VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

[Ravi Karumanchiri]

Pakistan Pilots Trained To Fly Rafales? Report Raises Worry For India
Pakistani pilots being exposed to the Rafale platform could be problematic for the Indian Air Force, which receives its first Rafale jets in September this year

All India | Written by Vishnu Som | Updated: April 11, 2019 10:24 IST

<SNIP>

The request for a clarification (also sent to Dassault's corporate headquarters) comes after ainonline.com, an independent media firm which focusses on the aviation sector, reported that "the first batch of pilots trained for Qatar in November 2017 were Pakistani exchange officers." According to Jon Lake, the author of the piece, "Escadron de Chasse 04.030 was established at Mont-de-Marsan as the Qatar Rafale Squadron on Oct. 1, 2017."

Qatar took the delivery of its first Rafale at Dassault's Merignac facility on February 6. In a press statement, Dassault had said Qatar had signed up for 24 Rafale fighters in May 2015. In December 2017, it ordered an additional 12 fighters. The deal for the first 24 fighters is valued at euro 6.3 billion.

Pakistani military personnel have been deputed to operate with the armed forces of several Middle Eastern countries for decades. Pakistan has also received military hardware from partner nations including Jordan, which has supplied Islamabad with 13 additional F-16 A/B fighters, some of which may have been used by the Pakistan Air Force during its failed attack on Indian military targets along the Line of Control on February 27.

In January 2018, the Pakistani news portal http://www.thenews.com.pk reported the visit of the Commander of the Qatar Emiri Air Force to the Pakistan Air Force Headquarters in Islamabad. Pakistan's Air Chief reportedly "offered support and cooperation in the field of aviation and military training" to his counterpart.

<SNIP>

"They would understand the various modes, the look up, look down, compatibility," says Anshuman Mainkar, a former Indian Air Force MiG-27 pilot with more than a decade of experience in flying combat aircraft. "They will know how the weapon system works, and how resistant it is to being jammed."

<SNIP>

[MeshaVishwas]

^^
Fake news.
https://twitter.com/FranceinIndia/statu ... 89216?s=19

[Karan M]

Karan, you should see the rhona-dhona on twitter. My oh my!

You cannot escape this. Just a fact. Take a look at all the seven aircraft in the competition;

1) F-16: Enough Said
2) F-18 Super Hornet: Flown by the Kuwaiti Air Force
3) Typhoon: Flown by Saudi Arabia
4) Su-35: China
5) Rafale: Qatar, as indicated above
6) MiG-35: Nobody wants this
7) Gripen E: Still in IOC mode, but I am sure the Paks will get their hands on via some rich Gulf nation

MiG-35 is flown by the Egyptians, 46 ordered. Now they have ordered some 24x Su-35 as well. They have some 200 F-16s, plus some Mirage 2000s, now the Rafale.

[Karan M]

Well it is still better than buying the F-16, which we are still somehow looking at for the new MRCA boondoggle. PAF has 30 plus years experience on the type and know the performance parameters inside out. Yet that didn't disqualify it. So I guess the IAF won't be too concerned about a few pakis getting trained on the Rafale.

We could not alienate LM just because the PAF flies it. So best to let it compete and then reject it outright, just like in the first MMRCA contest.

Sometimes you need to advertise your capability in this manner. Let the Paks know, what the Rafale is capable of doing. All the more better.

We just ordered 24 MH-60R from LockMart to compensate for their F-16 we shot down. They should buy 24x Tejas in return for the Bison.

[chola]

Karan, you should see the rhona-dhona on twitter. My oh my!

You cannot escape this. Just a fact. Take a look at all the seven aircraft in the competition;

1) F-16: Enough Said
2) F-18 Super Hornet: Flown by the Kuwaiti Air Force
3) Typhoon: Flown by Saudi Arabia
4) Su-35: China
5) Rafale: Qatar, as indicated above
6) MiG-35: Nobody wants this
7) Gripen E: Still in IOC mode, but I am sure the Paks will get their hands on via some rich Gulf nation

MiG-35 is flown by the Egyptians, 46 ordered. Now they have ordered some 24x Su-35 as well. They have some 200 F-16s, plus some Mirage 2000s, now the Rafale.

Potent force, the Egyptians. And a bigger zoo than even ours when people are complaining about types. lol

200(!) F-Solahs plus SU-35 and Rafale? A Paki would spasm and die in the presense of this menagerie.

[Pratyush]

Karan, you should see the rhona-dhona on twitter. My oh my!

You cannot escape this. Just a fact. Take a look at all the seven aircraft in the competition;

1) F-16: Enough Said
2) F-18 Super Hornet: Flown by the Kuwaiti Air Force
3) Typhoon: Flown by Saudi Arabia
4) Su-35: China
5) Rafale: Qatar, as indicated above
6) MiG-35: Nobody wants this
7) Gripen E: Still in IOC mode, but I am sure the Paks will get their hands on via some rich Gulf nation

MiG-35 is flown by the Egyptians, 46 ordered. Now they have ordered some 24x Su-35 as well. They have some 200 F-16s, plus some Mirage 2000s, now the Rafale.

The only way to avoid this is to have totally a domestic force.

But if we do that it would mean no more komissions.

[Karan M]

MiG-35 is flown by the Egyptians, 46 ordered. Now they have ordered some 24x Su-35 as well. They have some 200 F-16s, plus some Mirage 2000s, now the Rafale.

Potent force, the Egyptians. And a bigger zoo than even ours when people are complaining about types. lol

200(!) F-Solahs plus SU-35 and Rafale? A Paki would spasm and die in the presense of this menagerie.

Apparently, they are the only ones in the ME who actually fought the Israelis and managed to inflict some royal pain. The Jordanians are also rans. Hence the Arab states all dip into their pockets and finance the Egyptians. The Egyptians also practice dual sourcing for the same reason, they are suspicious that in a fight up between them and the Israelis, the US may with hold support. Hence the Mirage 2000s, Rafale, Su-35 and MiG-35. Remember, the F-16s and US gear was a replacement for all the free Russian stuff, post Camp David accords.

[chola]

Potent force, the Egyptians. And a bigger zoo than even ours when people are complaining about types. lol

200(!) F-Solahs plus SU-35 and Rafale? A Paki would spasm and die in the presense of this menagerie.

Apparently, they are the only ones in the ME who actually fought the Israelis and managed to inflict some royal pain. The Jordanians are also rans. Hence the Arab states all dip into their pockets and finance the Egyptians. The Egyptians also practice dual sourcing for the same reason, they are suspicious that in a fight up between them and the Israelis, the US may with hold support. Hence the Mirage 2000s, Rafale, Su-35 and MiG-35. Remember, the F-16s and US gear was a replacement for all the free Russian stuff, post Camp David accords.

Great point, Karan ji. Unfortunately, it means the Pakis do have theoritical access to DACT of pretty much every important type on the market save the 5th gens.

[Vips]

Guys it is too rich to imagine the GCC countries will give unlimited or full access to pakis to their latest jewels. In the past it may have been so, but now situation is totally different. India has increased heft with these countries and they are investing in our strategic reserves. India is an attractive market for the GCC to park their surplus/sovereign funds, while pakistan is a basket case begging them for funds. UAE, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have drastically cut on their intake of Pakis in their country with Kuwait not even giving visas to them. Saudi may give access to pakis but that is a big maybe. Why would Egypt do anything for the Pakis?

[Aditya_V]

Look Now a days GCC countries have thier own Nationals as Pilots and Ground crew are from retired Western Country airforces, Pakis just claimed what thier wet dream was telling them

[mmasand]

Guys it is too rich to imagine the GCC countries will give unlimited or full access to pakis to their latest jewels. In the past it may have been so, but now situation is totally different. India has increased heft with these countries and they are investing in our strategic reserves. India is an attractive market for the GCC to park their surplus/sovereign funds, while pakistan is a basket case begging them for funds. UAE, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have drastically cut on their intake of Pakis in their country with Kuwait not even giving visas to them. Saudi may give access to pakis but that is a big maybe. Why would Egypt do anything for the Pakis?

+102

Whilst some remain in the AF, merely trainers and engineering support. Almost all in combat roles have seen better days. There sentiment has drastically changed in the last 2-4 years.

[Lilo]

Pakistan Air Force flying Rafales report originated in jihadi website
The French embassy in New Delhi quickly denied Pakistani pilots were trained to fly the Rafale aircraft for the Amiri Air Force.
Rakesh Krishnan April 14, 2019

....
In order to get to the bottom of the story, I emailed AIN Executive Editor Marks Phelps about the veracity of Lake's report, considering the French envoy had described it as "fake news". Phelps replied: "I've been in touch with our Defence Editor, and he told me he's removed the reference to Pakistan from the story, but provided this link to a report."

The link provided by Phelps takes you to a website named WAFF - World Armed Forces Forum. Owned by Mike M, it describes itself as a "free speech forum which is now among the most popular on the internet". It claims to have "thousands of members from 140 countries".

After my email, AIN removed the reference to the Pakistani air force officers from its story, indicating that it no longer trusts the authenticity of the source.

Phelps also provided a link to an Arabic language website Youm7 (Seventh Day) from where WAFF had obtained the original information about Pakistani air force officers being trained in Paris to fly Rafales. This Egyptian website seems to be the original cause of the kerfuffle.
.....
Lake responded: "I merely repeated the report on the Arabic language news website Seventh Day (Youm7) which was reposted on WAFF."
.....
London's The Guardian describes the Seventh Day as "one of Egypt's most modern news organisations" and its Editor in Chief Khaled Salah as "an unlikely jihadist". Writing about his experiences on his website the Egyptian says he "fell for the bait of extremist thoughts... I was ready to be martyred for God's Sharia".

Salah has gone to prison several times for plotting the overthrow of President Hosni Mubarak "in order to free the Egyptian army to join the struggle to retake Jerusalem for Islam".
An email has been sent to Cairo-based Seventh Day and a reply from Salah is awaited.

(The author is a New Zealand-based defence and foreign affairs analyst)

Can we compile a list of Indian defence presstitutes who jumped at this "Rafale flown by Paki pilots story" while peddling "their" respective foreign agency's wares which could have better replaced Rafale?
Will be a good exercise to separate wheat from the chaff - too many defence "eggspurts" masquerading around these days.

[Manish_Sharma]

^Vishnu Som also one of experts, later he retracted

[Rakesh]

The Irony!!!

Look at top right hand corner and then look at the photograph (or in which order you want!!!)....

[Kakarat]

IAF chief's squadron to be first Rafale combat aircraft unit

New Delhi (India), May 29 (ANI): The first Rafale combat aircraft would be inducted into the Indian Air Force's 'Golden Arrows' 17 Squadron which was commanded by Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa during the Kargil war in 1999.

[Rakesh]

Everything why the IAF chose the Rafale in the technical downselect has been summed by the French Minister.

Rafale to be a better tool for sovereignity of India, says French Minister Lemoyne
https://www.businesstoday.in/current/wo ... 55013.html

"The French government doesn't care about controversies and we've a roadmap, we just want to deliver. It's in the interest of the two countries. Rafale is a tool for better sovereignty for India," Lemoyne said.

[Kashi]

It's not for the French minister to decide or comment on matters of our sovereignty. I wish this was something lost in translation.

[rkhanna]

It's not for the French minister to decide or comment on matters of our sovereignty. I wish this was something lost in translation.

He did not.

You can roughly take the translation as - The Rafale is an instrument to enhance the national security of India -

[Rakesh]

Interesting news...

Dassault Aviation likely to start making Rafale parts in India this year for global clients
https://theprint.in/defence/dassault-av ... ts/248402/

[Rakesh]

Website is not permitting cut-and-paste.

IAF to get Rafale fighter jets in September, flight to India next May
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 033753.cms

Senior air force officers say that the performance of the Rafale — specially the exceptional Meteor missile that out ranges every Pakistani air force jet and the SCALP that can virtually cover every inch of the neighbouring nation — makes a case for inducting the fighters in greater numbers.

[Rakesh]

Rafale to be part of IAF war games with France
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/r ... 2019-06-25

[Cybaru]

Redemption time - order 4 squadrons and call it a day - do it now - opposition will make noise - give them as much window as possible so it is boring by the time it is voting time.

[Rakesh]

Amen! Well said Cybaru! Do another G2G deal and end this MMRCA tamasha.

[Rakesh]

First Rafale to be delivered in 2 months: French Ambassador
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/fir ... 33099.html

"The first Rafale will be delivered to the Indian Air Force (IAF) in two months from now, I think in September, perfectly on time. Thirty six will come within the next two years," Ziegler said.

[Rakesh]

Sortie pour un Rafale indien à Mérignac
http://www.paxaquitania.fr/2019/07/sort ... l?spref=tw

English Translation of the above article ---> https://translate.google.com/translate? ... spref%3Dtw

https://twitter.com/Tom_Antonov/status/ ... 7700458500 ---> On July 17, the first twin-seat Rafale jet (RB 001) built for the Indian Air Force conducted its first flight at Merignac, France.

[ramana]

Rakesh,
I think IAF will get 18 to 36 Rafales.
Depends on their learning.

[naird]

A pretty cool podcast from Rafale fighter pilot. Some interesting tidbits such as pulling 11G's , Rafales for export customers and others. But mostly its casual. Also love the fact that how the pilot snidely says that Rafale has shot down many typhoons and sh's.

[Kartik]

Sortie pour un Rafale indien à Mérignac
http://www.paxaquitania.fr/2019/07/sort ... l?spref=tw

English Translation of the above article ---> https://translate.google.com/translate? ... spref%3Dtw

https://twitter.com/Tom_Antonov/status/ ... 7700458500 ---> On July 17, the first twin-seat Rafale jet (RB 001) built for the Indian Air Force conducted its first flight at Merignac, France.

Thank you! What a beauty! Can't wait to see her sport IAF roundels and fin flash. I had built from scratch, an all grey (not sure exactly what shade of grey this one is though) Rafale twin seater model wayyy back in 2002, and never put any roundels or fin flash on her because I always wanted it to be IAF colors and I never imagined I would see that happen. Some teen fantasies do come true!

800 flights till January 2021 to support pilot and technician training. Must also include testing of the India-Specific Enhancements.

I wonder what is the criteria for pilots selected to train on the Rafale and be deputed to Rafale squadrons- Mirage experience being given premium for example? Given that these are the latest and most modern jets in the IAF when they'll be inducted, I suppose the first batch will be the cream of the cream and there must have been plenty of pilots interested to be selected for the type. And then once these guys gain adequate experience to become instructors, only then will the younger pilots with less experience start on the type. Those instructors would then form the nucleus of future MRCA (hopefully Rafale) squadrons.

For technicians it will definitely be a plus to have Mirage-2000 experience, given that procedures and techniques may be somewhat evolutionary from the Mirage-2000. Can't see a radical shift away from what was done on the Mirage-2000. Whereas the Russian jets have a very different philosophy towards maintenance. But of course one can learn.

[Cain Marko]

Amen! Well said Cybaru! Do another G2G deal and end this MMRCA tamasha.

If one were to guess future orders...
36 Rafale + 20 Mig 29SMT + 18 MKI -> IAF
57 Shornet/Mig 29K -> IN

[Rakesh]

800 flights till January 2021 to support pilot and technician training. Must also include testing of the India-Specific Enhancements.

Yes. This particular Rafale will be the last one to be delivered to the IAF in March of 2022 I believe.

I wonder what is the criteria for pilots selected to train on the Rafale and be deputed to Rafale squadrons- Mirage experience being given premium for example? Given that these are the latest and most modern jets in the IAF when they'll be inducted, I suppose the first batch will be the cream of the cream and there must have been plenty of pilots interested to be selected for the type. And then once these guys gain adequate experience to become instructors, only then will the younger pilots with less experience start on the type. Those instructors would then form the nucleus of future MRCA (hopefully Rafale) squadrons.

Yes. Based on Rafale conversion in the French Air Force, their M2K pilots found the transition from M2K to Rafale fairly easy. The same will happen with the IAF. Expect Jaguar pilots to also come on board as well. These first batch of pilots will indeed form the nucleus of the Rafale instructor team. And just like in the M2K team of the 80s, many of them will rise to become Air Marshals (Anil Chopra, PS Ahluwalia, etc) and a select few even as Air Chief Marshal (i.e. AY Tipnis).

[Rakesh]

Amen! Well said Cybaru! Do another G2G deal and end this MMRCA tamasha.

If one were to guess future orders...
36 Rafale + 20 Mig 29SMT + 18 MKI -> IAF

That will be the end of MMRCA, in its current form.

57 Shornet/Mig 29K -> IN

If it is between those two, capability wise...hands down the Shornet.

There is not a single measure (even on cost), where the MiG-29K comes out on top. On unit cost the MiG-29K will be cheaper, but what is the point if she is going to be sitting on the carrier deck most of her life?

The F-18 is a proven bird. That is a no contest decision. The geopolitics is a different story though

[Cybaru]

If we were to add

47 Raffies +
12 Qatari Mirages / FrAF stock
18 MKI
21 Mig29IAF standard
20 Extra LCA Mk1A
-----
118 New fighters in the next few years to retire some of the older birds

[ramana]

Rakesh, Is Rafale M ruled out for IN requirement?

You folks think F18 or Mig 29K only?

[kit]

MiG-35 is flown by the Egyptians, 46 ordered. Now they have ordered some 24x Su-35 as well. They have some 200 F-16s, plus some Mirage 2000s, now the Rafale.

Potent force, the Egyptians. And a bigger zoo than even ours when people are complaining about types. lol

200(!) F-Solahs plus SU-35 and Rafale? A Paki would spasm and die in the presense of this menagerie.

Egypt's air force is bankrolled by the Saudis, it would be interesting to see how far the Saudis would go to help the pakis

[kit]

Isn't she a beauty as deadly as her looks !! 6 AASM and MICA missiles

[Rakesh]

Rakesh, Is Rafale M ruled out for IN requirement?

You folks think F18 or MiG-29K only?

Not at all. I was just responding to Cain-ji's post about the future fighter for the IN. He provided two options - MiG-29K and F-18. If the choice was just between those two, the F-18 is a better platform.

[Cain Marko]

Rakesh, Is Rafale M ruled out for IN requirement?

You folks think F18 or MiG-29K only?

Not at all. I was just responding to Cain-ji's post about the future fighter for the IN. He provided two options - MiG-29K and F-18. If the choice was just between those two, the F-18 is a better platform.

I'll go out on a limb and say that it is just between the 18 and the 29 here. The rafale just won't fit and the US promises the shornet will. One thing about the Khan, it delivers on it's tech.

[chola]

Rakesh, Is Rafale M ruled out for IN requirement?

You folks think F18 or MiG-29K only?

Not at all. I was just responding to Cain-ji's post about the future fighter for the IN. He provided two options - MiG-29K and F-18. If the choice was just between those two, the F-18 is a better platform.

Still the elevator problem for the F-18 unless they worked out that solution of tilting the wing diagonally.

The IN might have to bite the bullet and go back to the 29K for Vikrant.

[naird]

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-amazing-saga-of-how-israel-turned-its-f-15s-into-mu-1701606283

Because the Baz still has similar range as its more contemporary successors, the F-15I and the F-16I, it can work as a forward deployed networking and command and control node, absorbing the battle picture via data-link from fighters within its line of sight and then beaming this information up to a satellite, which then beams it back down to Israeli commanders hundreds, or even thousands of miles away. .

Karan - Is there any place where i can read about this capability in detail ? Also will ODL be used to relay the battle picture to command and control ? How different is this from SDR - which also can transmit real time information to command control ? (Is range only the limitation?)
I am trying to learn more on this topic , not sure i understand

[Y. Kanan]

Wow! I was against the Rafale order but honestly didn't expect it would pan out, even after all the announcements.

Russia Offers India its Su-57 Stealth Fighter (Again)
https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/russia- ... ter-again/

Russia is again offering the SU-57 (which has now entered serial production) to India. With the Rafale deal apparently happening for real this time, does that mean there's no chance IAF will be interested in the SU-57? I'm not claiming the SU-57 is better or even equal to the Rafale, but it costs only a fraction of what the Rafale costs.