Should we discontinue EVMs?

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pankajs
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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pankajs » 11 Jul 2019 13:49

-- deleted --
Last edited by pankajs on 11 Jul 2019 14:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pankajs » 11 Jul 2019 14:02

RM saar, you need to spend more time thinking through your cases and you are contradicting yourself across posts too.

Let us start with one.
kapilbishnoi wrote:The only part I could never figure out was "how to fool the voter's own eyes and still get VVPAT paper match with CU votes !!
Wrong! This in NOT the only part that has to be "managed".

Lets start with the one "foundation" basics of your scenario. You initial case via
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5008&p=2365167#p2364815
(5) But the code will not cut banana paper slip.
Note ... the "Not cut" will leave the "total" vote count out of sync with the slip count. The count of votes has to match the slips when the physical verification is done! There is no escaping that scenario for VVPAT!

Basic mistake when building a case. AND this is just the beginning. As far as I am concerned the logic fails at this point so exit further analysis. Leave it to you to "modify" your case for us to take the analysis further.

Under the most favorable of circumstance for your case, a lot of other things have to be managed with the current "interlocking" physical/procedural verification's that happen. That effectively means, all poll personnel (millions of them) AND more incredibly ALL (millions of them) opposition party agents have to be co-opted. One booth or a few will not swing the elections.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby tenaliram » 11 Jul 2019 14:23

@kapilbishnoi: Lets assume that what you are saying is true. In that case, there are atleast 2 people who would need to be in the loop for generating the false votes.
1. The person who wrote the code for VVPAT
2. The person generating the file to be loaded into VVPAT. I am assuming that there is only one person who is generating this data for all the 543 seats. Note that the same machines are used in state elections too. So, I guess the same person is responsible for generating the files for state elections too. Do you honestly think that just 1 person can do all this?

Next, you are assuming that the VVPAT printing is completely silent. If not, then wont people hear the extra slips being printed and being cut when no one is in the voting booth? The control unit also does not count the vote till the slip is not cut: https://youtu.be/DqcZZ-QrNgc?t=744

For your question about the different VVPATs, look at: https://youtu.be/DqcZZ-QrNgc?t=175. It could simply be a case of machines from different manufacturers.

The VVPATs were developed and fine-tuned from 2010-2013 and only then were they used in elections. The entire development of VVPAT was when party A was in power. So, if this hacking theory were true, then dont you think the party A would know about it? Why would party A create a backdoor, not use it in subsequent elections and allow party B to use it and sweep the elections?

First the argument was that the EVMs could be hacked, without any explanation on how this could be done in the Indian scenario, and hence VVPAT were needed. Now that VVPATs are introduced, people are coming up with elaborate schemes on how VVPATs can hack EVMs themselves.

Lastly, in your video, I cant see what black, non-transparent window you are talking about. Look at: https://youtu.be/QtZIlxw871I?t=38
The printing, display and cutting-off of the vote slip is clearly visible. Granted that the light only turns on once the slip is completely printed, but you can clearly see the slip being printed and then being cut-off and dropped. So, I am not sure how you can say that the slip will remain there uncut and unnoticed. Your entire theory is based on the slip remaining in VVPAT uncut and unobserved by the voter and I still dont see how that is possible.

I suggest going through the EVM and VVPAT manual at: https://eci.gov.in/files/file/9230-manu ... and-vvpat/
The entire election flow is discussed in detail here. There is honestly so much information about the whole flow and ECI has done a lot to remove doubts.
Last edited by tenaliram on 12 Jul 2019 00:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sachin » 11 Jul 2019 20:38

You may check the other responses, including a link which I was waiting for - one which explains the entire election process. Many of the points you have raised has been answered.
kapilbishnoi wrote:The manipulation is done by code in VVPAT installed at manufacturing time.

The VVPAT cannot push back any data to the Control Unit. It can only receive inputs. Secondly, the VVPAT slips in the VVPAT box is taken out and counted (symbol by symbol) and their tally should match exactly with what is there in Control Unit. EC did it during Lok Sabha 2019 elections. And it was 100% (not even 99.9%) accurate all across the country. No politician has then opened their mouth on this.

VVPAT decides whether the vote should be changed

This is a fundamental flaw in your analysis. VVPAT is a passive device. It is just a glorified printer.

VVPAT decides whether the vote should be changed
if not, VVPAT sends 7 to CU
if yes, VVPAT sends 8 to CU

Will not fly. Because such a move will cause discrepancies in the vote count between VVPAT and Control Unit. You cannot print one symbol in the paper, cut it and then ask Control Unit to change the vote to some one else. As I said the VVPAT vote tally is cross checked with Control Unit vote tally. Both should match (and have matched so far). And the VVPAT has to cut and drop every single slip - there is not other chamber in which the "misused/incorrect" slips can be hidden away :).

Nothing to do with EVM insider manipulation. The one who manipulates EVM is bigger than the sum of all these showcases

EVMs are made & handled by multiple vendors. So are you saying that some party can bribe them (or they are all one party's supporters) and ask them to tamper the EVMs? If yes, they could have done that from day one. No body cried about EVM hacking until and after one dynasty party started losing elections big time.

By the way, can you let us how you concluded that VVPAT is a full fledged computer? And that it can manipulate the control unit? Do you have any specific references for the same?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby tenaliram » 12 Jul 2019 00:36

As an example of all the false narratives, this is the best example. Back in 2017, there was a big breaking news of a scandal where the VVPAT was printing slips for only party B during a demonstration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg0rX-0Z3xk

Look at the description for the video: "Every time she pressed a button, same party's slips came", "Saleena Singh was seen telling journalists that this news should not appear in newspapers".

Now actually hear whats happening in the video: You can clearly hear the official show and say that when button 4 is pressed, information about that candidate appears. When button 2 is pressed, then corresponding information is printed. When an invalid button or 2 buttons are pressed at the same time, then nothing is printed. Its now that she says that if newspapers publish "VVPATs are not printing any slips" then that will be incorrect and wrong. At the end, she also asks "Are you now satisfied?"

The follow up report: https://www.firstpost.com/politics/an-e ... 63808.html

This false narrative about EVM hacking has been built up steadily and if allowed to go unchecked will damage the credibility of our elections and government. Asking questions is completely valid in a democracy, but please do your research before casting doubts.

The problem is that India needs a strong and active opposition. Currently, the opposition is in tatters and clueless and instead of analyzing the actual reasons for their failures and working on them, they are taking the easy way out and trying to build a false narrative of hacked EVMs.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 12 Jul 2019 06:38

RMji, (You may claim otherwise, but the walk test and quack test says something else)

1. There is no server involved. There is a simple SLU device (symbol loading unit) that will allow the service engineer to select serial number of candidate and serial number of symbol (list of symbols is fixed and known) and type in the name of the candidate. Once set, this SLU can be connected to each of the VVPAT unit in turn and load the table.

2. There is no JPG. The symbols are simple bitmaps (BMP) permanently stored within the VVPAT. The SLU simply transfers a table (serial number, name and symbol serial number) to the VVPAT.

3. There is no real time clock with battery backup in the CU. The moment battery is removed, the time resets.

4. The earth is round.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Sachin » 12 Jul 2019 12:38

tenaliram wrote:The problem is that India needs a strong and active opposition. Currently, the opposition is in tatters and clueless and instead of analyzing the actual reasons for their failures and working on them, they are taking the easy way out and trying to build a false narrative of hacked EVMs.

When a few doubting thomases keep on crying about EVM and VVPAT, the political parties had already found ways to defeat the system. That is to leave the electronic device alone, and focus on tasks which are done manually. In KL what the CPI(M) did was to tamper the voter list. The voter lists are prepared & updated by state govt. employees who have strong political leanings. Same person's name was added to voter lists of different booths. They have already found a solution to remove the indelible ink mark, so that the bogus voter can run to his/her next booth. It was an alert MP candidate in Thiruvananthapuram who first smelled a rat. He checked and identified all duplicates and shared the data with State Election Commission and his booth agents. Net result; not even one commie tried to do multiple voting :lol:. The CPI(M) candidate there lost miserably :lol:.

So if you notice more than EVM & VVPAT, the next area to be cleaned up is the voter list. Tag it to Aadhaar and we can fix that as well. One chap, one vote.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 13 Jul 2019 05:44

Dilipji

I am not Rahulji. End.

Could you please post links on this data loader device? ECI manuals that I read do not mention them. My friend worked on VVPAT in the year 2014 in Haryana election and from him, I came to know that VVPAT data is downloaded from a server. One needs to study that device to see how the candidate number can be passed to THAT device, which can then pass to all VVPATs.

And if CU doe not have an inner clock, then how does it show the date when it starts? And the date is reset to some zero value when the battery is removed. Then how is it set to present datetime? All in all, CU has a clock in it, and it knows the datetime.

Sachinji, Pankajji, etc

In case you noted, Dilipji did not question about how two voters, both see banana but the paper slip printed will be one apple, one banana, and electronic vote will be the same. Dilipji is only questioning that it is impossible to communicate polling date and candidate number to CU or VVPAT.

I will write (or copy paste) a full article with all the details. Meanwhile, let me read all 100 pages of this thread to see what arguments were made in the past. I have a deadline to meet, I will post after 5-7 days.

And I will ignore all congress bjp cpm aap issues raised. And other fake criticism published in media. I have been a victim of false court cases. I know how the media and courts work.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pranav » 19 Jul 2019 18:33

Dileep wrote:The firmware is One Time Programmable. Once programmed, it can not be changed. The only way to have a different program is to replace the board.

The order of candidates will be known only after the final list is prepared. So, biasing it beforehand is impossible. The immensely resourceful Rahul Mehta proposed one of the most convoluted scheme for this, which is as theoretically possible and as easy as balancing a cone on its tip.

Machines are brought in en masse to the state and allocated randomly to the district, and then once again randomly to the constituency. So, any 'magically pre-biased' machine possibility is gone.

Machines are stored by the local babudom with involvement of the political parties. So, is there really a possibility of replacing the machines, or boards within the machines, except by Harry Potter technology?

And what am I doing here? Proving earth is round?


You were using all these arguments to oppose introduction of VVPATs, no?

Now that we have VVPATs, let us make sure that the second V in VVPAT, which stands for "verified", is properly implemented.

Verification has not happened until the Voter sees the slip being printed, the slip being cut, and dropping into the box. This is what the VVPAT unit used to allow, until very recently. For unknown reasons, at the behest of unknown persons, the existing design was deliberately changed. Now, the voter can no longer see the slip being printed and being cut. So verification is no longer possible. The official EC videos which I had linked to in my original post show the difference between the old and new design.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby tenaliram » 19 Jul 2019 21:50

@Pranav,
For your question about the different VVPATs, look at: https://youtu.be/DqcZZ-QrNgc?t=175. It could simply be a case of machines from different manufacturers.

In your video, I cant see why the printing and cutting of slip is not visible to you or what black, non-transparent window you are talking about. Look at: https://youtu.be/QtZIlxw871I?t=38
The printing, display and cutting-off of the vote slip is clearly visible. Granted that the light only turns on once the slip is completely printed, but you can clearly see the slip being printed and then being cut-off and dropped.

Can you show exactly where in the video you cant see the slip being printed or being cut?

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby RajD » 19 Jul 2019 22:09

[quote/] You were using all these arguments to oppose introduction of VVPATs, no?

Now that we have VVPATs, let us make sure that the second V in VVPAT, which stands for "verified", is properly implemented.

Verification has not happened until the Voter sees the slip being printed, the slip being cut, and dropping into the box. This is what the VVPAT unit used to allow, until very recently. For unknown reasons, at the behest of unknown persons, the existing design was deliberately changed. Now, the voter can no longer see the slip being printed and being cut. So verification is no longer possible. The official EC videos which I had linked to in my original post show the difference between the old and new design.[/quote]

I beg to differ here with you if you are saying that people were not able to see the slips being printed and dropped off during the recent Lok Sabha elections. I want to categorically state that I could see the slip being printed in the name of the candidate whom I voted for and being dropped off not only for me but for my aged mother also whom I needed to assist in voting with permission from the polling officer in the recently concluded Lok Sabha elections.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Amber G. » 20 Jul 2019 01:26

For technically inclined people, there is a very nice presentation for EVM which I posted here:
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=2354498#p2354498
This two hour presentation is worth watching in full for those who are not fearful of technical details. ..
>>>
This is rather long (2 hour) technical presentation of Indian EVM's .. They are amazingly hack proof and reliable .. The presentation is by the renowned, IIT Prof who was involved in the design etc so it is for the technical people, yet most of the lecture (at least the first hour) can be followed by even non computer-scientists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0ORLvgM8ro&f
(I do have pdf slides of the above lecturer but I don't know if it is suitable to post it here)


I asked the author to do some nice write-up for general public.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Amber G. » 20 Jul 2019 01:30

..Now that we have VVPATs, let us make sure that the second V in VVPAT, which stands for "verified", is properly implemented.

Verification has not happened until the Voter sees the slip being printed, the slip being cut, and dropping into the box. This is what the VVPAT unit used to allow, until very recently. For unknown reasons, at the behest of unknown persons, the existing design was deliberately changed. Now, the voter can no longer see the slip being printed and being cut. So verification is no longer possible. The official EC videos which I had linked to in my original post show the difference between the old and new design...


Sorry but to put it bluntly these kind of "reports" are dishonest, untrue (easily demonstrated) to put it mildly.

It is incredible that people will believe anything ..

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby darshan » 27 Jul 2019 18:31

May be following threat vector is of more importance instead of EVM.

The Unsexy Threat to Election Security https://krebsonsecurity.com/2019/07/the ... -security/
Much has been written about the need to further secure our elections, from ensuring the integrity of voting machines to combating fake news. But according to a report quietly issued by a California grand jury this week, more attention needs to be paid to securing social media and email accounts used by election officials at the state and local level.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 16 Oct 2019 00:25

A video of a real equipment is on Rahul Mehta ji's facebook profile, which shows how an inside program can change paper votes in VVPAT.

In the demo equipment Rahulji has made, when 2 consecutive voters vote for candidate BANANA, both voters see BANANA paper behind vvpat glass ; but when paper votes are counted, there is one BANANA and one APPLE. So the number of votes polled remains the same. But one BANANA vote was stolen to APPLE.

And since VVPAT sends candidate numbers to CU, the electronic votes and paper votes will match even after vote stealing. (Mehtaji's demo does not show electronic votes and confines to paper votes)
.
So put Mehtaji's WORKING CODE (which works in actual demo PC plus printer) in VVPAT, and VVPAT will change paper votes as well as electronic votes !!

I could have placed a link to his video here. But since he is banned here, I won't put the link to his FB profile. But anyone can see if he wants.

Now candidate number to be favored and datetime after which vote changing has to start can be communicated to VVPAT program by SLA i.e. Symbol Loading Application which runs on ECI server. HOW?

How?

The BEL technician sits on a PC at Collector Office. That PC is connected to the ECI server in Delhi via the internet which runs SLA. Then BEL engineer will input candidate number, name, and symbol for all candidates. And then SLA generates SF = Symbol File. This file is downloaded from the ECI server to Collector's PC 13 days before the election. So SLA can pass candidate to be favored and datetime after which vote-stealing has to start in this huge file which is of several KB per candidate. Then this file is loaded from PC to SLU (symbol loading equipment) and from SLU, it is transferred to VVPAT
.
So 12 days before the election, after the candidate list is made, via the SLA server, the VVPAT program can get (1) candidate to be favored (2) election date time.
.
So till datetime, and in the first round (which VVPAT programs know that it is mock poll), there will be 100% honesty.
.
And then vote changing can start for BOTH --- paper votes and electronic votes.
.
And voters will never notice.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pratyush » 17 Oct 2019 19:12

Having read the process of vote manipulation discribed above i can understand why the gentleman is banned on the form.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 19 Oct 2019 04:12

Chhatisgadh CM ends use of EVM in municipal and panchayat election. So now municipal and panchayat elections there will be held by 100% paper ballots and not EVMs, Of course, the decsion will have no impact on MP / MLA election

https://www.asianage.com/india/all-indi ... paper.html

Only a few newspapers have covered it !!!

I hope more states will follow this

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ex-IAS officer Kannan Gopinath , says that VVPAT has made EVM prone to vote tempering !!

https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/pa ... id/1707423

[quote] “Unlike before, the Ballot Unit (BU) is not connected to Control Unit (CU — Memory of EVM) directly any more. It is connected through VVPAT. Means what you press on that blue button in the BU is not registering the vote in the CU anymore. But what VVPAT communicates to CU is!” Gopinathan tweeted.

“That is dangerous! For VVPAT now controls two things. 1. What is being shown to the public in the form of paper slips. Or the perception & trust factor. 2. What is actually getting registered in the Control Unit as a vote. Or the actual vote factor,” Gopinathan explained.

He added: “As I understand, VVPAT is a simple processor, a memory and a printer unit. It has a memory because serial numbers, names & symbols of the candidates need to be loaded on to it before the elections, so that it gets printed in the paper slip…

“The strongest defence any election officer has had to the question of ‘What if the CU is already programmed/hacked before it comes to you’ was that ‘But they wouldn’t know the sequence of candidates. So whatever they may program, they wouldn’t know who is at what number!’

“And that fool-proof check is what we have compromised with the introduction of VVPAT. For symbols are loaded on to the VVPAT by the engineers from their Laptops/Jigs after the candidates are finalised.

"When one can access the VVPAT after the candidate sequence is known, and can connect a laptop/computer/Symbol Loading Jig, is precisely when one can load a malware also into the VVPAT. This access should not have been provided. That answers the when question. Now to the how. VVPATs are connected to external devices after the candidate sequence is known!! "

video on same issue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGpqRgvvUf4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKnTEJzbWN8

I take Kannan as a wrong person (he opposed removal of art-370 and talks a lot of human rights nonsense). But what he says on VVPAT somewhat matches with Rahulji says on VVPAT.

After candidate numbers are issued, a PC is connected to VVPAT (or a PC is connected SLU and then that SLU is connected to VVPAT) . So a trojan in that SLU and VVPAT can communicate candidate number to be favored and datetime when votechange has to start . So VVPAT will behave honestly till that datetime, And on that date, after 1st round, which is mock poll, after 50 votes, VVPAT can start vote changing - both paper votes and electronic votes. Kannan doesn't explain how paper votes can be manipulated. Also, Kannan says that PC or SLU connected to VVPAT can insert trojan. Thats nonsense. Trojan has to be put in VVPAT at the time of manufacturing or someone has to later replace ROM or reprogram ROM. CU ROM is OTP. But I dont know if VVPAT ROM is OTP. The trojan will act honestly till it gets candidate number and datetime from PC or SLU which is connected to VVPAT after candidate numbers are issued

Kannan says that EVM without VVPAT is safe !! Thats nonsense. A unit called as FLCU (first level checking unit) was connected to CU to check CU and often after candidate list was issued. So FLCU can pass candidate number and counting dates to CU. So CU will act good for all mockpolls and will do vote changing on counting date only.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

All in all, EVM geese is now cooked. Enough of nonsense that EVM is secure etc. Now more and more people know EVM / VVPAT are riggable. And the fact that ECI chose "black glass front side mirror only backside transparent" rather than ordinary both side transparent makes things more murkier.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby shaun » 19 Oct 2019 06:30

:shock: to make the entire scenario working favourable for a particular party , the entire machinery of ECI would have to work in tandem with the said party !!! So you mean to say , ECI decides which party win. !!!!

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Amber G. » 19 Oct 2019 09:01

For those who are technical - scientists etc.. and are curious about how secure EVMS' are, please see my earlier message in this dhaga.
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=2366399#p2366399

This is rather technical presentation but still it gives some perspective on how secure these EVM's are.. certainly no other country has this kind of security and reliability.

Literally the same technology/people who designed security for our nuclear devices and space vehicles have designed and manufactured these devices.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Pratyush » 19 Oct 2019 14:41

This is a conspiracy theory the sole objective of which is to destroy the credibility of our election process.

Nothing more.

The same is being done in most liberal democracies by a cabal of people who think majority of a population is incapable of taking correct decisions.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pankajs » 19 Oct 2019 14:50

The person is question runs away after being called out on contradictions in his own narrative and them reappears after a while with someone else's write-up.

Still hasn't replied to any questions raised in the previous round by folks.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 20 Oct 2019 14:59

Pankajs,

Questions you asked were already answered in post I had posted before. And FB profile and youtibe channel of Rahulji has video which gives WORKING demo on home made VVPAT. In Rahulji's videos, 2 voters press BANANA, both see BANANA paper slip thru VVPAT glass, and then when paper slips are counted, there is only one BANANA and one APPLE. The video explains the exact steps VVPAT program took to steal paper votes

I can put link to video here, but then some members will call for my ban accusing me of "blog advertising" .

------------

Amberji,

I saw the two hour video by IIT Mumbai professor Dr Dinesh Sharma twice,. Rahuji's proposed malacious code will pass thru all safety features mentioned in that 2 hour video. The malacious code is put in all or some 10 lakh VVPAT ROM in factory. Or in truck/warehouse if VVPAT ROM is reprogrammable or replaceable. The video only talks that EVM ROM is OTP. And that CU will break if attempt is made to open inner portions. But nowhere does the video talk about VVPAT ROM. .In fact, video hides the fact that VVPAT data is uploaded after candidate numbers are issued by collector. And video gives false impression that no PC is connected to EVM. Reality is that a PC is connected to SLU and then that SLU is collected VVPAT , and that too after candidate numbers are issued. So via that PC, via SLU, candidate number to be favored and datetime can be passed to VVPAT. Dinesh Shrmaji is hiding this fact. See if you can ask him to put this fact on his facebook profile in black and white.

Also, putting malacious code inside factory is possible.

I will pass statements that "same people make satellites and weapons", These statements have nothing to do on whether some apex people inside will agree / manage to put malacious code inside VVPAT

The proposed malacious code in VVPAT works honestly till polling datetime. So all mockpolls will come clean

And candidate number and datetime along with password will be passed from ECI server to PC in collector office to SLU to VVPAT.

-------------

Pankajs, Amberji, Pratyush

Do you guys know how candidate number, name and his symbol is loaded into VVPAT? Is party name loaded into VVPAT? Do you know that VVPAT glass is ordinary both side transparent or whether it is front side mirror only back side transparent? And why is glass kept the way it is?

I think you dont know much about VVPAT. You have general statements about how good BEL people are and how good theier processes are,. None of them apply here. Here, presumption is that inner employees can put malacious code at the time of manufacturing (not after). And with that alone, once code is planted, only 1 person is needed change votes across India --- the administrator of SLA server inside ECI

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 20 Oct 2019 15:02

Let me tell you all how good BEL people and IIT professors in charge of EVM were in the year 2004

In all EVMs used in the year 2004. code was sent to chip manufacturer in USA and chip manufacturer in the USA burnt the code in ROM. So the chip manufacturer was free to put any trojan inside !! This was the level of precaution taken

And an instrument called FLCU was lavishly used before as well as after candidate number was issued !!!

FLCU means First Level Checking Unit. FLCU was connected to CU to adjust clock and do checks AFTER the candidate number was issued !!! And there was one FLCU per some 300 to 500 EVMs.

So FLCU can have a remote which can accept candidate number and counting/polling datetime and FLCU can pass that to CU.

So easy was EVM rigging in the year 2004 !!! And Also the year 2009, and the year 2014 !!

And here is proof that I am NOT Rahulji. Plz, see all posts of Rahulji --- none talk about FLCU. That's because he didn't know about FLCU until I told him. And I came to know via my BEL friend.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Karan M » 20 Oct 2019 15:16

And here is proof that I am NOT Rahulji. Plz, see all posts of Rahulji --- none talk about FLCU. That's because he didn't know about FLCU until I told him. And I came to know via my BEL friend.


:lol: :lol:

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby disha » 22 Oct 2019 01:06

kapilbishnoi wrote:
In all EVMs used in the year 2004. code was sent to chip manufacturer in USA and chip manufacturer in the USA burnt the code in ROM. So the chip manufacturer was free to put any trojan inside !! This was the level of precaution taken


:facepalm:

IB4TL

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby sarang » 22 Oct 2019 03:06

what a decent troll
seem to know everything about EVMs, :rotfl: :rotfl:
Like Rahulji,
I mean 'The Rahulji alias pappuji' :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 23 Oct 2019 00:41

I will ignore personal attacks on me.

Meanwhile, you can google on fact hiding (same as speaking lies) done by ECI, BEL etc on EVM issue. ECI doc given to the public does not mention FLCU which was connected to CU after candidate number was issued in the year 2004, 2009 and also 2014. Please see a book by ex-Secretary Alok Sharma on EVM titled "Electronic Voting Machines" . I have read this book. This book also mentions FLCU but does not mention the fact that FLCU was connected to EVM after the candidate number was issued. FLCU was used in the year 2004 and also in 2009 and 2014. FLCU was probably not used in the year 2019. I am not sure about the year 2019.
.
( link to book --- https://www.amazon.in/Electronic-Voting ... oks&sr=1-1 )

ECI etc have also "hidden" the fact that, after candidate number is issued, a file from ECI server called as SLA-server is downloaded from server to PC in Collector's office, and then that file is uploaded into a custom device called SLA , and then that file from SLA is moved into VVPAT. The 2 hour video made by IIT mumbai professor Dinesh Sharma (link in Amberji's post above) does NOT mention that a file is downloaded into VVPAT after candidate number is issued. On the contrarty, a wrong claim is made that no external devide or PC etc is connected to EVM. Only a gullible can agree. If external device is not connected, then did VVPAT get candidate name, number and symbol?

Kannan Gopinathan (ex-IAS who supports art-370 and resigned by citing some nonsense) is now claiming that PAPER VOTES can also be manipulated in EVM, and he will soon explain how. Here is his tweet at https://twitter.com/naukarshah/status/1 ... 9478201344 -- " Later, I will try and share a thread on how a worst case analysis of VVPAT process allows another kind of manipulation that cannot be caught even in a 100% tallying of paper slips. "

So he will soon disclose Rahulji's algorithm of changing paper votes in VVPAT. My guess is that he will claim it as his own, I hate this guy because he is p-sec. Rahulji too is going to make his demo before the public (he has already put on FB). Let's see who goes first.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 25 Oct 2019 21:09

Tomorrow Saturday Indian express Delhi, Mumbai, Ahmedabad, Pune, Kolkata has advertisement by Rahulji on how crores of paler votes can be manipulated in lakhs VVPATs by insiders.

(Dear admins, this is about mainstream media and not blog advertisement. I hope it is within forum laws)

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby SBajwa » 25 Oct 2019 21:40

kapilbishnoi wrote:I will ignore personal attacks on me.

Meanwhile, you can google on fact hiding (same as speaking lies) done by ECI, BEL etc on EVM issue. ECI doc given to the public does not mention FLCU which was connected to CU after candidate number was issued in the year 2004, 2009 and also 2014. Please see a book by ex-Secretary Alok Sharma on EVM titled "Electronic Voting Machines" . I have read this book. This book also mentions FLCU but does not mention the fact that FLCU was connected to EVM after the candidate number was issued. FLCU was used in the year 2004 and also in 2009 and 2014. FLCU was probably not used in the year 2019. I am not sure about the year 2019.
.
( link to book --- https://www.amazon.in/Electronic-Voting ... oks&sr=1-1 )

ECI etc have also "hidden" the fact that, after candidate number is issued, a file from ECI server called as SLA-server is downloaded from server to PC in Collector's office, and then that file is uploaded into a custom device called SLA , and then that file from SLA is moved into VVPAT. The 2 hour video made by IIT mumbai professor Dinesh Sharma (link in Amberji's post above) does NOT mention that a file is downloaded into VVPAT after candidate number is issued. On the contrarty, a wrong claim is made that no external devide or PC etc is connected to EVM. Only a gullible can agree. If external device is not connected, then did VVPAT get candidate name, number and symbol?

Kannan Gopinathan (ex-IAS who supports art-370 and resigned by citing some nonsense) is now claiming that PAPER VOTES can also be manipulated in EVM, and he will soon explain how. Here is his tweet at https://twitter.com/naukarshah/status/1 ... 9478201344 -- " Later, I will try and share a thread on how a worst case analysis of VVPAT process allows another kind of manipulation that cannot be caught even in a 100% tallying of paper slips. "

So he will soon disclose Rahulji's algorithm of changing paper votes in VVPAT. My guess is that he will claim it as his own, I hate this guy because he is p-sec. Rahulji too is going to make his demo before the public (he has already put on FB). Let's see who goes first.



Sir ji!! Vast majority of the people on this forum are hardware and software engineer employed all over the world and have studied the circuitry of the EVMs. It is not possible to temper the EVMs. so please stop trolling and peddling the Congoon (corrupt Italians) lies!

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby chetak » 25 Oct 2019 21:55

twitter


What a election!!

BJP is celebrating
Shiv sena is celebrating
NCP is celebrating
Congress is celebrating
JJP with 10 seats also celebrating.

Above all the most important is EC is celebrating. No complain on EVM

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 30 Oct 2019 22:12

Indian Express Delhi edition 26/10/2019, has Rahulji's advertisement explaining how malicious code in VVPAT and Symbol Loading Application server can change crores of votes across lakhs of EVMs across India, without voters noticing during poll or any presiding officer etc noticing in so called mock polls .

see http://epaper.indianexpress.com/c/45071128

(admins - Rahulji is banned. So I am not posting any links to his blogs / profiles. But this is from from mainstream media. And I have used OCR and then some editing, not copied any text from his profile)

link to advt --- http://epaper.indianexpress.com/c/45071128

text of the advt ---

(advertisement)

A flaw in VVPAT (that glass is not transparent colorless, but glass is black, front side mirror like, only back side transparent) enables INSIDER programmer to write code that may manipulate crores of paper votes across lakhs of EVMs !!

video https://tinyurl.com/EvmHatao3 shows logic on a VVPAT-like equipment (not actual VVPAT)

say 50 voters vote for Banana and 50 vote for Apple. It is possible for insider to putt malicious code in VVPAT factory, so that all 50 voters will see banana printed on paper slip in VVPAT, and all 50 voters will see apple on paper slip. But malicious code in VVPAT can ensure that there will be 40 banana paper slips, and 60 apple paper slips !! And CU will also show same 40/60 votes !!

HOW?

Malicious code can implement paper vote theft in VVPAT in a way, voters will never notice as follows :-

(1) say voter-A votes for “Banana”.

(2) then VVPAT program can print “Banana” on paper slip, turn light ON, and show the paper slip to voter; and then turn light OFF ; but code will NOT cut the banana paper slip that was shown to this 1st voter.

(3) Now say 2nd voter comes. He stands before VVPAT. Since glass is dark black, front side mirror like and only back side transparent, and VVPAT light is OFF, 2nd voter can NOT see banana paper behind glass.

(4) Now say 2nd voter also votes for “Banana”. Then the malicious VVPAT code will NOT print anything but simply turn light ON, and show SAME banana paper slip to 2nd voter too

(5) Then VVPAT code will turn light OFF, and cut the banana paper slip, and then print one apple paper slip, and cut that apple paper slip

(6) So now when paper slips are counted, there will be one banana and one apple. And counting unit will show same counts. So two voters voted for banana, both saw banana paper slips in VVPAT, but VVPAT code managed to steal one vote to apple on paper as well as electronic counter. So paper slip count and electronic counts will match, despite vote stealing !!!

(7) The candidate to be favored can be passed to code along with exact datetime when vote steal has to start, via SLU which is connected to VVPAT after candidate numbers are issued.

SOLUTIONS ? 100% VVPAT count is useless.

One solution I propose is – VVPAT glass must be changed to ordinary colorless both side transparent.

But this does NOT solve other possible manipulation.

So long term only solution is to cancel EVMs and bring ballot papers back.

So I request anti-EVM voters to write postcards to PM and ECI to CancelEvm and also tweet “@PmoIndia @EciSveep #CancelEvm”. In my opinion, if crores of voters send postcards and tweets, then EVMs may get cancelled. JAI HIND !!

advt from : Rahul Chimanbhai Mehta, B Tech, Comp Sci, IIT Delhi; MS, Comp Sci, Rutgers Univ, USA

note : I am Founder President of Right to Recall Party. But this advertisement is my personal view, and not connected to RRP. For more, follow my profile fb.com/MehtaRahulC ; for videos on RTR, enact vacant land tax, why end draconian GST or GST will end small businesses, see ......

--------------------------- end of Indian Express advt --------------------------

The video here gives full working demo of the vote stealing algorithm on a homemade VVPAT.

Two voters cast vote for Banana and both see Banana paper printed thru VVPAT glass . And when paper votes are counted, there is only one BANANA only, and one vote is stolen and transferred to APPLE !!!

ex-IAS Kannnan Gopinathan is now claiming that papervotes in VVPAT can be changed , but he does not explain how.

I think he will take Rahulji's method, and claim it as his own discovery !!

The Kannan guy is real crook. For years and years, he supported EVMs. And now when EVM geese is cooked, he is coming ahead and trying to claim credit for discovering flaws in EVMs !!! What else do you expect from an IAS !!!

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Amber G. » 01 Nov 2019 22:12

Wow! A youtube demo of a "VVPT type" :eek: :eek: (NOT actual VVPT)!
Really????
Are there people really that stupid/idiotic to be fooled by such tamasha? Why go through all that trouble when one can produce thousands of "ghost voters" demonstrated here

Seriously I am amazed that the most celebrated complaints/youtube demos/claims I have seen are:

- A Fake Led display glued over (which they don't even hide and one can easily see it is glued over) an old EVM CU. The Led display (with circuit board behind it) is controlled by Wi-Fi to show any count it wants. Of course, one does not explain how this silly unit can be substituted for the real thing with all the security given to EVM's. :eek:

- Some one has a unit, claimed to use the "same/similar/produced by USA" - yes NO actual relationship with EVM - which can be "programmed" to work differently. :eek:

These stunts look even more silly than some one gluing a paper photo on iPhone and claiming it is a wallpaper of unlocked iPhone and thus iPhone can be unlocked and all photos stored on it can be hacked or something similar silly.

****

Most people do not understand public/private key encryption - EVM's use 4K keys even to communicate between VVPT/CU etc -- nearly impossible to crack even if one gets physical access. Of course physical access itself is quite hard. Paper seals uses the same paper as that is used for printing money notes.

Even if one gets physical access, one can not connect EVM (CU or VVPT) to communicate with a fake equipment to read/modify/reprogram - anything stored. One can not "open" it ( to replace a chip etc inside) without destroying the master key embedded on the chip inside. Yes, best minds in the world have been used to make it virtually hack proof.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Amber G. » 01 Nov 2019 23:10

Kapilbishnoiji - As time permits, I will try to put some comments/answer/discuss your questions. I will make more than few posts.. taking just one point at a time for clarity. My intention here is to share knowledge - learn and may be help educate things which I may know. I hope this is your intention too. I will keep my post focussed mainly on technical topics - because that is more of my interest.
kapilbishnoi wrote:
Pankajs, Amberji, Pratyush

Do you guys know how candidate number, name and his symbol is loaded into VVPAT? Is party name loaded into VVPAT? Do you know that VVPAT glass is ordinary both side transparent or whether it is front side mirror only back side transparent? And why is glass kept the way it is?

I think you dont know much about VVPAT. You have general statements about how good BEL people are and how good theier processes are,. None of them apply here. Here, presumption is that inner employees can put malacious code at the time of manufacturing (not after). And with that alone, once code is planted, only 1 person is needed change votes across India --- the administrator of SLA server inside ECI


To put it simply you are right. I DO NOT know much about *actual* programming or procedures. I do not reside in India and have not even seen an actual EVM/VVPT in my life. (So I will welcome *real* data/explanations/details etc - Of course I have family members, friends who vote in India)

I do understand math/science/engineering behind such equipments and am a quick learner. As IIT alum (I graduated about 50 years ago but like many IITians am still in the loop) I do know some of the people involved in the design of EVM and may have even given unofficial input as a few engineers/scientists are colleagues/students/profs. These people are not some hacks but quite smart and honest people. Prof Sharma's presentation (and Q/A from/to him) is my main source for actual details although I do understand the math/engineering and am familiar with other such systems. (I have watched US elections as technical observer etc).

As a scientist I am not easily fooled by fake claims and found various claims about "hacking" EVM as laughable. (I don't have to know actual code to point out that claims made by some are such claims)

Can I ask what is your back-ground in science so that I can keep appropriate technical level.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Amber G. » 02 Nov 2019 00:33

kapilbishnoi wrote:

Amberji,

I saw the two hour video by IIT Mumbai professor Dr Dinesh Sharma twice,. Rahuji's proposed malacious code will pass thru all safety features mentioned in that 2 hour video. The malacious code is put in all or some 10 lakh VVPAT ROM in factory. Or in truck/warehouse if VVPAT ROM is reprogrammable or replaceable. The video only talks that EVM ROM is OTP. And that CU will break if attempt is made to open inner portions. But nowhere does the video talk about VVPAT ROM. .In fact, video hides the fact that VVPAT data is uploaded after candidate numbers are issued by collector. And video gives false impression that no PC is connected to EVM. Reality is that a PC is connected to SLU and then that SLU is collected VVPAT , and that too after candidate numbers are issued. So via that PC, via SLU, candidate number to be favored and datetime can be passed to VVPAT. Dinesh Shrmaji is hiding this fact. See if you can ask him to put this fact on his facebook profile in black and white.


First - it is outright rude if not idiotic, to make comments like Sharmaji is "hiding"" this fact. That was a presentation made to students and others .. a generous act by him he wasn't "hiding" anything. Obviously I am not going to ask ask him anything - (you are welcome to ask him) as what you say, is rude and it does not even make sense to me.

Yes that presentation was two hours long, but as you know, thousands of hours were spent in designing the system to make it hack-proof. It is one thing to say that you did not understand some parts of the video, or the video did not cover everything (no video can cover everything for everybody) but it is dishonesty to suggest that video was "hiding" or giving "false explanation."

The precautions, as I understand, taken makes it all but impossible to load "malicious" (or any type of unauthorized) code or data on VVPAT. You don't explain how that can even be possible except saying that you do not understand the technical details and you are blaming the prof for "hiding".

A simple way to prove your point to demonstrate.. using a actual VVPT. (Did you know that there were independent teams from those who designed the VVPT's to hack it and test it thoroughly.. and I am sure you know that apart from mock polling *many* units, chosen randomly, are checked for this at different stages).

For technically inclined people - I found that video quite interesting. It explains how VVPT, even though some parts are mechanical (printer which is less reliable than solid-state devise) is still reliable. Paper jamming/ ink running low etc.. will *not* contribute in any negative way to it's reliability etc.. truly amazing.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby nachiket » 02 Nov 2019 00:44

AmberG, may I humbly suggest that you are wasting your precious time debunking the wild conspiracy theories here which no one of consequence takes seriously.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Amber G. » 02 Nov 2019 03:21

^^^Thanks. Point taken but will leave the above posts without deleting.... may be of some help.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby kapilbishnoi » 05 Nov 2019 07:08

Amberji

(1) It is presumption (of myself and Rahuji, and many) that apex INSIDERS will try and succeed in getting malacious code inside EVM VVPAT at the time of manufacturing, as long as it ensures that outsiders as collectors, presiding officers, voters etc cant notice.

So features like private key etc dont effect them. They effect only outsiders who have no access to insiders. In fact,. from begining of this thread in year 2009, Rahulji has maintained that "EVMs perhaps can NOT be HACKED by outsiders, but can indeed be TEMPERED by INSIDERS".

EVM is single purpose machine with perhaps no OS, no bootcode, and no instructions in ROM to take instructions from outside. And so insiders can make it immune to OUTSIDERS. The inner part replacement can be made difficult and replacement of BU / CU / VVPAT can be made almost impossible using private-public keys. But none of these features stop INSIDERS from putting malacious code insider VVPAT right at the time of manufacturing, Or, insiders can leak private keys to certain key persons, who can then change board of VVPATs in transit. In any case, I (and most of us anti-EVM people) are only talking about INSIDER TEMPERING cases.

(2) My allegation on Prof Dinesh Sharmaji about of "hiding facts" was not just wrt to his 2 hr speech alone, but applies on ECI, and TEC aka Technical Expert Committee (which consists of four IIT professors along with Dinesh Sharmaji) . This is what they have "hidden"
.
Say polling is on 23-apr-2019 . Then on 09-apr-2019, collector will print so called FORM-7A , which is list of all contesting candidates. This form7A has their serial numbers , names in English and local language, and symbol. (Party name is NOT put on EVM or ballot papers since British days). Now ALL data of this list has to be converted into a file and then loaded into 2000 VVPATs of that Loksabha,.

So what exact machines and steps are used , is HIDDEN from public by gentlemen in ECI and TEC.

Of course, collector etc know. But there is no public document on ECI and no video made by ECI which shows the steps. The candidate list FILE is made on a server located in ECI , and then that file is uploaded into all 2000 VVPAT machines via PC via SLU. I have given details before.

So a key information that, AFTER candidate numbers are issued, a SERVER under human communicates to VVPAT was kept HIDDEN to public at large. Because this can create doubt that SERVER can communicate candidate number to be favored to malacious code inside VVPAT. And also exact datetime when polling will start.

So manipulating electronic votes for VVPAT is now piece-o-cake.

So only problem now for VVPATs is --- how to manipulate paper votes in a way voters , testers and staff must NOT notice.

And Rahuji's video demonstrates AN ALGORITHM by which malacious code inside VVPAT can manipulate paper vote printing, and fool crores of voters as well as lakhs of presiding officers

Now, how do you know that malacious paper vote manipulating algorithm given by Rahulji in his video, is not present inside VVPAT ROM?

You have trust in insiders. Thats all. Trust !!!

Well, I dont want to comment on trust part.
.
I want to present "what if" analysis on "what if insiders have managed to put malacious code, demonstrated by Rahulji, inside VVPAT and SLA server"? In that case, crores of votes get stolen !! And so we should ban this EVM nonsense.

aside: in general, insiders do more damage in banks or judiciary than outsiders. eg no bank robber could have robbed 1000s of crores due to "safeguards". But none of those safeguards stopped banks' insiders.

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby Dileep » 05 Nov 2019 07:52

Get this: The voter can actually see the slip coming out and getting cut, even though the lamp is off. Some versions of VVPAT you need to 'look for it', while some versions it is clearly visible.

So, why don't you start the campaign for the voters to "look for the slip actually coming out and getting cut"? Anyone who doubt the process can actually look closely and verify.

Let the campaign run and see what people see!!

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby pankajs » 05 Nov 2019 10:38

kapilbishnoi wrote:Amberji

(1) It is presumption (of myself and Rahuji, and many) that apex INSIDERS will try and succeed in getting malacious code inside EVM VVPAT at the time of manufacturing, as long as it ensures that outsiders as collectors, presiding officers, voters etc cant notice.

So features like private key etc dont effect them. They effect only outsiders who have no access to insiders. In fact,. from begining of this thread in year 2009, Rahulji has maintained that "EVMs perhaps can NOT be HACKED by outsiders, but can indeed be TEMPERED by INSIDERS".

EVM is single purpose machine with perhaps no OS, no bootcode, and no instructions in ROM to take instructions from outside. And so insiders can make it immune to OUTSIDERS. The inner part replacement can be made difficult and replacement of BU / CU / VVPAT can be made almost impossible using private-public keys. But none of these features stop INSIDERS from putting malacious code insider VVPAT right at the time of manufacturing, Or, insiders can leak private keys to certain key persons, who can then change board of VVPATs in transit. In any case, I (and most of us anti-EVM people) are only talking about INSIDER TEMPERING cases.

(2) My allegation on Prof Dinesh Sharmaji about of "hiding facts" was not just wrt to his 2 hr speech alone, but applies on ECI, and TEC aka Technical Expert Committee (which consists of four IIT professors along with Dinesh Sharmaji) . This is what they have "hidden"
.
Say polling is on 23-apr-2019 . Then on 09-apr-2019, collector will print so called FORM-7A , which is list of all contesting candidates. This form7A has their serial numbers , names in English and local language, and symbol. (Party name is NOT put on EVM or ballot papers since British days). Now ALL data of this list has to be converted into a file and then loaded into 2000 VVPATs of that Loksabha,.

So what exact machines and steps are used , is HIDDEN from public by gentlemen in ECI and TEC.

Of course, collector etc know. But there is no public document on ECI and no video made by ECI which shows the steps. The candidate list FILE is made on a server located in ECI , and then that file is uploaded into all 2000 VVPAT machines via PC via SLU. I have given details before.

So a key information that, AFTER candidate numbers are issued, a SERVER under human communicates to VVPAT was kept HIDDEN to public at large. Because this can create doubt that SERVER can communicate candidate number to be favored to malacious code inside VVPAT. And also exact datetime when polling will start.

So manipulating electronic votes for VVPAT is now piece-o-cake.

So only problem now for VVPATs is --- how to manipulate paper votes in a way voters , testers and staff must NOT notice.

And Rahuji's video demonstrates AN ALGORITHM by which malacious code inside VVPAT can manipulate paper vote printing, and fool crores of voters as well as lakhs of presiding officers

Now, how do you know that malacious paper vote manipulating algorithm given by Rahulji in his video, is not present inside VVPAT ROM?

You have trust in insiders. Thats all. Trust !!!

Well, I dont want to comment on trust part.
.
I want to present "what if" analysis on "what if insiders have managed to put malacious code, demonstrated by Rahulji, inside VVPAT and SLA server"? In that case, crores of votes get stolen !! And so we should ban this EVM nonsense.

aside: in general, insiders do more damage in banks or judiciary than outsiders. eg no bank robber could have robbed 1000s of crores due to "safeguards". But none of those safeguards stopped banks' insiders.

Bakwas

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Re: Should we discontinue EVMs?

Postby uddu » 05 Nov 2019 11:23

Why is propaganda allowed in here? Admin's please cleanup the nonsense. This time around though the Anti-nationals have not made EVM issue after the election result since they are pretty close to forming a govt.


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