J&K Union Territory-2019

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KLNMurthy
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by KLNMurthy »

UlanBatori wrote:In this tamasha, what is needed is to get entertainers to speak with sympathy for the nationalist pov. You or I saying "Abrogation of 370 was good!" is not the same as say, Amitabh Baachan saying it or Madhuri Dixit crooning it. All sympathy I may have for Kashmiris comes from remembering Mumtazji in "Roti Kapda Aur Makaan". I see that Anupam Kher has come with something on the genocide against the KH. Good! Much more needed along these lines.

Indian movie-going/TV-watching public need to get the message across to the entertainers (Bollywood etc) that they need to be seen as coming on board at this critical time (or face irrelevance and disdain). I wonder how to accomplish this - the only domain where "we" have any clout is Teetar: not even fB.

I am not just :(( . I am seeking some brainshtaarming and acshun.
Generally, if you want movie star's clout on your side, you would have to "buy" it with clout of your own. That means either having a "commodity" like popularity (which if you did, this question wouldn't arose in the first place) or "manufacturing" clout through organization, which requires money and organizational skills. Clout could be expressed as power to build (buy the stars & their vehicles, i.e.. movie production) or power to harm. Bollywood stars sing the mafia's tune, since they have this kind of clout.

Shiv Sena under late Thackeray followed this model with some success. High risk, low resources (can trade risk for resources as one goes along) but relatively quick results.

For BRFites the inactive, passive option is to do nothing and hope that the bollywood ecosystem produces more random "good guys" like Vivek Agnihotri. Less passive option is to talk & educate--lots of uninfluential, uncharismatic people coming together on a common platform and building networks of influence over time. This is the RSS way. Low risk, modest resources, slow results.

More active option is to organize a BRF consortium of investors to produce a mega-blockbuster nationalist-themed screen franchise like Marvel movie series and generate stars of our own. High resource level, quick results.

Mixed approach: invest (not necessarily just financially) and buy control in some of already-existing influence-mongering institutions to achieve measurable results.

Keywords: resources, organization, commitment, risk, measurability, talent
KLNMurthy
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by KLNMurthy »

disha wrote:Added later:

EU was a blowback. Some of it was expected, not in the scale seen

Defeat in Crimea and Syria was not anticipated.

Weakening of S. Barbaria and its own disastrous war in Yemen and slump in global economy and slump in oil production was not foreseen

Rise of technology to move ideas and create efficiencies was not understood.
Common factor in Syria and Crimea was underestimation of Russia's capabilities and will.

That is to say, bad intelligence and analysis.

Seeing it again in the case of Modi's India.
KLNMurthy
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by KLNMurthy »

pankajs wrote:^^
At the very least, Bakis need Indian decision on A.370/35A to be rolled back. Forget getting it rolled back, has the US admin spoken of the need for a rollback yet?
Failing that, at least they should have worked for a face saving official statement out of UNSC criticizing (Not asking for a rollback) the Indian move. Did they do that?
Failing that, they should at least have come out with a China like statement on the Indian move. Did anyone hear any such statement?
Failing that, they should at least have release an "off the record" / anonymous quote to say that US admin is unhappy with the Indian move. Did we read about any such?

All we heard at first was "US notes India has stated that it is an Internal matter" followed by the latest off the record "It is an Internal matter for India" and folks are unable to digest an US president flopping around.

Are we this insecure?
"We" is the ecosystem. It has the levers in its hands to spread FUD.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by IndraD »

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ ... -1.5251593
as per Tarek Fatah during Indian independence day ruckus in Toronto an Indian who got beaten up by Paxi was arrested
He said in Canada just like UK Indians are professionals mostly , hard working, contributing to society where as Pax are regular at mosques from where they take orders. They resonate strongly from street to parliament.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Manish_Sharma »

banrjeer wrote:
Tarek Fatah and Tahir Gora are vehemently pro-Modi. No need for Wapasi there. They are not the only ones. The tide will grow.
We thought so too at times of mujiburrahman & mukti bahini too, same bangladeshis at time of Vajpayee returned mutilated bodies of BSF men. Same bangladeshis are now exodusing Hindus from Bangladesh
ramana
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by ramana »

KLNM, Working on VA.
ramana
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by ramana »

ORF is an Ambani funded US pasand den of acolytes in Dilli.

Khalid Shah is speaking through his fez.

GOI is not going after high profile terrorists as they are in hiding.
Only low level terrorists are roaming and getting hit.
AS has repeatedly said terrorists will be shot.
chetak
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by chetak »

UlanBatori wrote:With all respect, I suggest that the "re-HiFi-nation" is happening partly because of ppl's khulji on this thread. This is **NOT**** the India-Terroristan thread. It is the JAMMU & KASHMIR UNION TERRITORY thread.

So what is happening in J&K?
Answer: **NOTHING*** :((

Look at the sad plight of the UQ Guardian:
Kashmir: suspected militant killed in Indian security operation
Incident is believed to be first clash with insurgents since revocation of special status
OK, they can't help lying, they are British. This is **NOT** the first clash with terrorists: that has been happening practically every day at the LOC. This appears to be the first time that terrorists managed to sneak far inside and THEN get pest-e-sha'eeded. IOW, cockroaches have always been trying to get into the house through the a/c vents etc, but this is the first time one got as far as the dining room before receiving the Heavenly Chappal Welcome (HCW).

The real news: SITUATION NAARMAL. Day 15 done. Restrictions relaxed in most areas **NOT** infested with terrorists.
sirji,

we are being rehyphenated by trump and the US SD

need to understand why, particularly at this time.
pankajs
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by pankajs »

Too many people worried about re-hype-wahatever. We need to get out of that mental prison.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by IndraD »

@khamenei_ir https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir/status/ ... 9894953984
We’re concerned about Muslims’ situation in #Kashmir. We have good relations with India, but we expect the Indian government to adopt a just policy towards the noble people of Kashmir and prevent the oppression & bullying of Muslims in this region.
:shock:
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by A_Gupta »

pankajs wrote:Too many people worried about re-hype-wahatever. We need to get out of that mental prison.
Yes. Imagine you are Denmark, denying Trump's request to purchase Greenland; and Trump then snubs you by cancelling his scheduled visit. If a tiny country of around 6 million is not lederhosen-shivering, why should anyone in India dhoti-shiver?
ramana
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by ramana »

Chetak, DT got trumped on Cashmere.
Hence has to show US is still relevant to the power structure.

Cashmere was integrated without the Crimea hungama.

Think on those lines.


Hakim, Khamenei's guru Khomeini was from Kashmir!!!
Hence "noble people of Kashmir".
Not Shela jan
pankajs
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by pankajs »

Iran has pulled similar stunts in the past too. They wanted India to defy the US embargo on Iran and India did not and this is an opportunity for them to show their discontent.

Par for the course. The statement is crafted carefully to evade the core while still poking India.

1. No mention of 370 or lock down.
2. Use of mild words "concern", "just policy", "prevent oppression".

GOI can live with that. IIRC, even US expressed it "concerns" while fully backing India at UNSC earlier. This is politics where multiple audience are sought to be addressed.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Vips »

Jammu and Kashmir internal issue of India, says Bangladesh.
Bangladesh has described the prevailing imbroglio in Jammu and Kashmir as an internal issue of India.

"Bangladesh maintains that the abrogation of Article 370 by the Indian government is an internal issue of India," the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said on Wednesday sharing Bangladesh's position on Jammu and Kashmir.

It said Bangladesh has always advocated, as a matter of principle, that maintaining regional peace and stability, as well as development should be a priority for all countries.
Karthik S
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Karthik S »

ramana wrote:Chetak, DT got trumped on Cashmere.
Hence has to show US is still relevant to the power structure.

Cashmere was integrated without the Crimea hungama.

Think on those lines.


Hakim, Khamenei's guru Khomeini was from Kashmir!!!
Hence "noble people of Kashmir".
Not Shela jan
Ramana sir, that line would be applicable when/if we take back PoK. Till now what we did was inside our LoC.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by SBajwa »

sanjaykumar wrote:Maharaja Ranjit Singh, after the Dogra general Zorawar Singh's conquest, is said to have wanted reconversion of KM but the KP were against the idea.
Yep! Maharaja Ranjit singh banned beef in Kashmir and enforced it with death sentence.
Deans
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Deans »

I've been away from the forum for the past week. My article on Kashmir, in Swarajya, on how the state can be developed.
https://swarajyamag.com/blogs/naya-jamm ... ay-forward

My co-author Ms Kriti Upadhyaya has just joined a leading think tank in DC, as a research associate, looking at South Asia. Her views are in sync with this forum. (our previous article appears earlier in this thread)
KLNMurthy
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by KLNMurthy »

pankajs wrote:Too many people worried about re-hype-wahatever. We need to get out of that mental prison.
hyphenation-geephenation is only a symbolic construct, leftover from the days when the only fights Indian leadership could have were symbolic ones. No one outside India cares about hyphenation. No one inside India should. Is there some way that India's decisions will be made to change, just by saying the word "Pakistan" in the same breath as India?
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Rudradev »

The only thing sillier than our having worried about "hyphenation" in the first place is worrying today about "re-hyphenation". We have progressed far, far beyond the state of affairs when the chattering classes of the West could elevate or lower the status of India by deploying a punctuation mark.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by UlanBatori »

rdji, thx for the post about the way to win hearts and minds of the videogenic/entertainers. One strategy is to position Ab-370 as the Anti-Establishment position. That always appeals to the young and hot/empty-headed (no insults aimed at present company..)
This is the only way I can explain the attitude I see among absolutely brilliant and otherwise level-headed desi youngsters (I mean college ishtudant age).

Obviously it is not against Indian Government. Can there be a hype about Rising Against the Organized Gang of Western Media? I would say there is enough content as well as enough seeds sown for that, with the latest from Arnab, was it, calling BBC liars. May be a terrific opportunity.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by SBajwa »

sanjaykumar wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: Source?


This is part of the legends of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Perhaps SBajwa can provide scholarly confirmation.
Evaluation of Sikh Rule in Kashmir

If one picks up any college history or even school book in the state of Jammu & Kashmir, the Sikh or Sarkar Khalsa (as Maharaja Ranjit Singh referred his state) rule from 1819 to 1846 is termed as 'exploitative' and 'oppressive'.

In 1819, Maharaja Ranjit Singh annexed Kashmir which ended the Afghan rule. This was first time in 500 years that a non-Islamic government was ruling Kashmir. Maharaja Ranjit Singh's government was a mixture of Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims. As I discuss the Sarkar Khalsa's rule, I will try to evaluate the allegations of 'exploitive' and 'oppressive'. During the 27 years of rule, a number of governors were appointed. We will examine each of them.

Diwan Moti Ram (1819-20)
He was the son of famous Diwan Mohkam Chand, a Hindu Khatri who was at the service of both Maha Singh and his son Ranjit Singh. Lepen Griffin calls him "the best governor", who was "kind-hearted and liked by the people". He introduced number of measures

Cow slaughter was banned, as it was in all territories under Sarkar Khalsa,
Call for public Azan was stopped,
Congregational prayers on Fridays in the Jama Masjid of Srinagar were stopped
The Afghan soldiers used to kidnap the pretty girls for their ever expanding harems. This practice came to an end,
The terror of Sikh name brought an end to thefts and robbery.

In all other religious matters, Muslims were given full freedom. They could pray in any other mosque and celebrate their festivals. Many of them were in the government. However, the first three measures were enough for 'Muslim' writers and historians to declare the rule as exploitive' and 'oppressive'. Cow had a religious and sentimental value for the minority Hindu community (Muslim formed the majority in Sarkar Khalsa's territory) hence it was banned. A public call for Islamic prayer is called Azan. It is done 5 times a day. As the state was ruled on the principles of secularism, perhaps it was banned. The congregation prayer on Friday, at the main mosque was banned as it attracted mass gathering and it could potentially be used to incite or instigate a revolt against the government. In hindsight it was not a smart move. However this did not meant that anyone was stopped from performing 'namaz'. Ranjit Singh's cabinet and military included several Muslims. The majority of the artillery was under the Muslims.

Cholera

Dr Hari Ram Gupta writes that the Sikh rule was welcomed both by Hindus and Muslims but Moti Ram had to contend with a natural calamity. Cholera took a heavy toll of the population, shortly after the occupation of Kashmir. Diwan Devi Das from Lahore was deputed to report on the condition of the country. He presented a painful picture of the people. The grain was scarce and due to difficult terrain it was difficult and time consuming to send them to the rural areas. In desperation people were willing to sell their children for food and it had an impact on law and order. It was reported that Moti Ram was doing his best, but his officers lacked sympathy.

In 1820 his eldest son, Ram Dayal, a fine soldier, was killed in Hazara at the age of about 20. Moti Ram was so heartbroken that he resigned his governorship in June, 1820, and retired to Banaras.

HSNalwa (65K)Hari Singh Nalwa (1820)
Hari Singh Nalwa was perhaps the greatest military general under Maharaja Ranjit Singh. He introduced various measures

Removed all the restrictions imposed on Kashmiri Pandits under the Afghan rule regarding worship, dress, and some customs.
The Hindus forcibly converted to Islam were allowed to return to their original religion.
Abolished 'Begar' meaning forcible unpaid service by villagers to government officials.
Reduced the government share in the produce of saffron, and thus encouraged its cultivation.
Insisted on right type of weight and measures.
Constructed Gurdwara at Kathi Darwaza, Srinagar, Matan and Baramula, which were associated with the visit of first and sixth Guru of the Sikhs namely Guru Nanak and Guru Hargobind.

Nalwa being military personnel was a strict disciplinarian and sometimes people who made mistakes were treated harshly. DC Sharma based on unpublished manuscript by William Moorcroft who travelled to Kashmir one year after Nalwa's departure alleges that Nawla forcibly collected 25 lakh rupees for himself. One needs to read other historians to understand the highly moral character and ethics of the great General. It a wrong accusation and not backed by any other source. In addition to being a strict disciplinarian, Nalwa may well have become unpopular with the majority community due to some of the above measures. When this was reported to the Maharaja, he diplomatically transferred Hari Singh and reappointed Diwan Moti Ram.Diwan Moti Ram's Second Governorship (1821-26)
Moti Ram persuaded the Maharaja to reduce the Kashmir tribute from 52 lakhs to 26 lakhs. He checked corruption in the administration, developed agriculture, industry and trade (both internal and external).RajaDhianSingh (62K)Raja Dhian Singh Dogra, Prime Minister at Lahore was opposed to the existence of other powerful families at the Lahore Durbar. He held a quite an influence on Maharaja and his son, Hira Singh was Maharaja's favourite. Only the 3 Dogra brothers (Gulab Singh, Dhian Singh & Suchet Singh) and Hira Singh Dogra were confirmed the title of 'Raja' during the reign of Ranjit Singh. Dhian Singh wanted to have his own people in all the key positions in the state. He poisoned the ears of the Maharaja against Moti Ram who was dismissed in June, 1826. To console him the Maharaja made Moti Ram a member of the mission to Shimla in 1827.

Law and order under the Sarkar Khalsa in Kashmir was very good. The Sikh army only had 3,000 infantry and 1,000 cavalry. During the previous rule, the Afghan governors maintained a force between 16,000 and 20,000.

Chuni Lal (1826-27)
Chuni Lal, a protégé and a 'pliant tool' of the Dhian Singh Dogra was appointed Governor of Kashmir. His real objective was to bring Kashmir under the direction of Jammu (Gulab Singh had internal autonomy over Jammu). The Maharaja disliked hearing complaint about his Prime Minister and said many times that the complaint against Dhian Singh should only be made to the immortal God!

Chuni Lal had little skill at administration. Over a case of cow slaughter, the guilty persons were hanged and their bodies were dragged through the main bazars of Srinagar. This created great commotion, and he was recalled in November, 1827.

Diwan Kirpa Ram (1827-31)
In December, 1827, Maharaja appointed Diwan Moti Ram's second son, Diwan Kirpa Ram, governor of Kashmir. Earlier he had held charge of Hazara and the Jalandhar Doab. According to Lepen Griffin both father and son were the best governors of Kashmir. HR Gupta writes that Kirpa Ram like his father and grandfather was very honest and incorruptible. He constructed many fine buildings and lovely gardens at Srinagar.

Earthquake, Cholera & Jihad
During his governorship, the great earthquake of 1828 took place and a large number of buildings and houses collapsed. It was followed by the cholera epidemic. To make matters worse, the Bambas and Kakkas community rose in rebellion at the instigation of Syed Ahmad Barelvi. Interestingly the Syed who was a Wahabi from Uttar Pradesh and had declared Jihad against Ranjit Singh found no support among Punjabi Muslims. The Maharaja was able to integrate Punjabis but in Kashmir the majority community saw his rule as alien.

On flimsy grounds, Dhian Singh Dogra persuaded the Maharaja to dismiss Kirpa Ram and he was removed in February 1831. Later the Maharaja granted him the jagir of Kunjah worth 3 lakhs annually in December, 1831 but the Diwan felt humiliated and later crossed into British territory and never returned to the Punjab. HR Gupta writes that Dhian Singh "admirably succeeded in eliminating one great and influential family at the Court."

Bhama Singh Ardali (1831)

The Maharaja was very busy with the final battle with Syed Ahmed Barelvi and no one was sent to Kashmir. Bhama Singh Ardali who was already in Kashmir, took charge in January, 1831. He was poor administrator. During his tenure Sunni-Shia riots broke out. Ardali failed to control them. There was an enormous loss of life and property. It is mentioned that about 300 Irani Shia merchants who had permanently settled in the valley went back to Iran. Ardali was recalled in November, 1831.

Kunwar Shere Singh later became Maharaja (105K) Prince Sher Singh (1832-34)

Kunwar Sher Singh, son of Maharaja Ranjit Singh who had crushed Barelvi's Jihad (he was killed as well) was given the governorship of Kashmir. He was also very close to the Dogras. Sher Singh was a very good military commander but had little interest in civil duties. Realising this, Maharaja had send Wasakha Singh to look after the revenue but he forcibly collected from the traders over 7 lakhs (for himself) and remitted another 2 lakhs to the Lahore treasury. The Maharaja's intelligence informed him and Wasakha Singh was brought to Lahore in chains and a hefty fine was realised from him.

The Maharaja tried a balancing act, a trio - two Sikhs and one Muslim, were appointed to look after the revenue. They were Jamadar Khushhal Singh (Brahmin from Meerut who became Sikh), Gurmukh Singh and Sheikh Ghulam Mohiuddin. Regrettably, they came to an understanding to share the loot in common. Jamadar was later on censured, while Ghulam Mohiuddin's property was confiscated.

Famine

In 1833 a serious famine broke out in Kashmir. A large number of people died of starvation. Many migrated to Punjab and British India.

The Maharaja sent large quantities of grain laden on thousands of donkeys. In villages grain was distributed through mosques and temples. In big towns and cities of Kashmir, the troops collected people in open spaces in rows and each was given two kg of grain daily for their families.

Mihan Singh (1834-41)
On 14th February, 1832, Mohan Lal Kashmiri recorded in his diary "Mihan Singh is the bravest commander in Ranjit Singh's army, and has fought a great many battles, in which he has received many wounds."

Colonel Mihan Singh took charge of his new post in October, 1834 and appointed Pandit Ganesh Dar as his Chief Minister. They took the following measures

Abolished duties on grain and other necessary articles of daily consumption.
Imported large quantities of grain and poultry from the Punjab.
Black marketers were severely punished.
To encourage cultivation, he gave relief in land revenue, and granted 'taqavi' loans liberally to cultivators.
He promoted trade by reducing tariff duties. Shawl factory owners were given loans to increase production. Imports and exports with Ladakh, Punjab, British India, Afghanistan and Central Asia were developed.
Serais were built at convenient places for traders and travellers.
Facilities of credit and correspondence through state postal service were provided.
Suppressed an organized body of thugs called Galwans. They roamed about, committed dacoities, and carried off beautiful girls. Khaira Galwan was their leader. Mihan Singh rooted them out (Vigne).
He laid out 'Basant Bagh' and planted fine chinar trees which still exist in that garden. The tribal revolts were crushed with a strong hand.
Complied 'Tarikh i Kashmir', a document of much historical and economic importance

Mihan Singh & Dogras - shawl trade
Jia Lal Kalam has given a good account of this dispute. The shawl weavers and shawl merchants were Shias, and as a result of Shia-Sunni riots, the Shias were leaving the valley for Amritsar, Ludhiana & Jammu. The natural calamities made the things worst. Meanwhile Raja Gulab Singh Dogra was encouraging weavers in Jammu. Following the occupation of Kishtwar, a shorter though a difficult route was opened to Ladakh where the wool for the shawls came. Gulab Singh managed to divert the wool direct to Jammu through his newly acquired district of Kishtwar. This resulted in considerable damage to shawl industry of Kashmir and consequently there was unemployment and poverty. Mihan Singh tried to apprise the Maharaja of this state of affairs, but due to the presence of Dhian Singh Dogra, who was the Prime Minister at Lahore, the information was kept back from the Maharaja. Finally a letter was sent through a trusted servant and with a direction that he should deliver the letter directly in the hand of the Maharaja. The Maharaja expressed his dissatisfaction and some raw wool started coming to Kashmir.

Mihan Singh & Dogras had a bit of history. According to Brigadier Gurbachan Singh Bal, earlier in 1834 when the situation in Ladakh became favourable, Mihan Singh had expressed a desire to lead a campaign to the province but Dhian Singh Dogra was able to convince the Maharaja to allow Gulab Singh Dogra to do it, who instructed Zorawar Singh to carry out the mission. Mihan Singh was asked to cooperate with Jammu. Later when Ladakhi revolted, Dogras accused Mihan Singh for instigating it.

Sadly, after the death of Maharaja, the state of intrigues in Lahore had an impact at Kashmir. Soon after Maharaja Sher Singh's accession, two battalions of the Sikh army in Kashmir revolted and in April 1841 assassinated Mihan Singh at his residence in Srinagar. Pandit Ganesh Dar who had been personally honoured by Maharaja at Lahore also died within a fortnight of Mihan Singh's death.

Sheikh Ghulam Mohiuddin (23K)Sheikh Ghulam Mohiuddin (1841-46)
Ghulam Mohiuddin had previously been recalled from Kashmir for being harsh and corrupt but he was a changed man by now. He started as the Governor of Kashmir in 1841 and appointed Pandit Tilak Chand Munshi as his Chief Minister. They continued the good work by Mihan Singh & Pandit Ganesh Dar and took the following measures

Jama Masjid which was kept closed for public prayers since 1819 was now left open for prayers.
After winning goodwill, he supressed the frontier Muslim hill chieftains who having taken advantage of prevailing turmoil and had become semi-independent.
Streamlined the administration
Laid two gardens which to this day commemorate their names, Sheikh Bagh and Munshi Bagh.

Sheikh Ghulam Mohiuddin died in 1845 and was buried in the Khanaqah of Shaikh Hamza Makkhum, Hari Parbat in Srinagar. He was succeeded by his son Sheikh Imamuddin.

Sheikh Imamuddin (17K)Sheikh Imamuddin (1845-46)
The younger Sheikh kept Pandit Tilak Chand Munshi as his Chief Minister. He took various measures to promote shawl trade

Paddy was supplied to the weavers from the state granaries at a price which was less by two annas in a rupee.
The shawl manufacturers were directed to give the weavers a bonus of three percent from their profits.
Ordered increments for the weavers.

This improved the economic stature and reduced the dependence of weavers on their employers for small advances, who would previously reduce them to a status of almost slaves. Despite the good work, he had to leave. Following the defeat of Sarkar Khalsa in first Anglo-Sikh war, Raja Gulab Singh Dogra was rewarded with a title of Maharaja and allowed to purchase Kashmir for 75 lakh rupees in March 1846.

The arrangement was resented by Raja Lal Singh (Brahmin from Jhelum who became Sikh), who had colluded with British during the war. In a private communication he instructed Shaikh Imamuddin to obstruct handing over to Gulab Singh. Ultimately Major Henry Lawrence had to intervene to whom he surrendered. Imamuddin was tried by the British at Lahore but was exonerated when he produced original letters written by Raja Lal Singh. His property in Lahore, which was earlier confiscated, was restored to him. He died in March 1859 at the early age of 40 and was buried in the vicinity of the tomb of the famous Sufi, Data Ganj Bakhsh, at Lahore.

Conclusion

Baron (50K)The celebrated Austrian traveller Baron Charles Hugel passed right across Kashmir in 1835-36. He states that the people seemed contented with the justice dealt out to them and no more than one guilty person in every twenty was ever punished for his crimes. The dreadful cruelties perpetrated by their earlier rulers, who, for the smallest offence, punished them with the loss of their noses or ears, made the poor people well satisfied with their present comparatively mild government. He further writes "in truth, there was very little oppression on the part of the governors or police officers".

There is no doubt that some of senior officials were greedy and corrupt but they were immediately recalled to Lahore and were punished. Unfortunately Nature played havoc during the Sikh rule in Kashmir. Some of the measures like ban on cow slaughter and Azan were seen as anti-Muslim. Hence in the eyes of most historians it was an oppressive regime. Syed Ahmed Barelvi's call for Jihad against Maharaja Ranjit Singh found support in Kashmir unlike Punjabi Muslims who were not interested in it. Sectarian historians totally ignore the good work done with the Governors (who were Sikh, Hindus and Muslims) and the role played by Mother Nature. The rule was neither anti-Muslim nor pro-Hindu.

Unfortunately, we are very good at dividing history. As Sikhs blame Dogras for loss of Empire, the latter are happy for state historians to describe Sikh rule as 'exploitive'. Mihan Singh, among Dogras is known as the Sikh Governor who was jealous of them. They have not bothered to look into the change of dynamics of shawl trade between Jammu & region of Kashmir. As Sikhs are few in Jammu & Kashmir and not part of any vote bank, the establishment is happy is classify them as outsiders and not bothered with the propaganda by the so called historians. Another example of divided history is Maharaja Gulab Singh Dogra. He is seen as an icon in Jammu who never did anything wrong but in Kashmir his rule is also deemed as 'oppressive'. The reality as most of the time is somewhere in the middle.

Reference
Bal, Brigadier Gurbachan Singh, Jarnail Zorawar Singh (in Punjabi). Patiala 1978
Griffin, Lepel & C.F. Massy, Chiefs and Families of Note in the Punjab. Lahore, 1890
Gupta, Hari Ram, History of Sikhs, the Sikh Lion of Lahore, Maharaja Ranjit Singh 1799-1839. Delhi, 1991
Hugel, Baron Charles, Travels in Kashmir and the Panjab. London, 1845
Kalam, Jia Lal, A History of Kashmiri Pandits. Srinagar, 1955
Lal, Mohan, Travels in the Panjab and Afghanistan and Turkistan to Balkh, Bokhara and Herat and a visit to Great Britain. London 1846
Sharma, D.C., Kashmir under the Sikhs. Delhi, 1983
Singh, Harbans, Encyclopaedia of Sikhism. Patiala, 1992-99
Vigne, G.T., Travels in Kashmir, Ladakh and Iskardu. London, 1842
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by banrjeer »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
banrjeer wrote:
Tarek Fatah and Tahir Gora are vehemently pro-Modi. No need for Wapasi there. They are not the only ones. The tide will grow.
We thought so too at times of mujiburrahman & mukti bahini too, same bangladeshis at time of Vajpayee returned mutilated bodies of BSF men. Same bangladeshis are now exodusing Hindus from Bangladesh
BD turned to India for survival not out of any great love. Theres also a bit of an effort to downplay the role of the Indian forces in 1971. They cleansed Bengali hindus etc...

With Tarek Fatah et al. we see something different. A genuine horror of what Pak is and a hope that India will rise up and dismember the failed state forever. They are impatient. They are also inherently better at fighting the perception battle that India likes to wring their hands on.

They openly talk about Pakistan's genocide and ethnic cleansing and demographic alteration whereas Indian diplomats are still stuck parroting "cross-border terrorism" a minor offense that could arguably classified as insurgency.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Anujan »

IndraD wrote:@khamenei_ir https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir/status/ ... 9894953984
We’re concerned about Muslims’ situation in #Kashmir. We have good relations with India, but we expect the Indian government to adopt a just policy towards the noble people of Kashmir and prevent the oppression & bullying of Muslims in this region.
:shock:
Iran's supreme leader has issued many hostile statements about India vis-a-vis JK
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by disha »

KLNMurthy wrote: Common factor in Syria and Crimea was underestimation of Russia's capabilities and will.
That is to say, bad intelligence and analysis. ...
I see your point. My point is that the intelligence was good but the analysis was flawed because the analcysts and their masters were arrogant. Extremely arrogant. 'I came, I saw and he died' is the crux of the colonial arrogance.

A student of history who has read couple of books on Crimean war and the autobiography of Leo Tolstoy would immediately narrow down that Crimea was un-winnable. Obama and his clintonite acolytes brought the world to the brink of WWIII.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by UlanBatori »

See? Couldn't have written it better if I had done it myself!
The tragedy of POK and GB is that the original and rightful inhabitants were Sikh and Hindu: the men were murdered; the women and children driven into slavery and worse torture. Many jumped into the freezing Jhelum in winter rather than face this fate. The others were paraded and sold in the slave markets of Peshawar and Quetta. So there are few left to return. The Shia Muslism were themselves brutalized by Pakistan Genera Musharraf, delegating none other than Osama Bin laden. The place is now occupied only by terrorists and Pak Army. A free-fire zone for the Indian Army and IAF, no fear of hitting "innocent" civilians. All murderers and rapists there.
Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/70688492.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
Last edited by UlanBatori on 22 Aug 2019 01:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by hgupta »

disha wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: Common factor in Syria and Crimea was underestimation of Russia's capabilities and will.
That is to say, bad intelligence and analysis. ...
I see your point. My point is that the intelligence was good but the analysis was flawed because the analcysts and their masters were arrogant. Extremely arrogant. 'I came, I saw and he died' is the crux of the colonial arrogance.

A student of history who has read couple of books on Crimean war and the autobiography of Leo Tolstoy would immediately narrow down that Crimea was un-winnable. Obama and his clintonite acolytes brought the world to the brink of WWIII.
That's a bit of stretch. It was Putin that nearly brought the world to the brink of WWIII. Putin's actions scared the other eastern European countries so much that they were calling for the US to make a show of force. How else would you explain the cheering by the Polish people and the Baltic people when the US brigades moved through Poland and Baltic state as a show of force to the Russians? Like it or not, Poland and the Baltic states do not want Russian sphere of influence to get back to its former size and glory.

There's an old Polish joke. A Polish man found a fortune lamp. When he rubbed it, a genie came out and said he would grant three wishes. The Polish guy said, "I wish the Mongols would come and invade Poland and then leave." Puzzled but having no choice, the genie granted the wish and sure enough hordes of Mongols came and marauded and ravaged the Polish countryside and then left. The genie saw the Polish guy grinning and chuckling. The genie asked the Polish guy what his next wish was. The Polish guy said I want the same thing again. Ever more confused, the genie granted the wish. Again the Mongol hordes reappeared and did what they were renowned for and then left. The Polish guy was laughing and smiling. The genie asked him what his last wish was. The Polish guy said the same wish over. Sure enough, the Mongols reappeared and left, leaving Poland in a state of ruin. Unable to withhold himself, the genie asked the Polish guy if he hated Poland. The Polish guy said, "No I love my country Poland very much. It is very dear." "Then why would you make such wishes?" cried the genie. Cackling, the Polish guy answered, "Because the Mongols have to cross Russia six times!"

Eastern European countries have no love for Russia and they despise and distrust Putin very much.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by UlanBatori »

Hundi trying to be their sneaky slithering selves
Editorials are vanishing from dozens of Kashmir dailies, an indication of the pulls and pressures the media face after the Centre’s decision to revoke Jammu & Kashmir’s special status on August 5.
Prominent dailies such as Greater Kashmir and Kashmir Observer resumed publications from August 17, after an unusual six-day holiday on the occasion of Id, but without the editorials.
Though Greater Kashmir resumed editorial space on Wednesday, dailies such as the Kashmir Age are still skipping editorial pieces.
Balance of fears. Laughter of Democracy. Let them report NEWS for a change.
Many smaller dailies have stopped writing editorials, and instead publish syndicated columns {like the MSM such as The HUNDI? Shame on u!}.

However, there are a few newspapers such as the Rising Kashmir and the Brighter Kashmir, which have not ceased writing the editorials.

“It is like walking the razor’s edge to balance your editorial position. Many newspapers have decided not to publish editorials fearing the axe will fall on them in case of any imbalance. We have decided not to express our opinion,” said Farooq Wani, the editor of Brighter Kashmir.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by UlanBatori »

Maybe OT, maybe not..
CBI books fresh case against NDTV, Roys for allegedly violating FDI rules
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

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NDTV: Scrapping J&K's Special Status Is India's Internal Matter: Bangladesh
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by UlanBatori »

PM Modi Brings Up Independence Day Clash In Phone Chat With UK's Boris Johnson

India News | Edited by Jimmy Jacob | Wednesday August 21, 2019

PM Modi Brings Up Independence Day Clash In Phone Chat With UK's Boris Johnson

Days after clashes erupted outside the High Commission of India in London during the Independence Day celebrations, Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Tuesday raised the issue with his British counterpart - Boris Johnson - in a telephonic conversation.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by krithivas »

Terminology fix - It was not a "clash" - It was organized violence perpetrated against Indians celebrating I-day. Piglets had assembled with the explicit purpose of assaulting Indians.
UlanBatori wrote:PM Modi Brings Up Independence Day Clash In Phone Chat With UK's Boris Johnson

India News | Edited by Jimmy Jacob | Wednesday August 21, 2019

PM Modi Brings Up Independence Day Clash In Phone Chat With UK's Boris Johnson

Days after clashes erupted outside the High Commission of India in London during the Independence Day celebrations, Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Tuesday raised the issue with his British counterpart - Boris Johnson - in a telephonic conversation.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Roop »

pankajs wrote: The real reason why this is "outrageous" and "shocking" for the honorary baki is not because of what was said but becuase that it was said so openly, recorded and put out on to the interweb to live for ever reminding the Indians of what the bakis really are at all levels.

Till date this honorary baki and other like her used to lull the gubile but sincerely peaceful Indians into sleep with rhetoric like "bakis are just like us", "want peace", etc and whitewash their many crimes.

Now with this video it will no longer possible to whitewash the baki crimes. These are not even jihadis nor ordinary folks talking amongst themselves at a chai adda. These are THREE former highly educated former diplomats who are talking of "armed resistance" with one of the top baki anchor on live TV! It further proves that every baki is a jihadi. The honorary baki is frustrated that the old rhetoric will no longer work with the internet generations with this video.
Exactly! This embarrassment/humiliation for Pakis is causing corresponding embarrassment/humiliation for their agents/proxies in India -- Saggy / Needy / Barky and now Shiny. It is so infuriating that all these years the Lutyens media were batting for Kaangress (and Kaangress were batting for Pakistan) and they seemed to get away with it. Not any more!!
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by vijayk »

^^ Look at suhasini haidar. Her husband's family, good friends of VP Hamid Ansari(we know all about this scumbag who gave up Raa agents to Iran) are also close to several Pakis and Paki diplomats. It is not like they dont know Akis and paki attitude. It is just that she doesn't want them to be so open because I am sure she has been with these scums many times.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Roop »

hgupta wrote: That's a bit of stretch.
"A bit of a stretch"? Hmmm... okay.
It was Putin that nearly brought the world to the brink of WWIII. Putin's actions scared the other eastern European countries so much that they were calling for the US to make a show of force.
Absolute rubbish! It was the recklessness of the American neo-cons that brought the world to the brink of WW3. Again and again! That incident in the 1999 Yugo war where the American NATO commander ordered the British Brigadier to attack Russian forces on the airstrip in (I forget the name of the place). Fortunately, the Brit refused. The Georgian invasion of Russia in 2008. The violent and illegal overthrow of the Ukranian govt. in 2014. The support of ISIS and the use of chemical weapons in Syria, and the urging of two American presidents (Obama and Trump) to attack Russian forces in Syria. And the list goes on! In all these cases the neocons (typified by that whack-job John McCain) had a permanent hard-on for war.
There's an old Polish joke...
Very droll! Fortunately for everyone concerned, govts don't make their foreign policy based on campfire stories, old wives' tales and Comedy Central sketches.
Eastern European countries have no love for Russia and they despise and distrust Putin very much.
So what? Why should anyone give a damn what Poland and Russia think of each other? Should we check with Mexico, Panama, Cuba or Venezuela what they think about the US before formulating an opinion on our US policy?
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by yensoy »

UlanBatori wrote:NDTV: Scrapping J&K's Special Status Is India's Internal Matter: Bangladesh
So the successor state of the Pakistan which was the respondent to the UN dispute has given away its claims to India. Yes, Bangladesh was the majority of the population of undivided Pakistan in 1971. Time we pulled the matter out of UN. :rotfl:
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by Vips »

Pakistan divided over raising Kashmir at International Court of Justice.

After Pakistan Prime Minister Imran Khan decided to raise the Kashmir issue at the International Court of Justice (ICJ), the Law Ministry is yet to frame its views on the move.

On Tuesday, Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi had said Pakistan had decided to move the ICJ on Kashmir issue and the Law Ministry would share the details soon. On Wednesday, the Ministry said no decision had been taken.

The Express Tribune, a Pakistan English daily, has reported that opinion over the issue was divided.

A senior Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) leader told The Express Tribune that senior party leaders were in touch with Ben Emerson, a London-based lawyer, who advised Pakistan to approach the ICJ on Kashmir issue.(Millions of $ to be made in fees and other kickbacks) :mrgreen:

Even the international law experts in Pakistan have expressed astonishment over the government's decision. The opinion is said to be divided due to the jurisdictional issue. According to international law expert Taimur Malik, the matter can be referred to the ICJ but its opinion is only advisory in nature and not binding to the parties concerned. But it could help Pakistan make the Kashmir issue 'international', he added.

Malik also said it would be difficult to put India in the dock due to various provisions of the international law as India reserves the right on bilateral issues at the ICJ.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by UlanBatori »

yensoy wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:NDTV: Scrapping J&K's Special Status Is India's Internal Matter: Bangladesh
So the successor state of the Pakistan which was the respondent to the UN dispute has given away its claims to India. Yes, Bangladesh was the majority of the population of undivided Pakistan in 1971. Time we pulled the matter out of UN. :rotfl:
This is a super observation, congratulations! How do we propagate this? Seriously!
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by UlanBatori »

NEW DELHI: BJP has added over 23,000 new members in the Kashmir Valley during a drive that ended on Tuesday. The party plans to engage in several confidence-building measures in the coming weeks to increase support in the region, which has been under curfew since revocation of special status to the state.
Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/70779686.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
BJP vice-president Avinash Rai Khanna, election in-charge of J&K, said BJP gained 3,50,174 new members in the state through online enrollment. Offline enrollment in areas where mobile connectivity is weak is expected to push the overall figure beyond 7 lakh. A person interested in becoming a BJP member has to give a missed call to a dedicated toll-free number. Mobile and landline services have been on the blink in the Valley since August 5.

The figure will exceed the target of increasing membership in each state by at least 20%. The total BJP membership in J&K before the Lok Sabha elections was 5,20,959. The Valley has an estimated population of around 80 lakh and BJP claims to have had a membership of around one lakh before the membership drive was launched. “The figure of 23,000 is for Baramullah, Srinagar and Anantnag district,” Khanna said. This is a 25% increase in membership in the Valley. Once the security restrictions are eased, BJP hopes to gather support in o ..
INTOLERABLE!!! :(( :((

Kashmir Valley is known for saffron cultivation. Now also saffron flags? :mrgreen:
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by UlanBatori »

We begin to see the light behind PeeAllSee's discomfort about 370:
New Delhi: China not only supported Pakistan on the Kashmir issue at last Friday's closed-door informal session of the UN Security Council, but also raked up the status of Aksai Chin, a territory in Ladakh illegally occupied by Beijing, ET has learnt.

The Chinese Permanent Representative in the UN claimed that the government's decision to abrogate Article 370 challenged China's sovereign interests and violated bilateral agreements on maintaining peace and stability in the border area, sources told ET.

“What should be pointed out is that India’s action has also challenged the Chinese sovereign interests and violated bilateral agreements on maintaining peace and stability in the border area and, on that, China is also very much seriously concerned,” the senior Chinese diplomat is believed to have said, in an indirect reference to the status of Ladakh. “And, we wish to emphasize that such unilateral practice by India is not valid in relation to China and will not change China’s exercise of sovereignty and effective administrative jurisdiction over the territory.”

Beijing decided to raise the issue at the UN despite Foreign Minister S Jaishankar allaying fears that re-designating Ladakh as a Union Territory would not impact the Line of Actual Control (LAC) and that Delhi was not making any additional territorial claims with regard to China.

During the bilateral foreign minister-level meetin ..
Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/70747053.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst ..

So PeeAllSee seems very worried that Aksai Chin will become unsustainable if PORK-GB collapses. And they see a realistic chance of that happening, hence the Closed Door Mtg. They were basically :(( :(( that Aksai Chin was shaking.
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Re: J&K Union Territory-2019

Post by UlanBatori »

Another day over. Situation Naarmal. Now MSM totally out of stuff to report.
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