Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 02 Sep 2019 20:35

chola wrote:Imagine these in the IN!

I am already imagining the maintenance nightmare this will end up as. Please no more used aircraft carriers.

After Vikrant (ex-Hercules), Viraat (ex-Hermes) and Vikramaditya (ex-Gorshkov)....please no more.

Just go with new build (Make in India) vessels.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20051
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 02 Sep 2019 21:59

These two dinosaurs will beggar the entire defence budget! Don't forget the quote from the Brahmos CEO about Chinese carriers being sitting ducks for Brahmos (and hyper Brahmos). Our carriers too will br vulnerable to supersonic and ballistic missiles launched in salvoes. It's why we must leverage all our flat tops including amphibs to be able to operate the naval strike aircraft in hand and possible NLCA. More flat tops that can operate any typd oc fixed and rotary wing type in service will givd us a synergy and increased % of operational capability when flat tops are undergoing dockyard refits and repairs.

We are in a unique geograpgical position with unsinkable A&N and Lakshadweep islands apart from the dagger-like S.Indian peninsula thrusting at the centre of the IOR. We also havd defence agreements with Mauritius, the Seychelles, Oman, Indonesia and reportedly planning to build port for Burma too. These give us logistic terra firma in the IOR apart from our own territories. The American idea of " lend- lease" of old CVs, which will come with huge costs and several intrusive strings attached, will be nothing more than an arm of the USN tasked to fight China, manned and paid for by India! Building a sister ship of IAC-1 is what is possible and affordable, especially if we redesign ghe ddck anc hsngars of the planned 4 amphibs.We could instead build 3 multi-purpose amphibs and another Vikrant class CV.

The nightmare of operating 3 differeng types of CVs will be akin to a Stephen King horror movie!

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3306
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby kit » 02 Sep 2019 23:17

Those are the best examples for White elephants !!

chola wrote:IN Chief says we need carriers in alarming tone.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/china-planning-10-aircraft-carriers-we-need-at-least-3-navy-chief/amp_articleshow/70864740.cms
NEW DELHI: Raising an alarm over the ongoing expansion of the Chinese Navy that will rapidly add warships to its fleet in the next decade, navy chief Admiral Karambir Singh said India requires at least three aircraft carriers to meet operational needs in the region.


New Lend-Lease scheme from the US:
https://intpolicydigest.org/2019/08/14/lend-lease-and-chinese-containment/amp/

To bridge the gap between the time India is able to bring 3 modern aircraft carriers online, the U.S. could use a new Lend-Lease Act to give either the USS Kitty Hawk and/or the USS John F. Kennedy to the Indian Navy. If a Tarawa-class amphibious escort carrier is available, it also should be considered as a part of any Lend-Lease ship transfer.

Imagine these in the IN!

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3726
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Sep 2019 02:40

Rakesh wrote:
chola wrote:Imagine these in the IN!

I am already imagining the maintenance nightmare this will end up as. Please no more used aircraft carriers.

After Vikrant (ex-Hercules), Viraat (ex-Hermes) and Vikramaditya (ex-Gorshkov)....please no more.

Just go with new build (Make in India) vessels.

But I thought only russkis provide rust buckets, no? What news of the Jalashwa? Is it performing up to expectations?

But this idea is nothing new and has come about before. However the tea leaves say the same thing.... The naval 57 birds will likely go to the US, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea.

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby souravB » 03 Sep 2019 06:42

Cain Marko wrote:--snip--
The naval 57 birds will likely go to the US, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea.

only if those are the F35Cs. S-400 or not. I'd rather we go full hog than start operating 18s from 2030s. If required, sweeten the deal with some 40 odd 35Bs for the non-existing LHDs.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5037
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karthik S » 03 Sep 2019 11:59

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I am already imagining the maintenance nightmare this will end up as. Please no more used aircraft carriers.

After Vikrant (ex-Hercules), Viraat (ex-Hermes) and Vikramaditya (ex-Gorshkov)....please no more.

Just go with new build (Make in India) vessels.

But I thought only russkis provide rust buckets, no? What news of the Jalashwa? Is it performing up to expectations?

But this idea is nothing new and has come about before. However the tea leaves say the same thing.... The naval 57 birds will likely go to the US, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea.


Oh ya, who'll provide guarantee that there won't any type of sanctions in the future??

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8099
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Pratyush » 03 Sep 2019 12:27

Regarding the Chinese building 10 aircraft carrier.

Why not take the chini approach to area denial. Mount a manuvering RV with a seeker on a Agni 4 and be done with it.

Or it is not possible to build a manuvering RV with a seeker?

Let the Chinese worry about dealing with it.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5405
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby vishvak » 03 Sep 2019 12:49

Or claim that Vietnam is Quasi Indian state per some legit diplomatic treaty (like how Hans talk about Tibet), then somehow some rebel-esque movement on coasts with advanced weapons .. and you know where it's going.. some arbitrary day some arbitrary weapons hit some subs like knives in butter..

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3726
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Sep 2019 19:54

Karthik S wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:But I thought only russkis provide rust buckets, no? What news of the Jalashwa? Is it performing up to expectations?

But this idea is nothing new and has come about before. However the tea leaves say the same thing.... The naval 57 birds will likely go to the US, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea.


Oh ya, who'll provide guarantee that there won't any type of sanctions in the future??


Fair enough. But there same question can be asked wrt Navy's p8s and other equipment. As said earlier, Navy sense most likely amongst services to work with the US. I think that's partly because it is primarily focused on the challenge from China. This is a common interest with the US.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 03 Sep 2019 20:09

Cain-ji, there are serious budgetary issues that I highlighted in the Indian Naval Aviation thread. A decision on 57 naval fighters is not going to happen in the next ten years and that is not an exaggeration. The MoD will gladly drag this process for as long as they want.

Naval Chiefs will come and go. Naval Chiefs will plead for 57 carrier borne fighters. Naval Chiefs will plead for a minimum of three aircraft carriers. And it will all fall on deaf ears.

And in a decades time, the Naval Tejas Mk2 will be well on her way and the IN may have a change of heart. Regardless, I do not see either the F-18 Block III or the Rafale M flying in Indian Naval colours. There is no money.

Do not equate that because the IN works the closest with the US, that somehow translates into F-18 Block III.

If there is anything that Donald Trump has taught the world, is that the United States is the most unreliable and untrustworthy ally to have. Buy what is needed, but keep the Americans at an arms length. Donald Trump will not be President forever and the next President will likely be a Democratic one (basically the establishment). What is the guarantee that the one succeeding the Democratic President will not be DT 2.0?

57 carrier borne fighters are going to be around for the next 40+ years in the Indian Navy and will represent the tip of the spear of Indian Naval Aviation. I do not see India handing that over to the whims and fancies of the American political system for that length of time. A reliable and proven platform the F-18 no doubt is, but the same cannot be said of the American political system. It is a messed up system. The checks and balances created by the Founding Fathers are now being used to avenge political vendettas.

Both sides - Democrat and Republican - have become the Party of NO!

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 03 Sep 2019 20:32

And sanctioning spare parts of Sea King Mk 42s (during the Clinton Administration) is not the same as sanctioning F-16s (Pressler Amendment). Yes it hurt the IN, but who in the IN talks about it now? Pakistan still whines about the 28 F-16s from the 1990s. A wound that was somewhat glossed over with the delivery of 18 F-16 Block 50/52s to the PAF.

It does not have the same effect. Same will be true for sanctioning P-8Is, C-130s, C-17s, CH-47s and AH-64s.

To the aam junta, none of the above equals = F-18.

Folks on BRF still talk about how the Tejas office in the US (@ Lockheed Martin I believe) was shut down due to the Pokharan sanctions. More than 20 years ago! Now it is hilariously ironic when Lockheed Martin now states that they are eager to assist in Tejas development, as long as they win the 114 MRFA contract.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 03 Sep 2019 20:51

And oh yes, the US Navy have themselves proved - with elan! - that the Rafale M is interoperable with their carrier battle group. Not that there is any money for Rafale M, but just saying.

Indian Navy carriers - theoretically operating the Rafale M - will be just as equally effective, as if they were operating F-18 Super Hornets. Interoperability and China Threat are just "excuse" words for the American MIC to make money.

French, U.S. Naval Aviators Learn to Work Together Ahead of Middle East Deployment
https://news.usni.org/2018/04/30/33210

“They’re actually going to plug and play into our airwing like they’re a U.S. squadron,” McCall said. “They’re going to integrate into our air plans and our methodologies out aboard the ship. They’re going land like we land, they’re going to come aboard the ship like we do, they’re going fly the same cycle times we do.”

Flying with and sparring against the Rafale in exercises have been extremely valuable for the F/A-18E Super Hornet pilots in Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 31, squadron commander Cmdr. Kevin Chlan told USNI News. Usually his squadron practices against other Super Hornets, but he said it’s been interesting learning how the French tackle missions, arriving at the same end result but using different tactics that draw on the Rafale’s strengths. “The Rafale is an impressive aircraft,” Chlan said. “When you go up and fight against it, it’s a little rocket ship.”

Prithwiraj
BRFite
Posts: 175
Joined: 21 Dec 2016 18:48

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Prithwiraj » 03 Sep 2019 21:18

I have asked many times this questions--- post the fire in INS Shivalik --- have we seen it back in action? We had numerous exercises and photo-ops post that incident - but sister ships of same class was present but not Shivalik itself...

Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1437
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Sumeet » 04 Sep 2019 03:45

Rakesh wrote:If there is anything that Donald Trump has taught the world, is that the United States is the most unreliable and untrustworthy ally to have. Buy what is needed, but keep the Americans at an arms length. Donald Trump will not be President forever and the next President will likely be a Democratic one (basically the establishment). What is the guarantee that the one succeeding the Democratic President will not be DT 2.0?

57 carrier borne fighters are going to be around for the next 40+ years in the Indian Navy and will represent the tip of the spear of Indian Naval Aviation. I do not see India handing that over to the whims and fancies of the American political system for that length of time. A reliable and proven platform the F-18 no doubt is, but the same cannot be said of the American political system. It is a messed up system. The checks and balances created by the Founding Fathers are now being used to avenge political vendettas.

Both sides - Democrat and Republican - have become the Party of NO!


I will prefer Rafale-M, Navalized LCA Mk2, Navalized AMCA & Ghatak UCAV combo with mix of Desi and select french/israeli weapons. Let's hit 5T economy mark in next 5-8 years and then we can order Rafale-M at Rafale F5 standard.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2100
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 04 Sep 2019 04:09

Prithwiraj wrote:I have asked many times this questions--- post the fire in INS Shivalik --- have we seen it back in action? We had numerous exercises and photo-ops post that incident - but sister ships of same class was present but not Shivalik itself...

Union Defence Minister Rajnath Singh visits frontline stealth frigate INS Shivalik
http://www.uniindia.com/union-defence-m ... 49125.html

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7037
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby nachiket » 04 Sep 2019 05:26

chola wrote:IN Chief says we need carriers in alarming tone.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/china-planning-10-aircraft-carriers-we-need-at-least-3-navy-chief/amp_articleshow/70864740.cms
NEW DELHI: Raising an alarm over the ongoing expansion of the Chinese Navy that will rapidly add warships to its fleet in the next decade, navy chief Admiral Karambir Singh said India requires at least three aircraft carriers to meet operational needs in the region.


Matching Cheen carrier for carrier is a futile attempt considering our economic realities. The IN should look at countering not only their carriers but increasing numbers of surface ships and subs in the most cost effective way possible.

Start with larger orders of a single class of vessel instead of piddly 3-ships each. Avoid pie-in-the-sky procurement attempts like SSK's with Brahmos VLS which hamstrung the P-75I acquisition for years. More ASW corvettes and helos are also the need of the hour. The best way to counter Chinese aerial threat due to their carriers would be to invest in more submarines and destroyers with a large anti-air loadout. Having only 32 SAMs on a nearly 8000t ship will not do anymore.

Meanwhile, start a minimal (as far as possible) redesign of the Vikrant class to fix the problem of the elevator size and build a follow on INS Vishal which can operate aircraft besides the Mig-29K. All this can be done for a much lower cost than spending gigantic amounts on a 65000 tonne white elephant with EMALS and all the other bells and whistles.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3726
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 04 Sep 2019 07:27

Adm Rakeshji, I see your point and have in the past also raised the same issues. However, I think that the Modi govt is quite tight with the US, even more so than the previous administration's. and by and large things are being sorted out. Take for example comcasa. Despite the CAATSA hoopla, the s400 has gone through without much nose. as well other deals with Russia including chakra 3. Note also that the US has consistentlyy been India's support in international fora in recent times. A deal wrt Afghanistan and pok is the long shot goal IMHO if this GOI.

Of course this is speculation and I'm not sure how such a CBG deal would work out but my guess is that it will be along the lines of the russki model BOGO free. Buy the shornets and the used carrier is included. End user restrictions will not be much of an issue so long as strategic interests converge. In any case India's carrier force is hardly Pak centric. A single cbg will be enough to give India a massive edge vs The Paki Navy. Otoh, India could use an extra cbg or two to maintain vigilance and an upper hand over Chinese carriers in the IOR, at least that's my guess as to the Navys desire for a larger CV. And probably to cause great khujli to the Chinese by sending a CBG for joint exercises with partners in the ECS/SCS.

As far as money is concerned, such a deal would be much cheaper than buying everything new. In any case, GOI will open the purse strings for a lot of the big ticket purchases now ...Rafales, Apaches, shornets. P75 ityadi under some kind of MII umbrella. Expect lines to hum along and jobs to be created in this sector. this is not the 90s as we can make out from the check written by the RBI recently. Nor is it the UPA.

Ultimately, it would all depend upon the assurances received and given.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5037
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Karthik S » 04 Sep 2019 09:43

If IN wants to go for fighters let it be Rafale please. I mean didn't F variants and Rafale compete in MRCA competition? I have same PoV as Rakesh sir wrt to geo politics as well. I consider even AH 64 and P8 as risky buys. OK we may bot have an alternative for P8 in that case makes sense to go with it. But in navy's fighters requirements not sure if we need to take thr risk.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2133
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vivek K » 04 Sep 2019 11:18

^^^^^I hope you’re wrong! IN cannot afford white elephants at $250 million a pop. Rather go for NLCA!!

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20051
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 04 Sep 2019 12:02

Wanting a large CV is akin to the old kids boast of my d*ck is bigger than yours."Keeping up with the Jones' " attitude. The Chinese require several CVs to counter their main enemy the US in the Pacific and break out of the so- called first island chain , the Indo- China Sea ringed with hostile nations.It's why they're trying to acquire a long- lease of Cambodian coastline for the PLAN beyond the ICS. The breaking into the IOR will be better done by its fleet of subs, more difficult to detect while using Paki ports and other IOR logistic bases in littoral countries.Any large surface task force has to pass through the choke points.The fate of the imperial Japanese navy in the battle of Leyte Gulf where US subs took their toll in the chokepoints is something to remember well. The IN operating 3 med. sized carriers, plus 3-4 air capable smphibs will be sufficient number to deal with a crisis on either seaboard also using our lsnd based aircraft.

We can tackle any Chin CBG ingressing into the IOR using air power equipped with B' Mos and Nirbhay missiles.A fleet/ sqd. of supersonic Backfires will play havoc with a CBG, apart from our peninsula and island/ ANC based MKIs.Add to that wolf packs of subs at the ready to deal with surface and sub- surface intruders will make it a " Chinese take- away" for the IN.

Tackling a dozen or so PLAN subs already operating in the IOR using Paki or littoral bases will be a different matter.They could mine the approaches to our major naval bases and ports. The recent intrusion into our EEZ by a sophisticated Chi spy ship indicates mischief afoot. Therefore the thrust of the IN today should be augmenting and increasing the number of subs to at least 36+ with two lines of conv. AIP subs , both western and eastern for SSK and SSG tasks.12 SSBNs/ SSNs as well.A goodly number of LRMP aircraft could augment ASW operations on the surface and below.

Apart from subs, our surface fleet should improve its ASW warfare capabilities and all major CG vessels to have a degree of ASW/ MCM capability too.The lack of any dedicated MCMs at the moment is bewildering and a blot on the IN/ MODs copybook, which must be attended too on an emergency basis acquiring a number such vessels as ready imports . The $15B that would cost for a large CV with its air complement, etc. could be more wisely spent on the above varied requirements instead.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2074
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Vips » 04 Sep 2019 20:29

Per a Defence AV on youtube, INS Khanderi has completed acceptance trials and is to be inducted on Sep 28th and the first P17 A frigate to be also launched on the same day.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20051
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 05 Sep 2019 08:44

One more early next yr. will make 3 in service.A decision will have to be taken about building a few more but even these non- AIP boats cost a bomb in comparison with other western boats and far cheaper Ru boats.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3753
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby chola » 05 Sep 2019 14:37

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I am already imagining the maintenance nightmare this will end up as. Please no more used aircraft carriers.

After Vikrant (ex-Hercules), Viraat (ex-Hermes) and Vikramaditya (ex-Gorshkov)....please no more.

Just go with new build (Make in India) vessels.

But I thought only russkis provide rust buckets, no? What news of the Jalashwa? Is it performing up to expectations?

But this idea is nothing new and has come about before. However the tea leaves say the same thing.... The naval 57 birds will likely go to the US, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea.


Sir, as the article say, it would be a bridge between the Vikrant and the Vishal. We would use the US carriers to train and build up a CAT experienced crew.

I can guarantee you that the Kitty Hawk or Kennedy will be magnitudes of order better than the repurposed helicopter cruiser that is the Gorshkov. These are full-sized fleet carriers of 85K tons that we've never had. These things could carry up to 90 aircraft. It would be equivalent to three or four Vikramaditya.

But again, if we were on pace with an Indian carrier program then we would not need them. But as of now there is no clear plan for the Vishal. A lend lease would be worth thinking about .

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2100
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 05 Sep 2019 21:58


Start with larger orders of a single class of vessel instead of piddly 3-ships each. Avoid pie-in-the-sky procurement attempts like SSK's with Brahmos VLS which hamstrung the P-75I acquisition for years. More ASW corvettes and helos are also the need of the hour. The best way to counter Chinese aerial threat due to their carriers would be to invest in more submarines and destroyers with a large anti-air loadout. Having only 32 SAMs on a nearly 8000t ship will not do anymore.


We are not going to see more than 32 Barak-8 SAMs in P-17x or P-15x class of vessels in foreseeable future for reasons below. I am specifically saying Barak-8 because there is chance 40 Sr-SAM are fitted on P-17a/P-15b for point defense engagements.

- Lack of standardized VLS; currently there is Russian UVLS (Brahmos and klub), L&T VLS (Brahmos), Barak-8 launcher, Vl Shtil launcher for new set of Talwars, Barak-1 launcher and potentially SR-SAM launcher ( uses Vl-mica launcher?).

Instead of fitting let’s say 48-64 mk41 type launcher that can fire Brahmos, dual-quad pack Barak-8 and potentially even fire Anti submarine missile. We been mixing multiple launchers increases complexity, reduces space (cannot different launchers closer together) and end result allows far less payload.

- Limitations of P-15 limit how many VLS cells that can be fitted in this design (not much can be carried in the aft or amidship). I suggested a stretched P-17a for future ddg design.

- Rbu-6000 we have discussed it to death about their effectiveness but removing that can allow one or two VLS module of Barak-8.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Sep 2019 03:28

Cain Marko wrote:Adm Rakeshji, I see your point and have in the past also raised the same issues. However, I think that the Modi govt is quite tight with the US, even more so than the previous administration's. and by and large things are being sorted out. Take for example comcasa. Despite the CAATSA hoopla, the s400 has gone through without much noise. as well other deals with Russia including chakra 3. Note also that the US has consistently been India's support in international fora in recent times. A deal wrt Afghanistan and pok is the long shot goal IMHO if this GOI.

If the Modi Govt was really that close with the US, they should have just signed the vanilla CISMOA agreement no? Why create an India specific one called COMCASA?

With the CAATSA hoopla, then Defence Minister Sitharaman had to point blank tell the US that India is a sovereign nation and the S-400 is a much needed purchase. Still, the US is trying every trick in the book to dissuade India from acquiring the S-400. From THAAD to F-35 and what not else.

The only deal on Afghanistan that is happening and will actually see the light of day, is Pakistan getting control of Afghanistan's affairs. Trump desperately wants out of there (and if it is prior to the 2020 elections, then all the more better) and if Pakistan is the nation that can deliver that to him, then he will gladly hand Afghanistan to them.

Cain Marko wrote:Of course this is speculation and I'm not sure how such a CBG deal would work out but my guess is that it will be along the lines of the russki model BOGO free. Buy the shornets and the used carrier is included. End user restrictions will not be much of an issue so long as strategic interests converge. In any case India's carrier force is hardly Pak centric. A single cbg will be enough to give India a massive edge vs The Paki Navy. Otoh, India could use an extra cbg or two to maintain vigilance and an upper hand over Chinese carriers in the IOR, at least that's my guess as to the Navys desire for a larger CV. And probably to cause great khujli to the Chinese by sending a CBG for joint exercises with partners in the ECS/SCS.

I thought negotiations on the lend-lease had begun. I read the link from the previous page on this thread and it turned out to be an opinion piece. Till then, this is just a pipe dream.

As per wiki chacha, as of late 2017, both the Kitty Hawk and the John F Kennedy are scheduled for scrapping. If the GOI indeed wants this, then they will have to move fast. Otherwise this will end up like the C-17 episode.

Cain Marko wrote:As far as money is concerned, such a deal would be much cheaper than buying everything new. In any case, GOI will open the purse strings for a lot of the big ticket purchases now ...Rafales, Apaches, shornets. P75 ityadi under some kind of MII umbrella. Expect lines to hum along and jobs to be created in this sector. this is not the 90s as we can make out from the check written by the RBI recently. Nor is it the UPA.

Apart from a follow on order of two more Rafale units, the GOI is not likely going to open the purse strings for anything else.

MII for Defence has been a failure. Too many bureaucratic hurdles to jump through. The Indian Economy is facing an uphill climb.

Why Narendra Modi government must acknowledge the economic slowdown. Now.
https://www.indiatoday.in/news-analysis ... lk_of_town

Cain Marko wrote:Ultimately, it would all depend upon the assurances received and given.

Assurances from the US are not even worth the paper it is written on.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3726
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Sep 2019 03:47

The nuclear deal seems to have worked out well enough for India right? So why not similar give and take on other issues. If cismoa can be made into comcasa, why not other deals be struck?

Btw, what is current situation with CAATSA? Nobody seems to be really complaining?

Frankly, if India can get a used CV or even two at a decent friendship lease price, I don't see why it shouldn't deal with with the States. Hell maybe even operate rafales although I think the shornet will be cheaper. Manufacture a good 126 of these and let the Navy fly. Do that for 10+ years and induct a larger Vishal in that time.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Sep 2019 03:50

I find it ironic that the author talks about the Vikramaditya being over 45 years old, but conveniently forgets to mention that the Kitty Hawk is nearly 60 years old and the John F Kennedy is 51 years old!

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Sep 2019 03:57

Cain Marko wrote:The nuclear deal seems to have worked out well enough for India right? So why not similar give and take on other issues. If cismoa can be made into comcasa, why not other deals be struck?

Btw, what is current situation with CAATSA? Nobody seems to be really complaining?

Frankly, if India can get a used CV or even two at a decent friendship lease price, I don't see why it shouldn't deal with with the States. Hell maybe even operate rafales although I think the shornet will be cheaper. Manufacture a good 126 of these and let the Navy fly. Do that for 10+ years and induct a larger Vishal in that time.

Saar, one would assume that since Boeing (like Dassault) is eager to win the contest for 57 carrier borne fighters....this lend-lease agreement theory would have cropped up much, much earlier by Boeing or the US Govt itself. We are now nearing the end of the third quarter of 2019. Who knows in what material state the Kitty Hawk or the John F Kennedy is in. Perhaps brar may know the answer to that one.

CAATSA is silent now because the S-400 deliveries have not begun for India. The usual noise will start once that date gets closer.

If a used CV does come from the US, no Rafale M is coming. It will be the F-18 onlee. And the Navy does not need 126 of them, only 57. Assuming the Navy gets the money for 57.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Sep 2019 04:02

Either the MoD gives in to the Navy's demand for the bells-and-whistles aircraft carrier (EMALS, 65,000+ ton, nuclear power, etc) or the Navy opts for a larger Vikrant Class vessel. The MoD is not even willing to entertain the Navy's suggestion of a smaller vessel (50,000 ton). One of the two parties have to give way. And seeing who holds the purse strings in North Block, I do not see the Navy getting its wish anytime soon.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3726
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Sep 2019 04:05

Rakesh wrote:Saar, one would assume that since Boeing (like Dassault) is eager to win the contest for 57 carrier borne fighters....this lend-lease agreement theory would have cropped up much, much earlier by Boeing or the US Govt itself. We are now nearing the end of the third quarter of 2019. Who knows in what material state the Kitty Hawk or the John F Kennedy is in. Perhaps brar may know the answer to that one.

CAATSA is silent now because the S-400 deliveries have not begun for India. The usual noise will start once that date gets closer.

If a used CV does come from the US, no Rafale M is coming. It will be the F-18 onlee. And the Navy does not need 126 of them, only 57. Assuming the Navy gets the money for 57.

Admiralji,

I recently read something about USN wanting to bring the kittyhawk out of retirement. It has been mothballed and seemingly viable to bring it back. I'll see if I can dig up the story. There is also chatter about early retirement of Truman, which would be a better deal.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 06 Sep 2019 04:11, edited 1 time in total.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Sep 2019 04:10

Is it this? Guess this is why the idea never took off!

US Navy looking at bringing retired carrier USS Kitty Hawk out of mothballs
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/1 ... -mothballs
08 June 2017

The ships are vastly outdated compared to their active counterparts, and would take serious money to get them even close to their fleet counterparts standard. Not just that, but they have been cannibalized for spare parts in recent years. Moore says: "Most of those ships, from a combat systems perspective, are pretty obsolete...We probably wouldn’t bring them back and they’ve kind of been spare-parts lockers the last couple of years."

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3726
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Sep 2019 04:13

Yeah I think that was the one. Guess it's a bit dated....

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7767
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Rakesh » 06 Sep 2019 04:14

A conventionally powered aircraft carrier like the Kitty Hawk or the John F Kennedy might pass muster with the US Govt.

The nuclear powered USS Harry Truman? No way! They will not even lend that vessel to their closest poodle, the UK.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20051
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 06 Sep 2019 07:04

The US is facing embarrassing problems with its latest CV.Manufacturing defects affecting its op. status- returns to port for machinery repairs, etc.EMALS and arrestor wire glitches too.This has increased costs a lot with Qs being asked on the hill. Trying to bring alive mothballed, cannibalised flat-tops is going to be mighty expensive, why even the laudable plan to get the battlewagons upgraded for its unmatched gunfire support and extra missiles aboard too, has come a cropper.Add to carrier costs of ops the cost of providing its escort warships, a sub and fleet tankers, the rest of the fleet would possibly have to stay in port with thd current defence and naval budget !

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1096
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Nikhil T » 10 Sep 2019 12:08

INS Khanderi to be commissioned, first P17A frigate to be launched on Sep 28

ndian Navy's second Scorpene class submarine INS Khanderi will be commissioned on September 28, 2019, while a stealth guided-missile frigate under Project P-17A which is a follow-up of the Shivalik class (Project 17 class) will be launched into the sea for trials. The first submarine of the Scorpene class is INS Kalvari which was commissioned into the Indian Navy on December 14, 2017.

Another four Scorpene Class diesel-electric attack submarines are under different stages of construction. The submarines have been designed by French company Naval Group (formerly DCNS) and manufactured at Mumbai's Mazagon Dock Limited.

The attack submarines can travel at 37 kilometres per hour (20 knots) while their speed on the surface is 20 kmph (11 knots). They can cover a distance of 12,000km (6480 nautical miles).


INS Khanderi displaces 1,615 tonnes on surface and 1,775 tonnes when submerged. The 67.5 metres long INS Khanderi is powered by four MTU 12V 396 SE84 diesel engines and 360 battery cells and can remain on patrol for 50 days at a stretch at a depth of 350m. The submarine will have eight officers and 35 sailors. It will be armed with 18 SUT torpedoes which can be fired from six tubes, sea-skimming Exocet anti-ship missiles. It can also carry 30 anti-ship mines in place of torpedoes.

Apart from their primary role as an attack submarine, INS Khanderi and INS Kalvari along with their sister ships can also carry out reconnaissance (intelligence gathering as well as area surveillance/spying) missions and also lay anti-ship mines to target the enemy.

India had launched the Shivalik class stealth frigate programme in 2000 and commissioned three such warships - INS Shivalik ( commissioned April 29, 2010), INS Satpura (August 20, 2011) and INS Sahyadri (July 21. 2012). Indian Navy has ordered seven Project 17A class stealth frigates out of which four will be constructed in MDL and the remaining three at Kolkata's Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Ltd (GRSE).


The frigates of Project 17A class will have improved stealth features, better radar and weapons system. These frigates will carry BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles and Barak surface-to-air missiles. Their top speed is 52 kmph (28 knots) and they will also be able to carry two helicopters, which can be either HAL Dhruvs or Sea King Mk 42Bs. The maximum range of Project 17A frigates will be 10,200km (5,500 nautical miles) at 30-33 kmph (16-18 knots).

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1096
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Nikhil T » 10 Sep 2019 12:15

GRSE had promised cutting P17A construction to commissioning time from 7-8 yrs during P17 to 4-5 yrs by using modular building techniques. It’s taken them 2 yrs to launch, similar to P17, seems unlikely they would be able to meet their deadline.

Although, we can’t just blame shipbuilding time - it took MoD and IN 7 years just to sign the contract after DAC approval, because of IN’s insistence on manufacturing two frigates abroad.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7732
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 10 Sep 2019 18:29

Rakesh wrote:Is it this? Guess this is why the idea never took off!

US Navy looking at bringing retired carrier USS Kitty Hawk out of mothballs
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/1 ... -mothballs
08 June 2017


That was a budget trick and not really a serious idea.


Of-topic part deleted

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20051
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Philip » 10 Sep 2019 19:39

Off-topic post deleted

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2100
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby John » 10 Sep 2019 19:51

Nikhil T wrote:GRSE had promised cutting P17A construction to commissioning time from 7-8 yrs during P17 to 4-5 yrs by using modular building techniques. It’s taken them 2 yrs to launch, similar to P17, seems unlikely they would be able to meet their deadline.

Although, we can’t just blame shipbuilding time - it took MoD and IN 7 years just to sign the contract after DAC approval, because of IN’s insistence on manufacturing two frigates abroad.

I would not compare the launch times to P-17 since latter wasn't even 50% complete at launch, if it is similar construction process then you may have a point hopefully not. We will know in couple weeks.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7732
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby brar_w » 10 Sep 2019 19:55

Off-topic post deleted


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: srin, TushS and 56 guests