VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Dileep
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Dileep » 24 Aug 2019 21:20

My comment on 'screwdrivergiri' is based on first hand experience for almost three decades. The DPSUs didn't do what we routinely do. What to do onlee!!

Hiring experienced people doesn't work as well. When you do screwdrivergiri, EVERYONE involved gets immersed in the stuff, and a lot of collective learning happens. It never happens with just one guy getting to a new place. Mostly the 'guy' would be a senior guy who 1) hadn't picked up a screwdriver in the past decade or so and 2)the screwdriver he used to use were generations older technology than the one being used now. Never worked for us. We had to figure out things on our own.

Buying desi companies will not work, since all of them are home grown steeped in jugad soil. I recently visited a few (posted the experience in another thread). All these "we designed this gizmo for aircraft and it is already flying" means NOTHING. They rigged up something that eventually passed the HALT and HASS requirements. That's all. At one place, the 'main man' simply picked up with his bare hands a board that was supposed to fly in one of the programme well known here at BRF. No ESD discipline. People sit and hand solder as they please, like a radio repair shop.

Buying foren companies may work, if they transfer production here in Desh, using desi engineers and operators. Immersing large number of people in the actual process is the only sensible way to transfer 'good known methods'.

We had been doing this for a very long time. Still, even now, we always face learning curve when a new thing comes around. We always see other people face learning curve when they try to do things that we do routinely. That is a fact of life.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Dileep » 24 Aug 2019 21:33

And yeah.. It works only if it goes to 'hungry people' who want to climb up on top of it, and reach out further. Obviously, DPSUs don't.

People often talk about 'crown jewels', 'secret sauce' etc. But please realize that it takes much more than 'jewels' to make a crown, and 'sauce' to make a dish of food. How many of us can make the crown if the jewels were magically given to us? If we had been making the metalwork of the crown, and know mostly how to put it together, you can possibly make a useable crown with whatever stone you can get, right?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Suresh S » 24 Aug 2019 21:53

Dillep,s insight is very good. My own feeling is and has been for sometime that Rafale is coming and it is coming in massive numbers . should we celebrate this . Neither yes nor no. Life is tough and not ideal. Our enemies are not going to wait for us so that our MIC is mature and than attack. They are ready to attack now. And therefore rafale makes a lot of sense. In the meantime our own LCA and AMCA are proceeding by some accounts at good speed. My own guess upto 150-200 of these beauties are on their way including a good number for the navy.Our enemies will think twice before initiating an attack.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karthik S » 24 Aug 2019 21:56

+1 suresh.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby darshan » 24 Aug 2019 22:16

What's the timeframe from the arrival of new platform to be used in critical missions?
How many hours to get to the level of familiarization to put in the offensive packages?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 25 Aug 2019 03:13

+1 Suresh sir

It is indeed needed that we have a good number of squadrons of these top line aircrafts backed by DRDO Netra and Phalcon AWACS. Rafale is an excellent piece of technology and it will keep us ahead in the technology game. IAF is not wrong if they have penchant for possessing the best in their backyards.

This also gives us a breather to develop LCA MWF and AMCA further on.

In his notes from Air International 24 Page article on Rafale, Rakesh perhaps skipped mentioning Rafale F5 where it is envisaged that it will possess GaN based Multi Functional AESA Arrays (MFA) used for detection, jamming and communication functions.

Even in AMCA we aspire for these goals. Initial variants of AMCA can share this tech from Dassault while we perfect our own tech and install in later blocks of AMCA. We must give IAF tools to win decisively and be able to project power during peace time. Rafale and S-400 are both right steps in this direction.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Dileep » 25 Aug 2019 06:59

What I can safely say is that Rafale's radar ain't 'your grandad's radar'. The mighty Bars have brutal power, but that pretty much it. This one can do a lot more.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sandrokottos » 25 Aug 2019 10:56

Cutting The Chaff: Rafale And What Ails Defence Procurement In India



Interesting statements by this guy, I wonder if any truth to it (like Su-30MKI is a dud). Hopefully, those more knowledgeable can answer.

If moderators feel it is unsubstantiated or inflammatory, please go ahead and remove.

Indranil
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Indranil » 25 Aug 2019 11:15

^^^ Some people know it all.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sandrokottos » 25 Aug 2019 11:21

Indranil wrote:^^^ Some people know it all.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Thats what I thought. Regardless, someone might find it interesting so posted.

VikramA
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby VikramA » 25 Aug 2019 11:24

^^^^ can someone explain to me how someone who :
1> did not serve in any capacity in any airforce in the world, specially those which have russian aircraft,
2> has no experience in aeroscape sector,
3> probably could not tell the difference between AESA and PESA.
3> is not even a dedicated defence repoter let alone a researcher in a defense think tank( even a 3rd grade one).

is invited to speak on such matters when retired airforce chiefs, test pilots and pilots who served in TAC are not.

Karan M
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 25 Aug 2019 11:46

Re: his claims Su-30 is a dud etc, he is basing all this off conversations or whatever he had several years back and is milking it away.

Net:
RWR issues - these were due to masking and flame damage. Masking as in when the canards moved, they obscured incoming radar signals and when the afterburners were used they destroyed the delicate antennae.

This was fixed by moving the 2/4 channel RWR to a 6 channel/antenna one. This project was implemented a while back. The antennae were relocated - two to the wing, two to the rudders, two in the sting, which also received new radomes to handle the afterburner heat.

Interestingly, an even better system, a digital DR118 is now in development and headed for flight trials. This will offer much better capability than the current R118 and allow the designers to optimize for specific signals/block undesirable ones etc to a much higher degree.

Display Blanking - this was an issue which barely affected a few of the aircraft, resolved by new software upgrades released by the Russians and implemented.

SPJ-RWR issue. This is a more complex one. Basically, SPJs/Radars have to ensure they dont block out each other, and also have to pick up cues from the RWR. We shifted to a Russian system to ensure Radar, SPJ compatability but RWR - SPJ compatibility is not optimal. All this means is that the SPJ can be operated on auto mode wherein its own ESM decides what modes it deploys.
Solution - an Indian HBJ is in development, should be headed for trials anytime soon if it isn't already flying. The positive side is that the D-29 project on the MiG-29 is headed for success. This basically means we are crossing the hump when it comes to fighter EW, and this system would basically be a podded variant.

In short, this gentlemans comments are not really that factual.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sandrokottos » 25 Aug 2019 12:23

Karan M wrote:Re: his claims Su-30 is a dud etc....

Very insightful post, thanks for all the info. With your permission, may I post this on the comments section for the youtube video

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby pankajs » 25 Aug 2019 19:53

cross post
--
FWIW ...

https://twitter.com/bababanaras/status/ ... 4026041344
अर्ध-सन्यासी (Half Hermit) @bababanaras

Guys want to share one more progress about arms deal with France. Both governments are principally agreed and we are about to buy 114 more Rafael jets to fulfill requirements of our airforce. Few technical points are there but we r hoping the same will be solve by end of 2019.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby VikramA » 25 Aug 2019 19:59

we might be waiting to announce it after a FTA with U.S ,otherwise trump might throw a hissy fit again

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby LakshmanPST » 25 Aug 2019 20:08

I'm not really sure to what level we can trust Baba's updates...
From my observation till date, his tweets are mostly mainstream news & popular rumours...
Anyways, let's hope for the best...

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 25 Aug 2019 23:41

Sandrokottos wrote:
Karan M wrote:Re: his claims Su-30 is a dud etc....

Very insightful post, thanks for all the info. With your permission, may I post this on the comments section for the youtube video


You are welcome to! Thanks.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Aug 2019 05:35

Indian-standard Rafale jet to be ready by September 2021
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 247199.ece

Dinakar Peri, 25 August 2019

The first batch of Rafale fighter jets will be handed over to India in September in France but the first batch of jets will arrive in India by end of April 2020. During that time the IAF pilots will undergo advanced training on the Indian jets in France, Defence sources said. “The first batch is scheduled to be handed over in September. From then to April 2020 three batches of eight IAF pilots along with engineers and technicians will undergo advanced training on the Indian jets in France, a senior source said. “The Indian-standard Rafale with all India Specific Enhancements (ISE) will be operationally ready latest by September 2021.” So far three IAF pilots and two technical officers trained on the French Air Force Rafales as per the terms of the contract.

The first Rafale for India has made its maiden flight on October 30, 2018 in France and is designated RB008. RB stands for Air Marshal RKS Bhadauria who as then Deputy Chief of IAF led the Indian negotiation team and had a major role in the contract negotiations. This is an instrumented aircraft flown by test pilots and all 13 ISE will be incorporated, tested and certified on this. The RB008 will be the last to be delivered to the IAF, 67 months after the signing of the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) in April 2022. In September 2016, India and France signed a €7.87-billion IGA for 36 Rafale multi-role fighter jets in fly-away condition following the surprise announcement by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in April 2015 citing “critical operational necessity” of the IAF.

As per the IGA, deliveries begin 36 months from signing of the contract and will be completed in 67 months. The government has consistently maintained that the deal was done to ensure quick delivery of the fighter aircraft to the IAF which is facing a drop in squadron strength. Some of the ISE are incorporated in the aircraft during manufacturing. The remaining will be incorporated in 2021 over three months, the source said adding, “This includes both software and hardware upgrades.” As reported by The Hindu earlier, the ISE “not present in the Rafale aircraft being operated by other countries” and pertain to radar enhancements, helmet-mounted display, ability to start and operate from high-altitude airfields, advanced infrared search and track sensor, a potent electronic jammer pod and avionics.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 26 Aug 2019 10:07

Rakesh wrote:Indian-standard Rafale jet to be ready by September 2021
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 247199.ece

Dinakar Peri, 25 August 2019

As per the IGA, deliveries begin 36 months from signing of the contract and will be completed in 67 months. The government has consistently maintained that the deal was done to ensure quick delivery of the fighter aircraft to the IAF which is facing a drop in squadron strength. Some of the ISE are incorporated in the aircraft during manufacturing. The remaining will be incorporated in 2021 over three months, the source said adding, “This includes both software and hardware upgrades.” As reported by The Hindu earlier, the ISE “not present in the Rafale aircraft being operated by other countries” and pertain to radar enhancements, helmet-mounted display, ability to start and operate from high-altitude airfields, advanced infrared search and track sensor, a potent electronic jammer pod and avionics.


Any idea what is the specific enhancement we have requested in IRST of Rafale ?

Also, jammer pod is news to me, Rafale has fully internal comprehensive EW system.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nachiket » 28 Aug 2019 05:47

Sumeet wrote:Any idea what is the specific enhancement we have requested in IRST of Rafale ?

Also, jammer pod is news to me, Rafale has fully internal comprehensive EW system.

IRST would be whatever is the latest version of the Optronique Secteur Frontal (OSF).

Jamming Pod is confusing to me as well. Should not be needed because of the SPECTRA EW system. Unless we are not getting the SPECTRA for some reason, which would be disappointing.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cybaru » 28 Aug 2019 09:08

Spectra EW and Jamming pod are probably two separate units hopefully.

Spectra may be used to manage radar emission and classifications locally(on a per plane basis). It may comprise of minimal radar cancellation tech, to help the aircraft fare better when being painted by another aircraft, or if a radar-guided/enabled missile has a lock on it.

Don't know how it will manage that if there aren't receive/transmit elements on the rear of the plane and if the missile is in a tail chase. Perhaps such a cloaking might only work when a missile is locked on in a head-on mode. In that case, the tx/rx units in the radar can isolate and send "out of phase" radar responses back and break the lock.

It might improve survivability in some aspects, but it may not be the stealth Klingon shield they are making it out to be.

Other is probably is wide area jammer meant for the whole strike group, if they have such a thing or they might be integrating one of the Israeli pods we use.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 29 Aug 2019 02:11

ITI Nagpur students to learn to assemble Rafale jets
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 859237.cms

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 29 Aug 2019 03:54

Cybaru wrote:Spectra EW and Jamming pod are probably two separate units hopefully.

Spectra may be used to manage radar emission and classifications locally(on a per plane basis). It may comprise of minimal radar cancellation tech, to help the aircraft fare better when being painted by another aircraft, or if a radar-guided/enabled missile has a lock on it.

Don't know how it will manage that if there aren't receive/transmit elements on the rear of the plane and if the missile is in a tail chase. Perhaps such a cloaking might only work when a missile is locked on in a head-on mode. In that case, the tx/rx units in the radar can isolate and send "out of phase" radar responses back and break the lock.

It might improve survivability in some aspects, but it may not be the stealth Klingon shield they are making it out to be.

Other is probably is wide area jammer meant for the whole strike group, if they have such a thing or they might be integrating one of the Israeli pods we use.



As far as I know we don't use escort jamming pod from Israel today. Neither Sky Shield from Rafael nor ELL-8251 from Elta. But I fear use of Israeli system may run into radar compatibility issues as happened in MKI case.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 29 Aug 2019 03:56

nachiket wrote:
Sumeet wrote:Any idea what is the specific enhancement we have requested in IRST of Rafale ?

Also, jammer pod is news to me, Rafale has fully internal comprehensive EW system.

IRST would be whatever is the latest version of the Optronique Secteur Frontal (OSF).

Jamming Pod is confusing to me as well. Should not be needed because of the SPECTRA EW system. Unless we are not getting the SPECTRA for some reason, which would be disappointing.


I really highly doubt that we won't be getting SPECTRA EW system. Spectra is specifically built to cater to Rafale aircraft hence any other solution can be only add on, not essential.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Aug 2019 04:27

IRST was always mentioned as weak point of Rafale while Eurofighter's PIRATE IRST was said to be Latest. Towed decoy was also exclusive on Ef2k, but I hear Our Rafale would have same towed decoy, so question remains which IRST has been installed on Rafale?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby manjgu » 29 Aug 2019 13:23

i had a v interesting meeting with a IAF officer who was also awarded for recent Balakot strikes at a family wedding function. he didnt give much away on balakot except saying thank u thank u. he said he didnt fo to Bkot but was one of the planners. On rafale he said, for pilots converting from M2000 , its not such a big learning curve . and as our conversation got going, he got a call from Gwalior about some issue with a M2000 and our talk ended adruptly.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Aug 2019 13:44

manjgu wrote:i had a v interesting meeting with a IAF officer who was also awarded for recent Balakot strikes at a family wedding function. he didnt give much away on balakot except saying thank u thank u. he said he didnt fo to Bkot but was one of the planners. On rafale he said, for pilots converting from M2000 , its not such a big learning curve . and as our conversation got going, he got a call from Gwalior about some issue with a M2000 and our talk ended adruptly.


He could have confirmed about the PAF F16 ingress intentions, LGB launched, H-4 Bombs, type of F16 which went down on 27 Feb 19

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby manjgu » 29 Aug 2019 16:23

actually i did want to hear from him on these issues...but given the wedding ceremony and guests miling all around , was not easy.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby naird » 29 Aug 2019 18:41



3 min vid HD quality - Walkaround of a fully loaded Rafale ! Absolute impeccable build and finishing ! Even weapons have gorgeous finish !

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 30 Aug 2019 00:40

A week after Modi Macron meet India France to hold strategic talks on defence

PARIS: Within a week of the Modi-Macron summit, India and France will hold a strategic dialogue to talk acquisition and development of defence equipment. NSA Ajit Doval will host his counterpart Emmanuel Bonne in New Delhi on Thursday to take forward the decisions taken at the August 22 summit.

According to officials, on the table for the high-level discussion would be the next order for fighter aircraft, among other defence equipment.


France is keen to pick up another order of Rafale fighter jets after the first 36 are ready to be delivered. These would be on international bidding. The US also wants to hawk its F-21 while Sweden is hoping to sell its Gripen.

Defence minister Rajnath Singh will be here in September for the hand over of first Rafale. Indian pilots will be trained in France so it before the jet makes its way to India.

Of much greater significance and far more ambitious is a new India-France project to co-develop and co-build a next generation jet engine for use by India. The lead French defence company in the reckoning here is Safran.There is little clarity on how this will be developed in India including agencies and companies to be involved. What is clear is that the project has been nicknamed INFRA. Modi may have been hinting at this when he said after his meeting with Macron..

Doval has been the point-person in the Modi government to lead the discussion on defence acquisitions. The government's decision to set up the chief of defence staff, officials say will go a long way to easing friction between the services both on inter-operability as well as streamlining acquisition...

France is keen to add more Scorpene submarines to India’s inventory. Government officials here suggested these could be part of India's P-75 line of submarines which have been an on-again-off-again project for years.
This time however the French are keen to make them in India --- the Indian government is keen to involve both public and private sector shipyards for these.

France is also keen to sell about 18 Caracal helicopters for the Indian Coast Guard as well as almost 100 heavy “Panther” helicopters for the Indian Navy.


Other news outlets are also reporting this news, so it is pretty much confirmed that discussions are on-going for additional batch of Rafale jets.

NSA level meet today- France keen to sell second batch of 36 Rafales

Zee news link

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Aug 2019 00:45

3 more Scorpenes + 36 to 50 Rafales would be really nice.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vivek K » 30 Aug 2019 01:26

naird wrote:3 min vid HD quality - Walk around of a fully loaded Rafale! Absolute impeccable build and finishing ! Even weapons have gorgeous finish !

Yeah - it is imported and we all love imported toys!!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cybaru » 30 Aug 2019 01:33

Rakesh wrote:3 more Scorpenes + 36 to 50 Rafales would be really nice.


Amen! IMO, all the time we talk about diesel subs - we generally talk of 10. This six thingy is new for scorpene, should have always been 10 to replace the Kilos and the foxtrots.

We should just go with Nuke boats after 9-10 diesel subs. No point adding diesel, too short legs and not enough armament. P75I should become N75 and add 6 hunter-killer class in the 4-5K size. The french likely won't part with Barracuda, probably makes more sense to develop something in that size for ruskies.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vips » 30 Aug 2019 03:32

+ 72 X 72
It would be a big waste to again go for a diesel electric submarine under P75 I which will offer only a notional incremental value over the Scorpenes. It would be best to take up the French offer for 3 additonal scorpenes to take advantage of the expertise and associated supply chain at Mazgaon Dock.
We should go for Nuclear submarines and have the French duel with the Russians to offer their best to bag that deal(we will need huge help for the 150 MW class reactor to power the N boats).

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 30 Aug 2019 04:54

Guys lets take Submarine talk to appropriate thread and leave this for Rafale discussions.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cybaru » 30 Aug 2019 05:36

Sorry about that! No more..

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nash » 04 Sep 2019 20:50

Anil Ambani’s Reliance Naval facing cash crunch amid debt revamp

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... n=ETTWMain

The disclosure in the company’s annual report comes just ahead of a court hearing whether to put the debt-laden company under insolvency proceedings, potentially dealing another blow to the former billionaire’s shrinking empire.



This can be the beginning of that rumor.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 05 Sep 2019 04:25

First ever pics of an IAF Rafale, RB001, in IAF colors. What a beauty! I just wish the old tradition of squadron markings comes back into IAF practice.

Pics credit: Cedric Guerre. Posted on FB

Image

Image

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 05 Sep 2019 07:25

Does anyone know for sure how many rafales the Egyptians are getting. It seems they have two orders of 36 each plus mig 35s. How are they affording this...

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby abhik » 05 Sep 2019 07:59

As per wiki they have 24 on order, reportedly paid for bt the Saudis.


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