut during taxi nowadays to save fuel esp in turboprops which is visible

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2019 11:08

count so far is 85 cancelled and 54 diverted. will go into 100s by evening.

the other runway is a bit weak in mum?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 02 Jul 2019 11:18

The spicejet failure is embarrassing! overshoot on a 12000 ft runway by a 737 is unheard of. The pilots can land long but generally the touch down zone is lit and has visual cues. So they would have lost a 1,000'. They need to check the crew for blood alcohol content.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2019 12:09

maybe his touchdown was way past the usual due to struggle to align to centerline or came in very high... should have aborted and gone around. the ATC probably has video recordings of all touchdowns for record keeping and incident investigation.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 02 Jul 2019 17:15

Singha wrote:
count so far is 85 cancelled and 54 diverted. will go into 100s by evening.

the other runway is a bit weak in mum?

I guess for accessing the second runway one has to go through the intersection and then positon for take off. This might be taking time with continuos rains.
Blr is lucky soon it will get 4k parallel runway.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 02 Jul 2019 19:28

From several pilots in a WhatsApp group this morning BOM has one of the most efficient systems, and a fairly long runway and displaced threshold to arrest any excursions. Several fleet training captains have raised a safety notice to all pilots to increase their compensation from 15% to 20% and upwards (strict weight and fuel calculations).

Unconfirmed but some pilots did report runway may have had over 3mm of water which reduces braking action considerably and nose gear tends to hydroplane. Several airlines including the IAF An-32 have had these incidents, sadly DGCA is just a signboard outside an office that will brush aside any work they may have to do.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 02 Jul 2019 22:24

Singha wrote:maybe his touchdown was way past the usual due to struggle to align to centerline or came in very high... should have aborted and gone around. the ATC probably has video recordings of all touchdowns for record keeping and incident investigation.

If alignment with centerline was a problem, then that would be because of high crosswinds. There is talk of water ponding on the runway. How is that possible? That would mean a bad design with inappropriate cross slopes and inadequate drainage infrastructure.

Something not right with the airport design!!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Jul 2019 23:05

After speaking with folks back home, there seems to have been an insane amount of rain in Mumbai during the period in question. So my earlier guess about landing too far beyond the threshold may not be a good one. It is possible that there was just too much water on the runway for the aircraft to stop even if the touchdown point was just past the limit. Of course it is upto the pilots to recognize the unsafe situation and go around which they did not.

Vivek I don't think we can blame airport or runway design entirely. The drainage is poor all over the city due to geography and the 100 year old sewage system. The entire city was flooded.