Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 16 Jul 2019 22:31

Almost 60 years from 1962 war, they have finally built the set target of 61 strategic roads leading to the LAC , a total of 2000 km.

Also the guns are coming , hundreds of 155 mm pieces.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jul 2019 05:20

Vidur, Any protective equipment for the soldiers being bought like BPJ with the emergency funds?

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 17 Jul 2019 05:48

To get the full picture on IBGs it will be necessary to look at the units used to raise them.

Apparently they will be raised out of existing formations. One indicator so far is that 14 RAPIDS lost its armoured brigade to an IBG, and will now be deployed in Uttarakhand/HP. 14 RAPIDS is from 2 Corps iirc, so what happens to 2 Corps now? Will its role change? This is huge, because it was the most powerful strike Corps. It is minus an entire division now. Is another division going to be dual tasked to 2 corps? This will now play out across the entire orbat as more IBGs are raised.

wig · Post by **wig** » 17 Jul 2019 10:13

https://www.dailyexcelsior.com/army-to- ... tancy-ops/

Army to deploy 20% more officers on borders, anti-militancy Ops

RR Hqrs to be shifted from Delhi to Udhampur

extracts

The decisions, according to sources, were quite significant and were clearly aimed at strengthening the Army positions along the LoC with Pakistan, intensify the anti-militancy operations and plan the strategy for future information warfare, operations and further gear up the Military Intelligence network.
The decisions, they said, were proposed to be implemented shortly.
“It has been decided that 20 percent officers of the Army posted in New Delhi would be relieved of their jobs in the Union capital and assigned duties in the field fighting operations,” sources said and added that these officers would be posted along the borders with Pakistan to further strengthen the Indian positions.
Apart from the borders, some of the officers could also be posted in the anti-militancy operations in the Kashmir valley, where the troops were engaged in finishing the militants, both locals as well as foreigners. Anti-militancy operations in the Valley as well as some North Eastern States were a continued process, the sources said.
Deployment of more officers along the borders with Pakistan would further help the Army to tackle the infiltration of militants though the intrusions this year on the LoC have witnessed steep decline and were virtually negligible in some of the areas.

further rationalisation

“Nearly 229 officers would be optimized from Army Headquarters and relocated to units and formations of the field Armies,” sources said.
They added that the Director General of Rashtriya Rifles would now be shifted to Northern Command in Udhampur from New Delhi and will be looked after by a Major General rather than the Lieutenant General. The Rashtriya Rifles has been deployed in large numbers in Jammu and Kashmir for the anti-militancy operations and shifting of the post of its Director General from New Delhi to Udhampur Headquarters of the Northern Command would help the force.

New Dy Chief to look after Ops, MI, Warfare

The third Deputy Chief, according to sources, will look after important Directorates of Operations, Military Intelligence and Information Warfare, all of which will be helpful in the anti-militancy operations as well as strengthening positions of the troops along borders with Pakistan.
The third Deputy Chief would be designated as Deputy Chief (Strategy), sources said, adding that the Information Warfare will get a major boost as an officer of Lieutenant General rank would monitor this aspect along with cyber warfare.
Currently, there are two Deputy Chiefs in the Army. The first Deputy Chief is known as Deputy Chief (Planning and Systems) who looks after capital procurement in the force while the second one is known as Deputy Chief (Information systems and Training).
In the other significant plans of the restructuring of Army Headquarters and reorganization of the force, entire modernization and revenue procurement of the Indian Army is going to be done by the Deputy Chief (Capability Development), who was earlier known as Deputy Chief Planning and Systems.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 18 Jul 2019 03:16

^^ the last bit about capability development is one of the worst decisions to be made. But on bright side the third deputy chief is a good thing

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jul 2019 07:18

Unity of command is a crucial point in military.
Now the chief has one officer to go to on Capability Development who is also in charge of Planning and Systems.
So this follows Pisunaga quoted in Arthasastra to task those responsible for execution of a project with the planning.

Capability here is fighting capability.

In the other significant plans of the restructuring of Army Headquarters and reorganization of the force, entire modernization and revenue procurement of the Indian Army is going to be done by the Deputy Chief (Capability Development), who was earlier known as Deputy Chief Planning and Systems.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 18 Jul 2019 11:42

ramana wrote:Unity of command is a crucial point in military.
Now the chief has one officer to go to on Capability Development who is also in charge of Planning and Systems.
So this follows Pisunaga quoted in Arthasastra to task those responsible for execution of a project with the planning.

Capability here is fighting capability.

They are trying to follow a failed model that the west follows.
Reminds me of the putting lipstick on pig saying.

Arthasastra is right but one needs to read the scope of the post to understand if intention is the same as the quote

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jul 2019 03:11

Y I Patel wrote:To get the full picture on IBGs it will be necessary to look at the units used to raise them.

Apparently they will be raised out of existing formations. One indicator so far is that 14 RAPIDS lost its armoured brigade to an IBG, and will now be deployed in Uttarakhand/HP. 14 RAPIDS is from 2 Corps iirc, so what happens to 2 Corps now? Will its role change? This is huge, because it was the most powerful strike Corps. It is minus an entire division now. Is another division going to be dual tasked to 2 corps? This will now play out across the entire orbat as more IBGs are raised.

YI Patel - I've done some analysis on this swapping of assets between divisions and its impact. And what does it mean to have 14 Infantry Division deployed for Central Sector where there are existing resources committed to the sector. Also, my research tells me that 58 Armored Brigade, the armored brigade of 14 RAPID, while it has shifted to Kapurthala, it is likely to continue to remain as part of 14 Division. I think what we're witnessing here is creation of swing divisions within Indian reserves with Strike Corps.

Also, with 14 Infantry Division, along with 6 or 59 Mountain Division and 2 x (I) Mountain Brigade Groups for Central Sector, are we looking to take fight into Tibet and threaten G219 highway?

Do have a look.

https://vatsrohit.blogspot.com/2019/07/ ... art-1.html

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 21 Jul 2019 06:25

Thanks for the link Rohit, and for your excellent compilation. I made a comment on your blog but it’s not visible yet probably because you need to review it. If you don’t see it either and it’s lost in the ether then I will resubmit by logging in

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jul 2019 23:59

Y I Patel wrote:Thanks for the link Rohit, and for your excellent compilation. I made a comment on your blog but it’s not visible yet probably because you need to review it. If you don’t see it either and it’s lost in the ether then I will resubmit by logging in

I've seen your comment and published it as well.

What you've mentioned is quite possible. This is an evolving situation and I will modify my assertion as more information becomes available.

BTW - there can be a logical reason for transferring the armored brigade to 7 Infantry Division under 11 Corps. As someone who tracks ORBAT closely on either side, I can tell you that PA has raised a new armored brigade under Lahore based IV Corps. It already has 3 (I) Armored Brigade and one more has come-up. However, with Pakistan Army you never know whether it is full strength or still under-raising. And what kind of structure it has. (I) Armored Brigades in PA are smaller than ours with 2+1 structure as against ours 3+1 structure. Sometimes they've opposite i.e. 1+2 structure and term the formation as Light Armored Bde or Anti-tank armored bde.

Will add more stuff as more information becomes available.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Jul 2019 03:39

shyamd wrote:
ramana wrote:Unity of command is a crucial point in military.
Now the chief has one officer to go to on Capability Development who is also in charge of Planning and Systems.
So this follows Pisunaga quoted in Arthasastra to task those responsible for execution of a project with the planning.

Capability here is fighting capability.
They are trying to follow a failed model that the west follows.
Reminds me of the putting lipstick on pig saying.

Arthasastra is right but one needs to read the scope of the post to understand if intention is the same as the quote

What is this failed model shyamd?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Jul 2019 03:45

rohitvats wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:Thanks for the link Rohit, and for your excellent compilation. I made a comment on your blog but it’s not visible yet probably because you need to review it. If you don’t see it either and it’s lost in the ether then I will resubmit by logging in
I've seen your comment and published it as well.

What you've mentioned is quite possible. This is an evolving situation and I will modify my assertion as more information becomes available.

BTW - there can be a logical reason for transferring the armored brigade to 7 Infantry Division under 11 Corps. As someone who tracks ORBAT closely on either side, I can tell you that PA has raised a new armored brigade under Lahore based IV Corps. It already has 3 (I) Armored Brigade and one more has come-up. However, with Pakistan Army you never know whether it is full strength or still under-raising. And what kind of structure it has. (I) Armored Brigades in PA are smaller than ours with 2+1 structure as against ours 3+1 structure. Sometimes they've opposite i.e. 1+2 structure and term the formation as Light Armored Bde or Anti-tank armored bde.

Will add more stuff as more information becomes available.

Rohit,

Great reading this.

Was discussing your article with the old man..

He wants to read it in depth as he has served in the NE as well east of the glacier etc.

The point he was making repeatedly is that all these are great but we need to ensure that equipment and resources need to keep up with the planning. Ammo reserves, equipping the inf adequately etc and all the logistics is where the s..t storm is!!!

But the question that did come up was that is this to address combat capability or to address rank parity?

Regards

S

wig · Post by **wig** » 22 Jul 2019 08:44

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 05533.html

First battle group to be along Pakistan border - Two similar IBGs for frontier with China soon
excerpted

An Indian Army Corps under the Western Command has been chosen to depute the first integrated battle group (IBG). This is part of a series of steps to restructure the Army to make it leaner and more agile.
Besides, the next phase is to have two similar IBGs in the Himalayas facing China. The IBG on the western front will have different equipment, training and attack tactics than the ones for Himalayas facing China.

Once done, this will be the first tweak to the ‘cold start doctrine’, first made public in 2004 and planned after ‘Operation Parakram’ of 2002.

proposed location of IBG

The first IBG is likely to be tasked along the frontier with Pakistan and what is operationally known as the ‘Shakargarh Bulge’.

information on constitution

The IBGs will not be new raisings or inductions, it will involve integrating existing elements of infantry, tank regiments, artillery, UAVs, engineers and signals. An IBG, with six battalions of infantry, armoured and artillery, will be commanded by Major General or a Brigadier and placed directly under the Corps

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jul 2019 03:58

I think there will be about 5 IBGs.
Two on Pak border and three on Northern and Eastern border.
One on the Northern border could be dual tasked.

wig · Post by **wig** » 23 Jul 2019 10:05

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 06047.html

Top-level changes in Army; Lt Gen Manoj Naravane appointed Vice-Chief

extracted from the above

Lt Gen Anil Chauhan will be the new Eastern Command chief, replacing Gen Naravane.

Lt Gen R P Singh will be heading the Chandimandir-based Western Command, replacing Lt Gen Surinder Singh who retires on July 31.

Lt Gen A S Kler will be heading the Jaipur-based South-Western Command. He will replace Lt Gen Cherish Matheson, who retires on August 31. The Lucknow-based Central Command will now be headed by Lt Gen I S Ghuman. He will replace Lt Gen Abhay Krishna, who retires on September 30.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jul 2019 14:25

Indian Army is strengthening the 180 degree arc around the Shakargarh bulge. Consider these two developments:

1. Akhnoor based 10 Division has been converted into a RAPID. Which means 10 Division now has 2 x Armored Regiments + 1 x Mechanized Regiments. Akhnoor as we know, features prominently in all our India-Pakistan shooting matches.

2. Creation of IBG under 9 Corps involving Pathankot and Jammu based 29 & 26 Infantry Divisions, respectively. Apart from these new IBGs, 9 Corps already has 3 independent armored brigades. That's 09 armored regiments in total. Just one short of 2 x Armored Divisions of Pakistan Army.

3. Facing them would be Pakistan's 1st Armored Division under Mangla based 1 Corps or Army Reserve North. In addition, we've independent armored brigades with Gujranwala based 30 Corps, and possibly one more independent armored brigade with Rawalpindi based 10 Corps.

4. I think we've near parity now in terms of armored regiments in the sector.

5. Not good from Pakistan's perspective because for someone looking to go on offensive in this sector, the attacked to defender ratio being close to 1, means its outnumbered from Day 1.

6. Finally, how can one forget the 1 x Mi-35 and 1 x Apache squadron at Pathankot?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Jul 2019 15:18

Yup Shakargarh should be the made a killing zone, rather than advance, Pakis must be destroyed and gates to Isloo opened, we should also amass enough Sam's to keep the PAF away.

For Pakistan a rapid advance by Indian Army here threatens GHQ Rawalpindi, hence most of their miltary assets are in Northern Pakjab

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jul 2019 23:22

I would like a unit firepower tabulated per infantry battalion and arty regiment, tank regiment, then we can understand what will and IBG vs traditional division firepower will be.
So what I am asking is order of battle or Table of Organization (TOE).
Does anyone have access from public sources?

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 24 Jul 2019 00:20

ramana wrote:I would like a unit firepower tabulated per infantry battalion and arty regiment, tank regiment, then we can understand what will and IBG vs traditional division firepower will be.
So what I am asking is order of battle or Table of Organization (TOE).
Does anyone have access from public sources?

I do have info on armor regiment:

IA has 67 armor regiments (including PBG), each regiment has 62 tanks(43 active +17 training+ 2 replacement)

Currently 43 and 75 regiments
Flaunt arjun mbt

Number of T-90 regiments is 20, remaining 45 consists of all T-72

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 24 Jul 2019 04:33

ks_sachin wrote: What is this failed model shyamd?

Capability development 'department' or directorate i.e. the guy stating what fancy things the army wants (often without much monetary backing or understanding of R&D, S&T, Manufacturing capability).

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 24 Jul 2019 06:22

shyamd the capability development directorate or department if I am not mistaken will work closely with ARTRAC where some of the doctrinal stuff originates from.
So while there is definitely a gap in understanding of R&D, S&T or manufacturing (some of this wrongly attributed to the IA officer class) based on half knowledge it would be unwise to throw out the baby with the bathwater!

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 24 Jul 2019 18:41

ks_sachin wrote:shyamd the capability development directorate or department if I am not mistaken will work closely with ARTRAC where some of the doctrinal stuff originates from.
So while there is definitely a gap in understanding of R&D, S&T or manufacturing (some of this wrongly attributed to the IA officer class) based on half knowledge it would be unwise to throw out the baby with the bathwater!

Thanks. Re: link with ARTRAC - Every western army will quote the same and links with their ARTRAC equivalents. But does it work for them? Not really... I'd say the French are probably the best of the bunch but even they have issues in the system.

ARTRAC and their equivalents are usually focused on today's war not tomorrows.

Without having an understanding of R&D, manufacturing capability - there will always be an inefficient system which does not support true freedom of action/indigenous capabilities. What you'll see is continuation of the same behaviours....

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 24 Jul 2019 21:49

Aditya_V wrote:Yup Shakargarh should be the made a killing zone, rather than advance, Pakis must be destroyed and gates to Isloo opened, we should also amass enough Sam's to keep the PAF away.

For Pakistan a rapid advance by Indian Army here threatens GHQ Rawalpindi, hence most of their miltary assets are in Northern Pakjab

What if we throw a war and no one comes?

If I were to be the war planner, I would keep the door open as an invitation to the enemy to concentrate and channelize his forces into the killing zone. We have all read about the schwerpunkt idea.. i.e. to focus all firepower on a specific point in the defensive line, followed by a breakthrough and dash to the enemy communication centers, thereby resulting in an encirclement.

There is another idea with no glamorous name, where you leave a specific doors open to the enemy, leading him ever deeper into a killing zone, from which he can not escape. A very fine example of this was the Battle of Asal Uttar where once the enemy concentration was fixed, he was let into the tank killing zones.

Ultimately, our enemy in Pak is the cancerous ideology, which can not be changed till the Paki army is in charge. To kill the ideology, you have to kill the Pak army.. To kill the army, you need it to helpfully, assemble in one place. Once weakened thus by destruction of its armor and politically significant loss in territory, Pak Mil should be left in charge of a destroyed economy and impossible demands/blockades must be imposed. As they face the ire of the avg Pakistani in their inability to provide water, electricity, services.. they will finally lose the political salience. India should then be the guarantor of peace in a fractious federation, each with its own armed forces, constitution and politics.

If wishes were horses..

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 24 Jul 2019 21:59

^^sir pakis realize their limitations..i suspect their strategy would be to fall back and defend their destruction...

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 25 Jul 2019 01:42

TSPA is only prepared for a limited conventional war. If India wanted to TSP would be overrun in a matter of 2-3 weeks at best. India hasn’t done it because of the fall out and nuisance that comes after hammering them.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jul 2019 17:36

Paki Armed forces have committed numerous atrocities against Baluchis and Pathans, see what happened to Miran Shah. It is only the over whelming military superiority of the Pakjabis keeping them in check and stopped the attacks like bomb blasts temporarily. Destroy the Paki Airforce and heavy weaponry like tanks and artillery, the Pakjabis will be on the receiving end of these folks.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 25 Jul 2019 19:21

Even if their war machinery is degraded the pakjabis wont shy away from using tactical nukes or even chemical/biological weapons on the Balochs or Pakthuns or Sindhis. Their past record of using all the weapons at their disposal on their own people is indication of what they can do.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jul 2019 19:53

Vips wrote:Even if their war machinery is degraded the pakjabis wont shy away from using tactical nukes or even chemical/biological weapons on the Balochs or Pakthuns or Sindhis. Their past record of using all the weapons at their disposal on their own people is indication of what they can do.

Yup those Nukes will be on top of our targets also, thats the Pakjabis cannot afford to admit casualties on LOC, Surgical Strikes, Balakot, F-16 loss, Mar 19 LOC losses, a bit earlier 2002 operation Parakram losses. Weakness of the Paki forces means the Pathans will be up in arms for revenge. In Mar 19 there reports of Paki army trying to recruit Pathans for Jihad against India and many tribes refused- since they would know about Balakot and LOC losses.

Thats why the Peshawer Army attack, etc- there is a serious hate against the Pakijabis which is being restrained due their weapons.

And if they use Chemical and Tactical nukes against Pathans with other military assets being destroyed conflict with India, the revenge will be stronger. Nazi Germany war of Annihilation or the subsequent Soviet revenge on Germany will pale in comparison to what will happen.

Further, once strongly assets given the Qadir Khan network and various Jihadi pas sand orgs Pakis have been working with , both China and USA would by now have some checks to track and have some control on the use of these weapons.

wig · Post by **wig** » 28 Jul 2019 09:47

Lt Gen R P Singh to head Western Command, was earlier GOC 21 Corps
Lt Gen Paramjit Singh set to be new DGMO was earlier GOC 16 Corps
from here
https://www.dailyexcelsior.com/singh-to ... -new-dgmo/

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Jul 2019 13:10

interesting to hear gen rawats Q&A ...he said right now focus is on Artillery upgradations ... to be followed by Armoured after few years. focus on AD as well.....

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 28 Jul 2019 14:40

rohitvats wrote:Indian Army is strengthening the 180 degree arc around the Shakargarh bulge. Consider these two developments:

1. Akhnoor based 10 Division has been converted into a RAPID. Which means 10 Division now has 2 x Armored Regiments + 1 x Mechanized Regiments. Akhnoor as we know, features prominently in all our India-Pakistan shooting matches.

2. Creation of IBG under 9 Corps involving Pathankot and Jammu based 29 & 26 Infantry Divisions, respectively. Apart from these new IBGs, 9 Corps already has 3 independent armored brigades. That's 09 armored regiments in total. Just one short of 2 x Armored Divisions of Pakistan Army.

3. Facing them would be Pakistan's 1st Armored Division under Mangla based 1 Corps or Army Reserve North. In addition, we've independent armored brigades with Gujranwala based 30 Corps, and possibly one more independent armored brigade with Rawalpindi based 10 Corps.

4. I think we've near parity now in terms of armored regiments in the sector.

5. Not good from Pakistan's perspective because for someone looking to go on offensive in this sector, the attacked to defender ratio being close to 1, means its outnumbered from Day 1.

Interesting perspective as always Rohit. My book `2022, India's 2 front war', had most of the Pakistan related fighting in the Sakargarh bulge and addresses how we might get numerical superiority there.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 28 Jul 2019 21:46

I have a different take on the IBG concept - which I support in principle.
In the US, NATO & Russian armies formations do not typically operate at higher than brigade level. There are divisions, but their brigades have enough mobility and firepower to operate independently. The smaller strength of these armies (relative to India) may make it unviable to have a Corps-Division-Brigade structure. The PLA has combined arms armies which comprise 6 Brigades each (possibly the equivalent of our IBG).
The Pakistani and Chinese armies (before the PLA restructuring) has been division based and it made sense to oppose their division sized formations with ours.

A Western or Russian integrated brigade has, as I understand it, the firepower equivalent of an IA infantry division (and more than a IA mountain division) and is more mechanised.

IA should look at improving the firepower and mobility of its existing division sized formations. If that is not done, simply splitting divisions to create smaller IBG's will result in formations with inadequate firepower and mobility to take on a Pakistani division (which will happen before the larger number of Indian formations will start making a difference).
In the mountains I think there is a case for integrated mountain brigades (where the terrain does not enable the brigades of the existing mountain divisions to easily support each other). Here an integrated mountain brigade could include organic Artillery, engineer, anti-aircraft and helicopter support.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 29 Jul 2019 03:43

Per COAS, IBG’s are given limited objectives before the next wave (Strike corps?) arrives.

wig · Post by **wig** » 29 Jul 2019 09:54

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... epage=true

Army’s first Integrated Battle Groups to be structured by end of next month
excerpted from above

Each IBG would be tailor-made based on Threat, Terrain and Task and resources will be allotted based on the three Ts. They need to be light so they will be low on logistics, the source stated and added, “They will be able to mobilise within 12-48 hrs based on the location.”

While a command is the largest static formation of the Army spread across a defined geography, a corps is the largest mobile formation. Typically each corps has about three brigades. The idea is to reorganise them into IBGs which are brigade-sized units but have all the essential elements like infantry, armoured, artillery and air defence embedded together based on the three Ts. An IBG operating in a desert needs to be constituted differently from an IBG operating in the mountains, the source explained.

and

The key corps of the Army are likely to be reorganised into 1-3 IBGs. “Government sanction for each will be taken separately once they are constituted,” the source observed.

The IBGs will also be defensive and offensive. While the offensive IBGs would quickly mobilise and make thrust into enemy territory for strikes, defensive IBGs would hold ground at vulnerable points or where enemy action is expected. The composition of the IBGs would also depend on this.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Jul 2019 23:38

There is an error in my post above Akhnoor - A RAPID has 2 x Armored Regiments + 2 x Mechanized Regiments. Plus, 1 x Recce & Support (R&S) Regiment. These R&S can be tracked or wheeled, depending on terrain and requirement.

The link below shows 17th Battalion, The Brigade of Guards. It is a R&S (Tracked) battalion. Don't miss the battlefield surveillance radar. BTW, this used to earlier an ATGM battalion which I think also participated in Kargil War.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxx_JSgNyT4

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 30 Jul 2019 00:14

ArjunPandit wrote:^^sir pakis realize their limitations..i suspect their strategy would be to fall back and defend their destruction...

This has to be a worry for the Indian war planners.. what if we throw a war and no one comes?

If in a future war, PakMil follows the strategy of hiding their assets and personnel, thereby avoiding a whole sale dismantling that is needed, how can Indian war plans be met?

One thing that cant hide are the assets of the military. Fauji cereal factory, fauji cement factory, fauji shipping, fauji transport etc. should be legitimate war targets. As should be expropriation of land grabbed by Faujis over the decades to be distributed among the landless peasant class. Finally, we should actively plan for war crime trials in a post war situation and properly 'hang by neck till dead' at least a few generals. If all of this can be met without an occupation force in the cities, that would be golden.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 30 Jul 2019 19:18

Rohit, 17 GUARDS sent ATGM detachments but was not deployed as a unit. Same with 16 Cavalry and Scinde Horse, which had dismounted duties and VHMG detachments during Kargil respectively but weren’t deployed as units.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Jul 2019 11:14

sudeepj wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:^^sir pakis realize their limitations..i suspect their strategy would be to fall back and defend their destruction...
This has to be a worry for the Indian war planners.. what if we throw a war and no one comes?

If in a future war, PakMil follows the strategy of hiding their assets and personnel, thereby avoiding a whole sale dismantling that is needed, how can Indian war plans be met?

One thing that cant hide are the assets of the military. Fauji cereal factory, fauji cement factory, fauji shipping, fauji transport etc. should be legitimate war targets. As should be expropriation of land grabbed by Faujis over the decades to be distributed among the landless peasant class. Finally, we should actively plan for war crime trials in a post war situation and properly 'hang by neck till dead' at least a few generals. If all of this can be met without an occupation force in the cities, that would be golden.

Unfortunately for Pakis there is no land to playwith as Lahore, Sialkot and rest Shakargarh area is critical for them, Down south they dont care losing Desert areas in Sindh. Thats why most thier Assets, airbases are located here. They cant just give IA 20km withdrawal, they will loose critical land.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 31 Jul 2019 15:01

..very interesting point..i've always wondered about this..looking at the maps here
it gives me some weird idea that they are using desert as buffer to their population centers or lines of communication..Desert Ferrari (Arjun) might be put to good use to capture desert lands and bring their population centers well well within artillery fire lines ..not that they would care anyways but areas north east of tanot would be good to bring 'enemy at gates'. If we cant destroy them then at least erode their buffer..see this view of map
https://www.google.com/maps/place/India ... 4d78.96288
Rohit and others can opine on the feasibility and sanity of this

kit · Post by **kit** » 31 Jul 2019 15:22

shyamd wrote:TSPA is only prepared for a limited conventional war. If India wanted to TSP would be overrun in a matter of 2-3 weeks at best. India hasn’t done it because of the fall out and nuisance that comes after hammering them.

Not if the fall out is in containable pockets ., these are determined by the land (mountains and natural barriers) , population diversity .. for eg baluchistan can exist on it's own (with encouragement) , pakjab can go to the core paki military , the northern terrain would go to the Pashtuns , sindh can also be encouraged to think independently.. india can just sit back and enjoy the show once the federal system is down and the army is driven out.