Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 08 Sep 2019 18:53

Wait for the order to be reported on MOD site, it will have the correct numbers. The follow on order was for 7 squadrons planned. Could have been reduced to remain in budget. SSridhar, that's a very interesting factoid, we had 30 odd Squadrons of Pechora. 16 Akash to replace them. That leaves 14 squadrons. 9 are coming from MRSAM. And leaves 5 squadrons from S400. There we have it, the entire IAF SAM Orbat per plan without increasing the squadron numbers. Right, now there's a gap of 1-2 squadrons. And we are upgrading a few SA3 units, should account for the overlap, difference.

Manish_Sharma wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Sometime in c.2015, IAF said it wanted 16 more squadrons of Akash to completely replace the SA-3/Pechora. These six are part of the 16?


This report is talking of total 15 squadrons:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 994088.cms

The three-year-old proposal for the acquisition of the Akash missiles is being seen as the whole-hearted acceptance of the indigenous missile system among the armed forces as this clearance would increase the number of Akash systems ordered for the Indian Air Force to 15, the sources said.
The initial order for the Akash by the Indian Air Force was for two squadrons and the increased orders show the faith it has in the system, they said.

During an exercise in Surya Lanka held last year, the Akash missile system was tested along with all other air defence missiles including Israeli ones in the Indian Air Force inventory and it came out as the best performer.
Akash missile has been chosen by the Defence Ministry over foreign systems also as the government scrapped an Army tender worth over Rs 17,000 crore to favour the Akash.

The missile proposal has been cleared for the Air Force after the service felt the need for more such weapon systems in wake of the February 27 post-Balakot strike scenario when Pakistanis has launched a counter-attack.
With more Akash systems on the ground, next time Pakistan tries anything like this, it will have to face the ground-based missiles also along with the air defence fighters.


^ This article talks of 15 Squadrons

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 08 Sep 2019 18:57

In fact, IAF should keep the SA3 units around as a strategic reserve for as long as possible. Their UHF radars offer good capability against VLO threats due to bands used.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 08 Sep 2019 19:13

One important aspect that IAF would consider is that, in future our airbases would be subjected to saturation attacks with CM & PGM, specially by the Chinese.

In this scenario, QRSAM with AESA and larger number of on station rounds provides a better solution to deal with it, over Akash. I won't be surprised, if this effect's Akash purchase numbers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Philip » 08 Sep 2019 20:33

Even old systems have their uses in the missiles still have operational life in them.Coupled to newer systems and more modern radar networks, these missiles would add to numbers.Some may have also been upgraded.With the advent of PGMs and cruise missiles too, numbers need to be increased for AD not simply replaced on a one'for'ond basis.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Sep 2019 00:09

^^karan but the orbat size of 30 is it in light of the old capabilities or new capabilities..i would expect Akash to be in a different league than pechora..
on a slightly different note i havent heard much about Akash 2..Is it just me who thinks that the govt wants to take the challenge of production/operationalization of the products before chasing the next round of development.
would be great to hear your thoughts on this..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2019 01:38

Think like an IAF guy who thinks MOD files are black cats. He wants to avoid them. :mrgreen:

Basically, the IAF would want to ensure the new eqpt is added to existing Orbat w/zero fuss and no additional proposals to MOD. It's in that vein, I noted the squadron numbers matched up.

Akash Mk2 exists, is funded, is in the works. Your guess as good as mine, how this can be added to existing Orbat without raising new squadrons. My estimate is they will have to be. Leaving that aside, DRDO can go two ways for Akash Mk2. Iterative, I.e. new missiles but leave rest of the system untouched (50km missiles can still be guided in by Rajendra), or new architecture system. My personal wish would be DRDO replaces Barak8 w/Akash2, similar range/capability so we dont hand over our money to Israel via the radar, radar seekers (even if assembled locally) etc. But it's more likely DRDO will go for a 50km ranged system unless IAF points this out, or IAF understands this issue and fixes it..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2019 01:56

nam wrote:One important aspect that IAF would consider is that, in future our airbases would be subjected to saturation attacks with CM & PGM, specially by the Chinese.

In this scenario, QRSAM with AESA and larger number of on station rounds provides a better solution to deal with it, over Akash. I won't be surprised, if this effect's Akash purchase numbers.


Akash purchase numbers cant be affected, because Akash has already been ordered and maxed out. 14-15 squadrons for IAF, 4x IA regiments. That's it. More orders will be for other SAM systems.

That apart, QRSAMs architecture is three Battery Command Posts w/Surveillance radars. Each Battery with 4 Combat groups, a 6 round launcher, Battery MF radar. In contrast, the Akash squadron has two batteries. Each Battery has 12 missiles guided by a single radar. So technically the QRSAM can handle multi-axis attacks better.

However, dont forget the altitude limitation. The QRSAM can handle targets flying at 6km, not more. The Akash goes up to 15km in altitude. This is a key difference which would mean the IAF would use a QRSAM type system as a replacement for an OSA-AK type of system, not the Akash itself. The reason being you dont want your primary base defence missile (in case there are no MR/LRSAMs around) unable to deal with targets at 25km lobbing PGMs.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 09 Sep 2019 04:25

However, dont forget the altitude limitation. The QRSAM can handle targets flying at 6km, not more.


Source for this that seems to be big limitations. Even OSA have ceiling of 12km.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Philip » 09 Sep 2019 10:14

Akash-NG is said to be the follow- on to the programme with the range extended to 50km and a new solid fuel rocket motor instead of the exg. ramjet.This will complement the B-8 MRSAM which has a reported range from 30 to 70+km. Most manufacturers develop some SAMs from.AAMs, with much commonality.Having already developed Aastra, an Aastra SAM could be another development as the AAM version is on the cusp of induction with the IAF. A naval SAM variant could also be developed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Sep 2019 11:44

One small correction, I think Akash can engage targets upto 18KM Altitude as per publicly disclosed specs

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pushkar.bhat » 09 Sep 2019 18:46

Karan M wrote:In fact, IAF should keep the SA3 units around as a strategic reserve for as long as possible. Their UHF radars offer good capability against VLO threats due to bands used.


I say just convert the old Missiles into Rockets and line them up against Lahore or Sialkot or the nearest Paki Cantt you get. If the ballon goes up let tem off like Stalin's Organs.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2019 01:08

Karan M wrote:https://www.deccanherald.com/national/no-imports-on-radars-sonars-in-5-years-drdo-chief-760227.html

No imports on radars, sonars in 5 years: DRDO Chief

The new systems include Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft – the twin-engine medium weight fighter aircraft with 5th generation technologies, unmanned combat aerial, next-generation battle tanks, air-borne warning and control systems and high endurance UAV
Among the missiles, the aim is to develop naval anti-ship missiles and long-range hypersonic cruise missiles. Among the sensors and electronic warfare systems, R&D on very long-range radar, over-the-horizon radar, quantum radar and sensors suite for submarines are being undertaken. In the propulsion and engine field, high thrust aero engine, Wheeled vehicle engine with 1500 horse power and 600 hp are being developed. In the next 4-8 years, we should have prototypes and initial trials ...

We received further orders on Aakash and concluded the user trials for Nag anti-tank missile, which will be inducted soon. The Helina trials will be completed this year whereas the trials for the MPATGM will be finished next year. The trials are also going on for Stand-off anti-tank missile. Other future missile programs include Akash NG, MRSAM for Army, VL-Astra, AAM-Astra MK-II, ASM-Rudra-M and naval anti-ship missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 10 Sep 2019 01:32

ARDE is developing an 80 mm Air to surface rockets.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 10 Sep 2019 02:09

Indranil wrote:ARDE is developing an 80 mm Air to surface rockets.


Laser guided?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 10 Sep 2019 02:33

No. Looks unguided.

Tandem warhead: precursor capable of defeating ERA and main charge capable of piercing 350 mm armour plates.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 10 Sep 2019 02:56

So its to supplement 68mm SNEB rockets?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Sep 2019 06:56

Does VL Astra fill in the shoes of Maitri program?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ashishvikas » 10 Sep 2019 10:59

Even the baseline Akash SAM has demonstrated counter-PGM capability having successfully intercepted SPICE 2000 glide bombs during acceptance trials as revealed by @DRDO_India.

DRDO says that it can intercept targets at altitudes as low as 30 metres.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1171285263059808257

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 10 Sep 2019 11:27

Thakur_B wrote:Does VL Astra fill in the shoes of Maitri program?


Yes, I think this is the SRSAM program.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 10 Sep 2019 16:39

^^ is SRSAM meant as SpyDer/Barak-1 replacement..??

With ASTRA MK2 and later SFDR we can have very effective SAM with high Pk due to better end game kinematics. Also commonality would help reduce cost and logistics overhead for the Forces.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kartik » 11 Sep 2019 03:39

As per Jane's sources, at least some of these Akash SAM systems will be the new Akash 1S with RF seeker.

IAF to acquire additional Akash SAM systems- Janes

The Indian federal government has approved the procurement of six additional squadrons of the Akash surface-to-air (SAM) missile system for the Indian Air Force (IAF) for INR55 billion (USD767.7 million).

Senior Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials said on 5 September that the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had sanctioned in late August the acquisition of more units of the indigenously developed system, with a contract for 550-600 Akash missiles expected to be signed "imminently" with state-owned company Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL).


BDL is the principal integrator of the 5.8-m long Akash missile, which is fitted with a 55-60 kg high-explosive pre-fragmented warhead and is stated to be capable of engaging multiple aerial targets such as combat aircraft and assorted missile systems up to a 25-30 km range.

The system's locally designed electronics and Rajendra 3D phased array multifunctional fire-control radar are produced by public-sector company Bharat Electronics Limited, while private manufacturers Larsen & Toubro and Tata Power SED provide its tracked and wheeled launchers.

Military sources said that at least some of the new missiles will be fitted with a new, indigenously designed radio-frequency seeker that was successfully tested in December 2017 in an effort to improve accuracy.


The new Akash systems will supplement two Akash squadrons that were formally inducted into the IAF in July 2015 to replace the ageing Soviet-era S-125M Pechora-M (SA-3B Goa), 9K33 Osa (SA-8 Gecko), and 9K38 Igla (SA-18 Grouse) air-defence systems.

While these two squadrons are deployed almost entirely in static roles to provide security to IAF bases, the new Akash systems will be based along India's borders with Pakistan and China to counter aerial threats, military sources told Jane's .



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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srai » 11 Sep 2019 13:25

^^^

They missed the second order in their report.

* 2 squadrons (I think these were Gwalior and Pune)

* 6 squadrons (some were deployed NE)

* 6-7 squadrons (current order in process)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 11 Sep 2019 17:05

ashishvikas wrote:Even the baseline Akash SAM has demonstrated counter-PGM capability having successfully intercepted SPICE 2000 glide bombs during acceptance trials as revealed by @DRDO_India.

DRDO says that it can intercept targets at altitudes as low as 30 metres.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1171285263059808257

That's something a command guided missile should have no trouble accomplishing, however there capability will be limited when it comes to intercepting maneuvering low flying missile. The latency will greatly reduce engagement range and need to maintain los could reduce hit probability in urban environments.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nash » 11 Sep 2019 19:39

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1171745597247938565
Vayu Aerospace Review
@ReviewVayu
The handsome Karanjit, Country Head, NAMMO India, shows us around the company's stand and displays. The showstopper is a new weapon system with a 400+ km range. No details are available but if you enlarge the glass panel, you'll be able to figure some things!!!


It has artillery projectiles range from 40Km to 400km+. This type of thing can take care threats from both side of border especially from western side without crossing the border and with very much less cost and risk.

Relevant R&D institute should look into this kind of Technology.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prasad » 11 Sep 2019 20:38

It is a ramjet powered missile. Nothing fancy. You could turn the Akash into one and call it Pinaka 3 in a few years' time.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby manoj_niketa » 11 Sep 2019 20:47

Successful test firing of the Man Portable Anti Tank Guided Missile system by DRDO from a firing range in Kurnool, Andhra Pradesh, today.
https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1171798936010600448

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rakesh » 11 Sep 2019 21:24

https://twitter.com/indiatubedesk/statu ... 9513948161 ---> A 50 sample order of Astra BVRAAM iscurrently being manufactured by BEL. The IAF is planning to place a fresh order for the Astra missile by end of this year or early 2020 for at least 100 units. IAF will receive its batch of the indigenous BVR missile by this years end.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 11 Sep 2019 21:51

Prasad wrote:It is a ramjet powered missile. Nothing fancy. You could turn the Akash into one and call it Pinaka 3 in a few years' time.

No Akash Ramjet has limited burn time nor can it be throttled, it cannot have range of more than 30 km. Brahmos is different story.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Manish_Sharma » 11 Sep 2019 22:07

nash wrote:
https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1171745597247938565
Vayu Aerospace Review
@ReviewVayu
The handsome Karanjit, Country Head, NAMMO India, shows us around the company's stand and displays. The showstopper is a new weapon system with a 400+ km range. No details are available but if you enlarge the glass panel, you'll be able to figure some things!!!


It has artillery projectiles range from 40Km to 400km+. This type of thing can take care threats from both side of border especially from western side without crossing the border and with very much less cost and risk.

Relevant R&D institute should look into this kind of Technology.


Nammo missile system is from Norway IIRC it was discussed on brf around 2 years back :


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Anujan » 11 Sep 2019 22:08

Prasad wrote:It is a ramjet powered missile. Nothing fancy. You could turn the Akash into one and call it Pinaka 3 in a few years' time.


Seems to be a artillery shell with ramjet for range enhancement. Quite interesting. You don't need a first stage booster since it's an arty shell and will have enough velocity to ignite the ramjet engine. Arty shells with base bleed and rocket assists already exist. This seems to be an interesting variant of the idea.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 11 Sep 2019 22:50

How expensive is it?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 11 Sep 2019 22:50

John wrote:
That's something a command guided missile should have no trouble accomplishing, however there capability will be limited when it comes to intercepting maneuvering low flying missile. The latency will greatly reduce engagement range and need to maintain los could reduce hit probability in urban environments.


Depends. A CG missile may do better because the FCR is handling the signal processing, is also higher powered and is better against low RCS targets in clutter. The latency can be adjusted vis a vis high data refresh datalinks, and larger warheads (shrapnel kill vs hittile).

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 11 Sep 2019 22:53

Indranil wrote:How expensive is it?


And whether it's even been tested, in production. Apart from the fact that arty shells suffer higher G, launch variables than the average missile, so any guidance in the shell would have to be much more expensive as well, beyond GPS etc. Without guidance, dispersion as a % of range can be crazy.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 11 Sep 2019 23:06

Check out this concept tank-destroyer - collaboration between Poland & MBDA. Looks like what Namica could be, once we equip it with Helina & SANT.

I am curious how they packed 24 Brimstones in a BMP-2 carrier (same as Namica). Nag dimensions are similar to Brimstone and Namica carries only 12.

If we make Namica 2.0 carry 24 Helinas or SANTs, it will be a lethal tank-destroyer!

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a28928680/tank-destroyer-concept/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=twitter&src=socialflowTW&utm_campaign=socialflowTWPOP

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 11 Sep 2019 23:14

I hope the fresh Akash orders are for:

1) Maintaining a no-escape zone close to the border, to prevent any PAF counter to future surgical strikes by us
2) Protect other vital assets like the ammo dumps & Army brigade headquarters etc from glide bombs & cruise missiles

Hopefully, the post-Balakot response by PAF has lit some fire in the belly. The piecemeal orders of proven, deadly systems like the Akash has left us unnecessarily vulnerable.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Avinandan » 11 Sep 2019 23:14

ArjunPandit wrote:^^karan but the orbat size of 30 is it in light of the old capabilities or new capabilities..i would expect Akash to be in a different league than pechora..
on a slightly different note i havent heard much about Akash 2..Is it just me who thinks that the govt wants to take the challenge of production/operationalization of the products before chasing the next round of development.
would be great to hear your thoughts on this..


Pechora were supposed to be upgraded as per some news in 2016. Manohar Parrikar ji himself had told in some press conference then. Hasn't it progressed ? If yes, then how can these missiles complement Akash batteries ?

https://www.rbth.com/economics/defence/2016/06/16/india-upgrades-russian-military-equipment-at-own-plants_603499

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kartik » 11 Sep 2019 23:41

Prem Kumar wrote:Check out this concept tank-destroyer - collaboration between Poland & MBDA. Looks like what Namica could be, once we equip it with Helina & SANT.

I am curious how they packed 24 Brimstones in a BMP-2 carrier (same as Namica). Nag dimensions are similar to Brimstone and Namica carries only 12.

If we make Namica 2.0 carry 24 Helinas or SANTs, it will be a lethal tank-destroyer!

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a28928680/tank-destroyer-concept/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=twitter&src=socialflowTW&utm_campaign=socialflowTWPOP


12 per carrier with reloads is no small number either. 2-3 NAMICAs could put a stop to an armoured thrust by an entire squadron of Paki tanks. Besides, the images show 12 Brimstones, not 24. That is just concept art on an "unidentified" chassis. Not a BMP-1.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kartik » 11 Sep 2019 23:43

Image of the MPATGM from its latest test

Image

ANI Twitter link

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 11 Sep 2019 23:49

Not saying 12 is a small number. I was curious how they managed 24 (if that was indeed achieved). I realize its only a concept, while Namica is a ready-to-be-inducted system.

Funny part is that the Poles claim this is a 1st tank destroyer of its kind.

I hope there comes a Namica 2.0 with Helina & SANT, launched in LOAL mode and guided by a WSO sitting inside the vehicle. Pack-hunting using smart algorithms and busting tanks at a distance of 15 - 20 Km away! We are not that far away from this future.
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 11 Sep 2019 23:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kartik » 11 Sep 2019 23:49

Video of MPATGM hitting its target during its latest test

ANI Twitter link


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