Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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abhik
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby abhik » 07 Aug 2019 08:38

Kanson wrote:
abhik wrote:Wow, that's a pleasant surprise. Is test phase == test launch soon? Also what do we know about this system till date? All i remember is talk of 200-300 km range missile a few years back and then nothing more.

Previous govt engaged in tech transfer of long range sam seeker.

Tech transfer from whom? TIA.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby abhik » 07 Aug 2019 11:13

@kit, IMO the article seems to regurgitate some contradictory rumours/speculations. I wouldn't have posted it here, with no information forth coming from official sources, eventually these rumours become accepted facts.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 07 Aug 2019 12:09

abhik wrote:@kit, IMO the article seems to regurgitate some contradictory rumours/speculations. I wouldn't have posted it here, with no information forth coming from official sources, eventually these rumours become accepted facts.


I think you are right.. there are sources saying the other way around for the S400 radars .

Mods, can I please request for my above post to be deleted ?. Thanks !
Last edited by SSridhar on 07 Aug 2019 14:04, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Earlier post deleted

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby naird » 07 Aug 2019 17:04

From Harsh Vardhan Thakur on twitter - with regards to Astra

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1158755489385046023

"It's presently in AIM-120C-5 class. Better than R-77-1 in every respect. Maturity and surety of the missile is V important to get a good kill probability. We have some distance to go there. But not very long. ASTRA Mk2 with Solid-Fuel Ducted RamJet has a very promising prospects"

What does the bold part mean ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 07 Aug 2019 17:13

naird wrote:What does the bold part mean ?


It means what CAG pointed out in its report as demonstrated by IAF testing. It does not perform reliably to meet its performance specifications. Good news is Astra Mk2 will use SFDR!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 07 Aug 2019 17:49

abhik wrote:
Kanson wrote:Previous govt engaged in tech transfer of long range sam seeker.

Tech transfer from whom? TIA.

Israel. It was in the news. On Modi's trip to Israel.

Various drdo officials including reddy garu mentioned, India will have complete self reliance in missile tech by 2022. It is expected, we reach there between 2019 to 2022. To shorten development time, india bought & sought seeker tech in bits & peices all along.

While India's arms/tech dealings with Israel is moderated, it is completely blacked out in case with russians. And we have access to europe's as well. We know India is engaging in tech transfer on long range seeker, not much details on other players.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 07 Aug 2019 18:16

If we look at S400 system's missile components,
1. 40N6 400km - I guess we have to buy. No equivalence.
2. 48N6 250km - we are trying to develop as XRSAM
3. 9M96 120 km - this is where MRSAM barak-NG comes in
4. 9M96 40 km - Akash variants & qrsam does the job.

So just wondering, Parrikar as RM curtailed S400 units from 10 to 5 as duplication of work, citing revaluation study by iaf , which says long range system makes large number of medium & small range system redudant.
Otherway to look at it , as per me, in S400 purchase we are going to concentrate on long range missiles. Perhaps reason for cutting down to 5 units is to fill the remanings gaps with indigenous systems?
In this situation, how crucial is xrsam development, Just wondering!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby abhik » 07 Aug 2019 18:31

^^^
I very much doubt we got anything from the Israelis, its all our hard work.

XR SAM will also be needed for the Navy, when we eventually graduate to big boy destroyers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 07 Aug 2019 18:33

The cut down in #s for S-400 IMO is due to high cost Russians were demanding well over 10 billion if I recall correctly. Even then they are fleecing us If you look at breakdown of missiles China got much better bargain than us (of course apologists will claim it has nuclear deal, inflation etc).

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 07 Aug 2019 20:06

Please provide the link. AFAIK no such news was reported.

Kanson wrote:
abhik wrote:Tech transfer from whom? TIA.

Israel. It was in the news. On Modi's trip to Israel.

Various drdo officials including reddy garu mentioned, India will have complete self reliance in missile tech by 2022. It is expected, we reach there between 2019 to 2022. To shorten development time, india bought & sought seeker tech in bits & peices all along.

While India's arms/tech dealings with Israel is moderated, it is completely blacked out in case with russians. And we have access to europe's as well. We know India is engaging in tech transfer on long range seeker, not much details on other players.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 07 Aug 2019 20:08

Which CAG report? AFAIK they never reported on Astra performance. Only about initial set of Akash rounds, issues were fixed and several rounds of trials occurred later on.

HVT is saying something else entirely IMHO. He expects the IAF to use the 50 order LSP to test the missile across ops conditions and ensure consistency of round production and performance.

tsarkar wrote:
naird wrote:What does the bold part mean ?


It means what CAG pointed out in its report as demonstrated by IAF testing. It does not perform reliably to meet its performance specifications. Good news is Astra Mk2 will use SFDR!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 07 Aug 2019 20:46

Karan M wrote:Which CAG report? AFAIK they never reported on Astra performance. Only about initial set of Akash rounds, issues were fixed and several rounds of trials occurred later on.

HVT is saying something else entirely IMHO. He expects the IAF to use the 50 order LSP to test the missile across ops conditions and ensure consistency of round production and performance.

tsarkar wrote:
It means what CAG pointed out in its report as demonstrated by IAF testing. It does not perform reliably to meet its performance specifications. Good news is Astra Mk2 will use SFDR!


I was referring to the R-77 that naird was asking about and the associated CAG report.

Astra Mk1 has met all testing criteria and is on track for induction to replace R-77 with Mk2 having SFDR.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 07 Aug 2019 21:31

"While India's arms/tech dealings with Israel is moderated, it is completely blacked out in case with russians"

The problem with remarks like this, is that it can easily become a weapon in the hands of India opponents and critics( including within India) who look out for any info that questions how indigenous a product is. Perhaps the Indian concerns could be a little more forthright to clear up any uncertainty?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 07 Aug 2019 22:57

Varoon Shekhar wrote:"While India's arms/tech dealings with Israel is moderated, it is completely blacked out in case with russians"

The problem with remarks like this, is that it can easily become a weapon in the hands of India opponents and critics( including within India) who look out for any info that questions how indigenous a product is. Perhaps the Indian concerns could be a little more forthright to clear up any uncertainty?


one small issue being the CAATSA, i think the tactical deals will be open but not much on strategic ones, no need to worry about what we don't know !!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 08 Aug 2019 00:16

KaranM The order for LSP 50 is to set up sufficient qty of production for a lot of kinks will be found in production of the Astra from prototype o rate productions. These mfg kinks will be more severe than any use issues.
Weak solder joins,parts cracking during assy, incorrect soldering etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 08 Aug 2019 10:24

I am guessing HVT mixed up Astra MK2 with SFDR. MK2 is supposed to have dual pulse motor. Unless something changed between AI2019 and now, its still on track with dual pulse motor.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karthik S » 11 Aug 2019 11:48

Guys, just a thought, little late I know, how will S-400 and Indian C 17, C 130J and even Rafale communicate? Don't think americans will allow that. Does that mean Those planes will not operate in the theater where S-400 are deployed?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 11 Aug 2019 19:17

Karthik S wrote:Guys, just a thought, little late I know, how will S-400 and Indian C 17, C 130J and even Rafale communicate? Don't think americans will allow that. Does that mean Those planes will not operate in the theater where S-400 are deployed?


CABS develops IFF system
Scientific Advisor to the defence minister, V K Saraswat on Wednesday said the Centre for Air-Borne Systems (CABS), a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratory, had successfully developed and ‘productionised’ an Identification of Friend or Foe (IFF) system.

Stating that the system would be fitted on the Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft, to be received from Brazil soon, Saraswat said: “IFF Mk-12(S), the latest version of the warning system, can be fitted on any platform, including aircraft, ships, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) and also on missiles.

“The IFF Mk-12(S) is a spin-off to the AEW&C programme and contains an integrator, transponder and combined interrogator and transponder to meet the needs of tri-services,” he said.

“An indigenous IFF is not only a requirement for AEW&C, it is also a requirement of the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas. So once the product is available in large numbers it will find a place in all DRDO developed aircraft platforms, including LCA, ALH and so on,” Saraswat added.

All the existing aircraft currently have an older version of IFF––Mk-10––and have now been mandated to upgrade to MK-12. The DRDO is expecting a large order from the Indian Air Force (IAF).

CABS Director S Christopher said that the lab had adapted the design conforming to the international standard- ICAO/STANAG 4193 - for its IFF.
...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rrao » 11 Aug 2019 19:51

srai wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Guys, just a thought, little late I know, how will S-400 and Indian C 17, C 130J and even Rafale communicate? Don't think americans will allow that. Does that mean Those planes will not operate in the theater where S-400 are deployed?


CABS develops IFF system
Scientific Advisor to the defence minister, V K Saraswat on Wednesday said the Centre for Air-Borne Systems (CABS), a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratory, had successfully developed and ‘productionised’ an Identification of Friend or Foe (IFF) system.

Stating that the system would be fitted on the Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft, to be received from Brazil soon, Saraswat said: “IFF Mk-12(S), the latest version of the warning system, can be fitted on any platform, including aircraft, ships, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) and also on missiles.

“The IFF Mk-12(S) is a spin-off to the AEW&C programme and contains an integrator, transponder and combined interrogator and transponder to meet the needs of tri-services,” he said.

“An indigenous IFF is not only a requirement for AEW&C, it is also a requirement of the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas. So once the product is available in large numbers it will find a place in all DRDO developed aircraft platforms, including LCA, ALH and so on,” Saraswat added.

All the existing aircraft currently have an older version of IFF––Mk-10––and have now been mandated to upgrade to MK-12. The DRDO is expecting a large order from the Indian Air Force (IAF).

CABS Director S Christopher said that the lab had adapted the design conforming to the international standard- ICAO/STANAG 4193 - for its IFF.
...


HAL has developed IFFMK-XII few years back and supplied to customer.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 12 Aug 2019 02:59

^^^
That would be the same one as CABS IFF Mk-12, which was ready and ‘productionized’ in 2012.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 12 Aug 2019 21:20

Prem Kumar wrote:Any particular advantage/disadvantage of MMW vs Ku-band seekers?

1) Wiki tells me that MMW seekers suffer more atmospheric attenuation. Is that why they're not preferred for A2A or SAM applications?
2) If so, why is MMW preferred for an ATGM role vs Ku-band? Better resolution?

mmW seeker is ideal for very small diameter missiles that require good spatial (angular) resolution RF imaging.
Not to mention, super wide bandwidth available for LPI.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Aug 2019 23:31

Thanks Haridas!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Aug 2019 04:55

Has this been reported here it seems now Brahmos batteries are going to replace the Styx in coastal defences role. Good news

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 16 Aug 2019 05:21

Yes. Finally the coastal batteries Styx are crossing the river Styx!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby VinodTK » 17 Aug 2019 01:44

Security Scan - QRSAM- Quick Reaction Surface-to-Air Missile


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 Aug 2019 03:19

Incredible video. 2 of the panelists were gold! The journalist as usual..halfway house. But what an info packed program. Thanks VinodTK.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 17 Aug 2019 14:06

Aditya_V wrote:Has this been reported here it seems now Brahmos batteries are going to replace the Styx in coastal defences role. Good news


Hope these are the 500 Km variants. This will create a 500 Km protective bubble around India's vast shoreline. Quite incredible if we make this happen.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Aug 2019 23:12

Karan M wrote:Incredible video. 2 of the panelists were gold! The journalist as usual..halfway house. But what an info packed program. Thanks VinodTK.

Great video, I'm not sure why they wasted time on that HT editor.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 18 Aug 2019 05:15

Great video. I wish that they had not gone to AI. That's not AI does. The explanation of the role and structure of QRSAM was great!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Philip » 19 Aug 2019 00:16

Let's not waste the old Stx rounds.Send them to the Styx...the Rann of Kutch area to pound the Pakis from closer range.There was a v.good feature on telly of this unique and desolate area and thd way in which the BSF patrol it usinv various eqpt.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 19 Aug 2019 03:10

Indranil wrote:Great video. ... The explanation of the role and structure of QRSAM was great!

Wasn’t clear how the QRSAM fit the IAF? Sounded like Akash SR would be sufficient for covering mostly static/semi-static VA/VP.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 19 Aug 2019 07:28

Possible replacement for OSA-AKM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 29 Aug 2019 00:39

JayS wrote:The additional protrusion of longer BVR is precisely why I am thinking more about it. The dual pylon setup for MK1A did cross my mind and its not too much to expect the outboard pylon will easily host a BVR in terms of weight, when a CCM can be put at wing tip.

The length difference in CCM and BVR is about 0.5m or so.

Given many fighters do have BVR mounted with significant protrusion ahead of the wing LE, I think, MWF should have no problem.


JayS, So what will it take to put a IIR seeker on and Astra and get a quick CCM?
Will it be less agile?
The advantage is it will be powered all the way.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 29 Aug 2019 17:47

^^^
A Desi MICA IR/RF

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 29 Aug 2019 18:38

Karan M wrote:Possible replacement for OSA-AKM.

It is listed as SA-6 replacement as well in some news briefs along with OSA.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 29 Aug 2019 21:25

John wrote:
Karan M wrote:Possible replacement for OSA-AKM.

It is listed as SA-6 replacement as well in some news briefs along with OSA.


The two SA-6 Missile Groups in Indian Army were with 1 and 2 Strike Corps, respectively. Simply because these two Corps hold most of the armor & other prime assets and they were given the best SAM AD asset available at the time. But do note that these SAM Groups were not part of the armored division but AD Brigade held by the Corps HQ.

If you look at induction of Akash into the Indian Army, first two regiments have gone to Pivot Corps. Since these Corps are not expected to go too deep into Pakistan, Akash can provide AD umbrella to them.

QR_SAM is a genuine mobile SAM and in my opinion, Strike Corps will become the first customers of this type. Secondly, what needs to be seen is whether it becomes organic to AD Brigade of Armored Divisions or is held at Corps HQ level. My bet is on latter.

Reason being, the distributed nature of deployment that is possible allows batteries to be detached from the regiment and give AD cover to sub-units.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gyan » 29 Aug 2019 21:29

DRDO cites Astra as CCM + BVR. Perhaps that's why it has big mid body fins.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 29 Aug 2019 22:06

ramana wrote:
JayS wrote:The additional protrusion of longer BVR is precisely why I am thinking more about it. The dual pylon setup for MK1A did cross my mind and its not too much to expect the outboard pylon will easily host a BVR in terms of weight, when a CCM can be put at wing tip.

The length difference in CCM and BVR is about 0.5m or so.

Given many fighters do have BVR mounted with significant protrusion ahead of the wing LE, I think, MWF should have no problem.


JayS, So what will it take to put a IIR seeker on and Astra and get a quick CCM?
Will it be less agile?
The advantage is it will be powered all the way.


I have already said somewhere that I would like to see Astra's IIR version along with the RF version. But in current airframe, its not agile enough for being a CCM. We need a fresh airframe IMO.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Gyan » 30 Aug 2019 10:22

IIR is/was used in AAM as it's cheaper, lighter not because it's better compared to RF seeker. Its possible that Astra MK1 cost & maneuverabilty has improved to an extent that it can play the role of both CCM & BVR. Even MICA apart from cost is expected to play both roles. For eg, ASRAAM is a CCM without lots of fins, TVC or side thrusters.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 31 Aug 2019 23:36

[quote="Karan M"]Please provide the link. AFAIK no such news was reported.

It was reported in Indian news portal on Modi's first trip to Israel. I currently dont have that link/archive.


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