Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 01 Jul 2019 19:03

Found this one year old interesting talk by Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa...
Topic: The role of IAF in changing the security environment
https://youtu.be/ooE8vLRfvVo
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I'm mainly sharing it for Chief's comments on Tejas starting from 1:12:00 in the video...

We are pursuing Tejas. What have we got in the Mk1 FOC and what have we got in Mk1A...??? In Mk1A, the BVR capability is going to take a significant jump. The electronic capability is going to take a significant jump. And in Mk2, the range and maneuverability issues will be addressed...

The thing is, IAF sees Tejas development as a step by step development... (I guess this is what is being asked from lot of ppl here...)
Mk1/1A has smaller range and also some constraints in maneuverability... That's the reason IAF is looking towards Mk2...
Also note that he never said Mk1A is a bad aircraft... He just mentioned 2 constraints in it... They didn't order more Mk1s simply because there was no urgent or desperate requirement... Those 4 squadrons of Mk1A are enough until Mk2 is ready...
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I also believe that it is waste of money to simply buy jets (whether indigenous or foreign) when there is no desperate requirement and when a better indegenous jet is available 10 years down the line...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Jul 2019 19:07

Quite Frankly there is a huge requirement for Aircraft. Its not about defending our airspace but eliminating the Pakistani threat. For that we need complete air dominance quickly, which requires setting up huge domestic manufacturing capability.

I guess it is a different mindset which jingos have to see an end to the Pakistani threat vs having enough capability that Pakistan cannot attack us.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Jul 2019 19:33

Rohitji - thanks for the info.Again like I've said before, the access to such rich information is the reason a lot of us visit BRF. Bear in mind these (datapoints) are the AVM's opinion.

The question that comes to mind is if the obstacles were Kurt Tank and (some at) HAL, why weren't they fired? From dinesk kumar's post in the kaveri thread

The GTRE delivered a 29 KN version with reheat for the project. The thrust was sufficient to transform Marut to it's full potential.

When IAF/HAL/GOI had access to this hardware, the failure of not putting it to use - is sad at best! Think of what was at stake - had the Marut been exploited to its fullest potential, it would have laid the foundation for the LCA and perhaps many more aircraft, an aerospace industry and self sufficiency in airframes, avionics and engines. Lesson: don't give up half way like in the case of the Marut. We woud do well to remember this lesson of history.

And you take criticism in wrong vein. Criticism is made with a hope to provide another perspective and the possibility of modifying behavior.

Added Later: The more I read the AVM's book, the more he expresses similar sentiments about the Jaguar purchase, the indifference of some IAF officials, the efforts of HAL against the success of the Marut. So what did you not like about my post? It would seem he was fighting an invisible import lobby that was more powerful than GTRE.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jul 2019 21:12

See without understanding the fact that aircraft purchases were a major Congress funding mechanism all these moves look incomprehensible.
As for Kurt Tank distaste for Orpheus re-heat don't forget his colleague Brandner had a jet turbine being made in Egypt that got kabash. Orpheus re-heat would prevent that purchase and then there was Nehruvian dream of engines by Egypt and planes by India as a non-aligned armament complex.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jul 2019 21:17

fanne wrote:My understanding is that 42 SQ is just about enough from 1980s perspective when we have fought 1 full and 1/2 war on China front, where IAF probably did nothing much other than provide very shallow CAS and air dominance against non existent chicom air force so that transportation (planes and helicopter) can go unhindered.
What has changed since then is Chinese now have a legitimate air force of couple of sq and an airforce with many high performance fighter that they can be located in Tibet. In a hot war at least expect 100 Chinese air planes (against odd 30 as of now and almost 0 from 1980s/1990s). That will itself require, 200 high performance planes from IAF to counter (10 Sq). If anything we need additional 10+42=52 SQ air force. With TSPAF with 75-90 F-16s, some 100 odd JF-17 (and counting) and some another 200 other planes, we need 42 to dominate the air and be very effective on the ground and sea (unless IAF limits itself just to air dominance, then lower numbers are needed). With 150 or so Mig21/27 retiring in few years and 200 planes short at 42 sq (what to say about 52), we are short of 350 planes in the next decade (at least), no matter what you do, MMCRA-2, additional rafale, 2nd hand Mig 29, there is a scope of 200 LCAMK1/2/3 (and it will take 15 years for IAF/HAL/ADA/MOD to get there, it seams everyone is working against the LCA). There is no denying around that fact. that still leaves additional 150 to be filled- MMCRA-2, additional rafale, 2nd hand Mig 29 (SU30MKI is a bad choice, we have enough of it, we should spend money in upgrade, so that it can do what Rafale is supposed to do, good thing is it can, given the right upgrade)

Right after 1962 war IAF strength was 26 squadrons. There as a joint UK-US-India exercise called Sikhshak which had intensive air operations and combat simulations. Net result was decision to expand to 45 squadrons for a two front war, in reality these numbers barely have 1 1/2 front war. Offensive on one front and defensive on the other.
Please not if you pay attention to the big exercises the mix is 30 squadrons for one front and 15 for the other.
And a shift to the defensive from to bring it up to 30 squadrons.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Jul 2019 22:49

That is why India sees to order 10 MK1 squadrons ASAP. Ad these ca be built to progressively higher standards as the platform evolves. With additional lines and commitment, the target could be achieved earlier than currently estimated.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Jul 2019 00:19

if that is right, we need 60 Sq (an IDSA paper also makes the case of same sq). This is to give full offensive role in 2 front war (which may be coming very fast, with chines reserve divisions practicing with TSPA, same aircraft in both forces...). Towards that, we have only 30 sq (of which we will retire 7 sq). We need nearly 800 fighters in say next 20 years. Tell me if we can get that number without a heavy mix of LCA mk 1/2/3/x. Even at 42 we need some 450 aircraft in next 10 years. Only if HAL will reduce the unit price, ADA will get Mk2, IAF will accept not the gold standard but silver, only if MOD can understand the constraints and work through it, only if uttam with Astra can be done faster, only if HAL can have an extra line, only if GTRE can have an engine that is there when caatsa kicks in. It is a plane failing because we are missing a visionary like Shri Parrikar ji. We don't have to succeed (we already have), we have to stop from failing.

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jul 2019 03:11

fanne wrote:...Only if HAL will reduce the unit price...

We expect desi companies to produce things at below cost or very low margins. Yet are willing to pay top dollars for foreign goods. ROI and profitability enable a company to invest in future projects. For example, R&D of HTT-40 with its own funds (not GoI’s nor IAF’s).

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 02 Jul 2019 08:42

fanne wrote:My understanding is that 42 SQ is just about enough from 1980s perspective when we have fought 1 full and 1/2 war on China front, where IAF probably did nothing much other than provide very shallow CAS and air dominance against non existent chicom air force so that transportation (planes and helicopter) can go unhindered.
What has changed since then is Chinese now have a legitimate air force of couple of sq and an airforce with many high performance fighter that they can be located in Tibet. In a hot war at least expect 100 Chinese air planes (against odd 30 as of now and almost 0 from 1980s/1990s). That will itself require, 200 high performance planes from IAF to counter (10 Sq). If anything we need additional 10+42=52 SQ air force. With TSPAF with 75-90 F-16s, some 100 odd JF-17 (and counting) and some another 200 other planes, we need 42 to dominate the air and be very effective on the ground and sea (unless IAF limits itself just to air dominance, then lower numbers are needed). With 150 or so Mig21/27 retiring in few years and 200 planes short at 42 sq (what to say about 52), we are short of 350 planes in the next decade (at least), no matter what you do, MMCRA-2, additional rafale, 2nd hand Mig 29, there is a scope of 200 LCAMK1/2/3 (and it will take 15 years for IAF/HAL/ADA/MOD to get there, it seams everyone is working against the LCA). There is no denying around that fact. that still leaves additional 150 to be filled- MMCRA-2, additional rafale, 2nd hand Mig 29 (SU30MKI is a bad choice, we have enough of it, we should spend money in upgrade, so that it can do what Rafale is supposed to do, good thing is it can, given the right upgrade)

I doubt IAF operates in 2020 from a 1980 perspective...
Back in 80s, India didn't have true multirole fighters except M2ks and BVR capability was barely available...
Things have changed a lot in terms of technology...
The radar technology, AWACs and SAMs have also improved a lot...

In the video I shared, Dhanoa ji repeatedly said that 42 squadrons is required for 'Full spectrum of operations on 2 fronts'...
With current strength of 31, they can overwhelm PAF while defending the Chinese front...
They have a carefully prepared operational document in place... And I'm pretty sure they took all contingencies into account while preparing it...

In another link shared by someone in previous page, IAF is planning to have full strength of 42 squadrons only by 2040...
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Anyways, sufficiency of Squadron strength can only be answered by ppl who have inside knowledge of operations of IAF...
I think all we Mango ppl can do is try to connect dots based on information available in public...

Nevertheless, the more the merrier...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2019 10:40

is HAL and ASTE pushing ahead with qualifying the hawks for a2g uses ?
I saw two of them circling repeatedly over HAL apt today making touch & go.

being AJT all of the rockets and CCIP delivery bombs would already be qualified for hawks. and being tactics trainers they would also have some forms of self defence like chaff, flares, RWR.

for the holy cause of unleashing as much hell as we can within a short 10-14 day war, we do need the additional throw weight that hawks bring to the table. while the dogs fight , even cats can sneak into unguarded areas and do a lot of damage.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Jul 2019 11:16

But with DDM and Mass Media having an effect, we cannot deny this, most people impressions are but by what is seen in social media, Electronic Media, Print media and Movies. It took us many years on BRF to have some idea about the truth. Even today we dont know how the import commission mafia networks run.

I remember some western pawan hans helicopter will crash, ALH will be blamed by posters on BRF. Similarly, crashes of western made Helicopters are under reported.

Take this article today, a drop tank is conveniently put as fuel tank, dropping a drop tank in a field is not an extraordinary event, but is reported as such. This is not ignorance but part of a larger misinformation campaign

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... mig/446972

Fuel tank of an Indian Air Force jet fell in a field in Tamil Nadu on Tuesday morning. The incident happened when the plane was airborne.

It was reported that the fuel tank of the indigenously-developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas fell in farm land near Sulur air base. The incident happened when the aircraft was undertaking a flight.
More to follow…

Such reports do affect decision makers at some level.

Unless everyone aligns with national goals it can never work.

Interesting thing to note is that the Pylon has fallen along with 1200 liter drop tank, so that IAF is probably testing carrying 1200 liter drop tanks under wing, which was previously rated for the 800 liter drop tanks, the 1200 liter drop tank is used to be under wing. Must be plan to carry these for long range penetration missions.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2019 12:16

are there gunnery and bombing ranges in south india - where do the trainees from bidar train at?

I feel these drop tests should be planned events with people onsite to call in the drop after range safety checks than just drop in empty fields nearby for the rumor mills on whatsapp & tiktok to make it viral.

another option is some empty earth area near the runway like the amritsar jaguar did.

even a empty tank can demolish a house and cause fatal injuries

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jul 2019 14:27

^^^
If it was a drop test, they will do so at a specified test range.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Jul 2019 14:29

Maybe the heavier tank with the Pylon, but similair incidents are not reported.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jul 2019 17:03

Singha wrote:is HAL and ASTE pushing ahead with qualifying the hawks for a2g uses ?
I saw two of them circling repeatedly over HAL apt today making touch & go.

They're already qualified for this role.

If you remember, there was news of one of the three women fighter pilots being posted to Hawks squadron at Air Force Academy. This squadron, apart from QFI which train the pilots, also has standard pilots on roll. Referred to as Squadron pilots. These pilots are trained to exploit Hawks aircraft in all possible roles.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Jul 2019 23:35

Aditya_V wrote:Maybe the heavier tank with the Pylon, but similair incidents are not reported.

Very recently Dabolim airport was closed for several hours after a drop tank fell off a departing IN Mig-29K and caught fire (see below).

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Jul 2019 00:12

Come to think of it, can the wing carry 1200 ltr drop tanks? I thought it was only at the center pylon.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Jul 2019 11:44

Yes the innermost Wing pylons can carry the 1200 liter drop tanks.

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Jul 2019 03:45

nam wrote:Come to think of it, can the wing carry 1200 ltr drop tanks? I thought it was only at the center pylon.

Two 1200-ltr tanks.

Two 800-ltr tanks

Centerline pylon is 725-ltr tank.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2019 09:06

looks like even part of the pylon came off

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Jul 2019 20:29

Ooops! That's a no-no if the pylon broke off with the tank.Tanks jettisoned by accident often happens, but a pylon? The wing may have suffered some damage.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 05 Jul 2019 00:58

Arunchal Everester recalls the harrowing effort to retrieve bodies of 13 IAF crash victims
https://scroll.in/article/929193/heartb ... -arunachal

Media reports about an Indian Air Force AN-32 plane going missing with 13 men aboard in Arunachal Pradesh on June 3 prompted Taka Tamut, a 27-year-old Everester from the state, to volunteer for a mission to search for survivors. As the effort stretched on for 18 days, bad weather at the crash site in Siang left Tamut and others in the 15-member team stranded, requiring them to eventually be airlifted themselves. When the mission finally ended, the young mountaineer described his experiences in a phone conversation.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 05 Jul 2019 01:04

Coverage on this massive exercise was very limited.

Indian Air Force plans major drills in J&K involving large contingent of fighters, warns Pakistan against any misadventure
https://m.republicworld.com/india-news/ ... sadventure

The drill will check response time of the fighter aircraft fleet and the fleets will carry out an extensive drill over entire Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh divisions. Squadrons of Su-30MKi from Punjab and Haryana and Mirage 2000 aircraft will take part in the drills The actions will take place in coordination with the air defence units of the Army deployed along the border and other combat elements of ground forces.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Jul 2019 07:23

g.sarkar wrote:Arunchal Everester recalls the harrowing effort to retrieve bodies of 13 IAF crash victims
https://scroll.in/article/929193/heartb ... -arunachal

Media reports about an Indian Air Force AN-32 plane going missing with 13 men aboard in Arunachal Pradesh on June 3 prompted Taka Tamut, a 27-year-old Everester from the state, to volunteer. . .

Salute to Tamut. Extraordinary.

Dinabandhu Patra · Post by **Dinabandhu Patra** » 05 Jul 2019 10:07

It's a story that needs to be made into a movie... RIP, brave warriors. Jai Hind.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 05 Jul 2019 15:26

MeshaVishwas wrote:Coverage on this massive exercise was very limited.

Indian Air Force plans major drills in J&K involving large contingent of fighters, warns Pakistan against any misadventure
https://m.republicworld.com/india-news/ ... sadventure

The drill will check response time of the fighter aircraft fleet and the fleets will carry out an extensive drill over entire Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh divisions. Squadrons of Su-30MKi from Punjab and Haryana and Mirage 2000 aircraft will take part in the drills The actions will take place in coordination with the air defence units of the Army deployed along the border and other combat elements of ground forces.

Could this be to update ROE in light of recent contact with PAF's flying mujahids

Arun.prabhu · Post by **Arun.prabhu** » 05 Jul 2019 21:29

ArjunPandit wrote:Could this be to update ROE in light of recent contact with PAF's flying mujahids

I’m assuming they have made operational changes and are testing to see how effective the changes are. This is also saber rattling to show we’re ready for another incursion.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 05 Jul 2019 21:41

If I were to guess -
1) Effectiveness of new ROE - including all elements of Army Air defense (no blue on blue)
2) Quick response, coordination and engagement pattern (what to do in various scenarios, IAF would have brainstormed, gamed TSPAF responses and now are practicing it (or uncovering holes in the plan)
3)Perhaps testing any new silent acquisition - new AA missile and maybe some air defense unit
4) Message to TSP(A/F)

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Jul 2019 13:12

Some images from Exercise Garuda 2019 being held at Mont-de-Marsan in France

Pics credit to the respective owners

French pilot in Su-30MKI back seat

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Jul 2019 13:15

Some excellent Su-30MKI images from Exercise Garuda 2019. Pic credits to the respective owners. Open them in a new window to see them in full size.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Jul 2019 13:19

More images from Exercise Garuda 2019. Pic credit to respective owners

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Jul 2019 13:27

IAF pilot Sqdn Ldr Sourabh Ambure flew in the FAF Rafale aircraft. from IAF's FB page

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Jul 2019 18:20

Mirage-2000 I of No.7 Battle Axes squadron with the Spice-2000 and R-73E CCMs.

Mirage-2000 I of the No.1 Tigers squadron with the MICA missile mounted on fuselage pylons

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 06 Jul 2019 19:52

Thanks for the share, Saar.
The Rambhas do look graceful.
And good observation on the Vajra.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Jul 2019 10:00

Quite frankly, this 114 import 4th gen aircraft when everyone is inducting 5th gen is going to get us now , 4th gen can be used for LCA since we are building our industry which we can integrate with building AMCA is 8-10 years down the line.

But we will never understand these piecemeal non strategic acquisitions

IAF pushes Rs 1.5 lakh cr ‘Make In India’ deals for 170 aircraft

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jul 2019 12:10

Read the report.It also says that it will take " several years" before the bird is selected. Ye Gods! We will be choosing a 4th- gen bird- in some cases 3rd-gen birds with heavy makeup ,when 5th- gen birds are flying. The least the IAF could've done was to plan for the induction of a sqd. or two of SU-57s Mk-1 just as we're doing with Tejas .We did the same with the SU-30 when it came, turning it into the MKI after the first 2 tranches.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 08 Jul 2019 14:25

But Sir, they did evaluate it, didn't they? And found it less than satisfactory to what was being promised.

They are probably waiting to see if and when it matures into a genuine 5th Gen (as per the US definition).

At the worst, it will probably be more capable than the Su 30, in flight dynamics. And a real all round potent platform in MKI form.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 08 Jul 2019 18:48

Instead of throwing money around - crank out more LCAs set up more lines, improve logistics for its after sales etc. Instead of wasting 3 -5 years on trials and then face a change in GOI delaying the acquisition of NMKI i.e. screw(india)drivergiri.

Setup additional lines to double LCA production capacity and build 50 aircraft a year. Don't waste money on NMKI.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Jul 2019 02:59

Kartik wrote:Mirage-2000 I of No.7 Battle Axes squadron with the Spice-2000 and R-73E CCMs.

That’s Matra Magic 2 missile and the aircraft is H model. The frequent mis-identification of Magic 2 as R-73 has led to the rumour of Russian missiles on IAF Mirages.

Kartik wrote:Mirage-2000 I of the No.1 Tigers squadron with the MICA missile mounted on fuselage pylons

This is a Super 530D missile and the aircraft is older H Model. The missile is broader than a MICA.

Upgraded I model has been delivered only to No 9 Squadron Wolfpack.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2019 08:22

That's likely a R73E. Mirages received that modification quite a while back. It comes with the R73E adapter as well. Magics are most likely withdrawn from service, one of the key reasons for ASRAAM for Jaguars.